WGI Fun One Crash

[Seabee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqRrjFiuIXA

Here the ITA crash with me and Bruce Perry.

He tried to save it and car was too unpredictable. Thought I had him cleared on the right.

Sucks.

[DoubleXL240Z]

Dayumm that sucks!! It did look like you had him cleared! Crap, sorry to see that!

[JLawton]

Oh my.........................

[Andy Bettencourt]

Spinning car: no two feet in. Looks like one foot to the floor. If he had gone 2FI, you would have been able to go drivers left. Bummer.

And why all the bump-drafting? You could have been clear of that mess twice over!!! :)

Glad you are ok. If you want to drive again this year after the NARRC, come get my car.

[StephenB]

I am really sorry to see that. you were minding your own business with a front seat and got pulled on stage.

[gran racing]

Damn. That really does suck.


And why all the bump-drafting?

I was wondering the same thing and why you didn't make two passes instead of bumping the other car?

[ShelbyRacer]

He tried to save it and his driving was too unpredictable.

Fixed that for ya.

A serious second to Andy's question though- it appears to be that if you'd have cleared the other Miata at the exit of T1 (he *gave* you that spot and you refused it) I have to wonder if you'd have even been in the melee. Obviously it's easy to MMQB from the video, and I can't see if you have side traffic there (though it appears not).

I hope you're ok though. That was a hell of a hit, and some good hang time.

[ITA_honda]

How bad was Bruce's car? Mostly cosmetic? or was there damage done to the suspension? looks like you just clipped his left rear without hitting the wheel. Im sorry for what happened to your car :( Wrong place, wrong time.

[dave parker]

Double post.

[dave parker]

Unfortunate.
If Mr. Perry would have put both feet in neither he nor Mr. Frederick would have to do any body work.
Although I have to agree with Andy, I would have spent less time bump drafting and more time passing.
Too bad. Hopefully there is something left to salvage.

cheers
dave parker

[Bill Miller]

Glad you're ok enough to post that. How sore are you today? And I also have to agree w/ Andy, BFI was the way to go, especially once it was totally sideways in the middle of the turn. Glad no one was seriously hurt.

[Ed Funk]

Don't think Steve would have had time to make either pass (instead of the bump), certainly not between 1 & 2. If he had attempted the passes, he would have been in the same situation as "The Chopper" was on Kirk....just a bumper....and then would have had to breathe the throttle or "PIT" the other Miata. Either of those would have been at best slower than what he did.

Just an old fart's opinion.

[Matt93SE]

I'm with Ed on the passing comments. given the closing speed between cars, he wouldn't have been able to make a complete pass, then he's stuck trying to scrub off more speed to not hit the car in front.

My main question is WTF was the yellow car doing? passed him like he was standing still on the first straight, then he came FLYING by you a couple turns later? did he finally get the nawz hooked up? dang!

[benspeed]

Holy crap! That sucks - I hope everybody is OK and repairs aren't too expensive. When we came up on the scene I was suprised to see a car on its roof! From my in-car video you can't see much, just the emergency vehicles. The in-car of that crash is intense. What fell into the camera view at the end when the car is upside down?

[Seabee]

Both of us are ok. Bruce's car looks like it had LR suspension damage.

This was lap 2 of what was going to be 18 laps. Maybe I am bit more patient with my passes. The black car rushed turn 1 and had a bit slower exit speed. I have never raced against this person so I was a bit more cautious.

On Sat I followed a car passing a Flatout car into turn 2 and he chopped down on me. If I would have had a more typical SCCA attitude I would have spun the kid. But I backed out as his RR came across my nose.

Maybe I am too much of a gentleman racer than most of the bullshit-make-it-happen-right-now effen attitude I see out there.

Sure I could what if all kinds of options. I could have taken an agressive right track line to block Bruce. But for me it was not the time to do that. Too much racing to happen.

