Lrp 2013

[ner88]

Well, I finnaly got available dates from Lime Rock.
Looks like NER will be holding our regional on June 21 & 22 and the NARRCoff will be on September 20&21.
Because of multiple conflicts these are the only dates that will work!
So, my question to you is, the NER regional format:
We have been running a drivers school/single qualifying schedule on Friday and two regional races on Saturday.
Would no drivers school and two qualifying/test sessions be more desirable on Friday?
:shrug:

[Greg Amy]

Can we offer a second driver's school at NHMS? Or would we be stuck with only one driver's school this year? And if the latter, is that necessarily a bad thing?

[lawtonglenn]

I think it is more important to make it easy for new drivers to join ... keep the driver's school

[Andy Bettencourt]

One of the factors to note is that Jersey has added a school in recent years JUST before the NER one at NHMS. So if you needed 2 schools, you could be done by May 1.

Food for thought.

[Greg Amy]

And, as I recall, Summit has one nearby that timeframe as well...and then there's the one at Watkins Glen in the Fall...

The 2-day limit at LRP really screws with trying to run multiple events there.

[BruceG]

Would be tough to lose the one drivers school at LRP for folks who live close to the track(big audience in CT/NY) and might want to rent/or tow cars to their first drivers school close to home. The other issue is NH weather earlier in the spring for a drivers school at NHMS.

[Drew M]

Running with the school and the regional can be a little confusing, but in the past, I've used it as a test day when I'm also running the regional. It is never advertised as a test day, but I've always been welcomed to participate. I think I've run that school a total of 3 or 4 times.

On the other hand, a double regional wouldn't be a bad idea, so long as the entry fee isn't through the roof.

[ner88]

Both NJMP and Summit have requested drivers schools on March 23&24???:shrug:

Last year we (NER) had 6 cars at NHMS and 23 at LRP, these schools were only 2 weeks apart. LRP is closed wheel only and NHMS had 1 open wheel car....
Would the LRP students have been more likely to go to NHMS earlier, if we didn't have the LRP school??? How many were new/unlicensed students?
We can't add a second school group to the LRP event and still run qualifying.

Also, keep in mind, SCCA offers new alternative schools for those who have some experience.

[ner88]

Would be tough to lose the one drivers school at LRP for folks who live close to the track(big audience in CT/NY) and might want to rent/or tow cars to their first drivers school close to home. The other issue is NH weather earlier in the spring for a drivers school at NHMS.
No snow at NHMS on Memorial Day! (thats when the school was)

[ner88]

Running with the school and the regional can be a little confusing, but in the past, I've used it as a test day when I'm also running the regional. It is never advertised as a test day, but I've always been welcomed to participate. I think I've run that school a total of 3 or 4 times.

On the other hand, a double regional wouldn't be a bad idea, so long as the entry fee isn't through the roof.
Please explain "through the roof"!
Do the math...rental fee plus feeding folks....just south of $70K...and I haven't seen 2013 rental fees!:D

[Drew M]

Please explain "through the roof"!
Do the math...rental fee plus feeding folks....just south of $70K...and I haven't seen 2013 rental fees!:D

~$600 per car/driver for the weekend

[BruceG]

No snow at NHMS on Memorial Day! (thats when the school was)

Ooops///brain fart....I tried,Though.....LOL.

[1stgen]

2 cent$
Lime rock is home to most everyone's first trackday...with that said making the transition from trackdays to race school feels more comfortable at a track they are familiar with. To be honest NHMS is so terrible I only race there, And even then only for NARRC.
Lime rock is also a mostly forgiving track compared to New Hampshire..I'm sure some people will disagree with me but I will think your wrong.
It's close to the city and where most of your racers will be coming from.
There were 6 cars at the April school at NHMS there were over 20 at lime rock.
Lime rock is in June and the weather is usually spot on.
With all that said its an easier day for most at lrp as well, close to home and an easy tow to get there.
Keep the lime rock school
PS...do you really need an extra practice and qualifier? Car setup should be good to go on race day...not really making any changes the day before a race.

[Gregg]

Both NJMP and Summit have requested drivers schools on March 23&24???:shrug:
That's Summit's traditional weekend. The NJMP date has already been moved to April 6/7.

The Summit school has been a double for the past few years. Jersey's was a double this year.

[BruceG]

2 cent$
Lime rock is home to most everyone's first trackday...with that said making the transition from trackdays to race school feels more comfortable at a track they are familiar with. To be honest NHMS is so terrible I only race there, And even then only for NARRC.
Lime rock is also a mostly forgiving track compared to New Hampshire..I'm sure some people will disagree with me but I will think your wrong.
It's close to the city and where most of your racers will be coming from.
There were 6 cars at the April school at NHMS there were over 20 at lime rock.
Lime rock is in June and the weather is usually spot on.
With all that said its an easier day for most at lrp as well, close to home and an easy tow to get there.
Keep the lime rock school
PS...do you really need an extra practice and qualifier? Car setup should be good to go on race day...not really making any changes the day before a race.

What I tried to say.....LOL.

[ner88]

2 cent$
Lime rock is home to most everyone's first trackday...with that said making the transition from trackdays to race school feels more comfortable at a track they are familiar with. To be honest NHMS is so terrible I only race there, And even then only for NARRC.
Lime rock is also a mostly forgiving track compared to New Hampshire..I'm sure some people will disagree with me but I will think your wrong.
It's close to the city and where most of your racers will be coming from.
There were 6 cars at the April school at NHMS there were over 20 at lime rock.
Lime rock is in June and the weather is usually spot on.
With all that said its an easier day for most at lrp as well, close to home and an easy tow to get there.
Keep the lime rock school
PS...do you really need an extra practice and qualifier? Car setup should be good to go on race day...not really making any changes the day before a race.
Well I want to agree but I can't..I would never consider LRP forgiving, probably one of the most dangerous tracks we race on!
It's not home to most, a large majority come from up north and travel much further than the Ct or NY folks.
Do you need an extra practice/qual. ?
I'm trying to offer the racers more track time for their money!
I don't know about you but I don't race LRP because test time is so expensive and you get so little track time for your $.
Schools are a lot of work for a lot of people to put on and certainly should not be done at a track that's cost per minute is higher than anyother!
Didn't someone just say they join the school for track time???:blink:

[Andy Bettencourt]

If you really think it through, the comment might have merit. While NHMS is certainly a more forgiving TRACK than Lime Rock, running a school there is a lot more hectic with more car-to-car incidents due to the nature of the corners. NHMS has more accidents like that while LRP has more single car crashes. LRP is easier to stay out of trouble if you drive within yourself.

So why not blow up the NHMS school and keep the LRP one with that test-day run group that has proven so successful?

[1stgen]

If you really think it through, the comment might have merit. While NHMS is certainly a more forgiving TRACK than Lime Rock, running a school there is a lot more hectic with more car-to-car incidents due to the nature of the corners. NHMS has more accidents like that while LRP has more single car crashes. LRP is easier to stay out of trouble if you drive within yourself.

