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Andy Bettencourt
12-19-2012, 09:08 PM
What would everyone build if they couldn't do a FWD HondAcura or a Miata? I am looking for something different.

I think the chassis limits (other than year) are gone other than the Lotii. So who has some fresh ideas?

FD RX-7 with Mazda 1.8?
NSX with 2.0L Acura?
240SX with 2.0L Nissan?

tyler raatz
12-19-2012, 10:53 PM
The FD would be interesting and pretty cool.

How would an NSX work with little class legal brakes, skinny tires and 7" wide wheels? Might work well, could be teh suk.

If i were doing a 240sx, I would lobby for the non us-spec SR16ve or find a way to make power with a ca18de. The motor seems to have potential, do a good set of custom cams, solid shim under bucket lifters etc. I think either engine has much better power to weight potential than a 2.0, the weigh is just too damn high for 2.0L RWD.

Jeff Young has tossed around the idea of a 90's era Lotus Elan. FWD, and Strut front end on a tiny car would make for a killer light weight package if the engine could make decent power.

I think a VW Corrado with a 1.8 5 valve may have potential, but my VW knowledge ends with A1 chassis cars and 2 valve 1.8's:shrug:

CRallo
12-19-2012, 11:02 PM
STL, I'm assuming? I'm all for the latter. But a VE if I can get it!!

CRallo
12-19-2012, 11:03 PM
Crappy to disallow Lotus cars I must say :(

Chip42
12-20-2012, 12:28 AM
the FWD elan with a "Lotus" 2ZZ-GE. unf. if you can keep oil pressure in it and tires under it...

Was dreaming of a MR2 Spyder with the 2ZZ but that's 2515#s now - and that's a lot of lead in a ZZW, I don't care if I CAN put it anywhere I want.

So I'm all about an MZR LF Protege or early 6 or 3. 2633 lbs (which yeah, is F'ing heavy), easy 200 whp, mazda, modern, mazda, plentiful engine cores, mazda, everywhere you look cars, did I mention mazda?, good support for the 'gay and the 6 in AWR and cork and from the teams from the WC Touring heyday, mazda, good handling, known chassis, mazda...

Andy Bettencourt
12-20-2012, 09:15 AM
the FWD elan with a "Lotus" 2ZZ-GE. unf. if you can keep oil pressure in it and tires under it...

Was dreaming of a MR2 Spyder with the 2ZZ but that's 2515#s now - and that's a lot of lead in a ZZW, I don't care if I CAN put it anywhere I want.

So I'm all about an MZR LF Protege or early 6 or 3. 2633 lbs (which yeah, is F'ing heavy), easy 200 whp, mazda, modern, mazda, plentiful engine cores, mazda, everywhere you look cars, did I mention mazda?, good support for the 'gay and the 6 in AWR and cork and from the teams from the WC Touring heyday, mazda, good handling, known chassis, mazda...

So I forgot about the brake number, will have to look into that. 290mm. Just throwing this out there, does it make sense to have the same limits for the same weights? I still wonder if having a limit in size tied to cc's is more fair. Cars with over 1000lbs difference can use the same size brakes.

I was never a fan of that 'Lotus'...:) What MZR are you talking about?

Chip42
12-20-2012, 11:33 AM
MZR LF is the 2.0L, biggest thing you can drop in to STL. in a protege (strut front) or 3 (strut front I think) it's a 2633# car, in a 6 it's 2700# (SLA front).

yeah, brakes are possibly an issue for the heavy cars, relatively speaking, but frankly maxed brakes on a light car with DOT tires of a max 225 section means you probobly have more brake than you can use - so there's likely a middle ground.

Matt93SE
12-20-2012, 12:02 PM
Buy my 240SX and drop your engine of choice in it. ;)

has 'cheap' coilovers on it, but otherwise chassis is pretty much there.
brakes are done, cage is done, interior is as stripped as you're going to get it.

Buy the car and spares, and it will include an Autronic SMC ECU already programmed for a 450hp SR20DET. drop in an SR and haul ass in STU. choke it down and run in STL..

