Trying for Nationwide Crap Can class unity

[Flyinglizard]

SCCA is running the "Crapcans" under some ITJ rules. Before it gets too far. I have some guidelines based upon performance of the actual cars running in Chumpcar. This a one post on the Chumpcar forum,.

I have sent the rules, along with classes recommendations, to a few RE.
I have the 2.3 and under class as CCU- Includes the Ford Mustangs.
I wanted the 2.4 litre Nissan in the CCO class(2.4 - 3.1)6 Cyl- E 30,
Anything over 3.1, or a non stock power train,( swapped ,boosted etc ) is in CCX.
All 6 cyl E 36

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both. That is done on a one to one basis and needs some references . I have no trouble giving a solid reference for anyone that we have raced with in the SE. The SCCA racers that run with us may also.
I will not give a good reference for any driver that moves off line for a passing car, as that is unpredictable and unsafe. Taking a corner deep and giving up the apex with a point is fine.

The easier the cross over for the car and racers is good for the racers. The track time /cost will get more competitive as more groups try for the smaller amount of cash still left in our pockets . The sanctions that treats the customers the best will survive. That includes listening to bitchin and new ideas. Absurd aint it.

PS the safety values are a little higher than IT rules. Pretty much, any tubing inside the firewalls is legal. Sill tabs, A pillar tabs, are encouraged. Chumpcar still allows 1 PS door bar tho, for some reason. Against my recommendation.
No tubing past the wheel hubs either end, except for the little Hondas with no other room. This is to maintain the stock crush zones. Fire systems are mandated for 2014 .
Most of the cars run the stock fuel tank. I like a cell for any car with the stock tank within 20in of the rear bumper. But the rules dont specify that .MM

[Z3_GoCar]

The E-36 came with a 1.9l (CCU), a 2.5/2.8L (CCO) and the first year M3 was a 3.0L(CCO), the only E-36 that falls in CCX is the 96 and later M3's and they won't be competitive with anything with a LS-x.

[Flyinglizard]

Thanks. The E 30- 6 runs CCO, the E36-6 runs CCX.
The M44 and 42 cars are slow enough to run the CC class. Turn in nice tho.
Each class should also have a tire max, but Chump does not. maybe CCU 225, CCo, 245, CCX 275.
The Demoines region shows to have the ITJ and does Portland . But both websites are a little poor as far as finding any rules.

[JS154]

Thanks. The E 30- 6 runs CCO, the E36-6 runs CCX.
The M44 and 42 cars are slow enough to run the CC class. Turn in nice tho.
Each class should also have a tire max, but Chump does not. maybe CCU 225, CCo, 245, CCX 275.
The Demoines region shows to have the ITJ and does Portland . But both websites are a little poor as far as finding any rules.

It's crapcan as whole - call it ITJ and be done with it, don't overcomplicate it. Performance capabilites and crapcan shouldn't be in the same paragraph. besides, the idea is to give the drivers a place to run, it's not about the cars.

[Flyinglizard]

Chumpcar's lack of performance rules and car rules are why some of those teams are interested in SCCA.
Chumpcar came to start as a result of SCCA rules and regs, along with track time cost .( as well as down time over the weekend for 2hr of track time.This last part we will need to address in the future ).

So to address this large market ,we should address the shortcomings of Chump. ( AS chump has addressed the shortcomings of SCCA. )

1) Lack of classes, along with allowing the E 30 and 36 to race heads up with the little real 500$ cars .
The above classes address much of that. One class will not work for any long term . The little cars will stay home, as they are doing now in Chump.

2)lack of tire size rule, same result , big power can be applied .

There is a market for these cars with some loose rules to have a good time in SCCA.

They spend a lot of money to run Chump. Many teams would have a few races with SCCA. Many SCCA cars can run Chump also..

[MMiskoe]

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe bothAre you fucking high? Sorry, that might be a bit harsh, but it was my first reaction.

I tell people how great crap can racing is. I also tell them that all you need in order to go racing is to be able to walk up to the table w/ not too much assistance, show a drivers license that has a picture that you resemble and most importantly, kick over 50 bucks.

I don't mind racing against people who bought a license this way, but only when I'm driving another crap can car. I can't say I'm excited about going out to start a sprint race, or a long endurance race knowing that the guy next to me, or in front of me, has had exactly zero race starts to his/her credit. Remember that an SCCA license (or novice permit) allows you to go race anything from ITC to Formula Atlantic. A crap-can license allows you to drive a crap-can. They are slow, so it is easier to deal w/ poor driving.

The last Lemons race I did the car got hit at least 3 times in manners that were pretty unlikely to happen w/ people who had some track experience (always people coming in from way outside w/o looking to see that there was someone inside of them). We got sent home for too many trips to the penalty box that day yet we were the hit-ees. If that kind of driving starts happening at IT races, I'll move on to other things.

Do I sound pretty arrogant and elitist? I'm sure I do. But I doubt I'm alone.

The Idea of having nation wide rules stability is great. More cars means more competition. That is great. I don't see that there is much parity in crap-can these days. Anything we can do to get more people to show up w/ cars to race is a good thing. But I'm (obviously) leery of the licensing thing.

[Flyinglizard]

Lemons is not Chumpcar by a long shot. Many Chumpcar drivers have lots of tracktime and racing experience. We have never been hit in the 80+hrs of Chump racing. The drivers have been considerate and head up for the most part. Not a big difference From SCCA. Way less contact than SM or SRF.

[ShelbyRacer]

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both. That is done on a one to one basis and needs some references . I have no trouble giving a solid reference for anyone that we have raced with in the SE. The SCCA racers that run with us may also.
I will not give a good reference for any driver that moves off line for a passing car, as that is unpredictable and unsafe. Taking a corner deep and giving up the apex with a point is fine.



Remember that we already have provisions in place that allow the race school officials to waive a second school for reasons such as "prior racing experience". I don't think there's a need to give someone the automatic expectation that they'll be waivered in.

Your proposed automatic waiving of schools:
Driver comes in expecting to be waivered. "Goes thru the motions" during the school, as he/she knows it's just a formality. If they then perform poorly (due to lack of skill, or simply attitude and not taking it seriously), the school has two choices- pass the driver and hope for the best, or recommend a second school and piss that driver off to no end. If, during the school, they are "counseled" by instructors, it's not likely to be taken well, since they feel they'll just deal with this crap and let us collect our money to license them.

Current system:
We make it known that prior racing experience can be used as a basis for a waiver request. Those who come, bring the idea (hopefully) that they need to be at the top of their game, so that the waiver can be "earned". In the event of a driver who doesn't demonstrate competency, we suggest that they take another school. Sure, there may be hard feelings, but the driver should not feel he/she had anything taken away that they were "promised".

It isn't a perfect system, but I think the difference in tone is a major point in favor of the current setup. Also, having seen the level of student turned out by the commercial schools in the last year or three, I'm frustrated by the fact that our allowances have tied our hands in situations where someone is not track-ready.

We just need consistency in the administration of the waiver system, so that one area doesn't become the "easy pass", while another takes the stance of "we don't grant waivers at all."

[Flyinglizard]

Looks like the classes will also carry a tire size rule with the provision that some teams are over on tires and they may run in the next class. CCX will not have a max tire size.
All tires are treadwear 180 or higher. The top running cars are very well done and well driven. Lack of aero rules make for some nice splitters and wings, cut roofs etc.
The lap times are near SM and the top cars are ITR classed or near.
Many Chump teams will use the SCCA PDX,TT days as test days and driver coaching days. AS they do now. FWIW "Chin" gets around 4-5 Chumpcars each event. SCCA could benefit from the inclusion also,. both in the TT groups and race groups. Most Chump teams have at least one EX SCCA racer among them. WE want the EX part fixed..

SCCA has provisions to take these drivers with experience and hand them a novice permit, as it should be. Many have more track time and WTW time in 2 races as most SCCA drivers get n 4 yrs. 4- 8 hr per weekend is not unheard of. The new CRX thing is addressed to these drivers, and TT/race drivers from other sanctions.
The license thing is not my issue , as SCCA has moved to ease the deal anyway.

I will have a "final" provisional rule set in the next week and send it out to the regions, (post national lookssee.) Afew regions have said that they must go to the CRB first , but I dont read the GCR that way. Other than a few safety points, National has no interest or business in this mess.
We all want safety first of course.

[Flyinglizard]

Crap can rules, R5/13
The intent of these rule guidelines; Allow crapcans to cross over to SCCA with little hassle. The basic car should be able to be purchased for around 1000$
AS long as the car is deemed "safe" they should have a class under these rules. The Normal IT safety rules apply, master switch, brake lights. Most "crapcan" master switches are placed within driver reach, in the center of the car.
Three classes addresses one of the few shortcomings of Chumpcar,IMHO. A stable class structure may slow the speed creep and allow a car to remain competitive for more than a couple of years .
SCCA IT cars are legal and may run with the spec tires,@ IT weight.
Stock throttle body Production cars may be legal, with the spec tires, @ Prod weight..

CCU; 2.3 and under class , 225 max tire width

CCO; class(2.4 - 3.1) E 30 BMW -6 cyl , Honda products with V tec . E 30 must be stock and uncut.
245 max tire width

CrapCan-AM; Anything over 3.1, or a non stock power train,( swapped ,boosted etc )
All 6 cyl E 36. E 36 must be stock and uncut. No max tire size.

Non stock throttle body area; = 1 class bump

Any brakes within 1 in. OD of stock.

All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.

IT fire bottle rules.

Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.

IT cage rules are the minimum. Production Car cage rules encouraged. Any tubing allowed between the front and rear fire walls. Attachment to the sill/rockers are encouraged. Driver side wheel house bar recommended.

No tubing past the wheel hubs.
Some exceptions will occur, small short cars like the Honda, Miata, where the rear stays must go past the wheel hubs.

Open cars; must use arm restraints or some form of roof panel. Cars with no windshield, must use arm restraints.
Driver door must have window net.

Aero; unrestricted. Must be well attached.
3 in ground clearance rule, (includes all aero panels.)

Bodywork; Hood may be gutted and vented but must remain.
Interior Body panels may be lightened.
Trunks, hatches, roofs, may be removed or gutted.
Fenders , doors, rear quarter panels, may be modified but must remain.
Exterior driver door panels may be rolled down.
Glass may be removed. "Lexan" may be used throughout. GCR, Productions sizes.
Anything that can be removed per normal "Crapcan rules" , may be removed. (Everything).
Battery placement is open. must be safe secure and covered.

Nothing is cast in stone. Please reply with suggestions to improve these. And or oversight.
Thanks, Mike Ogren, [email protected]

[evanwebb]

Mike those rules are about 10% the size of the Chumpcar rules. It's very open and permissive, I think people could build some insane cars and meet these rules, and CrapCan-Am could be the fastest class in the SCCA. Is that really what is intended?

[Flyinglizard]

Evan, you're right. The E 36 must be uncut and stock throughout. The E30 must be stock and uncut.
The Chump rules have been weak at best. The E36 is the new standard. The Miata was the standard at the start.
We now have 30-40% of the cars are BMW. 80% of the podium cars are BMW.
Chump has 2 -3 swapped V6 MR2 second gen. rocket fast.
Saab 9-3 and 9-5 turbo.
Mercedes 2.5- 3.2 4 valve
Nissan Z32 roadster
The "Riley" team Mazda V6 roadster
Swapped Honda frankencars
Turbo VWs and Hondas
V8 RX7
Lexus V8
BMW E 30 swapped with M50
A few Chevy V8 Malibu ,Camaro, a couple of C4 Vetts.
Plenty of Mustangs V8s.
The cars are fast, the rules weak.

The never ending speed increase is why we have some interest for SCCA events with some sort of speed cap and classes. A good ITB car was top 5 on lap times where now it is bottom 30%lap times.