So why not blow up the NHMS school and keep the LRP one with that test-day run group that has proven so successful?

Thank you for putting it a little more eloquently for me.....
Lime rock IS forgiving....driver error is NOT.
Most first time racers I have found are NOT from up north. You want new racers, not people who want to fill the school for seat time. Or am I seeing this incorrectly?
I did my race school at lime rock and was licensed that day and was able to get my first race in on Saturday. Lime rock is my home track though and I do only live an hour away. I personally prefer the glen but that's not where you do the school.

[jrem72]

If the NER Regional and School is the above mentioned date any idea when the traditional MoHud John Stim National is scheduled?

[lawtonglenn]

On the other hand, a double regional wouldn't be a bad idea, so long as the entry fee isn't through the roof.


the current setup is already a double regional... one qual on Fri + two races on Sat

the proposed alternative is also a double regional ... two qual on Fri + two races on Sat

there is no option for an additional race on Fri ... no racing on Fri at LRP is the rule

so to repeat Jerry's original question "do you want to trade the Fri school for a second qual"

I vote no

[ner88]

We don't need two drivers schools for 29 drivers!
NER is the only region in the country that runs two schools.
There are too many opportunities and ways available to get a racing license.
The issue is NHMS or LRP?
If you want to attend our school you will have to make the date regardless as to where.
Being that they are only a few weeks apart, weather is not the issue, it comes down to what makes the most sense.
Having been on the operational side of many of these schools, NHMS is far more user friendly and our chief instructor and many of our lead instructors are from the north.
We can also accomadate open wheel cars there as well.
Ok, argue we are not being user friendly to the new drivers well what do you tell all the folks who spend their time and money to make the schools possible?
29 Drivers (and some may be from the north) or over 100 volunteers!

What I was offering was more LRP tracktime for our racers (which is very limited this year) but if you don't want it, fine by me!
I get paid the same either way! :D:happy204:

[ner88]

Glenn, you're saying you don't want more tracktime at LRP? :rolleyes:

MoHud is not running an event at LRP in 2013, scheduling and costs, are making it a no-go at this writing.

[jrem72]

Does that mean no National at LRP? Where will we see Nationals in the Northeast?

[Terry Hanushek]

Does that mean no National at LRP? Where will we see Nationals in the Northeast?

Currently, a Major, National or Rational is scheduled at each track in NEDiv with the exception of LRP.

Terry

[lawtonglenn]

Glenn, you're saying you don't want more tracktime at LRP? :rolleyes:




oh ... I guess if you forced it on me :) ... I was just thinking that I would easily forgo a
qual session if it meant we were somehow making it easier for more new drivers to join the ranks...

:shrug:

[gran racing]

Why are you asking if you've already made up your mind? ;)

Based on participation numbers and opinions provided here, LRP was the vote for the school.

[StephenB]

I would rather see a school mixed in if it meant our entry fee was $100 bucks less each and we only lost 20 minutes of track time. (basically keeping the school would hopefully keep the same entry fee as last year). My thought is that if you get rid of those 20+ cars then our entry fee has to go way up to afford the rent. Unless I am missing something here. Sadly for me money talks if we compare a potential 25% increase in the entry fee without the school.

Stephen

[dickita15]

The only problem with running the lime rock school only is it shuts out the open wheel guys.
The options for lime rock are:
Run what we did the last few years. Closed wheel school plus for the regional one qualifying on Friday and two races on Saturday.
No school and for the regional one qualifying on Friday and two races on Saturday plus some test sessions at an additional fee.
No school, two sessions on Friday and two races on Saturday at a slightly higher price than above.

[dickita15]

I would rather see a school mixed in if it meant our entry fee was $100 bucks less each and we only lost 20 minutes of track time. (basically keeping the school would hopefully keep the same entry fee as last year). My thought is that if you get rid of those 20+ cars then our entry fee has to go way up to afford the rent. Unless I am missing something here. Sadly for me money talks if we compare a potential 25% increase in the entry fee without the school.

Stephen
I am guessing the difference would be about $25-40 per entry.

[StephenB]

thanks Dick, that isn't to bad then considering the extra track time. I was thinking $400 bucks each went a lot further but yor right with a 200 car entry in the regional that is only $50 each..

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

The LRP school was a big bust last year. Really, a waste of everyone's time. Most students had already gotten their stuff out of the way by then. I personally will not take another day off of work in 2013 to instruct at a school with only 6 students.

Forget the "history" of the track and/or whether or not students have HPDE time there. Totally irrelevant to the purpose of the school, which is to get students used to the procedures, flags, and having someone pass them without a point-by.

Further, the June school date - regardless of location - makes no sense because our "racing season" is halfway gone by then. If someone really wants to race at LRP in 2013, their efforts are best spent going to either Summit or Jersey (or both) in March, then they can come to NHMS in April and get their Novice Permit signed off. Ready to go for 2013. If they miss the dates then they can plan for 2014 at Watkins Glen in the Fall.

I say "go" on NHMS school and change the LRP weekend to a double Regional Friday/Saturday.

GA

[Dano77]

Im with Greg on this, not that I will race at Lime Rock. But the cost factor and the travel for the Instructer base is easier at NHMS.

The added feature is that the 20 guys that ran at LRP will be forced to attend at NHMS. That way the entry for the school will be up.

This may all be a mute point due to the ease of obtaining a lisence thru the Alternative path. 1 test day, an ontrack guy and the Chief Instructer. Pretty simple if you ask me. Lemons and Chumpcar count as track time as well.

1 Le-Chump race-24 hours of which you get approx 6 hours of track time
1 Alternative School with close observation or school at NHMS.
seems pretty doable if you ask me.

[team-gpracing]

Jerry, first of all thanks for letting us voice our opinions.

Secondly, post a poll.

Finally, my opinion: I think we should make it as easy as possible for the students (whatever route that is). We need all the drivers we can get, right?

And in my experience, it always rains at LRP. :p

[Benauto]

This ones easy for me. We need one school and it should be a doulbe. NHMS would win. Since at this point in time we aren't having a doulbe I would have to pick NHMS. We can run it on a Friday and have Sat. and Sunday to race. With of course practice sesions mixed in if turn out is low.
All of our timing and scoring,extingushers,coolers etc are at NHMS. They have to get down to LRP somehow. In running the school NHMS is so much easier with the way paddocks are set up, classroom with a/c and power everywhere ! Not to mention it has plenty of showers and nice ones ! There is no lake for cars to get stuck in (kills a whole sesion) !
As far as LRP goes ? We need a race in the afternoon friday....maybe aproach the town for variance for an afternoon qualifier ?
Regardless where the school is help is always needed.