Andy Bettencourt
12-20-2012, 12:36 PM
MZR LF is the 2.0L, biggest thing you can drop in to STL. in a protege (strut front) or 3 (strut front I think) it's a 2633# car, in a 6 it's 2700# (SLA front).

yeah, brakes are possibly an issue for the heavy cars, relatively speaking, but frankly maxed brakes on a light car with DOT tires of a max 225 section means you probobly have more brake than you can use - so there's likely a middle ground.

Agreed, which makes you wonder why a brake limit at all. I read today that the OEM brakes on the FD are 292mm. Naturally.

tyler raatz
12-20-2012, 12:41 PM
Agreed, which makes you wonder why a brake limit at all. I read today that the OEM brakes on the FD are 292mm. Naturally.

That's no big deal, throw the rotors on a lathe and machine off 2mm from the OD, taper the outer edge of the pads to match. You will never miss that 2mm of rotor.

bamfp
12-20-2012, 01:01 PM
Did we decide if you can take a turbo off an engine to run in STL?


Mazda 323 GTX without the turbo
Honda Civic wagon RTAWD with a B swap

Are VW and Porsche considered like makes. Some Porsche cars come with VW engines in them and VW owns some % of Porsche.

Boxster with a VW engine

Chip42
12-20-2012, 01:09 PM
VW in a Pcar is explicitly legal from a fastrack this or last year. VW in boxter = legal.

Chip42
12-20-2012, 02:30 PM
Did we decide if you can take a turbo off an engine to run in STL?

I'm pretty sure thats been declared legal.

Robbie
12-21-2012, 10:19 PM
The FD would be interesting and pretty cool.

How would an NSX work with little class legal brakes, skinny tires and 7" wide wheels? Might work well, could be teh suk.

If i were doing a 240sx, I would lobby for the non us-spec SR16ve or find a way to make power with a ca18de. The motor seems to have potential, do a good set of custom cams, solid shim under bucket lifters etc. I think either engine has much better power to weight potential than a 2.0, the weigh is just too damn high for 2.0L RWD.

Jeff Young has tossed around the idea of a 90's era Lotus Elan. FWD, and Strut front end on a tiny car would make for a killer light weight package if the engine could make decent power.

I think a VW Corrado with a 1.8 5 valve may have potential, but my VW knowledge ends with A1 chassis cars and 2 valve 1.8's:shrug:
That Élan has double wishbones all around.

I'd think long and hard About a Mk2 MR2 with a 3S-GTE or getting a 3S-GE made legal.

lawtonglenn
12-22-2012, 10:15 AM
That's no big deal, throw the rotors on a lathe and machine off 2mm from the OD, taper the outer edge of the pads to match. You will never miss that 2mm of rotor.

cmon... that's a whopping 1/4 sqin of swept area... worth at least a second per lap! :D

.

Chip42
12-22-2012, 02:32 PM
That Élan has double wishbones all around.

I'd think long and hard About a Mk2 MR2 with a 3S-GTE or getting a 3S-GE made legal.

yup - 97ish JDM Gen 3 3SGE from the MR2 G Limited would be my choice. though a de-truboed GTE migt do very well too.

either way, at 2800 #s, that's a lot of MR2 to haul about.

Xian
12-29-2012, 09:21 PM
Hmmmm... K20 powered S2000 an option? What about an MX3 with one of the hottish engine options thrown out above? 1st Gen MR2 with the 2ZZ? Isn't there a 20v JDM engine that will bolt in (if it were legal)? Maybe the 90/91 Corolla GTS?

Dano77
01-02-2013, 12:20 PM
MZR in the late eighties protege 323 GTX. Thats a pretty cool idea. Or Even the later Protege AWD with a New MZR

Chip42
01-02-2013, 02:14 PM
Hmmmm... K20 powered S2000 an option? What about an MX3 with one of the hottish engine options thrown out above? 1st Gen MR2 with the 2ZZ? Isn't there a 20v JDM engine that will bolt in (if it were legal)? Maybe the 90/91 Corolla GTS?

the S2000 is excluded from STL, so no dice there.

