Atlanta Region Pro-IT Problems

[Tom Donnelly]

Ok, this past weekend at the Road Atlanta Pro-IT post race impound, it was announced that there just might not be a Pro-IT at the next event. Or ever.

They were asking for feedback on increasing car counts.

I personally like the Pro-IT's and the car counts for other than SM are getting really thin.

Why? I dunno. We get the car counts back up and there's more money involved. And we were told there's a chance for increased sponsor money if the counts went up.

Is anybody else going to miss the Pro-IT?

And if so, how can we prevent its demise?

[JeffYoung]

Ok, this past weekend at the Road Atlanta Pro-IT post race impound, it was announced that there just might not be a Pro-IT at the next event. Or ever.

They were asking for feedback on increasing car counts.

I personally like the Pro-IT's and the car counts for other than SM are getting really thin.

Why? I dunno. We get the car counts back up and there's more money involved. And we were told there's a chance for increased sponsor money if the counts went up.

Is anybody else going to miss the Pro-IT?

And if so, how can we prevent its demise?

I think it is a victim of poor choice for Atlanta race weekends more than anything (not knocking Atlanta region, I know they are boxed in). Atlanta used to have "traditional" SARRC/PRO-IT dates in what, May and Labor Day? And those attracted big fields from all over the SEDiv. Now, as those dates have moved around, and the "big" regional weekend at RA is in the middle of July, the attractiveness of a long tow has declined.

I doubt PRO-IT can survive without a large traveling SARRC contingent. That is how the pro series in NC and SC make it work.

One thing I raised a few years ago was to try to combine PRO-IT with the pro series (only one at the time) over this way in NC. Maybe what would help get people to tow.

[Tom Donnelly]

There was talk about merging the series as well.
And questions about preferences between Charlotte and CMP.

I looked at that as raising some hope.

July is not the best time to be in Atlanta either.

[JeffYoung]

I know something of those issues/discussions, not a lot, but what I know wasn't good. Neither of the three series really wanted to budge on a few key issues important to them to make it happen.

I really think though the key to making PRO-IT work is finding an attractive date for the two RA SARRC/regional events. Right now, it's tough for anyone who races routinely in NCR or SCR, or FLA, to make the trip, which is a shame.

The Labor Day event was ideal. I know that is not possible anymore, but it is a shame it is gone.

[CRallo]

In my eyes, ProIT works if paired with a bigger event not "just" a SCCA National. Or if paired with a regional...

[chuck baader]

I think a lot of the problem this year, and the reason I'm not running, is that the SARRC schedule is so screwed up this year. I have no desire to run with the nationals crowd as most of the people I know and hang with are SARRC runners. The Majors definitely f'ed that up this year, for me anyway. :dead_horse:

[SPiFF]

This has been said for many years. IT is dead in the Atlanta region. I am sure it is more complex then we can articulate here, but in my opinion the problems are:

1) No core fast IT group in ATL today. Used the be strong in ITS with the BMWs and Z cars and OPM bring out the ITA force back in the hay day. Enough locals for a good race by themselves and people would come from all around to race them. IT center has moved to NC these days.

2) ATL region continues to put on the wrong kinds of races and the wrong times. This has been said many times but geezers refuse to change (or for reasons we don't see cannot change.)

Because of #1, people need to tow. No1 will tow for a single ProIT put in as time filler into some National race weekend jammed between a SARRC/ECR at VIR and a double SARRC at CMP. Nobody is going to tow in May to some "Rational/ProIT" jammed between the double SARRC/MARRS and a double SARRC/CCPS race weekend CMP. The "Road Africa GP" weekend in July is all SARRC and doesn't have much conflicts, yet still not well attended. Not sure why honestly. Nobody is going to tow to the ARRC when it has degenerated into a single race for every alphabet soup SCCA class in the GCR with the Goblins and 13-hour just a few weeks before.

[JeffYoung]

I think we are all saying effectively teh same thing. Pro IT needs a strong regional weekend to "attach to" to be successful. Due to scheduling issues, Road Atlanta can't do that right now.

That to me is the crux of the matter.

[dickita15]

None of my business but I will say that with the rollout of the Majors 2013 everthing is a bit messed up and much will change as the new normal is designed for 2014 as the divisions design divisional championships and all. I am not sure I would do anything rash now with the landscape changing over the next couple of years.

[SPiFF]

IMHO, the advent of The Majors is a good thing and a positive change. It will also drive a change in the regional schedules and types of races, which I think is desperately needed (at least in the SEDIV). IT racing at RA has been hurting long before the Majors was announced.

[Tom Donnelly]

My big questions are:

Where is ITS, ITA etc going to run at Road Atlanta?
There was really no other group available for my 240z this past weekend besides the ProIT.
I guess I could run EP or buy a Miata but I'd like to keep pushing forward in the 240Z.

