Miata 1.6 Torsen

[Mseiler]

After a season and a half in ITA and two blown viscous diffs, I put a torsen in my 1.6 Miata last summer. I've now been told "I won't protest you but, you're illegal". This past weekend I would have had to replace another diff thanks to the thumps in the rear during qualifying were it not for the torsen.

Is there any support from the 1.6 drivers or objections from 1.8 drivers to seeking to allow the torsen in the 1.6?

I did not change the lsd to get an advantage other than durability and I don't see any improved performance.

I'd like to hear some thoughts before seeking to gain this exemption.

Thanks.

[Greg Amy]

Diffs are free in IT. Did you have to change something else to make it fit?

- GA

[Mseiler]

drive shaft & drive axles.

I thought they were free as well but, I have a competitor that insists that's NOT the case, since the 1.6 only came with viscous and the torsen started in 94 with the 1.8

[Greg Amy]

drive shaft & drive axles.
Yeah, that would make it technically non-compliant to the IT regs. Diffs are "free" as long as you don't have to make mods to anything else to make it fit.

Doesn't hurt to ask, but I think that was actually requested in the past and denied. It's not really a decision made through approval of your peers/competitors*, it's a decision to be made by the CRB in regard to the base IT philosophy.

- GA

* One can, effectively, gain "approval" from peers through a nudge-nudge-wink-wink-we-won't-protest-you kinda local deal, but if only a single person chooses not to accept that "gentleman's agreement" you will lose the protest and appeal.

[Mseiler]

My goal is to see if I'm the only one that would like to see it allowed and find out if there are any absolute objections out there among the ITA herd. And, if so, why.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Locally, you probably won't have a problem as long as you talk to your competitors and get their 'wink' like Greg said.. As far as getting the rule changed Nationally, I am sure you aren't going to get anywhere. Rule suggestions based on 'reliability' are not usually (can't think of any) something the ITAC/CRB approves.

Get creative. What can you do INSIDE the case to strengthen up your unit? Have you talked with some of the top Miata prep shops in SEDIV?

Are you running Mazdacomp version of the viscous or straight stock?

[Mseiler]

It's a weakness in the pinion. The viscous is fine, performance-wise. The problem is when you get bumped and the tension is released then it snaps back weakens and can break the pinion.

The suggestion I've gotten? Get a Torsen...

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's a weakness in the pinion. The viscous is fine, performance-wise. The problem is when you get bumped and the tension is released then it snaps back weakens and can break the pinion.

The suggestion I've gotten? Get a Torsen...

Upgrade or modify your pinon for strength.

[Mseiler]

as the 90-93 diff housings become more difficult to come by, a la 12A parts, it would seem to be a viable alternative.

Any other 1.6ers have an opinion or suggestion?

[Eagle7]

I think all this talk about free diffs might be misleading. The guts are free, but I don't think the housing is. Put whatever you want inside the 1.6 housing, but don't substitute the 1.8 housing.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Correct, Diff guts are free, casings are not. And obviously, axles and driveshafts are not open.

If there is a pinion strength issue, work to correct that, maybe even while trying a new FD.

[Mseiler]

What about running at 1.8L weight?

Bottom line, I don't have the engineering expertise or $$ to reinvent the 1.6L viscous LSD to make it as bullet proof as the torsen.

A driver in a 1.8 that I beat in the Saturday race ran into me twice entering T11 at CMP on consecutive laps in morning warm-up. No one called him on it and were it not for the torsen my weekend would have probably been over.(sorry, no refund, you turned a wheel). I know we are now getting lower insurance due to our "no metal to metal" rule but, that doesn't fix my diff.

[ner88]

There are Comp diffs available that fit in the 1.6 housing. call Mazda

Same with the power steering rack, it can not be de-powered, it must be a manual rack.
$560 new from Mazda, good luck finding a used one!

[RacerBowie]

When I was running my 1.6 I found that if you have the R&P cryoed and REM polished (legal, R&P are open, and "If it says you can you bloody well can") and changed the fluid EVERY. SINGLE. WEEKEND. I could get 2-3 years (15ish events) between breakages...