I think Bruce was bit upset he messed up turn 11 and wanted to get back asap. Rushed the turn into the bus stop. And tried to save it. I thought his trajectory would go right and I started left. But that gap was closing so I tried the right the same time he decided to step on brakes.

[dave parker]

Maybe I am too much of a gentleman racer than most of the bullshit-make-it-happen-right-now effen attitude I see out there.


Mr. Frederick
I like the gentleman racer attitude that you display.
I wish that more SCCA drivers would realize that is the proper attitude to take.
You can race with me anytime.
I hope that you can come back from this and race again.

We try to teach in drivers school "When you spin, both feet in until you come to a complete stop". Unfortunately, there are many drivers that forget mantra when the moment of truth arrives.
It may save your weekend, it will certainly save someone else's.

I have been where you are now. It is tough. Hang in there.

cheers
dave parker

[Andy Bettencourt]

On the bump drafting, we have to remember here that this is an ITA car with some HP vs. SM's. I think he could have driven right around the first car out of 1-2. In both cases he has a ton of closing speed.

But Steve IS a gentleman racer. :smilie_pokal:

Me, not so much. :D

[CSPTK]

On the bump drafting, we have to remember here that this is an ITA car with some HP vs. SM's.



Steve is in an ITA car bumping an "S" car (99' without the plate).

[Andy Bettencourt]

Steve is in an ITA car bumping an "S" car (99' without the plate).

Which still has less HP than Steve.

[slopok]

My 2 cents is that bruce perry should have never attempted that pass at that moment from viewing the video. More patience is needed guys.

[Bruce Perry]

Bruce Perry here. Now that I have had time to study the Steve's video and mine, I think I can comment.

Steve is right that I made a mistake and found myself in the wrong gear exiting turn 11. Once I recovered I picked up Steve's tow and had a good run at the end of the straight.

I completely agree that I showed NO PATIENCE in the situation and screwed up. I should have been happy to ease in front of Steve and behind the black car. I might have survived if the black car had given me room but he wouldn't have expected me to try the pass from so far back.

The rear of the black car hit my front, my car turned right and I corrected which caused it to spin to the left. For me it seemed like slow motion, like a slow lazy slide, so I kept my foot in to try to catch it.

I absolutely did go TFI but my mistake was that I continued to try to catch it too long. At what point do you give up and go TFI? Obviously earlier than I did here...

I looked to the left and saw Steve coming. I thought he was going to miss me and I pushed on the pedals as hard as I could but I was still unpredictable. Ironically, if I had stayed on the gas I would have had a force vector pushing me toward the duck pond and Steve might have made it. But since I had gone TFI the car's momentum caused the car to continue to the outside.

I have been racing for a long time and I consider myself a gentleman racer. I am the first one to complain about contact on the track. I am appauled at the outcome of this situation that I caused. My head is hanging low...

[slopok]

Well guys enough said on the subject. Everyone should admit their fault and move on with it. Unfortunately not everyone does (ego). The sad part is that cars are still trashed.

[kcolbey]

Holy crap! That sucks - I hope everybody is OK and repairs aren't too expensive. When we came up on the scene I was suprised to see a car on its roof! From my in-car video you can't see much, just the emergency vehicles. The in-car of that crash is intense. What fell into the camera view at the end when the car is upside down?
My video is pretty much the same, only difference is that I can barely make out a Miata rolling in the distance.
Glad that you're alright Steve. It looked like a really wild ride from where I was.

[Seabee]

Bruce thanks for chiming in. We have raced each other hard and clean and this was a situation that happened and we hopefully can all learn. I like the play hard and then sit and chat with a beer.

Bruce and I talked about this and shook hands. There was no screaming or yelling.

I won't get to a full assessment of the car for a little while but it will be back someday. A-pillar, hardtop, door, fenders, hood, bumper cover, radiator support, LF suspension, hub, wheel, tire and most likely some frame pulling. Once I pull off the stuff it will make it easier to look.

Let me comment about some other things over the weekend I witnessed.