When is there a SARRC at RA?

And..

Nobody else is going to miss the chance to actually win more than a trophy?

[seckerich]

You are correct Tom, many people do want to win more than a trophy. Atlanta's Pro IT, The Carolina Cup Pro Series (CCPS), and now the THC at VIR are examples. These races give a lot of drivers the paid race they need to have certain tax deductions for their racing effort. The Pro IT survived because of a very strong IT base in the Atlanta area through the years that has now dropped off. Most of your IT crowd are drinking the SM coolaid as are most of your past big prep shops. Many went to Grand Am and left SCCA.

What we need is one Pro series that covers NC, SC, VA, and Georgia to cover our IT core group. I leave Florida out because they have their own series that do very well and they rarely travel for SARRC, or any other series.

Set a standard payout for all the races that the host region administers for the weekend. Then have a set contribution to year end payout for champions that is paid by the regions holding races based on the number of entries they received for the year. Regions holding the races contol the funds until they are distributed to the drivers so no 3rd party is involved. We keep the travel area smaller with VIR, RA, CMP, CMS, and possibly Barber. The support comes from a bigger pot for year end payout and the draw of the other races held the same weekend. Very few drivers will travel for a single race at a not SARRC weekend.

Just tossing this out for discussion.

[Ron Earp]

What we need is one Pro series that covers NC, SC, VA, and Georgia to cover our IT core group. I leave Florida out because they have their own series that do very well and they rarely travel for SARRC, or any other series.

^^^^^
This.

We have:

SARRC
CCPS
THC
ECR
ProIT

That is too many racing series for a small pool of racers. The fracturing of the CCPS into a CCPS and THC is not good for the racers in the area. The racers don't care about the politics of the series, they would prefer to have a contiguous series they can run throughout the year at the various tracks they visit. Ditto with ProIT, it needs to exist at enough tracks to attract a critical mass of racers to keep it going, as does the ECR.

It seems like this stuff would be discussed at the Island Meeting.

[Tom Donnelly]

Steve & Ron,

I'd buy into that. It would be cool to have a "Pro-IT" across regions at several venues.

[seckerich]

Most drivers would, talk to your region leaders and lets all get together on this.

[JeffYoung]

Not saying this is a dead letter, because it shouldn't be, and not claiming total credit for the idea, but it did occur to me several years ago before the CCPS/THC split that merging with PRO IT would be a good idea.

I couldn't get anyone in either camp (all good folks) interested.

I'm sure it can be done but it will take focused effort and pressure. A lot of the roadblocks are fiefdom type stuff: pit stop v. no pit stop; payout amounts, car classes allowed, etc. All fixable. With the will.

[DavidM]

The key, as Jeff said, is tieing the ProIT (or whatever you call it) to a larger SARRC weekend. Nobody is going to come to a track just for a ProIT.

[seckerich]

First thing every region is faced with is less cars coming to races. The fixed cost of racing is the transportation and maintainance of the entire racing package. Giving drivers the chance to run more races, share a car, rent the extra race, etc means more money in the regions pocket and more drivers getting a chance to race. This keeps entry fees down and more races on the schedule. I would bet 90% of the rules for all 3 series are the same and only need a few tweaks to fit as one. :023:

[Ron Earp]

Steve, I think you're basically right. For all intents and purposes the rules are the same. These non-SARRCs are essentially longer races.

The problem is going to be territory. Tom's thinking "yeah, Pro-IT at VIR, CMP, and RRR, that's cool". While Bob is considering the merits of CCPs races at Road Atlanta and Fred is thinking it'd be great to run the THC down at CMP. Each is thinking of their own racing region and how everything is just fine. Most are not considering the big picture or overall club health.

This fiefdom stuff has to go.

The RE's (or whoever decides this stuff) need to sit down and consider what racers want. And racers, well, they need to tell the RE's what they want but from experience we know it isn't easy. In a club like the SCCA the squeaky wheels get the grease and if the squeakers are the ones affiliated with a given region's pet series, well, then there won't be any compromises.

I'd like to see a 1.5 or 2 hour race format, a series that runs all over the SE, with purse and payouts and the allowed classes included ITE (a catch all class for cars that met IT SAFETY rules) and provisions for LeChump cars. I think that would be successful and could replace the ECR, ProIT, CCPs, and the THC. It'd draw a good pool of cars, that is for sure, and for that reason it wouldn't have to cost any more than one of the aforementioned races.

We've got five great tracks in the SE - CMS, RA, CMP (shut up, it is fun), RRR (that's a stretch), and VIR, maybe even Rockingham if we removed the "great" adjective. It'd be wonderful to run SARRC and an XYZ series at all of these tracks. The fact that both series would be at all the tracks the average SE racer could get to would be a boon to entries.