The Chump brake rule is 2X stock value. Really no rule at all. BMW calipers are more than Wilwood. The 1 in allows the same brakes with a hard number.

The other small SCCA conflict is the ERW cages that many Chump cars have. Most cage kits for RR or stock cars are ERW. Thus many early Chumpers are ERW tubing. Many "Autopower" cages are also ERW unless you get the upgrade. Chump allows a single pas door bar on paper, but I have never seen any.
Thanks for the input. MM

[dickita15]

Two things, first of all while SCCA racing tries to be Safe, Fun and Fair, I never figured that fair was the point of crap can racing. I think coming up with a simple class structure to make it a little more fair and posting it online so regions can adopt it at their discretion is a nice idea, but you will never make it totally fair without enough rules to fill a GCR. Hat okay it is supposed to be fun.
Second on your comments about licensing, using the alternate drivers school procedure drivers can be observed and signed off at non SCCA events. All you need is a willing SCCA instructor and a willing SCCA steward. Only the instructor has to attend the event.

[Spinnetti]

I'll fan the fire......

SCCA got to be out of touch due to too many rules, too little seat time, and too much money... Chump is catching up fast.... In the midwest, sounds like people are pouring money at the cars and making a demo derby of it (like IT in the NE?)....

Lemons has it more right, with more flexibility to build what you want (a huge draw for me) and the no contact rule is a big reason why. I feel less likely go get hit in Lemons than in IT (though I got nailed in the rain last year)

I've been in the SCCA since 87', and can't say the IT drivers are really any better than the walk-on bozos that come to Lemons - its more about our individual attitude and situational awareness IMO.

Regardless, my advice is: More enduros, and let the crapcans run. I wouldn't even class them or restrict beyond safety concerns. If they want micro-managed rules and classes, let them "graduate" to "real" club racing. I'd probably bring out my Lexus (LS400) in such circumstances to mid-west races.

[lateapex911]

I'll fan the fire......

SCCA got to be out of touch due to too many rules, too little seat time, and too much money... Chump is catching up fast.... In the midwest, sounds like people are pouring money at the cars and making a demo derby of it (like IT in the NE?)....

.

First, whats with the last snipe?

Second, it's far more complex that you boil it down to be. Whats scca supposed to do...REMOVE rules in FC? IT? Dump classes with subscribed populations because the rule book is thick?/
SCCA is a place to race...where the events are strictly run, and every attempt is made to create an even playing field. That is the kind of place that competitors want to race. But...not everyone can win. After a while, people get tired of not winning. Of trying hard, of spending the money, of spending tons of time, missing Mothers Day, kids soccer games (Which, these days, missing just one for a selfish act of working on the car/racing is grounds for divorce/world of hurt), and they stop, and think about ALL the costs, and the results vs guys like Gorrian, who POURS time and money at the sport, along with protests, and they think they might have a bad balance ...that the fun isn't there(winning), but the cost is.

So they decide, screw it, forget the highly competitive environment, and all the work/development/money, lets just go screw around and not worry about the competition as much.

And thats fine....it's just another facet of the diamond of performance driving. The pie is being divided up a bit, but it's growing. Marque clubs, constant HPDEs everywhere, lots of "pro" series for gentleman drivers to race in and get the desired TV coverage (at least until the budget or sugar daddy dries up), as well as Lemons and such, where the rules are in limbo, so nobody gets too far ahead.

Does SCCA need to change? Adapt? Yes, but it shouldn't lose sight of it's core customers, serious club racers who want well run fair competitions.

[Spinnetti]

First, whats with the last snipe?.

Actually, didn't mean to hit your hot button.. I just watched your videos (MR2 then right?)! From your videos, it looks like the roughest driving I've seen outside of demo derbies (I've lost a car in an aggressive driving incident once already). I like my IT car and am more worried about that kind of driving in the SCCA than in "crap can" racing where I don't have those worries in part due to the contact rules... My real point was, harsher contact rules would be a good idea, and that despite the lack of rules in Lemons, there is very competitive racing across a whole gamut of cars, lending credence to the observation that there might be a better balance than the current model. General attendance trends and growth of other series seems to imply that the model could use some adjustments or at least pilot ideas by allowing more folks "in the tent". I did NOT imply that SCCA classes should go away, only that it should welcome "crap cans" to the party, which would no doubt swell the ranks and coffers of the SCCA as people are exposed to what the SCCA has to offer and decide to take it to the next level.

What's really funny is that when I started IT, it WAS the "crap can" racing of the SCCA.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.....

[lateapex911]

Actually, didn't mean to hit your hot button.. I just watched your videos (MR2 then right?)! From your videos, it looks like the roughest driving I've seen outside of demo derbies (I've lost a car in an aggressive driving incident once already). I like my IT car and am more worried about that kind of driving in the SCCA than in "crap can" racing where I don't have those worries in part due to the contact rules...

...

MY videos?? Roughest driving you've seen outside of demo derbies?? MR2 then???Honestly I must be confused. I've never been in an incident where there was a complaint, or was my fault. Not sure on the MR2, never driven one. (did tap one once, when the driver requested me to...)

Toss a link up there.
And for what it's worth, one video of me or whoever doesn't brand the entire 5 region area as rough drivers... well, it shouldn't...

[Dano77]

Im with Jake on this, How can you say we are the DEMO-Derby in the NE. We just ran a tripe regional at NHMS, and other than the guy who crashed ON HIS OWN. Not one car got touched in 3 races. That was a 27 car field. I started 27th.

Now in the past I may have been a little too aggressive, yeah lets call it that, and I have been called out on it many times. Maybe you should come run a race with us and see whats up.

Jake is possably the cleanest driver in the NE and yur calling HIM out. I think your looking at the wrong video.

Dan, Argueably one of the most Aggressive Drivers in the NE.

[Flyinglizard]

The reality. Many of the drivers are the same, SCCA& crapcan.
The crap can rules are "no contact" . Often both cars are black flagged. The CC cars have a larger straightline speed variance. Result is less contact than SCCA.
I have had no contact in CC racing and some in fresh SCCA racers.


I have very little contact in all of my cars.( 2 chump, 2 SCCA) I have a 100$ scuff rule. Any scuff is 100$, no questions asked. In addition to the crash out cost/value.

SCCA has lots of crappy drivers. Many would not get through the "Chin solo sign off". Many would not get through the "NASA ladder system."
SCCA also has some of the best drivers.

I have had 2 SCCA rentals in the last year, that the drivers had never raced SCCA before.( Open wheel race school X2 ). One driver came to the track without any H&N. They sucked as drivers . Nice guys tho.
Big picture is that SCCA and Crapcan produce similar results in the quality of fresh drivers. One upside of CC is that the team has 4 drivers and they use lots of data/video to self coach.

Most crap can guys have at least 10hrs of track time after the 3rd race. These guys are not stupid . Many do plenty of test days, track days and have a team coach. ( we do)
They spend a lot of money to race. Lots More than SCCA regional racers.
Typical 14 hr budget is 4000- 7000$
Crap can teams will look for SCCA for cheap track time , fun racing and new venues. If the opportunity exist.IMHO.

[Drew M]

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both.

Putting someone on track who has no real teaching on how to drive in traffic, etc with club racers puts everyone and their cars at risk. However, as much as I hate this idea, it's not like the SCCA schools are a 4-year college type of program. As long as you don't have car troubles, or contact another car on track, you'll get signed off. Some are not much more than a streetcar track day with more relaxed passing rules. (That's not a jab at anyone in this discussion. I've had a few of you as instructors, and you're all very good.)

[Spinnetti]

MY videos?? Roughest driving you've seen outside of demo derbies?? MR2 then???Honestly I must be confused. I've never been in an incident where there was a complaint, or was my fault. Not sure on the MR2, never driven one. (did tap one once, when the driver requested me to...)

Toss a link up there.
And for what it's worth, one video of me or whoever doesn't brand the entire 5 region area as rough drivers... well, it shouldn't...

Sorry, my mistake... I thought it was you.... a bunch of videos on Youtube of IT races up there where it was total mayhem. No different than spec miata videos I've seen elsewhere. I guess people don't post their average races anyway!

Sorry for getting you guys all wired up, but the fact remains the SCCA just has too many barriers for the occasional participant. I would love to be able to easily get my IT car back on track (renew licence, get sign off to compete or do more drivers schools, get new medical, blah,blah, blah), but will go race in Chicago this weekend instead in my "Crapcan". I actually had better success in the SCCA (consistent top 5) than in Lemons (more like top 10) If a little luck holds maybe, I can beat all the other SCCA competitors that will be there :)

[mossaidis]

Too many generalities and no specific evidence... makes my head spin.

[lateapex911]

Sorry, my mistake... I thought it was you.... a bunch of videos on Youtube of IT races up there where it was total mayhem. No different than spec miata videos I've seen elsewhere. I guess people don't post their average races anyway!

OK, so it seems like you are saying that I'm not the guy but the claim that the NE drives like demo derby guys still stands...



Sorry for getting you guys all wired up, but the fact remains the SCCA just has too many barriers for the occasional participant. I would love to be able to easily get my IT car back on track (renew licence, get sign off to compete or do more drivers schools, get new medical, blah,blah, blah), but will go race in Chicago this weekend instead in my "Crapcan". I actually had better success in the SCCA (consistent top 5) than in Lemons (more like top 10) If a little luck holds maybe, I can beat all the other SCCA competitors that will be there :)

Yea yea... apology sorta accepted, but hey, here's an idea. Why not be specific and you know, back up a claim against a person or a whole region. If you're going to say we IT guys drive like a demo derby up in the North East, then post the videos (you have more than one, I am SURE, correct?) that shows such terrible driving.

OTHERWISE, if you can't actually, you know, prove your claim in even the faintest fashion, then post, "Yea, my bad, I really have formed conclusions and made derogatory claims when I have no concrete proof."

AND, I am sure that, as a man of honor, you won't come back telling us we are taking it too seriously, and that you really don't remember where/when you saw the videos or where they are, but that we should take your word that we drive like idiots.

(Trust me, some of us DO. I'd like to think my record of wins, championships and track records (6, I think) with no driving or mechanical protest ever show that I don't, but, the entire region? I think not. And I am sure ALL regions can say the same thing. Bad apples are in lots of places)

[gran racing]

a bunch of videos on Youtube of IT races up there where it was total mayhem. No different than spec miata videos I've seen elsewhere.

Going to IT and a brief stint in SM and now back to ITA, in the North East no less... It's never the class, it's the drivers in all cases. However I do honestly think that mid pack SM there typically is more contact. My personal reasoning and desire to come back to ITA is there are not as much differences of where the cars make up their time, thus one needs to make bigger chances. In IT, one car might have better speed in one type of section where the other have a better way of making speed in another section. One can wait a bit more.

That said, there are a couple of drivers in the North East in IT who have developed a bit of a reputation. Too bad, but that happens in almost all forms of racing. Saying Jake is a rough driver; well it's evident you don't know him well. He's to the extreme where I think if he did make a mistake and took someone out, he'd be the first person going to the driver and working on the car to make it right.

[JLawton]

Back in the early to mid 2000's, IT in the Northeast was absolutely crazy. We did have a well deserved reputation.............. You guys remember the wreck on the start of one of the Memorial Day races?? NASCAR style!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIWrSsx53S8



But it has changed big time.

[MMiskoe]

Most crap can guys have at least 10hrs of track time after the 3rd race. These guys are not stupid . Many do plenty of test days, track days and have a team coach. ( we do)
They spend a lot of money to race. Lots More than SCCA regional racers.
Typical 14 hr budget is 4000- 7000$This is an interesting comment. If you're going to spend that kind of money & effort, why wouldn't you go to a series that has a steady rule book and therefore a more level playing field? I can't say for Chump, I've not raced there, but for Lemons, it is a damn free for all. You might as well go out and race ITE (at least in the northeast) where you win with cubic dollars. Bla bla $500 value bla bla. I've looked that top cars at the end of a few Lemons races, pretty hard to say that you could replicate them for $500 each. I have a hunch that the original intent of crap can racing did not include test days and driving coaches. I've done 12 hour races in IT or SM for under $6k, sometimes even less than $5k.