Christian hit on an oldy but goldy in 1st gen MR2 with a 20V. it is the easiest option on that chassis, and with the most recent round of OMG RWD!!!!!11 adder changes, it's now 2236# (RWD 1600cc). previously, it was too much car for the motor, now it's an option. (I have my fat ass in the ITB car at 2335 with over 25# in ballast and no etreme lightening efforts). Not worth the effort for the 2ZZ/AW11 combo, IMHO. the 20V 4AGE has a way better head than the 16v, not just because of the extra valves, making it on par with the B16 in specific output.

hell - a 20V 4AGE in the MR2 spyder chassis sounds pretty compelling now. ZERO issues with weight, that's for sure.

mossaidis
01-02-2013, 02:52 PM
I think the S2000 chasis is fine in STL, the S2000 motor is not.

Chip42
01-02-2013, 04:50 PM
yup, I was wrong. was on the illegal chassis list earlier this year, I guess I didn't notice or forgot that they allowed it.

JeffYoung
01-02-2013, 09:33 PM
I've done some poking around on the Elan. Double wishbone, pretty damn awesome stock suspension. VEry short wheelbase, very good aero (factory hardtop available).

The N/A 1.6 Isuzu motor made 130 hp stock. Not much build data out there on it, but I talked to a local Mazda four cylinder guy and he thought it ought to do as least as well as the Mazda and Honda 1.6s.

I think the car has a chance if someone spends the money on it. Great basic suspension design, good aero, short wb, decent power/torque, lightweight.

You can get a decent car for 10k. I bet you spend another 30-40k making it nationally competitive though.

Chip42
01-03-2013, 11:39 AM
and, being a lotus, you could drop in other more common lotus power plants, such as the 2ZZ-GE toyota that keeps popping up.

you could possibly argue an allowance to use the next gen version of the Isuzu 4XE1 motor which was sold in the JDM gemini coupe or piazza/USDM storm GSi/USDM impulse (canada got some too). these would be much more common than the loti. I say possibly because the swap rules with mixed marques/badges are a mess.

JeffYoung
01-03-2013, 09:15 PM
and, being a lotus, you could drop in other more common lotus power plants, such as the 2ZZ-GE toyota that keeps popping up.

you could possibly argue an allowance to use the next gen version of the Isuzu 4XE1 motor which was sold in the JDM gemini coupe or piazza/USDM storm GSi/USDM impulse (canada got some too). these would be much more common than the loti. I say possibly because the swap rules with mixed marques/badges are a mess.

I don't think you can. Read the STL engine swap rule. You can use any engine by the chassis manufacturer. Lotus didn't make the 2zz, Toyota did. The Lotus 2.2s are too big for STL.

I don't see a rule allowing other engines by the engine manufacturer, so the other Isuzu engines are out.

Chip42
01-04-2013, 01:02 AM
right, because the elise is forbidden. more and more the mantra seems to be:

build honda, win, have beer.

though runoffs results would disagree.

Robbie
01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
and, being a lotus, you could drop in other more common lotus power plants, such as the 2ZZ-GE toyota that keeps popping up.

you could possibly argue an allowance to use the next gen version of the Isuzu 4XE1 motor which was sold in the JDM gemini coupe or piazza/USDM storm GSi/USDM impulse (canada got some too). these would be much more common than the loti. I say possibly because the swap rules with mixed marques/badges are a mess.

I don't think you want the 1.8. It's a better motor stock than the 1.6, but there's a lot of unique parts for them and Isuzu doesn't sell a lot of them anymore. Rod bearing are one example. So you'd have to buy a lot of spare motors. Even then, the head is no different aside from hydraulic lifters and the block is an inch or so taller to accommodate the additional stroke.

Chip42
01-05-2013, 08:35 PM
despite the obviousness of building one of the many discussed honda variants, I haven't seen many out there. today at sebring the2013 opener Majors/national/BFG super tour "Big F'n Deal" weekend had only crossover IT miatas, RX7s, and Peter K's integra (which is a real STL car but not a monster build as far as I know). PK ran strong but Andrew "Von C" Charbaneau won in an ISC miata (ITS car). I expected more real STL cars, and Jim Drago to place higher - though to be fair he had his SM car doing double duty, not the purpose built STL car.