AND once I started having the R&Ps cryo/REMed BOTH times I broke one it was obvious abuse" jumping the everliving crap out of the turn 3 curb at Road Atlanta WFO chasing Tom Long, right after my wife spun the car in a huge way while staying on the gas.

[lawtonglenn]

...manual rack...good luck finding a used one!


no idea if these are correct or not, but you might check out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271172360249

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110991139769

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330859518930 (2 available)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221194176469 (sold)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200885262913 (sold)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181097277080 (sold)

I love eBay

[Mseiler]

thanks for the cryo and manual rack info.

Luckily I've got a manual rack in my daily driver. Not sure what I'm gonna do about the diff since my local competition is OK with it.

I'll probably approach TPTB to get a waiver, even if it fails I know it won't be done if I don't try(yes, I can relate to RP McMurphey) so if any other 1.6 drivers want to join me in the effort I'd love to have your support.

[Chip42]

speaking for myself, not the rest of the ITAC, you could have a letter from every 1.6L Miata driver in SCCA, everyone running ITA, all the stewards, a bunch of mazda engineers, and the pope, and I still wouldn't approve a change. this is bread and butter IT principle stuff and it doesn't need to change.

besides:

there are legal solutions out there.

the Miata has a track record of success.

So it's in a better spot than 60% or more of the cars in the ITCS with similar issues. Sorry Mark but this is way bigger than one car.

[tac911t]

Would a letter from the Pope's driver help? :eclipsee_steering:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4127030&postcount=5

[Dano77]

Ive been following this and it seems as though the solution is simple and makes a more effective car. Albeit will be a time consuming expensive venture.

VIN is not required in IT

1.6 car has the weak rear end due to size issues. Cant update to the better 1.8 housing,R+P, and diff. Not on the same spec line.

Change the engine to 1.8, upgrade the rear diff to the 1.8 piece, upgrade the brakes, and build a better moustrap. Besides the 1.8 car has the better airflow meter and intake.

The worst thing the OP did was ask the question. Now we all know what he is doing.

This is nothing worse than an IT7 1979 RX7 with drum brakes and small axle bearings that has upgraded to an 85 disc brake large bearing rear axle assy. or a 79 chassis with an 85 nose on it so we can get the airdam that works the best. Problem is they are all on the same spec line. Thats the issue at hand.

Just sayin'

Dan 77 IT7

[Mseiler]

speaking for myself, not the rest of the ITAC, you could have a letter from every 1.6L Miata driver in SCCA, everyone running ITA, all the stewards, a bunch of mazda engineers, and the pope, and I still wouldn't approve a change. this is bread and butter IT principle stuff and it doesn't need to change.

besides:

there are legal solutions out there.

the Miata has a track record of success.

So it's in a better spot than 60% or more of the cars in the ITCS with similar issues. Sorry Mark but this is way bigger than one car.

What about running the 1.8 weight with a 1.6? Is that a problem? As it stands I have a car that is dependable, somewhat competitive and unable to be legal in its current configuration. SCCA is promoting the "no contact" policy but, in this case, 1.6 diffs, it's allowing a finger wag punishment for an expensive "oops, sorry" situation.

This really has come about because of being whacked in warm-ups, twice by the same car in the same corner and were it not for the torsen the weekend would have probably been over and then being told my torsen was illegal.

There is a reliable solution to weak Miata diffs that doesn't require expensive repairs. If that makes me a whiner, so be it.

[ner88]

It's perfectly legal to run 1.8L weight in a 1.6 but I'll protest your Torsen if you run in ITA......:shrug:
There are alternative difs available or run another class!:dead_horse:

[Greg Amy]

This really has come about because of being whacked in warm-ups, twice by the same car in the same corner ...
There is a reliable solution to weak Miata diffs that doesn't require expensive repairs....
I've got a solution for you, and it only costs $25...and you have a very real probability of getting your $25 back: a rear-facing camera and a driver protest form.

Fix the root cause of the problem, not the symptoms.

- GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

So think the real solution for you is what Dan suggested. Convert your 1.6 to a 1.8. To be 100% legal, it will be a ton of detail work but it can happen over time.

[Chip42]

So think the real solution for you is what Dan suggested. Convert your 1.6 to a 1.8. To be 100% legal, it will be a ton of detail work but it can happen over time.

+1. running the 1.6L at 1.8L weight and calling it a 1.8L is "fine" though illegal, but you won't be running at the pointy end that way so it's less relevant. do the changes and have everything legal, plus more torque, better availability of blocks, bigger brakes, etc... win-win

[JLawton]

Not to be picky but aren't there other differences between the 1.6 and 1.8 besides the drive train? Dash board, electronics? I'm not sure, just asking.

[Dano77]

YES YES YES we know what we are doing, Leave me alone......

[Mseiler]

I never intended to be illegal and it bugs me that I am now. As I mentioned I'm not a great wrench and the pockets are shallow. The expense to fix my fix is not in this year's budget. To reclass the car(EP?) puts me out of the Carolina Cup series which is my default series.

Believe me, I'm more bugged about it than my competitors seem to be.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes Mr Jeff, that's why I mentioned the 'detail' work. It would be a tedious process but getting the drivetrain in and the ballast mounted would go a long way. That sort of stuff is much easier to overlook while headed toward legality I would think.

[Flyinglizard]

Maybe the IT board should consider adjusting to the times, alittle.
Maybe consider allowing a later part car if it is heavier and not part of the power train.And functions the same as the OE part.
We need these cars racing, not parked for shitty/broken parts.


The bigger diff is heavier and will go slower, for the Miata. Not a speed improvement at all, just a service/ dependability thing. The less often stuff breaks, the more often the car gets run.

The Mini is about the same. The car will not go any faster, just more often.

There are quite of few other instances of NLA parts. often reardrum brakes etc.
Why do we need to squeeeze these guys to Prod , Vintage, Chumpcar?

I used to consider that SCCA was member driven.
But it appears not so much.

The board should stay better connected to what the racers want.
Take a poll and ask ." Do you want updated- stronger parts allowed in your class?"

[Chip42]

Mike,

I agree with your sentiments about the car being on track and not kept off for what amount to insignificant things IN THOSE INSTANCES. The problem is that the way the IT rules are written, allowances like this can start an avalanche of similar requests. all cars have weak points, afterall.

it's a short jump from "replacement arm (mini)" to "adjustable arm" and "the updated part from the next specline of the same model car (Miata)" to "the factory's updated version that got used on another model (thinking Nissan S13-14 300ZX G45 and J30 rear ends)" to "my diff is weak, allow me something else entirely"

at that point, IT has morphed into something much more like the middle of Prod and ST, and there's no need for such a thing. IT's philosophy is there on purpose and the limited allowances in the rules, while they can certainly be an influence on winners and losers, are at the same time one of the main attractions to IT and a core reason the class is so successful.

yeah, it sucks when stuff goes NLA (some finned Aluminum brake drums). it sucks when a part from the OEM breaks regularly when raced on (1.6L OEM Miata diff). it REALLY sucks when that breaking part is NLA (MR2 and CRX hubs). I certainly don't want to tell someone to go away, but I'd certainly tell a guy who's out there having fun to figure something out and get back at it. Mark seems to have found that solution, and you are both right in that it's heavier and slower than the correct fix, and also cheaper. it's also likely that the person most upset about this is Mark himself.

but exceptions breed more exceptions. you start allowing stuff OFFICIALLY and you kill the category. Mark basically came out and said "I'm sick of my chit breaking, this is the fix that's within my budget and skillset, it's done, I'm not a threat to your championship, are you cool with that?" and I'm betting everyone on the grid said "yeah, that's cool." had it been an ISC car with an AC or JC piloting it, the reaction would likely be a bit less positive. Like when an ITB Omni shows up with no windshield wipers and metal headlight covers while overheating and running poorly - they have bigger fish to fry. yeah, they're illegal, but no one is going to do any more than point it out on that day. running for the lead, yeah, expect paper. the rules are preserved, the cars stay on track, and everyone is happy.