[Flyinglizard]

First, It seems as tho the perception of SCCA has been , "not good". Too much hassle ,etc. Well founded in the past for sure. That perception is going to be very hard to change. I'm trying.

At the races last weekend... I'm 56 yrs old and on the younger end of our age spectrum.

The SCCA has no visibility. We are a bunch of old codgers driving old cars. In secret.

Too many classes and not enough track time is another perception. also well founded.





Many Chump teams are guys from the oval tracks that found out about Chump, built a car and went racing.That simple.

Many are BMWCCA guys that did the same.

"Chin" drivers,same . No hassle racing.

Lots of SCCA IT cars with EX-SCCA drivers.


It does not seem to be a money thing at all. I have really well funded drivers from all series run my cars, Nascar, WC/IMSA. PBOC. The drivers just want to write a check and have at it. The cost per hr is only a little less than SCCA.
The Chump race started 123 cars at Daytona lass week. Lots of good racing. ( @ $1000 per entry)

What can we offer these teams?

The new CRX deal may help attract some divers.
Who knows about it?? Not many. SCCA really needs a new promo person/persons. We do crap promoting. I love the SCCA guide that was the "Sportscar" a few months ago. Why would SCCA send this to the membership?? Stupid. Send it to the Chumpcar teams and other non members.


Night races on most track will sell very well. But for now. if we just have a class that allows these cars to come and play we should all be better off.
ITE, ITO, SPU, SPO, all are options in the SE as far as I can tell.
It looks as tho 2014 may have some class coverage in SCCA. Maybe the 3 ITB and 3 ITC , and 2 HP cars will come and race the crap can class.
The 180 TW tires last 20 hrs or more on the little cars.
Later, MM

[Dano77]

I want the $500 BMW M3 that Turner Motorsports had at the LeMons race last October. How do we get that one.

As for the contact in the early 2000's Yeah we were a little crazy back then. But look at the size of the field. and NO Miatas double dipping into the race, no IT7 yet. All straight up ITA cars.

Dan

[Chip42]

I think the draw has more to do with the free for all and track time, as well as the novelty of having a cut off roof, basically open aero, ugly paint, missing windows, themes, etc... SCCA and to a great extent NASA have developed paradigms and crapcans let you spit in the face of those. also, having a single run group definitely minimizes the time sitting in the paddock.

we can learn from this, but trying to do the same thing, better, is not the right approach, IMHO. finding what the compelling aspects of both CC and SCCA (or NASA) are and a way to merge them is the way to go. the end result should look unique, if you know what you are looking at. much of the final package should consist of event organization and conduct rules more than vehicle regs. As has already been noted, the chumpers are cheaper they just look like it. the visuals are definitely a part of the appeal, but they aren't the whole package by a long shot.

and to MM's organizational structure - don't single out VTEC Hondas, most, like the D16Y8, K24A4, etc... are economy systems that switch between a strong low end and efficient higher end cam, while the others, like the B16A/17/18C5 and K20Z3 are a streetable cam with a high end "race" cam on the VTEC side. some V6's just have cylinder deactivation and are called "VTEC" but are big enough to move up to the higher classes anyhow. point is, lumping them all together is ignorant and will end up pushing some good, cheap, fun cars out.

[Flyinglizard]

Straight crossover of Chumpcars to SCCA is the ideal. Not anything unique to either. Hassle free racing is why Chump and lemons is kicking SCCAass.
I'll skip the discussion for the Vtec ignorance thing.
MM

[gran racing]

With Chump's growing popularity, things are a changing. I'm completely amazed with the growing number of supposidly $500 cars in the field. As this continues, it'll be interesting to see how the perception of Chump and LeMons adjusts as well.

[Ron Earp]

I suspect you'll have a more informative discussion on this topic if you posted it on another forum....can't mention that forum though. The other forum has a lot of Chump/Lemons/SCCA/NASA racers who are very knowledgeable.

We've been considering a Chump build capitalizing on our ITS Mustang development. Lemons though, that series has no allure at all. I'm not bolting a shark on my roof, putting on a dress, or any of the other sorts shenanigans things I've read about in the Lemon events.

$500 Chump cars though? Come on now, I was born at night, but not last night. Most of those cars are worth way more than $500, safety equipment excluded. Bring all the receipts and Craigslist ads you want, and yeah, I know enough HTML to duplicate that too.

[Flyinglizard]

The values are based upon a points style value. Not actual value. yet.
Shox are 15$ per, not actual value
Headers are 50$ not 350,
etc.
My team's chump budget and car value is more than the prod car.

[Ron Earp]

The values are based upon a points style value. Not actual value. yet.
Shox are 15$ per, not actual value
Headers are 50$ not 350,
etc.
My team's chump budget and car value is more than the prod car.

$350 header? For $350 in materials you won't get a header that extracts every last bit of power from the engine even if you build it yourself. But, in this case I'm thinking like IT where you've got to be extremely precise about details to extract every last 1/2% so you can maximize your effort.

[StephenB]

From knowing people that participate that don't "race" all summer long they seem to be attracted for a few simple reasons.

They don't have to worry about rules and they don't need to spend extra money just to be compliant instead they can just do whatever and worry about penalty points later. People like being creative. Hmmm what can we create that will get everyone's attention....

Track time.... lack of track time equals down time. Like someone else mentioned. 1 race 1 show. Your involved all day long

The team aspect of it. Not an individual running that needs a support team to crew, in chump and lemons everyone gets a turn on track.

Commitment... Lots of weekends with scca. Not just 1 or 2 weekends of travel to a track per year.

Oh did you see that lemons thing on the news! That looks fun... we should make a team and go do that...

[Flyinglizard]

Winning is easy;
All that you need is; lap times right around SM
2hrs of fuel,with drivers that can put down clean laps for 2hrs.
4:50 pit stops
No offs
No black flags for contact
No failures of any kind

The top 4 will not have any down time(laps last year @ Sebring were 2:40 all day long)
The top 50 will have minimal off time

[Xian]

The reality. Many of the drivers are the same, SCCA& crapcan.
The crap can rules are "no contact" . Often both cars are black flagged. The CC cars have a larger straightline speed variance. Result is less contact than SCCA.
I have had no contact in CC racing and some in fresh SCCA racers.


I have very little contact in all of my cars.( 2 chump, 2 SCCA) I have a 100$ scuff rule. Any scuff is 100$, no questions asked. In addition to the crash out cost/value.

SCCA has lots of crappy drivers. Many would not get through the "Chin solo sign off". Many would not get through the "NASA ladder system."
SCCA also has some of the best drivers.

I have had 2 SCCA rentals in the last year, that the drivers had never raced SCCA before.( Open wheel race school X2 ). One driver came to the track without any H&N. They sucked as drivers . Nice guys tho.
Big picture is that SCCA and Crapcan produce similar results in the quality of fresh drivers. One upside of CC is that the team has 4 drivers and they use lots of data/video to self coach.

Most crap can guys have at least 10hrs of track time after the 3rd race. These guys are not stupid . Many do plenty of test days, track days and have a team coach. ( we do)
They spend a lot of money to race. Lots More than SCCA regional racers.
Typical 14 hr budget is 4000- 7000$
Crap can teams will look for SCCA for cheap track time , fun racing and new venues. If the opportunity exist.IMHO.

LeMons seems to be much more vehement about black flagging for contact. Chump may do it but I haven't personally seen/heard it at either of the races I've been to (VIR24 and Daytona 14).

Agreed that there's a ton of crossover... most of what I've seen is SCCA guys looking for a "more fun and relaxed weekend with gobs of track time". There are some Chump guys coming to SCCA for sprint stuff but it's not very cost effective compared to Chump Enduros. Primarily b/c the per driver entry cost with SCCA is a *bunch* higher and the cost to tow is the same regardless of the race length/# of drivers. Yes, there's incremental consumable cost savings but SCCA is still more expensive than Chump... the only way to "fix" that problem is for SCCA to start offering considerably longer enduro's on a regular basis (and that's unlikely to happen).

As far as weekend cost, there' are undoubtedly folks forking out $4-$7k for a weekend but that's much higher than what I've seen to be the actual cost to run a small car (Honda/Mazda/etc). A 14 hour race means half a set of tires, a set of pads, a post-race fluid change, and a bunch of gas. Budget in some additional $$ for food, drinks, periodic maintenance items and you're around ~$3200 total including entry fee *and* fuel for a 7 hour tow. No, this isn't placing a dollar value on car maintenance labor. Pulling that rabbit out of the hat is pretty retarded for crapcan racing, IMO.

As far as the smaller cars not being competitive... meh. Is it AS easy to win in a small car? Hell no. Can you finish well in one? Of course. It *does* need to be a pretty flawless race though... we managed a 6th place finish at Daytona and were under a minute out of 5th place. In a low HP crapcan. Hell, I was turning 2:25's on street tires in something that has roughly the power to weight of a mid-pack ITA car.


Straight crossover of Chumpcars to SCCA is the ideal. Not anything unique to either. Hassle free racing is why Chump and lemons is kicking SCCAass.
I'll skip the discussion for the Vtec ignorance thing.
MM

As I mentioned, I doubt seriously that the cars will show up at SCCA in any significant quantity. There's no "divide by 4" advantage while many of the costs are fixed (entry, tow).


With Chump's growing popularity, things are a changing. I'm completely amazed with the growing number of supposidly $500 cars in the field. As this continues, it'll be interesting to see how the perception of Chump and LeMons adjusts as well.

Yep, how Chump reacts (or doesn't) to the escalating speed and level of builds will determine how things sort out. I expect at some point that Chump will break the cars up into displacement based classes but that's just a WAG on my part.

[Spinnetti]

From knowing people that participate that don't "race" all summer long they seem to be attracted for a few simple reasons.

They don't have to worry about rules and they don't need to spend extra money just to be compliant instead they can just do whatever and worry about penalty points later. People like being creative. Hmmm what can we create that will get everyone's attention....

Track time.... lack of track time equals down time. Like someone else mentioned. 1 race 1 show. Your involved all day long

The team aspect of it. Not an individual running that needs a support team to crew, in chump and lemons everyone gets a turn on track.

Commitment... Lots of weekends with scca. Not just 1 or 2 weekends of travel to a track per year.

Oh did you see that lemons thing on the news! That looks fun... we should make a team and go do that...

Ah, finally somebody that understands. I have fun with my friends, and last weekend got about 8hrs of seat time which is plenty for me. I had a wild idea... How about a v8 luxury sedan with a 3 speed +OD tranny and ostensibly NO chance of winning? Got it for $350 from the repo man, put $60 set of steel suspension from the junkyard (replacing the blown air suspension) a $21 "fan" belt, and I have a nice running, driving 253k mile Lexus LS400 for $431, less $120 I sold for 3 cats, steel and aluminum for $311 net cost for the car. In lemons, brakes, tires, wheels and safety gear is "free".... All told including a proper cage, new race seat, belts, fire bottle, kill switch, racing brakes, tires, race wheels, Trans cooler etc, I've got around $4,500 in it, but I built WHAT I wanted, and exactly HOW I wanted it and have beat the tar out of it for over 100hrs without fault (until I holed the radiator this last weekend). Our car is a hog and costs about $3,000 a weekend to run including the tow and renting a trailer. I've also run in the top pack in a terrible neon and a worse old 90hp Celica, so anything is possible. Bring a SM or ITA car out on 200 treadwwear tires and see if you can catch me for less money :) Where else are you going to see a Camaro, a Neon and a Lexus all in the money for a heads up win? Its made me questions the micron level rules set of SCCA for sure.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-chicago-day-one-camaro-somehow-leads-v6-metros-skirmish/

[lateapex911]

. Bring a SM or ITA car out on 200 treadwwear tires and see if you can catch me for less money :) Where else are you going to see a Camaro, a Neon and a Lexus all in the money for a heads up win? Its made me questions the micron level rules set of SCCA for sure.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-chicago-day-one-camaro-somehow-leads-v6-metros-skirmish/

How is racing a 300hp car against a 120hp "heads up"?