[lawtonglenn]

based on all the compelling arguments, I have changed my mind and think an early NHMS school is fine

[Andy Bettencourt]

Assuming a similar attendance to the past few years (because there ARE 2 schools before the NHMS date) would it be possible to do a closed wheel school and a restricted Regional single-day event on Friday?

[1stgen]

It sounds a lot like you guys want to cater to yourselves, you all say the instructors, the equipment and the people have to travel to put the school on. As far as learning the flags, passing etc I still say lime rock is better. The flags are easy to spot, flag stations are easy to see, there are no solid tirewalls in the most dangerous brake zones...etc.
again...from a students point of view lime rock is a nice, smooth track. NHMS is o e of the worst tracks in the US. Most NER and new scca hopefuls I'm sure would rather do their school at a place that isn't rough on the car. You have no time to fix anything if it breaks...so who fucking cares about garage space? If you break at NHMS you will most likely have a harder time getting back on track that same day. Lime rocks not much better but it's certainly not that tough on your car.
PS most people from the northeast who plan to run the NARRC series are most likely NOT going to go to summit point. Who wants to tow 9 hours to do their first race school? That's just stupid

[Greg Amy]

Yeah, good points: we should make it really, really, really "easy" for students, and put them in the least-stressful, least-taxing, least-difficult environment so that they can pass. That way, when they do decide to go to bumpy, view-limited, difficult tracks they'll be all set and ready to race, and everyone around them will be very comfortable that they're prepared for the experience!

Hey, maybe we can accept Gran Prix Turismo racing experience toward the SCCA license? That way there's no risk!

GA, who takes time off work and away from family, spends his own money, and loses track time to instruct and/or work some other volunteer position at these events (Tech, stewards, etc)...all in the name of "catering to himself"......what a selfish bastard...! And who, BTW, drove his race car - not "towed" - 7 hours to attend each of his first SCCA schools because when he did it THAT WAS THE CLOSEST TRACK AND THE ONLY OPTIONS...what a stupid bastard...!

[Dano77]

Ok 1stgen, you want a school at LRP, STEP UP.

You can be Chief instructer,chief steward,som,chief of Flagging,tech,grid,fire rescue,. You can get the trailer with all the eguipment that will need to be there in NHMS and bring it down to LRP and back to NHMS after the 1stgen School. Dont forget that you will need a date at Lime Rock. hope the checkbook is full. Lets not even talk about how to market the damn thing so you achieve enough interest to at least pay the bills.

Im not trying to bash you, just be realistic. We are not catering to ourselves, we are being realistic in our expectations and trying to capitalize on what our strengths are. Everything is in NH.

If you came to a comp board meeting you would know that. But since your in Albany and not a member of NER, dont tell us what to do. OR

STEP UP

[team-gpracing]

we should make it really, really, really "easy" for students, and put them in the least-stressful, least-taxing, least-difficult environment so that they can pass.

Not sure if that was aimed at my comment. If it was, I'll clarify my point. I don't think we should make it easy for students to pass, I think we should make it easy for them to attend. If more students will attend LRP, hold the school there. If the students will come no matter the location, hold it at NHMS.

I appreciate that Jerry has offered more time to us at LRP, but trading a couple more minutes track time for some fresh blood in the club is definitely something I'm willing to do.

[Andy Bettencourt]

What Greg was saying was that even though LRP may be 'easier' on students from a sight-view standpoint or whatever reason you want to use to make it 'easier' to concentrate or pass, it DOESN'T help when they go to a 'tough' track like NHMS. They would likely be unprepared there.

So if you train in a tougher environment, the easier one will be well, easier. If you train in the easy environment, when you get to the tough one, you will be more apt to make mistakes.

[gran racing]

If you came to a comp board meeting you would know that. But since your in Albany and not a member of NER, dont tell us what to do.

Didn't realize this was posted on the NER forum. :rolleyes: Plus the whole thought of members caring so much about the specific region, especially in the NE where we race with several regions hosting the events is unrealistic.

[mossaidis]

Didn't realize this was posted on the NER forum. :rolleyes: Plus the whole thought of members caring so much about the specific region, especially in the NE where we race with several regions hosting the events is unrealistic.

I am SO moving to the NER region

[Dano77]

Im not quite sure my statement was taken correctly. NER IS WRITING THE CHECK!!!!!!!!!!!! That makes this an NER issue.


Im done now. I will stop bothering you with these insignificant details, such as if the school loses money,NER loses money.

But wait, we need to be user friendly and not be so selfish with our money. we should give every student a hotel room as well. they need thier sleep and comfort. And maybe an expense account so when the car breaks they can fix it. OH OH and gas cards so they can get to the track. Hell we should just give them the entry out of the kindness of our hearts. That way they can go give other regions entry money cause NHMS is too tough to drive.

This a buisness and a buisness need to profit. If you have limited income you need to cut expenses. Hence LRP is too expensive to make a profit on a loss leader proposition like a school. The expenses are the same weather its 20 students or 200 racers. And im not just talking dollars either. There are all the volenteers that make this go.

So are we catering to ourselves or are we using our strengths?

[Drew M]

This a business and a business need to profit. If you have limited income you need to cut expenses. Hence LRP is too expensive to make a profit on a loss leader proposition like a school. The expenses are the same weather its 20 students or 200 racers. And im not just talking dollars either. There are all the volenteers that make this go.

Did the region make more money off of the ~5 people that attended the NHMS school vs. the LRP school with ~23 entrants? I've always been under the impression that regions rarely break even on schools. So which school does the region lose less money on? I'm no businessman, but I think that's where the answer lies.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Still wondering if Jerry thinks that we could run a Restricted 1-Day Regional on Friday (NHMS) to subsidize closed-wheel school groups.

Or if dedicated one run group at LRP (like has been done) as a test and tune to subsidize.

The addition of the Jersey school has REALLY screwed the NER attendance.

[gran racing]

Always a pleasure talking with you. LMAO

There's a difference between a Friday school only having to carry itself and intergrating a school within a qual day. There's obviously no point in further discussion though.

[1stgen]

Your problem is its clearly YOUR baby right? (NER) then why did I have three instructors at my lime rock school who I've known and driven with for 15 years? I'm talking about all your mohud instructors...another point, you DON'T ask people to volunteer. You take the ball and try to run with it, I WILL GLADLY step up and help. I've been instructing hpde's for 9 years. I only decided to go race because some of the IT crowd bugged meto come race...I did and I won my class in the series, First year out...took me almost 10 years to come race with you guys and now I'm already ready to leave and go to NASA or run with BMW even, they allow any marquee to run with them. You know how they do it? They get the newly licensed and good performi g Drivers to take over and carry the the torch as they say. None of you have even spoken to me since I've been licensed with you......h mmmmmmmmmm I'm no rocket scientist but how the hell do I or we know you want the help? Or do you only want YOUR NER members? Stop with the elitist attitude and cater to the goddamn students. Yes I said it again, with out them this club will NO LONGER EXIST

[1stgen]

BTW some of the attitude from the NER crowd is why people think of NER as the elitist group....auto-x and road racing.
This is regional, entry level, club racing, so yes again...cater to students so you have a future.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Unfortunately, most of us probably haven't gotten to know you because you are in ITE. As you know, ITE runs with big-bore closed wheel so we wouldn't have had a chance to meet you on grid or in impound. Have you walked around and introduced yourself? Flatout usually takes up 10-12 garage spaces on the North side of the North garages. You are always welcome. And it would help to know who you are if you signed your posts... ;)

Don't take some comments to seriously. It's the silly season. I hear what you are saying about LRP vs. NHMS but you do have to understand that Regions can't take too many financial hits putting on these schools in the wrong places at the wrong time of the year. I really do feel like the Jersey school has affected both the early NHMS school (because it's earlier) AND the later LRP school (because of the geography).