I'm really liking the idea of a 20V 4AGE toyota in an MR2 spyder. assuming they allowed the engine, that could be a really hot setup.

Xian
01-05-2013, 09:40 PM
Yep. Definitely some cool options for the class but I'd still look at building a B16 powered CRX. ;)

adamjabaay
01-06-2013, 10:11 PM
several of us are dude....haha

Bill Miller
01-08-2013, 11:21 AM
I'll preface this by saying that I have not read through the STL rules, so I don't know all the ins and outs. I'm curious as to why the folks looking at Toyota mills are not looking at the 4A-GE. Are the STL prep limits that restrictive to get sufficient power out of one? And it's too bad the AE86 Corolla is too old, as that seems like it would be a great STL car.

Chip42
01-08-2013, 01:55 PM
Bill, the "big port" 4A-GE suffers from it's restrictive intake, the small port less so, but both have poor port design no matter what class you put it in. while the 4A motors share many nominal dimensions with the honda B16, preppared to the STL limits of cam lift and compression the 16V 4AGE would still make roughly 15-20% less power than the honda. the 20V 4AGE has a much better head design despite the complexity of the extra valves, and can get into B16 specific output territory.

gotta shoot for the target.

Bill Miller
01-09-2013, 01:21 AM
Thanks Chip. Like I said, I haven't read up on the STL rules.

What's a realistic power expectation for an STL B16A?

Chip42
01-09-2013, 10:08 AM
roughly 180 crank is what I'd imagine... hell we got about that much in ITS without trying too hard. I'd think guys like Blake could massage even more from it, though the B16 is pretty much right on the STL max as delivered for lift and CR, the cam profile may be changed and there's all the ignition and ECU mods that you can do so there's probobly a bit more in there.

mossaidis
01-09-2013, 11:10 AM
don't forget about .040 overbore, crank pulley, AC/PS delete, forged pistons, value springs, possible VTEC delete and other legal STL tricks. I would *hope* 175+ at the wheels. Others have mentioned 185whp, yet no one will know until someone builds it and show us the dyno sheet from a trusted source.

prodogdriver
01-09-2013, 03:38 PM
Excuse my hi-jacking but with all this talk of building the Honda B16… I have that drive train in my ’99 (ex-SSC) Si and I would be willing to sell the motor & trans. Located in northern Indiana

mossaidis
01-10-2013, 12:10 PM
miles on the motor?

prodogdriver
01-11-2013, 10:53 AM
My Civic is a showroom stock car & did not see any street miles, I will check the log book to see how many events are on it.
No races the last two years as the car sat out while I campaigned an STU car

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu340/maxjones2009/th_timeattackday001.jpg (http://s661.photobucket.com/albums/uu340/maxjones2009/?action=view&current=timeattackday001.jpg)

click this pic for a larger view

prodogdriver
01-12-2013, 02:57 PM
The engine had a complete rebuild in 9/05 ( I have the receipt )
18 races over the next 5 years with just one race in 2010
Autocrossed 4 times summer of 2012, engine runs great and has very good power
I have a new clutch that goes with it

I’m thinking $2000 for a complete swap USDM eng/trans/ECU/linkage or $1200 for just the engine

adamjabaay
01-13-2013, 10:12 AM
Where in northern indiana are you? A buddy might be interested. I'm on the border south of Chicago

prodogdriver
01-14-2013, 01:43 PM
South bend, IN. so just a straight shot east on I80, about an hour from the Ill state line. Pm if you want to take a look at it

jdrago1
01-20-2013, 04:53 PM
I expected more real STL cars, and Jim Drago to place higher
Tough crowd:shrug::D

I ran the SM, was fortunate that PK had issues both days, really was just hoping to get on the podium one of the two days.

Really debating my STL car. I really think after this season shakes out, my Miata will be a tail of the lead pack or beginning of pack two type of car at the Runoffs. Time will tell. I am thinking about an 06 up car, but not sure I have the time or energy to build one.