[Spinnetti]

How is racing a 300hp car against a 120hp "heads up"?

Well, it only made 250hp new, maybe under 200 now, but regardless, I got beat by that 120hp neon based on fuel economy... he ran 70% the pace and 150+% the fuel endurance.... great fun! I know you are simply defending your "turf", and my comments aren't meant to detract, only to get some of you guys to open your eyes a bit and stop being so insular. I've had my IT car since 1992 and loved racing it, but for the occasional race, there's just too much overhead. Don't you want more participation? More competitors? More FUN?

[StephenB]

I want to be clear, "I" have more fun with the structure of SCCA. I like the"effort" to try and create a close to level paying field that SCCA has.

We are different and that is what is great about having 2 very different options to get on track.

If this was about cost and track time I would be racing in the legends program at nhms.

Stephen

[lateapex911]

Define "fun".
While it's fine for some, I have zero interest in putting big paintbrush bristles on my car, or a toile seat hanging off the back, or going into any race where the rules and penalties change that day, or are decided by some guy mid race.

"Fun" to me is engaging in a controlled competition where I know the rules going in, and they don't change to suit the sanctioning bodies needs during the event. I don't NEED a dozen cars...I need ONE other GOOD car that runs at the top of the game ....and I understand luck plays into every aspect of motorsports, but, I prefer that the variable be weather, as it happens to everyone pretty equally.

But thats me. Others see fun in different ways, and thats great.

[Flyinglizard]

Jake, Please dont confuse Chumpcar and lemons. Chumpcar is racing. Look at the pics of the cars posted on the Chumpsites ,etc.
Go to the Chump race that is near you.
Lemons is the carnival, Chump is the race. The cars are very serious.

The biggest Issue that I have with Chumpcar is lack of rules for the cars. Chumpcar needs maybe 3 classes for me to stay engaged.
The HP race is full on." Crap-Can-Am" is here to stay.

The contact rules are pretty well enforced as are the passing under yellow. The racers are pretty considerate on track and off.

The huge attraction of Chumpcar; friendly people, everywhere, reg,tech, pit marshells. The guys next to you. Just a good time without hassles.

Lots of track time with lots of little races.

[lateapex911]

Jake, Please dont confuse Chumpcar and lemons. Chumpcar is racing. Look at the pics of the cars posted on the Chumpsites ,etc.
Go to the Chump race that is near you.
Lemons is the carnival, Chump is the race. The cars are very serious.

The biggest Issue that I have with Chumpcar is lack of rules for the cars. Chumpcar needs maybe 3 classes for me to stay engaged.
The HP race is full on." Crap-Can-Am" is here to stay.

The contact rules are pretty well enforced as are the passing under yellow. The racers are pretty considerate on track and off.

The huge attraction of Chumpcar; friendly people, everywhere, reg,tech, pit marshells. The guys next to you. Just a good time without hassles.

Lots of track time with lots of little races.

Understood that lemons is a circus. And that Chump is more serious. But, there is still the issue of your point above.
Hey, it's a great thing for lots of people. Maybe it would be fine for me too, who knows. But, I'm in a "budget control" pattern, and that means no money spent on dumb stuff. Like racing, LOL.

[Ron Earp]

I'm with Jake. I've spent time speaking with Lemons and Chump racers and know Lemons isn't for me. No sharks on the roof, I don't want to drive around with Toyota minvans wearing an airplane (those guys did a nice job BTW), and don't want to be at the whim of some "official" because I won't give him my beer.

Chump might be for me, except there is a lack of rules structure. And, even with the lack of rules I notice on the websites and other places I'm reading about new 2014 rules coming down the pipe which will have fairly large changes. Someone here and on the other board indicated Chump is going to have to move to displacement based class structure - the slippery slope toward more rules and pretty soon you have SCCA IT or NASA PT.

Heck, it'd be pretty cool if Chump would just use the IT-rule set in a long-term enduro format.

[Xian]

I'm with Jake. I've spent time speaking with Lemons and Chump racers and know Lemons isn't for me. No sharks on the roof, I don't want to drive around with Toyota minvans wearing an airplane (those guys did a nice job BTW), and don't want to be at the whim of some "official" because I won't give him my beer.

Chump might be for me, except there is a lack of rules structure. And, even with the lack of rules I notice on the websites and other places I'm reading about new 2014 rules coming down the pipe which will have fairly large changes. Someone here and on the other board indicated Chump is going to have to move to displacement based class structure - the slippery slope toward more rules and pretty soon you have SCCA IT or NASA PT.

Heck, it'd be pretty cool if Chump would just use the IT-rule set in a long-term enduro format.

Meh. The great thing about Chump is that the cars can run stupid-low race weight that makes consumable costs go way down. Alternate (typically parts-binned) brakes mean less shit gets burned down in long races. And then there's the whole "tire" thing. ;)

I don't disagree that some sort of displacement based option makes sense for Chump... still, even without it, you don't *need* to have eleventy billion HP to place well or even just enjoy racing for the best position you can get. I've yet to talk with anyone who's raced both SCCA and Chump who didn't enjoy both orgs (for different reasons). One's not necessarily "better" than the other and, if I'm honest, I doubt folks who own ChumpCars want a bunch of SCCA 10/10ths build mentality in their sandbox. All it will do is further drive up the cost to compete at the front of the pack.

[Ron Earp]

I doubt folks who own ChumpCars want a bunch of SCCA 10/10ths build mentality in their sandbox.

Coming to a neighborhood near you if Team Stangwerks builds a Chumpstang. Along with some ITS drivers.

But LeChump already has that already with some teams, as well as professional drivers. LeChump already costs as much or more more than a decent IT effort, although IT isn't, except in rare cases, a team build.

[Xian]

Coming to a neighborhood near you if Team Stangwerks builds a Chumpstang. Along with some ITS drivers.

But LeChump already has that already with some teams, as well as professional drivers. LeChump already costs as much or more more than a decent IT effort, although IT isn't, except in rare cases, a team build.

I guess it depends how you define "decent" huh? I've built IT cars and I've talked plenty with LeChump folks (raced with them as well) and there is a VAST difference in cost between the two. Because there is so much low hanging fruit, there's not the investment in an SM-like approach to chasing small details (and the cubic dollars that go with it). No two-way shocks so no money being spent on revalves, big spring rates, or the testing. No custom sway bars (or very few). No big $$ diffs. If there are folks building mega-dollar motors then 1- they're stupid 2- they're illegal 3- have fun with that.

I'd wager that you can build a top-10 Chump car for under $5,000 if you can weld the cage. Under $7,000 if you have to farm the cage out. I can point to plenty of cars in IT that have close to $5k in just their suspension.

[Ron Earp]

Sure, decent means lots of different things.

Knowing what I know now, I'm confident I can build a very good LeChump Mustang for under $7k, but, what I know now came at a heavy price over the last couple of years. I'm sure Steve E could bust out a RX7 LeChump for reasonable money, as could many other racers build a pared down version of their IT car. Granted, the IT version is ultimately more expensive, but for even $7k to $10k I could have an IT car that would be podium capable.

From what I understand the time and money just isn't that much different, certainly not orders of magnitude different.

[Flyinglizard]

Pretty clear that Chump will not have any classes for the endurance races.
SCCAhas a small window of opportunity to gain a few racers that run the real 500$ small engined cars. Miata 1.6 and slower.

[Xian]

Sure, decent means lots of different things.

Knowing what I know now, I'm confident I can build a very good LeChump Mustang for under $7k, but, what I know now came at a heavy price over the last couple of years. I'm sure Steve E could bust out a RX7 LeChump for reasonable money, as could many other racers build a pared down version of their IT car. Granted, the IT version is ultimately more expensive, but for even $7k to $10k I could have an IT car that would be podium capable.

From what I understand the time and money just isn't that much different, certainly not orders of magnitude different.

AEM/Motec ECU- ~$2k vs. a $25 ebay chip
Customer burns header ~$1500 vs. ebay/CL @ $100
Custom valved DA shocks ~$4k vs. Bilsteins @$400

My point above is that pointy end of the field in Chump is relatively cheaper than IT. And by a bunch of cash when you're talking apples:apples point end of the grid cars. Remember, mid-pack in IT means finishing 3rd-5th (most regions would be thrilled to have 10 IT cars in a class). Mid-pack in Chump means finishing ~50-60th. Building a Top-10 Chump car means that you're in the top 8-10% of the finishers. The top 8-10% in IT means that you're 1st or 2nd.

Could I build a mid-pack IT car for $7k? Probably but it'd be tight... and with R-comp loads, stock brake temps, the higher spring rates I'd need for the tires... I'd also expect to start having bearings/hubs/ball-joints dying on me. That same $$ would get you a top-10 Chump car with a lower failure rate and more of the budget to go toward preventative maintenance.

[StephenB]

The chump you guys are explaining was IT 15yrs ago...

Just sayin.

[Dano77]

The chump you guys are explaining was IT 15yrs ago...


Or IT7 now.


Also just sayin'

[Xian]

The chump you guys are explaining was IT 15yrs ago...

Just sayin.

Bingo. Agreed eleventy seven brazillion percent. I've heard (and said) the same thing in IT and Chump paddocks.

I'm sure folks will threaten to crucify me for it but, in the long term, a readjustment to the IT tire rules would go a long way toward reigning in some of the advantage that high dollar suspension parts yield. It still wouldn't address the underlying "problem" behind the IT full-tilt build mentality.

[lateapex911]

It's the usual cycle, Christian. Neat category/series gets invented, seems to offer fun times, good racing, for reasonable money.
It then attracts lots of folks. Gets popular. Which attracts more people who look at it and think, "Hmm, looks like I could afford a solid well built car that can win there", and they spend a bit more...and win. Rinse, repeat. Over and over. The rules get parsed and new rules are written but often it's too late, reservoir shocks are out of the barn.

Average Joes see how much it costs to play in the sandbox, and look elsewhere.

they find a shiny new playground and everybody rushes there. Then somebody decides they have the budget to get serious, and away we go.

To ITs defense, its lasted a loooooong time.

True and good point about the tires, BUT, that ship pretty much sailed in the early 90's.
I remember making a comment yeeeears ago about how I wished the Hoosier factory would burn down and we'd all be forced to run on street tires. Man did THAT comment land me some shit! Obviously i wasns't serious, but some folks took me to task, .

But yea, if Star Specs (or whatever) had existed back then and we had a crystal ball, it might have been an interesting experiment to limit R-comps.

When I finally got my wheels/tire 'quiver' close to where I wanted it this is what I had mounted at all times:
-a set of fresh low cycle (under 4) R comps (Hoosier)
-a set of fresh A compounds for qualifying and cold conditions
-a set of Dirt Stockers for slime and wet.
-a set of 4-12 cycle "practice' and test tires.

Lacking: a set of soft intermediates.

That would be FIVE sets. With a tire rule, we could eliminate 3 or 4 of those. Thats some serious $$ savings.

[Flyinglizard]

Tires; 1) Are the reason I run the VWs in prod(ITB spec cars). I can buy Ebay slicks for 100$ /4.

2) The 180TW tires last pretty well and are racey enough.

3) my rule set allows the IT spec cars to run with the 180TW tires

4) notice No rim sizes - just tire sizes, this allows more cars to run together regardless of IT specs.

*** Last. If this may be a provisional 2014 rule set, I will sign my Turbo Jett Chumper up for the Grassroots Challenge with the SCCA Class tags on it***( CrapCan-AM, "CCAM")

How can we make this happen?