So it's a decision that needs to balance the most students vs the cost to the Region. I think the LRP school would be better if they ran it with a SCCA sponsored test day. Let the opening day NHMS weekend be a triple!

[1stgen]

Andy I talked to you about your goodyears in impound at NHMS., I'm sorry to be passionate but that's what I am. Mickey has also introduced me to most of you guys....and to be honest some of you acted like you could care less. But some...mostly New Yorkers...aheemmm! Have been super nice to me...I am also always available to help and lend tools...to your flat out guys a few times actually...you know why? Cuz your crew knows I race a turbocharged VW that's why.
Tom Hansen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy I talked to you about your goodyears in impound at NHMS., I'm sorry to be passionate but that's what I am. Mickey has also introduced me to most of you guys....and to be honest some of you acted like you could care less. But some...mostly New Yorkers...aheemmm! Have been super nice to me...I am also always available to help and lend tools...to your flat out guys a few times actually...you know why? Cuz your crew knows I race a turbocharged VW that's why.
Tom Hansen

Sure Tom, I remember! Not many people ask about the Goodyears LOL. Tough to remember everyone all the time.

Everyone on here is passionate and we are feeling it from both sides. It's all good.

[ner88]

Your problem is its clearly YOUR baby right? (NER) then why did I have three instructors at my lime rock school who I've known and driven with for 15 years? I'm talking about all your mohud instructors...another point, you DON'T ask people to volunteer. You take the ball and try to run with it, I WILL GLADLY step up and help. I've been instructing hpde's for 9 years. I only decided to go race because some of the IT crowd bugged meto come race...I did and I won my class in the series, First year out...took me almost 10 years to come race with you guys and now I'm already ready to leave and go to NASA or run with BMW even, they allow any marquee to run with them. You know how they do it? They get the newly licensed and good performi g Drivers to take over and carry the the torch as they say. None of you have even spoken to me since I've been licensed with you......h mmmmmmmmmm I'm no rocket scientist but how the hell do I or we know you want the help? Or do you only want YOUR NER members? Stop with the elitist attitude and cater to the goddamn students. Yes I said it again, with out them this club will NO LONGER EXIST
No really, is this Matt Weisberg?:D

[BruceG]

I can honestly say that folks like Greg,Glen.......and a whole bunch of IT7 folks(Norm,Dick) have been nothing but friendly and helpful to my stupid questions. Now that I have recently acquired my F500 and gone to the dark side......LOL, they will ignore me(just kidding).

Just as we may need to address ignorance on the part of folks toward new racers. we also need to recognize all the good,helpful folks in NER, as well. That includes you, Mickey(how you doin?).......LOL.

[1stgen]

Cool I'm glad you remembered, those goodyears are the way to go btw.
With all I have said I will apologize for the generalizing, but I also will gladly help with the race school....especially if its at lime rock. ;-)

[kcolbey]

As a newly minted driver and not an NER member, I can say that if it weren't for the LRP school in June, I would still be *anxiously* waiting for another school to get signed off. I bought the car in March, and there was no way to turn it around in a couple weeks then tow 6+ hours south having never run the car (that would be either Summit or NJMP). Memorial Day was a Glen event, so that knocked NHMS out.
To all of the NER volunteer who put on the school, thanks! I hope that you guys do end up holding it next year.

PS I've heard rumor that Glen may not have their fall school next year. I know that has been mentioned a few times as an alternative for students. Not to jump on a soapbox, but holding schools, in general, are an SCCA problem (not a specific region problem). I don't know of a single school that "makes" money on its own, but you'll never get new drivers if you don't hold any schools.

[bvondran]

Think about as an investment. If you lose $10k on a drivers school with 20 students, if you get just half of them to do three more races that year, you have made back your investment (I.e., your payback period is less than months) and every $ you generate from them after that is gravy.

Maybe schools need to be organized by multiple regions up front to share the losses as they will generate returns for multiple regions down the road. Maybe schools should be the purview of the national office since they are the only entity that benefits from every school.

I'm amazed that people don't look at this from a club perspective. If it were me, I'd have a single school in every club racing weekend. It eases access to the market for new participants, doing schools in conjunction with regionals (and more frequently) would reduce the cost per school, and you get your newbies interacting with drivers who are actually racing that weekend.

Brian

[ner88]

A quick correction...there were 6 unlicensed drivers at NHMS and 9 at Lime Rock.

Just for the record, no one defends drivers schools more than me.

That being said, for the region, I have to balance a budget, work with volunteers, racers, orther regions and tracks, to make each event a success.

How much would each racer be willing to pay to license 15 new driver?
Remember I pay for these schools with your (NER) money!

AND, how many of those students are NER members?

[1stgen]

A quick correction...there were 6 unlicensed drivers at NHMS and 9 at Lime Rock.

Just for the record, no one defends drivers schools more than me.

That being said, for the region, I have to balance a budget, work with volunteers, racers, orther regions and tracks, to make each event a success.

How much would each racer be willing to pay to license 15 new driver?
Remember I pay for these schools with your (NER) money!

AND, how many of those students are NER members?

I understand that NER is writing the check but....the volunteers are from all the regions in the northeast. With that said and since mohud is most likely NOT doing the national. Why don't I propose a split weekend with the school at LRP with NER at this months board meeting? To try and get more volunteers than you would and split financials.

[ner88]

Why would Mohud split the weekend? At best we break even and the potential to lose money far out weighs the maybe tiny profit .
We all work closely but LRP is the only race Mohud does as a region. They lost big last year.

[1stgen]

Why would Mohud split the weekend? At best we break even and the potential to lose money far out weighs the maybe tiny profit .
We all work closely but LRP is the only race Mohud does as a region. They lost big last year.

If you split the cost...you will split the loss....that's the point.

[dtanthon]

MoHud and NNJR will be co-hosting a weekend at Lime Rock in 2013 just as we did last year. From speaking with the MoHud race committee chairman it appears a National does not fit into the available dates so it will most likely be a 2 day regional (format TBD).