if you want to allow alternate whatever, prod and ST have you covered. IT makes sense as it is, deviations from that appear from my perspective to be a path to eventual demise, a death by a thousand cuts. will IT have issues to deal with when new tech cars become the norm? absolutely, as cars get heavier and more powerful we're seeing big heavy new classifications relative to the rest of the class. turbos and direct injection and the mainstreaming of variable valve timing will eventually need to be addressed in the rules or IT will be without new cars to class within the next 10 years. but the core principles will stay, I can promise you that. if that means a popular shift away from IT, then the category can be scrapped or repositioned. I'm betting that IT will remain healthy for a long time though, largely because we're so member driven and while a few are upset with a rule or protest loudly, the category continues to be one of the most subscribed by members who like the simple rules and low cost barrier to entry relative to so many other classes in W2W racing.

[Andy Bettencourt]

And there really is a way to fix this issue. Have the pinion cryo-treated to beef up it's durability. And maybe even buy the higher-performance version available from Mazda.

[JLawton]

Warts and all.....................

We've all had cars that had breakage/wear problems. You can't go giving exceptions for all of them. It's not practical.

This example is actaully an easy fix. There are several solutions........just because they're expensive doesn't mean we have to change the rules.........

Yup, STL or STU is an option too...........


:shrug:

[lateapex911]

Mike, I'm gonna disagree with you.
He can fix the issue. Why should the rules be rewritten for this thing and that thing?? Seriously, when Kirk was on the ITAC, he kept a letter of all the things like this people wrote letters about. EACH one had a good reason. (One guy who wanted to be on the committee wanted plexi allowed for his windows to make it easier for his car to make weight). At the years end, if we had approved them all, we would have had Prod classes.
We HAVE Prod classes. ANd ST classes, etc etc etc.
Seriously, if he had just gone and gotten the proper part right away, he'd be money ahead, OR if the guy hitting his ass is REALLY the issue, then protest that guy and move on.

[lateapex911]

drive shaft & drive axles.

I thought they were free as well but, I have a competitor that insists that's NOT the case, since the 1.6 only came with viscous and the torsen started in 94 with the 1.8

I don't know why you would think that they are free. Where in the rule book do you see ANY mention that would suggest that???


as the 90-93 diff housings become more difficult to come by, a la 12A parts, it would seem to be a viable alternative.

Any other 1.6ers have an opinion or suggestion?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you regarding the 12A parts. No allowance has (nor should be) made for vanishing 12A parts. There is no precedence there.
The viable alternative in this case exists in strengthening the parts or getting the performance part from Mazda.
I understand the budget issue, but sometimes a racing budget isn't spent on actual racing, greater proportions need to be diverted from the travel/entry side to the prep side that will enable more racing in the future.

[Mseiler]

The cost, nearly double, of building a 1.6 vs. the cost of a used torsen, is not to my liking but, not insurmountable. However, in talking to Mazdaspeed they told me they have no 1.6 ring & pinions and aren't sure when they'll have them. "It could take a while" was the casual estimate they gave me.

As far as rules go, I have this bad habit of trusting those who have been at this longer than I to be telling me accurate info. When I'm under the car in the paddock swapping a broken viscous diff for a spare open to make the race that afternoon and someone I know tells me to get a torsen...well, my fault I guess.

From a technical standpoint this is an easy fix. The problem, admittedly personal, is that I love running the Carolina Cup Pro Series 45 minute races with my son, we do a driver change in the 2 minute pit stop. right now we're "competitive"(someone has to finish 2nd or lower) in a class that draws as many as 9 cars in race. By going STL/STU we'd have to petition to allow that class in the series(probably easier than getting Mt. Olympus to allow the torsen) but, then we'd be in a class with far fewer participants.

It will all work out...for me(us) it's not about winning it's about having fun...this part isn't fun.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Understood. Get a rulebook and figure out what to do. Going to your locals and asking about the Torsen may be the right thing for you for now.