[Flyinglizard]

http://neohio-scca.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2013-Restricted-National-SCCA-Racing-Experience.pdf

NEOhio is running the CRX with crap can regs. Cant really see the price, but one guy said, 100$ for all 5 sessions. I think that SCCA racers should be allowed to run also, but if they get enough, all is good.

Big step for easy entry to SCCA.

[CPLUCKER]

I have been racing SCCA for 12 years in ITB and ITS and just recently gave up on trying to race chump car.

year 1
we built a VW jetta, I built the cage for $300 in tubing, gave the team my old race seat and belts etc. we still ended up with like $4k in the the $500 car . we got 6 hours of our 1st 12 hour race, blew the gasket and replaced it then it blew again in 14 min. I ended up with $1800 and 50 hours in it and I got 27 minutes of drive time .

year 2
the team decided the jetta was to slow so we bult a 86 rx7
built the car, spent a bunch of money and time making a $500 car, cut pring to the right rate etc. ( way easier to just buy the right springs ) ended up with $6k in the car. we blew the engine in the first 2 hours , bought another at the track for $300 changed it an blew it about 20 minutes later. I eneded up with about $1000 in the deal and got to drive for an hour

year 3
re-build blown rotary, not enough compresson to start, bought running car for the engine, swapped the engine. started the race, blew the side seal on lap 2 and got blacked flaged for smoke ! AT A CHUMPCAR RACE !
spent $800 drove o minutes.

my SCCA ITS experience is I bought a ITS 280 z for $4k and have raced it for 3 years with only brakes and tires

so my exerience is that chump is no cheaper. much more work , more hassles ( tech, changing rules, etc. ) and the pain in the ass factor of the team people were mad about not getting to drive etc.

So I am just going with the cheap low hassle low work SCCA, where I am competitieve know the rules, and have lots of fun.

your mileage may vary...

Chris Plucker

[Flyinglizard]

Having 4 fly in drivers is a very hard deal . I ran 3 cars with 4 drivers each for one year.
Just running a car 14hrs is part of the prep issues. Nobody said it was going to be easy, or cheap.
There is around 80hrs prep-or repair, per car every 24hrs. Not a good business model. I had to get rid of drivers that "sprint" attitude.

6 hr races would be the nuts, night races would sell huge.IMHO.

SCCA could do better than Chump with some simple tweaks.

Having a class for your already built cars would be a good start.

[lateapex911]

I wonder if that 80 hour prep figure that Mike gives is accounted for properly in the balance sheet when the Chump guys say the racing is 'cheap'. At shop rates, it sure isn't.
I suspect they 'divide by 4" and everybody works for free. Thats great, but if you aren't the first driving stint, and the the car fails in some area that ANOTHER guy worked on, I can see being pretty annoyed.

I still say the major cost saving areas are the tires.
AND the lesser desire to win at all costs.

[Xian]

Jake, you're just trying to be difficult. You know damn well that the labor isn't figured in. ;)

I think 80 hours is way on the high side FWIW. After the Daytona 14, the Tr0nsAm needed pads/rotors and fresh oil. Yes, really. Now it's ready for the RA regional and will have 3 or 4 drivers in it covering the double SARRC, ECR, and Pro-IT. I'll bet it's on the same tires as Daytona. Which are the same tires as it was on for RA before that.

I feel like I'm setting myself on a repeat loop but the prep requirements are lower because the "warts and all" aspects of cars can be "fixed". And since the suspension/brakes don't see the same loads (thermal and G) that race tires provide, you don't burn through ball joints, tie rods, etc like IT cars. It's way the hell cheaper than IT but its also way the hell different. Apples, oranges, etc.

Yes, equipment failure happens but it's not as common as you'd think (assuming you keep a focus on simple prep and attention to detail). Could the car explode or get crashed before your stint? Of course... But that's no different than any other enduro. Nature of the beast.

FWIW, from the outside looking in, you and some others seem to be trying to find ways to tear down Chump. My $0.02 would be to accept that it's an alternative to folks who like cars and like racing and who also have become a bit disillusioned with the idea of "amateur" racing with SCCA. As much as I'd enjoy some of the aspects of getting back into IT/Prod/ST, the tire costs, prep requirements, and cubic dollars to run at the front just aren't for me. Entry fee/track time is also out of whack compared to Chump. I'd never suggest that someone give up IT for Chump but it's well worth checking out. :)

PS
There was a Chump 300ZX at Roebling yesterday... They were turning 1:20's on street tires. Obviously it's not a "real" race car though. ;)

[Flyinglizard]

80hrs per 24-28 race hrs.
Not every 14hr race.

The Turbo Jett gets a fresh head gasket every race, new oil every other race:)

[Bill Miller]

Bingo. Agreed eleventy seven brazillion percent. I've heard (and said) the same thing in IT and Chump paddocks.

I'm sure folks will threaten to crucify me for it but, in the long term, a readjustment to the IT tire rules would go a long way toward reigning in some of the advantage that high dollar suspension parts yield. It still wouldn't address the underlying "problem" behind the IT full-tilt build mentality.

And what exactly do you see as this 'problem'? Most racers are Type A personality people. Highly competitive, and want to win. It doesn't matter what kind of racing series you have, you will always have people that will spend whatever it takes to build to the limit of the rules. That's just how a lot of racers are wired.

Chump will eventually be no different, it just hasn't gotten there yet. Comments like "it's still fun", "lots of low-hanging fruit", "it's what IT was 15 years ago", etc. reinforce that. The more people get interested, the more it will attract those w/ the 'spend whatever it takes' mentality. It may be relatively inexpensive now, and lots of fun, but if you think the dollars won't eventually come in and up the game for everybody, you haven't been around very long.

I bet there are quite a few people here that either knew of, or were one of, the folks that drove their IT cars to the track. The last guy I knew that did this was Kirk, when he drove Pablo home to NC after the 12-hour at Summit Point in '05 (I think). And even then, he was an anomaly. Heck, I remember when enclosed trailers at a Regional race were an anomaly. Those days are long gone.

[Xian]

And what exactly do you see as this 'problem'? Most racers are Type A personality people. Highly competitive, and want to win. It doesn't matter what kind of racing series you have, you will always have people that will spend whatever it takes to build to the limit of the rules. That's just how a lot of racers are wired.

Chump will eventually be no different, it just hasn't gotten there yet. Comments like "it's still fun", "lots of low-hanging fruit", "it's what IT was 15 years ago", etc. reinforce that. The more people get interested, the more it will attract those w/ the 'spend whatever it takes' mentality. It may be relatively inexpensive now, and lots of fun, but if you think the dollars won't eventually come in and up the game for everybody, you haven't been around very long.

I bet there are quite a few people here that either knew of, or were one of, the folks that drove their IT cars to the track. The last guy I knew that did this was Kirk, when he drove Pablo home to NC after the 12-hour at Summit Point in '05 (I think). And even then, he was an anomaly. Heck, I remember when enclosed trailers at a Regional race were an anomaly. Those days are long gone.

I'm well aware of the life cycle of "cheap racing"... I've been as much a part of the problem as the solution. I'd like to think that I've wised up and that I've got a more healthy perspective on racing now. I 100% understand and agree that's you can't (edit: accidentally typed "can") easily use rules to limit spending but, to some degree, you can use them to limit the advantage of spending cubic dollars.

I remember back with Dr K would drive is car to the track... the only other person I know who does it is Kai with his ITS Civic.

Chump spending will absolutely increase... but the street tires limit the gains of what you can do with the suspension. The rules discourage "obvious" cheats. The format encourages consistency and reliability over outright speed. The rules allow you to reduce consumables costs. Because of these things, I doubt it will get as expensive to run at the front as IT is. :shrug:

[lateapex911]

Good points on the labor factor Christian. Of course car choice is massively important in that respect. As you point out, you can burn some cars down with IT level mods, but others will hum all day long. Tire allowance is certainly an area where massive spending could be controlled...to a degree. But jamming that genie back in the bottle, wow, thats tough.
I had as you might remember, amassed, after years of 'collecting', 5 sets of wheels and had 4 different types of tires mounted at all times. Lots of guys do, and to change tire rules means tehy now have a huge obsolete collection.

Another reason that rules should be examined carefully before they are changed. Once allowed, there's not much turning back.

I know guys who are all giddy that the radiator overflow bottle rule got removed, (I missed that one, I guess) as certain cars have a big old hole behind it and now it's a nice source of fresh cold air. So some cars gain, others do not. Too late now....

[Flyinglizard]

Solo, stock has headed back to street tires .

All it takes is a few guys in your class, agreeing to buy harder tires.
The racers in the Dominican Republic( and many parts of the world) do exactly that. They spend big money on the hard parts, but the tires are such a hassle to get and keep enough of that they are racing on Kumho XS.(2012 I think the same this year.)

180TW has many choices, last many hrs and have very little fall off , if any.

The Miata can be run in Chumpcar for very little cost per hr. maybe 150$. But they are slow next to the E36 and the 200Hp cars.
I chose the VW, as that is what I have been running over the years. The first year we were top 10 pace wise. finished 2nd at our best race. Now the NA VW pace is about mid pack.
The VW needs more Love than the Miata, breaks more head gaskets, hubs etc. Then most of my guys wanted to go faster , I had some turbo bits left from my prior business, and it went down hill from there.
I chose a car that is not easy to run long races with. my own fault.

Meanwhile, I have been in an endless loop with SCCA. The region says that the rules must go thru CRB, OK.
CRB say that any region can run what they want. At this point I am try to use the free promo value of the Grassroots challenge, running a car with SCCA class tags on it.

Funny thing is that NASA just says , bring a few cars and have fun.
PBOC, same.
The size of SCCA and the bureaucracy is a lot of our problems, moving at a snail's pace, if at all.

The small regions, trying to hang onto life, move much faster.

I am on the edge of being banned ( big surprise) from the Chump Forum for listing non Chump places to run the cars. Nelson SCCA CRX deal was posted last week, removed.
While we have many SCCA/ Chumps discussing the values of each on this forum. Nice, thanks.

Chumpy cars are not for everyone. Part of the allure is that they can be cut, modded, hot rodded, swapped.
Another part is the lack of classes. That would be fine if it also had some rules that were enforced. IMHO.

The outside perception of SCCA; old codgers racing old cars. Spot on, IMHO
Too many classes with 3 cars per class. again pretty close.

Too much hassle to get a license. Maybe. NASA is harder IMHO

Tech sucks. Maybe valid. Much better now than in the past.

Short track time VS tow time; valid. Splitting groups into each day would maybe have some sell, by reducing down time and overnight cost. 2hrs per day could increase the participation, IMHO.

Outsiders perception of Chump; Anyone can drive, good and bad, valid
Any car can run, valid

Long hard fast races. Valid
Generally nice people, valid

Short story. no progress. The ERW cages may preclude many Chumpers from being allowed into any SCCA Class.( most cage kits are ERW) /

[Xian]

As far as the original Classing question, can you run/do you have an ITX class? ATL Region runs this and there are a couple Chump cars that enter. ITX is a catchall for all cars that have been built to another series' ruleset and have IT required safety elements (cage, seat, net, etc). It could theoretically have SpecE30, Spec944, etc as well as Chump cars populating it.


Good points on the labor factor Christian. Of course car choice is massively important in that respect. As you point out, you can burn some cars down with IT level mods, but others will hum all day long. Tire allowance is certainly an area where massive spending could be controlled...to a degree. But jamming that genie back in the bottle, wow, thats tough.
I had as you might remember, amassed, after years of 'collecting', 5 sets of wheels and had 4 different types of tires mounted at all times. Lots of guys do, and to change tire rules means tehy now have a huge obsolete collection.

Another reason that rules should be examined carefully before they are changed. Once allowed, there's not much turning back.