[SPiFF]

We are telling the REs, with our lack of attendance. I live 45m from RA and 7h from VIR. I am planning 3 trips to VIR and 1 (maybe 2) to RA.

[Simon T.]

I'd like to see a 1.5 or 2 hour race format, a series that runs all over the SE, with purse and payouts and the allowed classes included ITE (a catch all class for cars that met IT SAFETY rules) and provisions for LeChump cars. I think that would be successful and could replace the ECR, ProIT, CCPs, and the THC. It'd draw a good pool of cars, that is for sure, and for that reason it wouldn't have to cost any more than one of the aforementioned races.



That would be awesome.

[chuck baader]

Running a series like that requires a great deal of traveling. For instance, RA is 3.5 for me (depending on traffic...could/has been 6), RR is 5.5, CMP 6.5, VIR 10.5, Barber 20min. This is the main reason I ran the ProIT the last two years...I did not have to travel great distances, which made it easier on me, my equipment, and my pocket book. I think a lot of people look at it that way.

If we did establish a common series, I can see me running a sprint version (30-45 minutes) but not anything longer. In addition, I really dislike CMP and have no intention of pulling all the way to VIR unless it becomes extremely inviting. One participant's opinion.

[Ron Earp]

Sure, this series isn't your preference but what I'm asking is for people to think of the larger picture and health of club racing.


*I believe most racers would like a series that exists at all the tracks they visit. In general I see the same people at the tracks I run and I bet an informal paddock poll would reveal they don't care to have five stickers all over their cars for five different series, particularly when one that is contiguous across the region would do.

*A series that would replace ECR/ProIT/CCPs/THC would bring the regions together, one would hope. Right now I don't see a lot of cohesiveness between the NCR, SCR, CCR, BCR, and Road Africa regions. Each does their own thing. Hell, I frankly don't know why we need five regions (there are actually more) in an area 300 miles wide, but what do I know.

*I believe that the club could benefit from embracing a larger pool of racers with the NCR SCCA's ITE rule set and a specific allowance for safe LeChump cars. There are many benefits to this approach but an obvious one is that it might get some new blood into the SCCA. I don't know what our average age is but I ain't young and you're racing on social security.

*And it'd be cool.

Heck, maybe in some way tie it to the ARRC, or called it the ARRC series, and bring back meaning to the ARRC.

[seckerich]

Running a series like that requires a great deal of traveling. For instance, RA is 3.5 for me (depending on traffic...could/has been 6), RR is 5.5, CMP 6.5, VIR 10.5, Barber 20min. This is the main reason I ran the ProIT the last two years...I did not have to travel great distances, which made it easier on me, my equipment, and my pocket book. I think a lot of people look at it that way.

If we did establish a common series, I can see me running a sprint version (30-45 minutes) but not anything longer. In addition, I really dislike CMP and have no intention of pulling all the way to VIR unless it becomes extremely inviting. One participant's opinion.

Would not be much different Chuck. Many in the other series just run the ones at their local track and get the per race payout. Some choose to run the series and get the added bonus of year end money. Everybody wins because the extra entries picked up from out of town drivers fill the field and make it viable for the region to host. Not happening now for Atlanta and we are all just tossing out ideas to help.

[JeffYoung]

Sure, this series isn't your preference but what I'm asking is for people to think of the larger picture and health of club racing.


*I believe most racers would like a series that exists at all the tracks they visit. In general I see the same people at the tracks I run and I bet an informal paddock poll would reveal they don't care to have five stickers all over their cars for five different series, particularly when one that is contiguous across the region would do.

*A series that would replace ECR/ProIT/CCPs/THC would bring the regions together, one would hope. Right now I don't see a lot of cohesiveness between the NCR, SCR, CCR, BCR, and Road Africa regions. Each does their own thing. Hell, I frankly don't know why we need five regions (there are actually more) in an area 300 miles wide, but what do I know.

*I believe that the club could benefit from embracing a larger pool of racers with the NCR SCCA's ITE rule set and a specific allowance for safe LeChump cars. There are many benefits to this approach but an obvious one is that it might get some new blood into the SCCA. I don't know what our average age is but I ain't young and you're racing on social security.

*And it'd be cool.

Heck, maybe in some way tie it to the ARRC, or called it the ARRC series, and bring back meaning to the ARRC.
Make it so. Write up a proposal for a 1 hour race series to replace the ECR and other non-SARRC races and let's see if we can get any interest in the northern half ot the SEDiv.

