ITS Porsche 944 - competitive?

[blueray]

Sold my IT7 car and looking for something a little faster and more 'interesting'. There's an 84 944 for sale not too far from me. Has a logbook but was last inspected (and ran) in 2008. Looks well built, not sure what it may need mechanically due to sitting for four years.

Any 944 people out there that can talk about how/if they are competitive? I've been told the BMW 325 is much faster but they just don't do it for me like the Porsche. I expect I'll put some time into getting it ready to race again. I don't recall any major rule changes since 2008 that would require major revisions to the car.

Thoughts? am I crazy?

[spawpoet]

I can only speak about the ones that have run in our area (Florida), and on speed alone those cars have not been competitive vs ITS front runers. That said, if I'm not mistaken, Kip Van Steenburg used to be very competitive in his 944s in the SE, but I've never raced against him. I imagine like most racecars, it comes down to how well built the car is, and how well it's driven.

[JeffYoung]

I can only speak about the ones that have run in our area (Florida), and on speed alone those cars have not been competitive vs ITS front runers. That said, if I'm not mistaken, Kip Van Steenburg used to be very competitive in his 944s in the SE, but I've never raced against him. I imagine like most racecars, it comes down to how well built the car is, and how well it's driven.

My opinion only: I don't think anyone has built a to the max 944 8v since the weight was dropped. Clearly the suspension and brakes are there. Power is the issue.

THe 944S on the other hand solves the power problem and when built and driven to the max (like KIp's) is a potential ITS overdog. But it is an expensive build.

I still think a 944 at the new weight would be competitive although I think the Porsche crowd disagrees wtih me. Solid, reliable car with great brakes and handling though.

[timo944]

My opinion only: I don't think anyone has built a to the max 944 8v since the weight was dropped. Clearly the suspension and brakes are there. Power is the issue.

THe 944S on the other hand solves the power problem and when built and driven to the max (like KIp's) is a potential ITS overdog. But it is an expensive build.

I still think a 944 at the new weight would be competitive although I think the Porsche crowd disagrees wtih me. Solid, reliable car with great brakes and handling though.


Jeff you are on the money. My "other" car is a 944 and although it is not built "to the max," it has a good strong motor that takes advantage of most of the rules. It's low on HP compared to BMW's etc but it's also low on weight. 2-3 years ago at the ARRC I was almost keeping up with Matt Reppert doing 1:43's, and that was my first race of the year.

Unfortunately the 944 motor can be tempermental, and mine went south. You need to have a very well designed oil pan/scraper system that prevents foaming, since this is the bane of the 944. Most recommend an Accusump although I have nver run one.

I'd go for an 8V over 16v due to the weight difference. There are lots of good options for the suspension and the weight limit is reachable within the rules if you weigh under 225 lb or so. The '84 is a good chassis - light weight plus parts are much cheaper than later years (ie brake rotors etc). Use a manual steering rack.

You need an '88 motor - and get the head flowed and worked to the limit of the rules. That's where the power is.

There is another individual in your area looking at building a 944. Send me a PM and I will see if he wants to compare notes with you. I have talked to him quite a bit.

The 944 may not be the fastest car but it has excellent handling, is very forgiving, and parts and upgrades are easily available. Not a winner at Daytona maybe, but at places like VIR and Road Atlanta it can win with the right driver/build combination.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We have seen a full-tilt Milledge 944S on our dyno...and I am here to tell you that give the power and weight, it should be an ANIMAL in ITS.

[JeffYoung]

As I continuously fark with drum brakes and get very frustrated, thoughts of a 944S dance in my head.

[ITA_honda]

If built and driven well its a great choice for ITS. They can be very competitive. Ive been testing and sorting a 944 out for my friend that runs ITS and its very fast. Downside is the expense of parts. Good luck!

[Ron Earp]

I've always thought the 944 had the goods to get it done in ITS. I bought a 933 S2 to build for ITR but after owning it for six months and researching parts costs I sold it. It was simply too rich for my blood - $400 for complete gasket kits and stuff like that scared me off. I suspect it could be done for cheaper if you were in the knowledge of Porsche, but I'm a Ferd boy at heart and went that way instead.