I know guys who are all giddy that the radiator overflow bottle rule got removed, (I missed that one, I guess) as certain cars have a big old hole behind it and now it's a nice source of fresh cold air. So some cars gain, others do not. Too late now....

On the wheel/tire thing... yeah, that's an almost impossibly tough sell. Folks have their existing wheels that may or may not be the right size (i.e. ITB/ITC car on 13's). If I *do* ditch my 13's for 15's then I need a Final Drive to get back to being competitive. This is almost exactly what NASA ran into when they went from an "open" tire rule for Honda Challenge to Spec Toyo's back in the day. Folks who were running 13's were stuck bumping to 15's and then needed a Houseman Custom FD for Texa$.

Yes, "we" could point to SCCA's move in Solo/Street to 180/200+ TW tires but that's not going to help how folks react to it at a local/regional level.

[Chip42]

SPU/SPO/ITO in CFR. SPU/O would be the closest thing to a crapcan catchall, though we have just straight placed chumpcars in with IT at CFR and SARRC races, too. I remember a BMW 5 series chumpcar that was stuck in ITA a year or two ago. that didn't go so well.

[webhound]

I have an IT car that I bought cheap. I raced it a few times on the ice, which is mega cheap. I raced it at RA at the Chump, and I autocrossed it a few times. I've been instructing at some track days with it more recently.

It's been a dream of mine since childhood to race in an SCCA club race. With this car and some help from the licensing fairies, I'm almost at that point. BUT, I know for sure I won't be able to do it often, and I for sure can't afford the rcomps that I know are required to be competitive. I have a set of SM6 take offs that I'd use for now to get out there. From there, without another set of take-offs, I'd run on my 180/200tw street tires that I've already used for 14 hours of Chump racing and another 4-8 hours of HPDE.

To be 100% honest about it, if I were out there circulating on these 200tw tires, in a low entry race group, would I be satisfied? I have no idea. In the Chump and on the ice, there was always someone to dice with, or potentially set up for a pass/be passed. If I could dice with a couple guys in a club race while being on my sub-par equipment, maybe I'd be happy with that. If not, and the rest of the field is a lot faster, well, I can be passed by faster cars all day long for free, when I instruct HPDE.

Maybe I'm not really the demo for club racing, being of pretty limited means. But otoh, I do get out there and do other things with my limited motorsport money. AND, that CRX event that Mike cited would be up my alley.

So, IMHO and fwiw, I really do think street tires have a place in some sort of SCCA racing. They definitely last longer than rcomps and are cheaper. Unfortunately, if it's the will of the members, it just has to be done, and there will be lots of hard feelings about it from those that are opposed.

^Christian also makes a good point about the size availability, etc. However, you and I already know that even on 13s, the ITB/C guys have FD swaps already, anyway. Yes, the cars will be worse on the 15s in terms of rollout, but really pretty much all the B/C cars will be in the same boat on that one.

[Chip42]

most B cars are rolling on 14 or 15s these days and have the grunt to make that work, maybe with a final drive. there are some 13" out there but fewer and fewer. the ITC guys run a 13 AND crazy tall final drives, so a switch to a 13"-less option would be a very hard blow to that group.

generally I do agree that SCCA is now lacking a low-cost barrier to competitiveness class. As the "leisure" drives have been largely pushed out by the economy and the past few rounds of safety equipment mandates anyhow, the "cream" as it were is largely what's left. there are some very serious IT cars and a lot less of the old prep cars showing up. End result is that the middle of the pack got more expensive to run with.

"slower", cheaper (to own, build, run) cars on 180tw tires in their own race group with maybe with some relaxed safety requirements (and maybe not) would certainly be attractive to some, but if the class were to get popular you'd just have an analog of IT in the late 90s - pushing into all of the nooks and crannies of the rules and becoming a spending/engineering war all over again. the only way I can think of to keep it cheap is the benevolent dictator, and you will NEVER see that (officially) in SCCA club racing.

[Flyinglizard]

The tire rule helps reduce the cost issue. I had stiff springs and fair shox, removed those and went to cut stockers. Lap speed was the same .
I was pretty sure that CFR had ITO rules but cant seem to find anything .
Maybe we could run there and specify DOT 180TW tires. Start with one class. ITO.


Does SPU and SPO have fuel cell requirements? Most Chumpers run the stock tank.

[lateapex911]

As far as the original Classing question, can you run/do you have an ITX class? ATL Region runs this and there are a couple Chump cars that enter. ITX is a catchall for all cars that have been built to another series' ruleset and have IT required safety elements (cage, seat, net, etc). It could theoretically have SpecE30, Spec944, etc as well as Chump cars populating it.



On the wheel/tire thing... yeah, that's an almost impossibly tough sell. Folks have their existing wheels that may or may not be the right size (i.e. ITB/ITC car on 13's). If I *do* ditch my 13's for 15's then I need a Final Drive to get back to being competitive. This is almost exactly what NASA ran into when they went from an "open" tire rule for Honda Challenge to Spec Toyo's back in the day. Folks who were running 13's were stuck bumping to 15's and then needed a Houseman Custom FD for Texa$.

Yes, "we" could point to SCCA's move in Solo/Street to 180/200+ TW tires but that's not going to help how folks react to it at a local/regional level.

yea, that move has gone very smoothly, don't you think?? :blink:

[Chip42]

Maybe we could run there and specify DOT 180TW tires. Start with one class. ITO.


Does SPU and SPO have fuel cell requirements? Most Chumpers run the stock tank.

there are SEDIV rules in place for all SARRC events, and CFR has their own as you know. the SEDIV rules list specific cars for ITO, and require IT or GT safety for SP (depending on tub or tube frame car).

http://sedivracing.org/2013SEDivRegionalClassRules.pdf

[Flyinglizard]

Thanks for the link Chip.
Looks as tho the CrapCans cans could fit either ITO or SP. Depending on fuel tank and rear bumper rules , prod allows stock tanks with stock rear bumpers for a lot of cars and up to the tech's discretion. ( Not sure how the Vett is ruled- Hope it needs a cell.)

Have there been any cars in ITO this year? Cant remember seeing any. I will see what that road looks like.
The tire rule could be a handshake thing. IMHO.

Webhound, thanks for your input/thoughts. Guys like yourself are who we are interested in .
MM

[Chip42]

Thanks for the link Chip.
Looks as tho the CrapCans cans could fit either ITO or SP. Depending on fuel tank and rear bumper rules , prod allows stock tanks with stock rear bumpers for a lot of cars and up to the tech's discretion. ( Not sure how the Vett is ruled- Hope it needs a cell.)

Have there been any cars in ITO this year? Cant remember seeing any. I will see what that road looks like.
The tire rule could be a handshake thing. IMHO.


GT or IT rules mike - fuel cells are completely optional in SP in a car that is IT safety compliant. tube cars run cells. I agree that Prod's "inside the frame rails and between the axles" rule is a good one. I haven't seen an ITO car in florida in ages, usually 1 or 2 show up at the arrc. most converted to STO (pretty much a sticker and weight change for most cars on the list).

in a region like ours with its own championship and a good sized group of less than arrc-winning prepped cars, a handshake could be all that is needed to get 5-6 cars each in ITB and A, maybe ITS to try some street tires. most divisions don't have IT numbers like we have in our region, so getting any sort of local accord could be challenging.

I've decided I'll only be running TES/ECR and CFRs for the next year at least, and supporting the rest of TrackSpeed (i.e. the fast guys) in the SARRC. I'm toying with the idea of trying some rivals or ZIIs in this capacity... haven't made the decision between them and a Toyo RR or BFG R1. the SM6/R6 is out - wears too fast for the $$ and I'm not taking full advantage of their capability.

[Xian]

most B cars are rolling on 14 or 15s these days and have the grunt to make that work, maybe with a final drive. there are some 13" out there but fewer and fewer. the ITC guys run a 13 AND crazy tall final drives, so a switch to a 13"-less option would be a very hard blow to that group.

generally I do agree that SCCA is now lacking a low-cost barrier to competitiveness class. As the "leisure" drives have been largely pushed out by the economy and the past few rounds of safety equipment mandates anyhow, the "cream" as it were is largely what's left. there are some very serious IT cars and a lot less of the old prep cars showing up. End result is that the middle of the pack got more expensive to run with.

"slower", cheaper (to own, build, run) cars on 180tw tires in their own race group with maybe with some relaxed safety requirements (and maybe not) would certainly be attractive to some, but if the class were to get popular you'd just have an analog of IT in the late 90s - pushing into all of the nooks and crannies of the rules and becoming a spending/engineering war all over again. the only way I can think of to keep it cheap is the benevolent dictator, and you will NEVER see that (officially) in SCCA club racing.

Yup. Die-hard competition is what drives development and spending. I'm not saying that's a "bad" thing as I'm kinda one of those assholes as well *but* there has to be some level of "gentleman's agreement" not to go nuclear with prep. Getting a car reliable is one thing. Pulling your OTS Bilsteins and testing multiple valving shouldn't be what budget racing is about.

Is there a place for a street tired class? I'd like to think so but the likely first step is getting folks out in a catch-all class in order to show the actual level of interest that exists.


The tire rule helps reduce the cost issue. I had stiff springs and fair shox, removed those and went to cut stockers. Lap speed was the same .
I was pretty sure that CFR had ITO rules but cant seem to find anything .
Maybe we could run there and specify DOT 180TW tires. Start with one class. ITO.


Does SPU and SPO have fuel cell requirements? Most Chumpers run the stock tank.

I've been surprised at how little the current crop of street tires and budget suspension gives up in lap times... mid 2:20's at Daytona is a mid-pack ITA time. I did that in a street tired Chump car that has roughly ITA power to weight.


there are SEDIV rules in place for all SARRC events, and CFR has their own as you know. the SEDIV rules list specific cars for ITO, and require IT or GT safety for SP (depending on tub or tube frame car).

http://sedivracing.org/2013SEDivRegionalClassRules.pdf

ITO seems an awful lot like ITX. Basically a class for cars that were built for another class/series and must meet IT type safety regs.


GT or IT rules mike - fuel cells are completely optional in SP in a car that is IT safety compliant. tube cars run cells. I agree that Prod's "inside the frame rails and between the axles" rule is a good one. I haven't seen an ITO car in florida in ages, usually 1 or 2 show up at the arrc. most converted to STO (pretty much a sticker and weight change for most cars on the list).

in a region like ours with its own championship and a good sized group of less than arrc-winning prepped cars, a handshake could be all that is needed to get 5-6 cars each in ITB and A, maybe ITS to try some street tires. most divisions don't have IT numbers like we have in our region, so getting any sort of local accord could be challenging.

I've decided I'll only be running TES/ECR and CFRs for the next year at least, and supporting the rest of TrackSpeed (i.e. the fast guys) in the SARRC. I'm toying with the idea of trying some rivals or ZIIs in this capacity... haven't made the decision between them and a Toyo RR or BFG R1. the SM6/R6 is out - wears too fast for the $$ and I'm not taking full advantage of their capability.

What size are you looking for? I'd bet that, depending on when you need them, we could track down some take-off's to try out.

[Chip42]

What size are you looking for? I'd bet that, depending on when you need them, we could track down some take-off's to try out.

What's the widest thing that'll fit on a 15x6? 205/50R15 I'm sure will, 225 hoosier fits but I hear the street stuff doesn't like to bow in so much. if you can find some takeoffs I'd definitely run them as a "fact finding" experiment.

[Xian]

What's the widest thing that'll fit on a 15x6? 205/50R15 I'm sure will, 225 hoosier fits but I hear the street stuff doesn't like to bow in so much. if you can find some takeoffs I'd definitely run them as a "fact finding" experiment.

Yep, 205 would probably be a better fit than 225. I'll check/ask around. Worst case scenario is that I should have some used 205/50 Rival's later this year.