1 hour races
Sedans/productin based cars only (including as you note ITE and safe Chumpemons cars, no SRFs)
One 3 min pit stop
VIR, CMP, Charlotte, Road Atlanta, Roebling

Sell it to the PRO IT, THC and CCPS admins first.

[SPiFF]

SPiFF Racing would run that series.

[seckerich]

You lose a good portion of entries if you exclude SRF. 45 minutes was set as a distance all cars could make without refueling. Have to think it through a little more Jeff. You never run any of the mentioned series so you need to get some more information before you design the perfect series. :p 45 minutes is also the sweet spot for fitting it in a tight race schedule.

[Ron Earp]

I agree that 45 mins might be easy to schedule, but I think you can have a larger draw with the 1 or 1.5 hour format. The longer format allows for a team to have two drivers which makes it more attractive to a larger pool of racers. I too think you can't exclude SRFs. There are a lot of those cars around and they'd be important for entries.

[JeffYoung]

You lose a good portion of entries if you exclude SRF. 45 minutes was set as a distance all cars could make without refueling. Have to think it through a little more Jeff. You never run any of the mentioned series so you need to get some more information before you design the perfect series. :p 45 minutes is also the sweet spot for fitting it in a tight race schedule.

Actually I've run all of those series other than PRO-IT.

I did 1 hour because that gives an even 30/30 split for two drivers, and the 3 min stop because that is plenty of time to switch drivers and put 5 gallons in teh car. How do I know? I've run a lot of ECRs over the years and a 5 min stop involves a lot of waiting.

Scheduling I don't know much about other than being on the driver end of it, which is why I went 1 hour rather than 90 minutes.

I think SRFs probably hurt attendance as much as the help. ECRs can attract 5 or 6 or 7, but the CCPS or TCS? Not so much. And I don't think PRO IT allows them. They are the primary reason I don't run CCPS, and I think that is true for a lot of S drivers.

[chuck baader]

"Would not be much different Chuck. Many in the other series just run the ones at their local track and get the per race payout. Some choose to run the series and get the added bonus of year end money. Everybody wins because the extra entries picked up from out of town drivers fill the field and make it viable for the region to host. Not happening now for Atlanta and we are all just tossing out ideas to help."

Ron, this is exactly what I have done for the last two years. Participation, however, has waned to the extent that I would rather run the SARRC series without payout.

[Tom Donnelly]

How about the 2 race in one format?

45 minutes for the sprint and 1.5 for the enduro,
run at the same time like at the ARRC.

For those that don't have a co-driver.

I'd run a 1.5 by myself but the brakes are shot well before 1.5 on my car.

And I'd like to stay away from the invisible SRF's.

[Chip42]

To Steve's point, and he knows a lot more about this part than most of us, scheduling a 1h race on top of the 8 groups often seen these days at a sarrc weekend is a challenge. I agree that 15 minutes doesn't sound like a lot, but when you consider that all of the listed tracks have some sort of required quiet times at night / for god / funeral processions / chicken farm inspections whatever, 15 minutes can be the difference between getting it in and getting bumped.

maybe 45 mins minimum, with 3 min stop means 2x21min driver stints, and less pit time. throw in a couple of "special" events that are 1.0 or 1.5 hours in length, maybe the 3 hour ARRC endure as a capstone. that'd be groovy.

and I agree, no sports racers.

If this gets done, I'll like the idea of moving to NC more and more. anyone have a job for an ME in the RT/Asheville/Charlotte triangle?

[seckerich]

How about the 2 race in one format?

45 minutes for the sprint and 1.5 for the enduro,
run at the same time like at the ARRC.

For those that don't have a co-driver.

I'd run a 1.5 by myself but the brakes are shot well before 1.5 on my car.

And I'd like to stay away from the invisible SRF's.

This is what we are doing this year at our Charlotte Motor Speedway race. We will run the ECR (1.5 hr) and the CCPS at the same time and just checker the CCPS at 45 minutes. It also happens at night under full speedway and infield lighting. :026:

Last year we ran the CCPS under the lights with SRF and a capacity field with no contact reported.

We have tried the 1.5 hour races in our area as stand alone as Jeff mentions, it is called ECR and has had a tough time filling fields for the last 5 years or so. The 45 minute races seem to be the sweet spot to fit in a schedule and still make it pay for the region. Takes a lot of cars to justify 2 plus hours of track time for a single and over 4 for a double ECR. The other racers get shafted for track time and don't show. Cold hard reality is bring the numbers if you think you want no SRF, or put on the big boy pants and race like you do at the 13 hour.

[bamfp]

I dislike the race in a race idea. Pick one.

[Tom Donnelly]

I have my preferences, but my biggest preference is having a place to race with a decent field of cars. I'll adapt if need be to what we end up with.

But I'd like us to end up with something.