Now a 944S compared to a TR8, well, I suspect the 944 would be about the same cost as a TR8, maybe cheaper for some things. And definitely less maintenance for sure. I sure would like it if you were in a 944 and I was The Torque King for a change. Get a 944, and get some of your life back. I dare you.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I've always thought the 944 had the goods to get it done in ITS. I bought a 933 S2 to build for ITR but after owning it for six months and researching parts costs I sold it. It was simply too rich for my blood - $400 for complete gasket kits and stuff like that scared me off. I suspect it could be done for cheaper if you were in the knowledge of Porsche, but I'm a Ferd boy at heart and went that way instead.

Now a 944S compared to a TR8, well, I suspect the 944 would be about the same cost as a TR8, maybe cheaper for some things. And definitely less maintenance for sure. I sure would like it if you were in a 944 and I was The Torque King for a change. Get a 944, and get some of your life back. I dare you.

You wouldn't be much more of a king if it was the 944S.

[benspeed]

They can make the power - got to make sure you work with an expert engine guy. Russ Jones still has a really fast 944S up north.

[Ron Earp]

You wouldn't be much more of a king if it was the 944S.

Little do thy know of the Pushrod Brigade...

[JeffYoung]

You wouldn't be much more of a king if it was the 944S.

216 wtq here.....whose the king? I already know of one car higher than that.....

[Robbie]

Torque, schmorque. Show me thrust curves.

[Ron Earp]

I already know of one car higher than that.....

Chuck Baader's ITA BMW?

[JeffYoung]

ITA Miata?

[Andy Bettencourt]

ITA Miata?

Mine is way higher than that. :)

Would you be surprised if a 944S made in excess of 185ft/lbs?

[JeffYoung]

No, given that the 2.3 Prelude motor in ITS made something like that.

Big fours can turn out some torque.

[Ron Earp]

Would you be surprised if a 944S made in excess of 185ft/lbs?

No. But I'd still be The Torque King. :)

[JeffYoung]

No. But I'd still be The Torque King. :)

Got to work on that lap time king though! Doh!

Seriously, if you guys have not watched some of the Youtube vid of the RUstangs,these cars in their first few race weekends have run top 2-5 in very competitive ITS SEDiv fields.

Can't stop? Wrong.

Can't turn? Wrong.

Can't make power? Wrong.

These boys have done very impressive work.

[jamrce1]

Glad you asked. We are giving strong consideration to building a 944 to run ITS but specifically the Florida endurance series. There is alot that can be done to these cars that is not being done. I have looked at several recently and could not see where any of these cars are at the limit. I must admit to being a stickler for preperation both initial and prerace. THINGS for these cars are dirt cheap compared to what I am used to for formula cars and sports racers. There is a fellow in West Palm Beach that is very familiar with these cars and also has a long history of prepping and racing BMW's that feels the can be very competitive and reliable.
Touch bases with me when you get a chance and we will chat
[email protected]

[Ron Earp]

All fun poking aside, yes, the cars can be competitive in ITS. The KVS proved that when he was running is 944 years ago. It was well driven, well prepped, and quite fast. Is his old car out there anywhere?

[Chip42]

he's running the same shell as his ITR 944S2 now. he had another for a while, and I've seen him paddock with a white 944, I think in ITS.

[JLawton]

I was surprised to see the 83 through 88 were on the same line considering the difference in HP. If I recall the 83 had maybe 150 stock? I don't know if the 84 was much more than that. I would think you would need an 86 1/2+.......... or an "S".......

If you have a passion for Porsches and it's what you really want, go for it. If you're looking for a car that's a tool towards winning? Probably not the way to go........

[Andy Bettencourt]

I was surprised to see the 83 through 88 were on the same line considering the difference in HP. If I recall the 83 had maybe 150 stock? I don't know if the 84 was much more than that. I would think you would need an 86 1/2+.......... or an "S".......

If you have a passion for Porsches and it's what you really want, go for it. If you're looking for a car that's a tool towards winning? Probably not the way to go........

So that's why they are on the same line I bet. Same car, just drop in the updated motor. Think ITS RX-7. 146hp from 86-88, 160hp from 89-91.

Kip had an S. The original question was about the garden-variety 944...I have never seen dyno sheets that would put it in my top choices.

[timo944]

So that's why they are on the same line I bet. Same car, just drop in the updated motor. Think ITS RX-7. 146hp from 86-88, 160hp from 89-91.