[webhound]

I ran 205/50-15 Falken 615Ks on 15X6 Acura wheels at Road Atlanta, then I ran them in the wet at the Glen this summer. They were decent. I then ran Ecsta XS 205s on 15X7s, also at the Glen in the rain, the difference (again rain) was negligible. I'm sure ZIIs on 7s would be faster than 615Ks on 6s, but it won't be gobs of time.

[Xian]

I ran 205/50-15 Falken 615Ks on 15X6 Acura wheels at Road Atlanta, then I ran them in the wet at the Glen this summer. They were decent. I then ran Ecsta XS 205s on 15X7s, also at the Glen in the rain, the difference (again rain) was negligible. I'm sure ZIIs on 7s would be faster than 615Ks on 6s, but it won't be gobs of time.

Depends on what "gobs of time" means to you. ;)

I'd expect the Z2 to be ~1-2 seconds a lap faster than either the 615 or XS. The Rival or RS3 will be another ~0.5-1 second faster than the Z2.

[webhound]

I can buy Ebay slicks for 100$ /4.


Linky?

:)

[Flyinglizard]

http://stores.ebay.com/Race-Tires-USDRRT?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

[Flyinglizard]

Latest Update;
2014 will see Crapcans "welcomed into SCCA" in some fashion, for many regions. The PNW and upper Midwest have started ITJ and have included the class already.
For the SE division. 2014 may see an actual new class or Crapcans run in a pre existing class. Not sure yet, but most of the logistics depend on car counts. Breaking the cars into speed related classes may come as car counts improve.
The major class control is the tires' tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Non crap cans should be able to run with the proper tires. IE, my low tech VW Prod cars run both series by removing the rear glass, ballast, and changing tires. I prefer a tire width rule,VS a wheel size rule for many reasons. Again, any hard specs may or may not come along as car counts dictate.

My short range goal is to enter 1 of my 2 Crap cans( "Crap Can -Am") into the "2013 Grassroots' Challenge" with SCCA class tags and some sort of notice about the class in SCCA for 2014.
Later, MM

[Ron Earp]

My short range goal is to enter 1 of my 2 Crap cans( "Crap Can -Am") into the "2013 Grassroots' Challenge" with SCCA class tags and some sort of notice about the class in SCCA for 2014.
Later, MM

I've participated in the Grassroots Challenge for three years. I don't see how entering crap cans in it is going to further your cause of crap can unity and SCCA racing. In fact, two of the years I ran the challenge there were crap cans there, most notably the Sanford and Son truck with the LS engine in it.

Most of the participants in the Grassroots Challenge don't have anything to do with the SCCA. The competition is run at VIR and I don't remember seeing anyone from our SCCA region at the event, it is predominantly NASA people, a few of which have crossover with the SCCA.

[Chip42]

if crapcan-loving people are at the challenge, and I expect they will be, showing them that the SCCA is embracing their cars (and, theoretically, some of their attitude) would be good advertising for the club with easy, wide-ranging exposure thanks to the draw of the event and the distribution of GRM, and help show a path to our club that those "predominantly NASA people" might take. It'd be nice to get a few more CC guys to do like wise, for a contingent of sorts.

I say good for mike on this one.

[pfcs]

circa 1983 (30 yrs ago) CalClub started Improved Touring. By 1987 it had just about taken over regional racing. (we had a 50 car ITB field once at The Glenn)
It was virtually the 1963 (20 year old) production car rules.
It was a reaction to how 20 years of "interpretation" had destroyed sportscar racing for Mr Average Competitor and created a technical money-pit.
IMO, IT is in nearly the same place.
I remember when the club made IT a "national" Regional class, and talking to Doug X, Dir of Club Racing. "we're concerned about IT-we don't want to create a junk-car class"
Well, that's certainly been averted!

Wouldn't bother me a bit to race in a Crap-Can! That's how I started, and it was good!
Bring it on!! Back to the future.

[lateapex911]

I probably don't have the multi level understanding needed of the issue, but from my 1000 foot view, I'm struggling to see the downside (except to Mike who's putting in the time and effort) and while the upsides might be debatable, I see no harm (or cost)- so unless I'm missing something, it's all good.

[Ron Earp]

I probably don't have the multi level understanding needed of the issue, but from my 1000 foot view, I'm struggling to see the downside (except to Mike who's putting in the time and effort) and while the upsides might be debatable, I see no harm (or cost)- so unless I'm missing something, it's all good.

I'm sure I have little understanding of the issue, less than you do Jake. The efforts he's making are great, I question whether or not it'll accomplish his goals. I think he wants to bring awareness of crap cans to the SCCA, I'm just pointing out that historically there hasn't been much mixing of NCR SCCA (the SCCA region which runs VIR and covers the immediate surrounding area) and NASA/Grassroots challenge. The Grassroots Challenge runs on the front end of a NASA race weekend so while some SCCA racers attend I don't think much SCCA brass is in attendance.

I would think convincing the local SCCA region that he runs in to create a crap can class would have more impact. If the local regional efforts succeed and the car counts increase, then other regions would take notice. NCR SCCA is aware of crap cans and I'm told they have discussed their inclusion in events, including the 13 hr at VIR. I don't know the outcome of the discussions but could find out.

[forestdweller37]

I think I understand what Mike is trying to accomplish. SCCA Club Racing has a perception issue. Most outside of it see it as:

1) Too difficult and expensive to get started in.
2) Overly expensive to participate in.
3) They'll be harassed by the stewards over "trivial" rules.
4) The rule book is too thick to read or understand.

Even a significant portion of the Solo community sees SCCA Club Racing as "not the way to go road racing."

As stated earlier, the GRM challenge is a very different crowd. A significant portion of the country's "crapcan" racers are also GRM readers. By taking a "crapcan" racecar emblazoned with SCCA stickers to the GRM challenge, he's trying to send the message that SCCA is a viable place for the casual would-be road racer. And he's sending it to people who aren't currently SCCA (Club Racing) customers. I wish him success.

[Flyinglizard]

The "2013 GrassRoots challenge" is not the "Ultimate Track Car challenge".
My Event is @ Gainsville raceway. It consist of, Car show, solo, drag race.

Thanks for the encouraging words.
Getting the word out about "New SCCA" is my goal. We cant get cars without advertising of some sort.
MM

[lateapex911]

I know of a few SCCA roadracers who have hit the Grassroots challenge over the years. Pretty fun event. I hope Mike does well with his goals.

[Ron Earp]

The "2013 GrassRoots challenge" is not the "Ultimate Track Car challenge".
My Event is @ Gainsville raceway. It consist of, Car show, solo, drag race.



Ooops, sorry. My bad. I mixed those two up. The Grassroots Challenge makes good sense, but I think you can see where the Ultimate Track Car Challenge I was mixed up on doesn't make a lot of sense to attend. The Ultimate Track Car Challenge runs on the front end of the NASA event at VIR in July/August.

Carry on.

[Flyinglizard]

The UTTC had a few Chumpcars. The swapped MR2-V6 won the class.


www.ogren-engineering.com/crap-can-am

Not really sure why the pages looks dirty. but it is what I have for now.
Mike Ogren/ ProtechRacing
1220 Broad St.-US 41
Crap Can AM rules, 5/13,

The intent of these rule guidelines; Allow "Crapcans" to cross over to SCCA and NASA with little hassle. The basic car should be able to be purchased for around 1000$
AS long as the car is deemed "safe" they should have a class under these rules. The Normal SCCA and NASA safety rules apply, master switch, brake lights. Most "crapcan" master switches are placed within driver reach, in the center of the car.
A stable class structure may slow the speed creep and allow a car to remain competitive for more than a couple of years .
SCCA IT cars are legal and may run with the spec tires, with no minimum weight .
Stock throttle body Production cars may run, with the spec tires, @ Prod weight..+100#
Cars clearly in the wrong class should be moved up or down at the sanctioning techs discretion.


CCU; 2.3 and under class , 225 max tire width

CCO; class(2.3 - 3.1) E 30 BMW -6 cyl , Honda products with V tec .
245 max tire width

CCA, Crap -Can-Am; All E36, all swapped, all boosted, all over 3.1liter, all cars clearly not classed per above.
All cars with tires larger than class size limit.

No max tire size.

Non stock throttle body area; = 1 class bump.


Any brake rotors or drums within 1 in. OD of stock. Stock master cyl required. Brake bias adjusters are free.

Stock suspension with any springs and shocks. Any camber as a result of slots in the knuckle or strut top.

All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.

IT fire bottle rules.

Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.



Any brake rotors or drums within 1 in. OD of stock. Stock master cyl required. Brake bias adjusters are free. Any air cooling ducts and water cooling is allowed.

Stock suspension with any springs and shocks. Any camber as a result of slots in the knuckle or strut top.

All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.

IT fire bottle rules.

Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.
1 gal or less hopper tanks/surge tanks allowed. All fuel lines passing inside of the driver compartment must be steel braided or steel tubing.

IT cage rules are the minimum. Production Car cage rules encouraged. Any tubing allowed between the front and rear fire walls. Attachment to the sill/rockers are encouraged. Driver side wheel house bar recommended.
3 driver's side bars, 2 pass side bars minimum. The lower bar may attach to the sill/rocker.

SCCA tube size to weight rules. Weight is taken as raced, with driver. ERW cages must be one size over the DOM size.

No tubing past the wheel hubs.
Some exceptions will occur, small short cars like the Honda, Miata, where the rear stays must go past the wheel hubs.

Open cars; must use arm restraints or some form of roof panel. Cars with no windshield, must use arm restraints.
Driver door must have window net.

Aero; unrestricted. Must be well attached.
3 in ground clearance rule, (includes all aero panels.)

Bodywork must be stock material ; Hood may be gutted and vented but must remain.
Interior Body panels may be lightened. Floors must be stock with holes filled.
Trunks, hatches, roofs, may be removed or gutted.
Fenders , doors, rear quarter panels, may be modified but must remain.
Exterior driver door panels may be rolled down.
Fender flares may be added over cut steel fenders.


Glass may be removed, but it is not required. "Lexan" may be used throughout. GCR, Productions sizes.
Anything that can be removed per normal "Crapcan rules" , may be removed. (Everything).
Battery placement is open. must be safe secure and covered.

Lights; 4 light assemblies max. Please keep 2 lights max straight ahead with less than 120 watts.
Max mounting height is front edge of hood plus 6in. No roof mounting.

[evanwebb]

Hey Mike, my imagination runs wild with the ideas in your rules, but what is the status of this? Is any sanctioning body actually using these rules?

[Flyinglizard]

These rules are the summery/modification of the Chumpcar rules.( and lack of)
Includes; no tire size limits
No engine size classes ( one class fits all)
2X OE cost brake rule,( pretty much any brakes.)
No min weight
swapped cars
No air control rules
Rear engine ,exFWD cars
Basically no rules.
The typical resulting cars;
The Riley V6 MX6 roadster( 3+ wins)
Nissan Z32 roadster(3-4 wins)
The swapped V6 2nd Gen MR2( 2+wins)
Turbo Hondas, Saabs, VWs ( 99 SaabT, 4-5wins)
rear engined VW turbo Pickup (0)
Many cut roof roadsters
My Turbo Jetta roadster (0)
rear engine Neon with PT 2.4 engine
Swapped BMW E 30 with M50( 1win)
RX7 wth Ford or Chev power(?wins)
Rear mounted V8 Escort
Old AS cars , Camaro,and Mustangs

yet,my Chumpy 99 Miata is not legal.( worth too much)

The rules and lack of rules are the draw to the Chump series tho. Guys like to cut stuff off of their cars. Just add some engineering lube and a sawzall and the car gets smaller.
I have to admit that the resulting cars are cool and way fast.
With my splitter, dive planes, locked diff on the Dunlops( soon Rivals) the 2000# car makes 1.2 G @ T 1 Sebring, and hits around 122 or a little over , 3 places. For less than $10,000.