This weekend is the scheduling meeting in Ithaca. We will have firm as firm can be dates on Monday.

[StephF]

It sounds a lot like you guys want to cater to yourselves, you all say the instructors, the equipment and the people have to travel to put the school on. As far as learning the flags, passing etc I still say lime rock is better. The flags are easy to spot, flag stations are easy to see, there are no solid tirewalls in the most dangerous brake zones...etc.
again...from a students point of view lime rock is a nice, smooth track. NHMS is o e of the worst tracks in the US. Most NER and new scca hopefuls I'm sure would rather do their school at a place that isn't rough on the car. You have no time to fix anything if it breaks...so who fucking cares about garage space? If you break at NHMS you will most likely have a harder time getting back on track that same day. Lime rocks not much better but it's certainly not that tough on your car.
PS most people from the northeast who plan to run the NARRC series are most likely NOT going to go to summit point. Who wants to tow 9 hours to do their first race school? That's just stupid

Then call me stupid, because that's what I did back in '98. Absolutely an AWESOME school. Tons of track time, huge turnout, crazy good. Learned a bunch those two days.
Because towing is part of racing too.

[BruceG]

MoHud and NNJR will be co-hosting a weekend at Lime Rock in 2013 just as we did last year. From speaking with the MoHud race committee chairman it appears a National does not fit into the available dates so it will most likely be a 2 day regional (format TBD).

This weekend is the scheduling meeting in Ithaca. We will have firm as firm can be dates on Monday.

That would be great!! To have more regionals at LRP. Nice!!:eclipsee_steering:

PS: no sarcasm in my message. Nice for those of us that only run regionals.

[joeg]

I'm with Stephanie...fantastic school at Summit...and my tow was longer than 9 hours!

[1stgen]

Then call me stupid, because that's what I did back in '98. Absolutely an AWESOME school. Tons of track time, huge turnout, crazy good. Learned a bunch those two days.
Because towing is part of racing too.

And how much was gas in 98? It's time to get up to date with WHO your clientele is and how far they'll tow to do a race school. 400-700 miles from their home in this economy is Again just not smart economically. You want young new drivers....they're going to NASA because they offer a school at every event they have pretty much. So get acclimated to your customers so you don't scare them all away. Had I not already been an SCCA member for 13 yeas prior to getting licensed....guess who I would have gone with?

[ner88]

1stgen
You seem to have all the answers!
But, you're nothing more than a heckler!
Show a little respect for your fellow members and don't assume you know everything because you don't.
If you think you know how to make things"better" than shut up and get involved.
Earn our respect and make a difference!

[Drew M]

He does have a point, Jerry. Would mixing one school session in on a few race weekends really be that costly?

[ner88]

I can only say it would be a huge problem!
What is a few, we only do 5 events so 1 is 20%.....
10 years ago our schools saw 65 new drivers today 10? Maybe?
Back then we were the only game in town, guys would tow for miles to come.
Today, there are so many opportunities to get a license and more schools.
Take time and read (SCCA.com) alternative schools, we make it easy and won't turn anyone down.
COM, SCDA and BMW club will put an instructor in your car and teach you how to drive.
Today it's rare to have a student that has no track experience. Our primary objective is to make sure they are safe to race with.
NASA does a lot of things but mainly provides entertainment! (I know first hand)
We do what we do best, race!

[1stgen]

You know what....this is a public forum. You asked for opinions on the race school, guess what? You got some and the majority of people say is it really that difficult to have that damn race school? I've said a million times I will gladly help out but again you guys have the attitude that you know what's right and were not going to hear what your saying. I'm telling you what's happening out there. I've instructed for those afformentioned clubs for years and have been volunteering my time and money for over a decade with them. I never raced because it IS difficult to get the car ready, prepped for a full day with no repairs, all your supplies, spares etc....by yourself? Get real, you all had help along the way and you need to go back to being a noob and realize it isn't easy to do all that and get your shit in order and travel to the event. ALL of you I'm sure had help your first school and or race weekend. ALOT of people don't have that luxury....how about this....stop posting on a public forum if you don't want opinions expressed that arent your own.

[webhound]

Hear hear, Tom.

Saying it can't be done is all well and good, but when there are alternatives that exist, staying relevant in the face of those alternatives become much less likely unless change is instituted.

And the post above that said this is a business. It's actually not. It's a club. I'm well aware of the differences.

Will

[BruceG]

Hear hear, Tom.

Saying it can't be done is all well and good, but when there are alternatives that exist, staying relevant in the face of those alternatives become much less likely unless change is instituted.

And the post above that said this is a business. It's actually not. It's a club. I'm well aware of the differences.

Will

I quess what I plain don't like about this thread is that we were asked for our opinion.....and basically told that unless our answer meet a certain criteria that we were way off base!!

I live in southern Vermont and NHMS And LRP are about an equal tow. I think that NHMS is certainly tougher on hardware than LRP and the fact remains that CT,RI, and NY have greater populations to draw on than ME,NH and certainly VT.

That being said, I certainly appreciate the job that Jerry has done for us......and his knowledge of the business model is far greater than most of us has.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think that given the timing of the NHMS school - and that there are 2 other options so close, it has really hurt the effectiveness of that date. I am willing to bet that a few months later, with the more central location, that LRP would draw more students.

The big problem is the cost and the associated financial risk. While it is a Club, Regions CAN go 'out of business' if they take such a huge hit that they can't recover. What most people don't know is that at the end of the day NER controls the racing at both NHMS and LRP because those tracks reside within their geographical boundaries.

Now from an administration and worker standpoint it makes sense to 'share the wealth' with the hosting of races by different Regions...but NER takes the financial risks (and hits) for all the schools in this area. Do you think NYR would voluntarily swap the summer school/regional at LRP for the NARRC Runoff weekend? Umm, I doubt it. (Even though NER could take the NARRC date if it wanted to)

So in the end we realize this decision is largely about money and who can absorb the smallest short term loss for the best potential long term gain. It really is a decision that has way more angles than most people give it credit for. As a former National Committee member for Solo Stock Class, Spec Miata and Improved Touring as well as an NER BoD member I can say with confidence that it's easy to get heated on both sides of this coin.

Maybe Jerry can list the reasons NER feels like it needs to have (or not have) a school at a certain venue, what the plans are and see if any of us had an other thoughts.

Looking back at the original post, the question was what format the drivers wanted at the LRP date, NOT what track they wanted a school at.

[BruceG]

I think that given the timing of the NHMS school - and that there are 2 other options so close, it has really hurt the effectiveness of that date. I am willing to bet that a few months later, with the more central location, that LRP would draw more students.

The big problem is the cost and the associated financial risk. While it is a Club, Regions CAN go 'out of business' if they take such a huge hit that they can't recover. What most people don't know is that at the end of the day NER controls the racing at both NHMS and LRP because those tracks reside within their geographical boundaries.