Kip had an S. The original question was about the garden-variety 944...I have never seen dyno sheets that would put it in my top choices.

The 83-87 cars had about 150HP stock, 88 had 160HP. A well tuned stock 88 motor pushes 140HP at the wheels and a well built (not exceptinal) one will get you to 160HP at the wheels. How you get beyond that depends on your pocket book.

But the 944 is not a muscle car - it has excellent handling and excellent brakes. Not only that, the brakes last a long time. I consider it the "Red Bull" of the ITS world if you will. Sure won't win a drag race but it can have the lap times to compete. Of course you need a Seb Vettel behind the wheel, and that's where my program falls apart.

Hopefully the ARRC will be the last race in the 300ZX for a while, I plan to get the 944 back on the track in the spring. The 300ZX is faster in a straight line, but I can wring over 2 seconds in lap time out of the 944 at RA......easily. Yet to break in to the 1:42's tho'

[924Guy]

If y'all need some development help sorting those 944's out, you know where to find me... I know how to get that chassis moving fast... ;)

I nearly built an S2 for ITR, before I decided to pull the trigger on the DSR. Figured it'd only take me maybe a year and I'd be back to where I was with the 924... and the DSR was only another $10k to build... LOL

[Ron Earp]

The 83-87 cars had about 150HP stock, 88 had 160HP. A well tuned stock 88 motor pushes 140HP at the wheels and a well built (not exceptinal) one will get you to 160HP at the wheels. How you get beyond that depends on your pocket book.

1987-1988 944S is rated at 188hp at the crank. 2.5L four banger, that isn't anything to complain about right there.

[spawpoet]

Glad you asked. We are giving strong consideration to building a 944 to run ITS but specifically the Florida endurance series. There is alot that can be done to these cars that is not being done. I have looked at several recently and could not see where any of these cars are at the limit. I must admit to being a stickler for preperation both initial and prerace. THINGS for these cars are dirt cheap compared to what I am used to for formula cars and sports racers. There is a fellow in West Palm Beach that is very familiar with these cars and also has a long history of prepping and racing BMW's that feels the can be very competitive and reliable.
Touch bases with me when you get a chance and we will chat
[email protected]


I thought the prep level on the 944s that have run down here in recent years wasn't very high, but I hadn't looked closely. Years ago we had some faster cars show up for the 12 hr races they used to hold at Homestead, but I hadn't seen any of those cars in years. If you guys do build the car for the FES, I look forward to seeing you out there.

[timo944]

1987-1988 944S is rated at 188hp at the crank. 2.5L four banger, that isn't anything to complain about right there.

Well if you base the math on stock HP the 944 is 16.1 lb./HP and the 944S is 15.2 lb./HP. I guess I'd go with the S if I had the choice!

[blueray]

Thanks all for the info and thoughts. Coming from a 79 RX-7, I'm sure it'll feel tremendously more powerful :D

I mainly race a CMP so brakes are a factor. I don't see anything that is putting me off about it at this point. I've always wanted a 944. I'm sure there are other cars that are faster but, this seems like a hoot. We shall see!

Need to get back on the track. Been too long.

[Gregf]

I have raced a 944 8v here in the PNW since 2000. It was an also ran at the original weight of 2715lb, but at the new weight of 2575 I am very competitive with Z cars, BMW 325 IS (E30) and some of the Gen 2 RX7 cars. All of these cars will own me on the straights, but the handling and braking capability of my car keeps me in the hunt. I and other 944 drivers here have several ITS track records here in the NW, so I really think it does ok despite the lower HP output when compared to other ITS cars. The worst is the VW Corrado... It just disappears down the straights and it takes most of 15 minutes for it to run out of brakes... :) My car is an 83 with an 88 engine and suspension under it. I use factory 968 m030 sway bars, good bushings, Koni dampers... Nothing exotic.

Greg Fordahl
83 Porsche 944 ITS

[924Guy]

Thanks for the input, Greg - glad to hear they're still doing well!

[JeffYoung]

Good to hear the weight change worked like it should.

Is that Corrado the old Bildon Corrado? That car had some straight line skonk....

[Gregf]

That would be the one. It will pull the headlights out of just about anything on the straights when he is running his 2.9l. A good 325is or RX 7 will pull me by 3 or 4 car lengths and he pulls them by the same. Greg F.