The cost has gotten a little out of hand to run near the front.
A good Miata can still do top 5 at the short tracks.
The cost per race has doubled since the 2009 season. Where a fair ITB car did top 3 @ 150$per hr.
Now these cars are all around 300per.
The big tires may actually reduce the overall cost per hr ,as they can last a few races.
MM

[Chip42]

Mike - I applaud your continued efforts about this, generally LIKE the idea of a simple rule set "run whatcha brung" class, and mean absolutely no offense when I say the following:

you have some gaping holes and a few noteworthy omissions. I know the trickledown from chump stuff means you "know" what you want, but you have to treat the rules as able to exist in a vacuum. if someone decides to build a car to these rules, what is the generally acceptable limit of prep? without a "benevolent dictator" to enforce the spirit of the rules, you have to have rules that are self limiting. specifically:

"any shock and spring" combined with the allowance (hell, encouragement) to weld the cage wherever you want between wheel hubs leaves open the potential for huge spending wars on suspension- the street tires are only going to get better, making this more and more true.

speaking of spending wars, there is not a single rule about engine or trans mods. what's allowed to be done (or not) to the motor? trans? can I run a cammed-to hell, 14:1 CR, massaged head, ported to perfection, exotic material filled motor mated to a box full of specifically selected, polished, straight-cut gears and carbon synchros with a $3k differential? to blow it up a bit, can I use something like a prelude SH's trans with an active diff? what about with AWD? active center diff? and what about the ECU? sensors? data logging? active control of suspension? traction control? is ABS allowed? can it be custom? where do I send the check? I know the 1-class bump rule for cars that are "obviously" too fast exists here, but once you're into "crap-can-am," this has the potential to blow up. if that's the intent, then fine. but I did want to point it out.

most VTEC Hondas <2.3L are economy car engines, and not particularly strong motors for their displacement. a 92-95 civic Si D16Z6 != 99-00 civic Si B16A. put B series VTEC a class up, leave the rest alone. if you are REALLY spooked, bump K20's too. as there are no motor rules, can I just deactivate my VTEC system, and stay in my displacement class while running a fixed-lobe cam?

alignment adjustment via slots for the strut or at the knuckle are great for strut cars. lots of cars have SLA or other non-McStrut setups, with particular variety out back. add some allowance for them (slots at the chassis side mounting points if none as stock), or note that SLA cars are getting the short end of this rule as a matter of enforcing parity (if that is the intent).

there's some other, nitpicky stuff I could point out but, in the spirit of crapcan, I will not.

[Flyinglizard]

These are simply a summery of the "Chumpcar" rules, other than the classes.
If I get involved with this, I will have all cars submit a pro style build sheet and have a NASA style ,on site overview committee. No BS boards.

Keep in mind that SCCA will be a secondary venue for most of these cars. The Chump teams just want some more test track and track time.

All parts are supposed to be stock, all non stock parts are declared in the build sheet.
The rules will move a little for the real world situations as needed if ever.
Car count and team interest will come first. I dont want to burden Crap can teams with SCCA type rules. That is why they are where they are.

Run whatever you want. As long as the parts are stock.

If we can get a NON IT group, than the ITC and ITB cars can double dip on the 180TW tires. I would suggest that the prod group is the right place. Or the ITS/ITA group, based on lap times.
Any group with a fair range of lap times would suffice, reducing the out of class racing. IMHO.

Pizza party and beer for all 180TW cars on Sat eve.
MM

[Xian]

Minor suggestion... I'd clarify the "Honda VTEC" to "Honda DOHC VTEC". Honda offered a SOHC "VTEC" engine in the Si/EX from 92-95 (possibly later) that doesn't really make additional power over some of the comparable the SOHC non-VTEC engines. Case in point is that both the non-VTEC CRX Si and later "VTEC" 92-95 Civic Si are both classed in ITA at basically the same weight.

[Flyinglizard]

NASA is good to go.
" Must pass the safety regs"

[Ron Earp]

T
Keep in mind that SCCA will be a secondary venue for most of these cars. The Chump teams just want some more test track and track time.
MM

They can get that with TrackDaze, NASA HPDE, Track Test Days (CMP has one about every Friday), Club days, and the like. No need to even involve the SCCA.

[StephenB]

They can get that with TrackDaze, NASA HPDE, Track Test Days (CMP has one about every Friday), Club days, and the like. No need to even involve the SCCA.

I think that part of his goal is to get them into SCCA to make racing more affordable for US.

I don't always agree with you Mike but you are so ing something to help drive car counts and I appreciate that! :-)

Stephen

[Ron Earp]

I realize that. I'm being more of a devil's advocate than anything. If people are serious about getting Crapcans into the SCCA they need to work together. Mike's doing his thing, AutoXMike another, stuff on the brown board, stuff coming up at Charlotte next week - a concerted effort might get somewhere but there needs to be a plan and direction.

[Terry Hanushek]

The Jersey Racing Board (Northern New Jersey and South Jersey regions) announce LeChump classes

The purpose of these LeChump rules is to create an opportunity for cars built for ChumpCar World Series (ChumpCar) or the 24 Hours of LeMons (LeMons) to compete safely in SCCA regional races. They are intended to provide low-pressure classes without the necessity of extensive modifications to existing cars. Multiple classes are provided to foster competition, however, there is no guarantee that any specific make, model or car will be competitive.

All drivers must fully conform to SCCA driver licensing requirements. Prior LeChump racing experience may be considered for SCCA licensing but automatic license exchange is not guaranteed or contemplated. Each situation is considered on its individual merits. All driver safety gear must comply with the GCR requirements.
The rules are posted at http://www.njrrs.com/LeChump-Rules.pdf (http://www.njrrs.com/LeChump-Rules.pdf)

These rules will be initially used in our Jersey Road Racing Classic (The Jerk) on 18-20 October at NJMP. Next year they will be included in all NJRRS regional races and The Devil in the Dark 12 hour endurance race.

This is the first iteration of the rules to gauge interest. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments.

Terry

[Flyinglizard]

Looks good Terry.
If you could add in the LC3 class AKA "CrapCan-AM" it will increase the search value. CCAM has been around for a while and comes up on Googlre search as my car and other Chumpers.
Free exposure . How else can this get promoted?

I am trying to get my Chumper back together, Post Sebring. Broke the turbo intake seal after running so sweet and fast in the prior months. I hope to make the 2013 Challenge next month .
MM

[Chip42]

I like the gist of it, but I don't like the 2.3L class delineation much - for no good reason, really, and I REALLY don't like the VTEC hate. there are a FEW VTEC motors that make power outside the usual realm of their displacement - the B16, B17, B18C5, and some K20s. the rest, including ALL D-series VTEC are NOT a threat to ANY reasonable 2.3L car. I seriously doubt the B series motors are either. I'd give you nudging the B series to over 2.0L equivalency, but not 2.3.

that's the last bit of complaining I'll do on the subject. overall I'm glad regions are putting up rules to invite the guys who say we won't invite them, and I hope that they will come.

BTW, there will be a general membership advisory once we have the specifics worked out, hopefully this week and DEFINITELY this month, but I will be coordinating the oft-discussed here "race within a race" within the Central Florida Region IT ranks under the name "Street Tire Challenge" (STC). the skinny: full compliance to IT rules, a sticker, and 180TW tires, plus registering as an STC competitor on a website TBA or at the track. cars will run within their traditional IT run group during Central Florida Region sanctioned non SARRC events, finishing position among those registered will determine points by IT class (C, B, A, etc...). There will be a trophy for the top 3 in series points in each class and I'm trying to line up some sort of sponsorship deal for an award, too. this is real.

[spawpoet]

BTW, there will be a general membership advisory once we have the specifics worked out, hopefully this week and DEFINITELY this month, but I will be coordinating the oft-discussed here "race within a race" within the Central Florida Region IT ranks under the name "Street Tire Challenge" (STC). the skinny: full compliance to IT rules, a sticker, and 180TW tires, plus registering as an STC competitor on a website TBA or at the track. cars will run within their traditional IT run group during Central Florida Region sanctioned non SARRC events, finishing position among those registered will determine points by IT class (C, B, A, etc...). There will be a trophy for the top 3 in series points in each class and I'm trying to line up some sort of sponsorship deal for an award, too. this is real.



Starting in 2014? Will these sub-classes be included in any of the T.E.S. enduros? Chalk our car up as definitely interested. Thank you for the 411.

[Terry Hanushek]

Chip


I like the gist of it, but I don't like the 2.3L class delineation much - for no good reason, really, and I REALLY don't like the VTEC hate. there are a FEW VTEC motors that make power outside the usual realm of their displacement - the B16, B17, B18C5, and some K20s. the rest, including ALL D-series VTEC are NOT a threat to ANY reasonable 2.3L car. I seriously doubt the B series motors are either. I'd give you nudging the B series to over 2.0L equivalency, but not 2.3.

Thanks for the comments. We are still having debates over the final structure of the rules, primarily in the classifications. The set posted on our web site represents an interim ruleset that we needed to freeze and post for our Jersey Road Racing Classic (The Jerk) which we are holding in two weeks. There will be additional discussions over the winter.

See ya at the races

Terry

[Chip42]

Starting in 2014? Will these sub-classes be included in any of the T.E.S. enduros? Chalk our car up as definitely interested. Thank you for the 411.

Yes, be on the lookout for an email from Lee in the near future. I think adding TES would make sense, I'll find out more about any unseen pitfalls there tomorrow at the CFR District 3 monthly meeting.

[Flyinglizard]

The 2.3 break is to separate the very slow Ford 2.3 from the very fast Nissan 2.4. The 2.2 Prelude belongs with the fast group also.

There are lots of better systems for classing. This one is very close to Chump Sprint racing classes. It is based upon actual performance, not #s per CC. It is very possible that Chump took my page per new rules. These are simply based on results.
Ideally , if car count happens, we could class them from actual installed HP with bumps for swaps and mods.
The TC Honda, 240, Nissan Z31, 32, E36 , E 30,Mustang V8, V6, all are contenders for fast lap.
The Vette, and Z32 were bumped out of contention for the new rules, 2014 +.

We'll see how it plays out, if at all.

RE; S tire class. great stuff Chip. I have one of my Golfs back to IT spec engine bits, but it is missing the washer bottle and the cage is welded to the sill.
We run it in HP. and Chump.

Maybe Allow the Prod cars to run, as Goodyear has stopped making the little slicks. great time for a new tire situation for them.

Bump the prod cars one class and it will be very close. The 13 in tire is still not available tho.

The vintage cars run on some harder DOT tires also, not sure of the specs. No HOHOs for sure tho.
I will bring one or two cars for the Prod cars into Street Tire class.
FWIW the Golf goes about 2:50 on the 180 street tires, and maybe 2:46 on SRF tires or R1s.

[Chip42]

RE; S tire class. great stuff Chip. I have one of my Golfs back to IT spec engine bits, but it is missing the washer bottle and the cage is welded to the sill.
We run it in HP. and Chump.

Maybe Allow the Prod cars to run, as Goodyear has stopped making the little slicks. great time for a new tire situation for them.

Bump the prod cars one class and it will be very close. The 13 in tire is still not available tho.

The vintage cars run on some harder DOT tires also, not sure of the specs. No HOHOs for sure tho.
I will bring one or two cars for the Prod cars into Street Tire class.

hmm.. the one thing I REALLY want to avoid is actual rules modifications. as of right now, IT is fully compliant on street tires (and without washer bottles - read up!) and the beauty of this idea is that we don't do anything confusing - stickers, list, cheap tires, go race.

if we start pushing prod cars up and down classes and trying to institute some parity between prod and IT, then add vintage etc... not only is it now becoming "street tire SCCA" which is fine I guess, but it's just a mess. if someone else wants to manage it, I'll share the web space and stickers will be available. right now CFR governors are aware of the idea but their favorite part is the lack of race organizer involvement. if it gets popular enough, that might change, but for starters it has zero effect on the schedule.