Now from an administration and worker standpoint it makes sense to 'share the wealth' with the hosting of races by different Regions...but NER takes the financial risks (and hits) for all the schools in this area. Do you think NYR would voluntarily swap the summer school/regional at LRP for the NARRC Runoff weekend? Umm, I doubt it. (Even though NER could take the NARRC date if it wanted to)








So in the end we realize this decision is largely about money and who can absorb the smallest short term loss for the best potential long term gain. It really is a decision that has way more angles than most people give it credit for. As a former National Committee member for Solo Stock Class, Spec Miata and Improved Touring as well as an NER BoD member I can say with confidence that it's easy to get heated on both sides of this coin.

Maybe Jerry can list the reasons NER feels like it needs to have (or not have) a school at a certain venue, what the plans are and see if any of us had an other thoughts.

Looking back at the original post, the question was what format the drivers wanted at the LRP date, NOT what track they wanted a school at.

Andy......your last line here is right on the money.I have already got my "crow" out of the fridge to eat. I should read more carefully in the future.

[JLawton]

I "may" be out of the loop a little and not paying attention...... (it's been known to happen ;) ) But it seems when the NHMS school was in April, and the first school on the North East, it was well attended. Can we take part of the Rational weekend?

I know the bottom line question was about the LRP date, but if you can get one good school in at another time, it's a moot point.

I also have to say that as racers, we've been asked for our opinion and changes made based on those ideas more in the last three or so years than I've seen in all my previous years with SCCA. Jerry listens to the racers and does all he can to accommodate us. He's busted his ass for a lot of years and knows his shit. Maybe we should try listening (and hearing) to what he has to say.............. as difficult as it is at times.

Can't we all get along?? :rolleyes: It's gonna be a looooong off season!!

[Serge]

And how much was gas in 98? It's time to get up to date with WHO your clientele is and how far they'll tow to do a race school. 400-700 miles from their home in this economy is Again just not smart economically. You want young new drivers....they're going to NASA because they offer a school at every event they have pretty much. So get acclimated to your customers so you don't scare them all away. Had I not already been an SCCA member for 13 yeas prior to getting licensed....guess who I would have gone with?

The New England Region Racing Board has always listen to their competitors in regards to what they would prefer during a race weekend and the constant answer has always been "more track time". with that in mind, do you think that our racing members would be willing to sacrifice a halfday of racing in order to include a school for a very minimal number of students? Not likely.
Jerry is doing everything he can to satisfy the majority of members. Unfortunately, you appear to be in the minority, suck it up and move on. I was always told that life sometime isn't fair.
I congratulate Jerry for the great job he's doing with little money, big objectives and never enough support. If anyone feels that they can do a better job, the position can be yours. I'm certain that Jerry would welcome a quick transition. But if you're not up to the full task, the NER Racing Board would appreciate any positive help you'd be willing to contribute.

[1stgen]

I can only say it would be a huge problem!
What is a few, we only do 5 events so 1 is 20%.....
10 years ago our schools saw 65 new drivers today 10? Maybe?
Back then we were the only game in town, guys would tow for miles to come.
Today, there are so many opportunities to get a license and more schools.
Take time and read (SCCA.com) alternative schools, we make it easy and won't turn anyone down.
COM, SCDA and BMW club will put an instructor in your car and teach you how to drive.
Today it's rare to have a student that has no track experience. Our primary objective is to make sure they are safe to race with.
NASA does a lot of things but mainly provides entertainment! (I know first hand)
We do what we do best, race!

I will happily sacrifice track time at ANY event to get new students and racers. It's about the big picture....which some of you clearly can not focus on. Which is your driver numbers are getting smaller and your drivers are getting younger. Cater to them or you will be a member of a very small and elite club. This is all Ive been saying all along, seriously if you can't get it done in a practice and qualifier, then maybe YOU need to go back to drivers schools to get more seat time. Race weekend I want to show up, qualify and race. Car set up is done, it's all driver at this point.

[webhound]

Kudos to NER for carrying the schools and making them relatively affordable. It's too bad that it appears it's done at a loss. Also, I'm really glad that the issues are being looked into, and that really realistic alternatives are being proposed, accomplished, and more are coming.

The lion's share of the "problem" isn't necessarily what the SCCA is or isn't doing or is or isn't able to do, it's what other organizations are doing that looks pretty darn attractive, especially given today's economic environment. The other orgs I'm citing here are NASA, track day businesses, Lemons, Chump, etc. I'm not here to argue the relative merits of each vis SCCA, but they are definite alternatives.

Onto ideas. What about nixing schools during race weekends altogether? Instead, have the school integrated into weekday PDX events, weekday in particular because track rental is cheaper. Or do those on a three day schedule in which the PDX/school combo leads into a race weekend. The good part about that is that you'd have "real racers" being mingled in with PDX/school participants and maybe cross pollinate the bunch. Heck, licensing school guys could probably work in with PDX novices for first session, then progress from there to get their own passing sessions later in the day. Call this an alternative school, but instead of running a couple of guys through it, make it widely known that it's a licensing path.

As things are now, I think the alternative licensing tracts are going to become the method the majority are going to use to get licensed (looks like me included), and to a great degree that's great and progressive thinking. However, the avenues being used through the alternative tracts are not really (usually) SCCA events, and that's frankly too bad. AFAIK we are bootstrapping track test days and sometimes other org's HPDE sessions for this purpose.

Guys, bottom line, the days of a guy having the sun rise AND set over their racing "career," and it being entirely under the SCCA banner, are LONG GONE. To stay relevant, the SCCA needs to branch out a little.

And yes, we have strayed off the topic a lot.

Will

[StephenB]

I will be honest in saying that I like the track time. I don't do test days, I have a new car and even with my old one I like to tinker on it. (this is a hobby of mine) So the extra sessions and extra track time attracks me to the event.

With that being said I do think it would be cool to encorporate a HPDE session into each weekend that would allow for track time for our members that are not licensed racers. Just not sure how we could do that. I certainly don't think we could at LRP since track time is so limited. At NHMS maybe we could since an extra 1hr Saturday night is like a grand or so... just have a seperate entry for that evenings event. I am sure some racers would volunteer each weekend for that. Then hold a drivers school at the first weekend of the year as something that all the HPDE participates could work towards going to. this would become a cycle that repeats year after year without a loss of track time to us (current drivers) and would allow others to easily get the "hook" and seek out more. To be honest I would even be willing to pay an extra $10 for that "overtime session" in my entry to allow any corner workers to attend this HPDE session for FREE if they work that weekend. That may attract more workers and more participation as well.

Stephen

[webhound]

Stephen, point taken on track time. But, there is a growing faction of guys, Tom being one of them, that can pretty much get all the track time they can handle on HPDE days with other orgs. The instructor sessions are liberal enough wrt passing that you can even do a lot of t&t on the car during an average HPDE day. Tom's point is a good one, and mixed with what Jerry said, he's using SCCA racing weekends as just that, a racing weekend. If you want to get in the car more, there are so many other outlets out there, some even being free (instruct in exchange for track time) or with the SCCA, during enduros and such.