Understand that with a Miata, MANY people think that SM allowances cross right over to IT. That is the I am sure why you got that 'advice'.

[Dano77]

Maybe the issue can be solved with a new decal?

How far away from SM are you? The 94 and up torsen that Fixes the pinion problem, is an approved mod to a 90-93 SM. Along with axles and drive shaft.

What makes it an ITA car and how hard is it to get back to SM really. Springs, shocks, sway bars. If the motor needs freshening, buy a different block form the salvage yard and dont go 040 over with it. This is a LOT easier then converting to a 1.8 car.
It sounds as though your not at the sharpest edge of the rules for IT yet, and just want to drive the car together.

If your in a class with 9 cars at most, there are most likly more SM cars than that. Maybe the competition will also up your own driving game as well.

Good luck,

[Mseiler]

SM is one thing I've thought about, it would mean intake, exhaust and replacing the bushings I put in over the winter(DOH!) when I put an SM suspension on.

This car has been a project for 9+ years. I bought it by the side of the road and used it as my daily driver for several years working my way up from Autocross to Time Trials/Hill Climbs and now road racing. I had to take classes at the local community college to learn how to work on it...still learning. It's as much about the journey as it is getting a trophy. Those are nice but, just racing a car I pretty much built myself is a greater reward in this life where I'm just passing through anyway.

[Flyinglizard]

SM always has some good racing from all ends of the pack. Some very good, some not so much.

Great to hear of you racing with your kid.

Do whatever it takes to enjoy these times. Cux you cant buy this time back later.

If your competitors have issues with you running a heavier, slower diff, than withdraw your finish. IE if you take a podium, ask the next racer if he wants your trophy, and have a beer and go home. IMHO.
MM

[JIgou]

If your competitors have issues with you running a heavier, slower diff, than withdraw your finish. IE if you take a podium, ask the next racer if he wants your trophy, and have a beer and go home. IMHO.
MM

At the risk of giving you fuel....

That's all roses and puppies until "the" random third thing that Tech checks that weekend is the differential, and he gets popped for having a non-compliant diff in the car and has automatic points assigned to his license.

(I've seen this with my own eyes.)

[Flyinglizard]

I have seen a lot of tech guys in 30yrs. Never have I met one that would assign points for a slower part. I cant remember ever having points assigned for missing headlights, washer bottles, welded shifter bushings,etc .Just doesnt happen .
The tech may say to "please correct this for next race ."

Really have never seen much looked at regional level. Plates and weight is about it. NASA has looked at exhaust manifolds on the SM . But not SCCA.

The fellow racers are people that you have to please. We ultimately enforce the rules that affect us.
This is a club or pretty nice and reasonable people overall. Just dont be 10# underweight..

[EV]

Really have never seen much looked at regional level. Plates and weight is about it. NASA has looked at exhaust manifolds on the SM . But not SCCA.

I have seen everything from fuel samples to wheel weights checked (SM), it's regionally dependent.


This is a club or pretty nice and reasonable people overall. Just dont be 10# underweight..

Again, regionally dependent. Some of the tighter races, I have seen lots of paper thrown in mechanical protests. Some won, some lost.

[Chip42]

when a protest is registered it's on. when tech looks your car over after a race, they tend not to get nit picky about model specific parts with mixed make classes. SM or the like? yeah, they might check a final gear ratio, axles, shock PNs, etc...

VERY rare in my experience to see a very invasive tech in IT. ATL region was known for it for a while, maybe just a halo effect from the ARRC.

[JIgou]

I have seen a lot of tech guys in 30yrs. Never have I met one that would assign points for a slower part. I cant remember ever having points assigned for missing headlights, washer bottles, welded shifter bushings,etc .Just doesnt happen .
The tech may say to "please correct this for next race ."

A DQ for non-compliant parts comes with automatic point(s), doesn't it?

[Terry Hanushek]

Jarrod


A DQ for non-compliant parts comes with automatic point(s), doesn't it?

Depends - If done by the Chief Steward with a CSA, No; If done by the SOM with an RFA, Yes

Terry