Every March BMWCCA has been holding a Club Racing school at Mid Ohio. You won't believe this, but they allow the school to be run in the student's regular HPDE car. You talk about setting the hook!

Will

[ner88]

I've been to NASA events, in fact our team and driver just won the SM Championship. I've observed what they do, talked with their leaders and can appreciate what it is and understand their direction.
I've been around or have friends that do SCDA, COM, BMW and PCA events.
It's silly for us(NER) to put on PDX's (we have tried) there is too much compition and events in this area for us to try and compete. Besides these guys do a good job at it!
Weekday day events would mean asking all the volunteers to come and miss work!
We could rent track folks but that costs money. Look at the other clubs and check thier pricing...it's not cheap!
NER runs 5 race events a year, many of our workers, work at other regions events as well! We just don't have the manpower to add more to our schedule, I know, I'm overloaded with what we have.
Now, if someone wants to take the lead in a PDX/Time trial program, "Come on Down".
We do what we do best, run race events!.... and yes, we do it better and for less, than anyone else.
:dead_horse:

[webhound]

:dead_horse: indeed, but in reality it's a horse that needs a little thrashing, and is obviously important enough to the Div to warrant all these responses.

Yes, track days are being done, and done well, by all those orgs you mention. On the other hand, we at MoHud just had our third PDX, all of which have been successfully attended-how the last one did we'll know after tonight's meeting. Also, no, the other org's events are not cheap, but actually they are no more, or not much more expensive than NER's schools, and are less than other schools being held elsewhere. My point was simply that instead of doing a day that is dedicated to a school, that is probably a "loss leader," that may be poorly attended, and that is a drag on the host region's resources, offset that a little bit by leveraging the business part of a track day. There are "people of means" that show up to HPDE like it's their job, they don't care that they were just at SCDA's event yesterday, they will come back today.

Another thought. If what we do is racing, why don't we just offload driver's school altogether? Maybe a deal could be worked out with a few trackday orgs to get our instruction in during one of their days.

I also know that there will be an additional proposal for how to introduce new racers that will probably work out very well.

One other thought. Knowing that LRP is just expensive, is that a good track at which to have a school? If it's my buck, if there isn't a huge difference in the distance I have to travel, I am simply going to pick the school which is the cheapest, and of course works into my schedule. At the end of the day, I don't really care if I've done it at NHMS, LRP, the Glen, or the oval at Thompson. It doesn't mean that's where I have to race in the future.

[dtanthon]

As for format of an event at LRP I would like -

Friday - 10AM - 6PM (hour lunch)
Friday AM - Qualify for Friday PM
Lunch
Friday PM - Qualify for Saturday AM using a 'race' format. Need to define how to do this.
Friday (after 6PM) - Drink beer, tell stories, shave Jerry.

Saturday - 9AM - 6PM (hour lunch)
Saturday AM - Sprint race (short)
Lunch
Saturday PM - Feature race (long)

Just my opinion.

[Rabbit05]

I'm with Darrell on this one..I like that schedule...

Although I don't know Jerry and why he needs to be shaved....? LOL !

[ner88]

Darrell, don't be giving my secrets away!:p

[StephenB]

I love it! Reminds me of the "track time is KING" event from years back. I think it was exactly what you described...

Stephen

[dtanthon]

We did something like this at NJMP for the 'Jerk' when it was on Lightning. We had the 'Race, Race, Race' stamp on it. A lot of fun and we had people complain it was too much.

If I'm at the track I want to race, get as many in there as possible. I really enjoy the excitement of the start and battling with friends for position. The only problem is the amount of time between sessions adds up. We need to be more efficient. With the hard stop at LRP that could screw the later groups if the early group messes up.

Snowing here in NY. Ice racing anyone?

[ner88]

Gee! When you look at it, it looks like a NHMS event???:shrug:

[StephenB]

Would no drivers school and two qualifying/test sessions be more desirable on Friday?
:shrug:

Yes.
Stephen

[gran racing]

"more track time"

40 minutes of qualifying and 30 minutes of racing or 15 minutes of qualifying and two 20 minute races? I'd take more racing.


It's silly for us(NER) to put on PDX's (we have tried) there is too much compition and events in this area for us to try and compete. Besides these guys do a good job at it!

Yes, I know I've said this often but partner with some of those companies that host PDXs. There's a gap between getting into racing and w2w SCCA.

[Ed Funk]

Doncha just love silly season?

[ner88]

Doncha just love silly season?
AND....it's only November!

[StephF]

Your problem is its clearly YOUR baby right? (NER) then why did I have three instructors at my lime rock school who I've known and driven with for 15 years? I'm talking about all your mohud instructors...another point, you DON'T ask people to volunteer. You take the ball and try to run with it, I WILL GLADLY step up and help. I've been instructing hpde's for 9 years. I only decided to go race because some of the IT crowd bugged meto come race...I did and I won my class in the series, First year out...took me almost 10 years to come race with you guys and now I'm already ready to leave and go to NASA or run with BMW even, they allow any marquee to run with them. You know how they do it? They get the newly licensed and good performi g Drivers to take over and carry the the torch as they say. None of you have even spoken to me since I've been licensed with you......h mmmmmmmmmm I'm no rocket scientist but how the hell do I or we know you want the help? Or do you only want YOUR NER members? Stop with the elitist attitude and cater to the goddamn students. Yes I said it again, with out them this club will NO LONGER EXIST


BTW some of the attitude from the NER crowd is why people think of NER as the elitist group....auto-x and road racing.
This is regional, entry level, club racing, so yes again...cater to students so you have a future.


And how much was gas in 98? It's time to get up to date with WHO your clientele is and how far they'll tow to do a race school. 400-700 miles from their home in this economy is Again just not smart economically. You want young new drivers....they're going to NASA because they offer a school at every event they have pretty much. So get acclimated to your customers so you don't scare them all away. Had I not already been an SCCA member for 13 yeas prior to getting licensed....guess who I would have gone with?


You know what....this is a public forum. You asked for opinions on the race school, guess what? You got some and the majority of people say is it really that difficult to have that damn race school? I've said a million times I will gladly help out but again you guys have the attitude that you know what's right and were not going to hear what your saying. I'm telling you what's happening out there. I've instructed for those afformentioned clubs for years and have been volunteering my time and money for over a decade with them. I never raced because it IS difficult to get the car ready, prepped for a full day with no repairs, all your supplies, spares etc....by yourself? Get real, you all had help along the way and you need to go back to being a noob and realize it isn't easy to do all that and get your shit in order and travel to the event. ALL of you I'm sure had help your first school and or race weekend. ALOT of people don't have that luxury....how about this....stop posting on a public forum if you don't want opinions expressed that arent your own.

Well...looks like it's off season again.
By the way. I really take offense to your tone and remarks. Really. I had a reply written that contained a couple of f-bombs, but you know...you just aren't worth it.
I welcome a school mixed in with a race weekend AS LONG AS IT MAKES SENSE ECONOMICALLY. Because, NER IS writing the check: not Mohud. And NER is writing the check with dues from its elitist members. You know, the stupid ones who *gasp* tow to another track for a school.
People disagreed with you. Get over it.

[Dano77]

YEAH, What she said!!!!!!







Dan

[1stgen]

Well...looks like it's off season again.
By the way. I really take offense to your tone and remarks. Really. I had a reply written that contained a couple of f-bombs, but you know...you just aren't worth it.
I welcome a school mixed in with a race weekend AS LONG AS IT MAKES SENSE ECONOMICALLY. Because, NER IS writing the check: not Mohud. And NER is writing the check with dues from its elitist members. You know, the stupid ones who *gasp* tow to another track for a school.
People disagreed with you. Get over it.

Again it's never gonna make sense economically if you don't find a better way to incorporate a school with your race series. That's the horse...get it? Now do it , and. Mohud does a pdx, it most likely made or broke even money. Re structure your model, it's old.

[Terry Hanushek]

It should be noted that in addition to the possible drivers schools at NHMS and LRP, there are four other drivers schools on the preliminary 2013 schedule at Summit Point, NJMP, Pittsburgh and Watkins Glen. Given the current level of demand and alternative licensing methods, these schools should be able to provide adequate opportunities for new drivers. We have gotten well beyond the 'every region and every track must run a drivers school' protocol.

Terry

[StephF]

Again it's never gonna make sense economically if you don't find a better way to incorporate a school with your race series. That's the horse...get it? Now do it , and. Mohud does a pdx, it most likely made or broke even money. Re structure your model, it's old.

We have schools. New England, unlike other regions, had two of them. Other regions had one or none.
That's been made amply clear here.
We have a school at NHMS.
Why don't you volunteer to instruct there? Oh, wait, that's right, you don't want your free track time at NHMS, you want it at LRP.
Because, after all, you are graciously volunteering to instruct at LRP only.

[JLawton]

Oh, and to answer the original question: More racing!!!! Love the three race format at NHMS.

[1stgen]

We have schools. New England, unlike other regions, had two of them. Other regions had one or none.
That's been made amply clear here.
We have a school at NHMS.
Why don't you volunteer to instruct there? Oh, wait, that's right, you don't want your free track time at NHMS, you want it at LRP.
Because, after all, you are graciously volunteering to instruct at LRP only.

Wow some of you still hurt hurt about the election?
I'll gladly instruct at NHMS, LRP, the glen, calabogie, tremblant,mosport, NJMP, pocono....any others you'd like to throw out there? I don't care where we race or how we race I'm just saying a school at every track, ESPECIALLY the most centrally located one to civilization.....yeah yeah yeah. NHMS is near Boston.....hardly civilization BTW .....;-) I did every event on the series my first year except the last LRP event. Funny how that is.....

[Ed Funk]

Huh? What does a sore erection have to do with anything? .....oh, never mind.

[louginger]

The drivers schools should be (and I think are by most involved)viewed as an investment. We need more racers. So even with a low turnout at New Hampshire, I would be in favor of keeping the school going. Or at least "formalizing" the new sign off system into the weekend.

[gran racing]

The challenge continually faced is who should make this investment and absorb the associated loss? It's a tough call. Maybe somehow the costs should be shared by multiple regions that would benefit from the investment? Not sure how that could be structured or work.

[Greg Amy]

The challenge continually faced is who should make this investment and absorb the associated loss?
The entrants, of course. Who else pays for this? Should any region subsidize the racing? I think not.

If "the entrants" feel strongly enough about reducing track time and increasing entry costs in order to, effectively, subsidize the racing schools, then so be it. My gut feeling is they'd say "no".

If I were starting from scratch today, I highly doubt I'd use the SCCA "ladder" to get a license, unless there was a class specific to SCCA that I just felt compelled to run solely. There's just too many other ways to do it, at more track time and lower cost.

GA

[Marcus Miller]

If I were starting from scratch today, I highly doubt I'd use the SCCA "ladder" to get a license, unless there was a class specific to SCCA that I just felt compelled to run solely. There's just too many other ways to do it, at more track time and lower cost.

GA

This.:023:

[1stgen]

The entrants, of course. Who else pays for this? Should any region subsidize the racing? I think not.

If "the entrants" feel strongly enough about reducing track time and increasing entry costs in order to, effectively, subsidize the racing schools, then so be it. My gut feeling is they'd say "no".

If I were starting from scratch today, I highly doubt I'd use the SCCA "ladder" to get a license, unless there was a class specific to SCCA that I just felt compelled to run solely. There's just too many other ways to do it, at more track time and lower cost.

GA

Any ideas on how to get it restructured? It seems there should be an easy and cost effective way to do this.....-there as always been that "gap" between track days and getting licensed. Most track day students I have instructed want to get there race license. But the licensing process is unclear to them as to what to do and how to make the leap. I have a feeling licensing was a much simpler process in the early days of SCCA..

[Greg Amy]

Any ideas on how to get it restructured? It seems there should be an easy and cost effective way to do this....
When I started racing, there were no other options. There were no track days (hell, there were very few TRACKS), there were no HPDEs, there was no NASA, EMRA, COMSCC, no Porsche Club events other than hill limbs, hard parking and Zymol demonstrations :)

And we walked to and from the grid, uphill both ways, in bare feet.

And the licensing process was EXACTLY the same then as now. The very first time my feet touched a "hot" surface on a race track was fully clothed in a driver's suit, buckled into an IT car that I had just driven 7 hours to my first SCCA driver's school. Good, or bad?

There are discussions within the SCCA regarding barriers to entry; it is something the org is addressing, not ignoring. But large orgs turn slowly, most off the time for good reason.

I wish I had

[webhound]

Any ideas on how to get it restructured? It seems there should be an easy and cost effective way to do this.....-there as always been that "gap" between track days and getting licensed. Most track day students I have instructed want to get there race license. But the licensing process is unclear to them as to what to do and how to make the leap. I have a feeling licensing was a much simpler process in the early days of SCCA..

Part one of the restructuring of licensing was the non-traditional "schools." IMO this is just a scheduling/convenience thing, not a cost thing.

Part two is a pretty specific proposal making it's way around the leadership (vague, huh?), about lowering the barriers to entry, from what I've heard of which sounds really good and reasonable. Either new racers will come out for it, or they aren't interested in racing/sprint racing. Wish I could make it to the Mini-Con B)

I heard a story of licensing from the early days of the SCCA, from iirc our region's oldest member. Yes, licensing was easier....although they needed a sponsor to join the club.

Will