In Saturday's race an ITS 240z passed me and other cars during a full course yellow through 8 flag stations. Yup 8 flag stations before he stopped passing. Gave none of the spots back and was only given a stop and go. WHAT!

I was in the stands watching the Saturday SM* and ITB/C race. Watched the field of SM* cars pass from what I could see 3 RED FLAG stations. And they were not coasting by the RED FLAGS it was full on.

Again I would like to thank Bruce for offering he view and comments.

[Ed Funk]

Hey Bruce, what's TFI? You have three feet? 8^)

[jjjanos]

We try to teach in drivers school "When you spin, both feet in until you come to a complete stop". Unfortunately, there are many drivers that forget mantra when the moment of truth arrives.

Supplemental Event Rules addition
Rule 49 - Required actions and punishments when spinning
49.1: When spinning, drivers shall lock down their car by applying sufficient pressure to the brake pedal to lock the wheels in position.
49.2: Judges shall determine using the available evidence whether a driver has completed the requirements of 49.1
49.3: Drivers found out of compliance with rule 49.1 agree, by entering the competition, to accept 3 points on their driving license and a 3-event probation.
49.4: If judges determine that contact between cars occurs due to a failure to comply with rule 49.1, a driver agrees, by entering this competition, to accept the penalties specified in 49.3 and a 30-day suspension of competition privileges.
49.4: All flaggers are considered judges for the purposes of this rule.

I refer you to 5.11.3.B for the expediency of this enforcement action.

[ner88]

[QUOTE=
The rear of the black car hit my front, . ...[/QUOTE]
Interesting take....:rolleyes:

[jumbojimbo]

Supplemental Event Rules addition
Rule 49 - Required actions and punishments when spinning
49.1: When spinning, drivers shall lock down their car by applying sufficient pressure to the brake pedal to lock the wheels in position.
49.2: Judges shall determine using the available evidence whether a driver has completed the requirements of 49.1
49.3: Drivers found out of compliance with rule 49.1 agree, by entering the competition, to accept 3 points on their driving license and a 3-event probation.
49.4: If judges determine that contact between cars occurs due to a failure to comply with rule 49.1, a driver agrees, by entering this competition, to accept the penalties specified in 49.3 and a 30-day suspension of competition privileges.
49.4: All flaggers are considered judges for the purposes of this rule.

I refer you to 5.11.3.B for the expediency of this enforcement action.

Why not just have a rule prohibiting spinning in the first place?

[lawtonglenn]

Interesting take....:rolleyes:


honest officer, his chin hit me right in the fist... eight times!

[jjjanos]

Why not just have a rule prohibiting spinning in the first place?

There are sanctioning bodies that have rules along those lines. You spin, you do a self-enforced drive-through or get a steward-issued black flag.

I thought the objective was to do something about chowderheads who don't put both feet in during a crash. Apparently all you want to do is bitch and moan about it until the next episode of Project Runway.

[ner88]

honest officer, his chin hit me right in the fist... eight times!
And, I thought I was on an Island all by myself! Thanks:happy204:

I read it as "Its my fault but....."

[jumbojimbo]

There are sanctioning bodies that have rules along those lines. You spin, you do a self-enforced drive-through or get a steward-issued black flag.

I thought the objective was to do something about chowderheads who don't put both feet in during a crash. Apparently all you want to do is bitch and moan about it until the next episode of Project Runway.

Way to get personal right off the bat. And don't worry, I get to watch PR on DVR thanks to my wife.

I agree it is important to make people responsible for their actions and improved training and awareness are a good things. But you can't legislate split second judgement. A draconian rule like this seems useless, even counterproductive since you can't possibly enforce it. Corner works as judges in a 3 car spin? Doubtful.

We already have a rule that says "keep control of your car". There is no reason a protest couldn't be filed that the spinner didn't do that in this case, and not just the initial bad judgement on the pass, but also the lack of control after the spin. No reason you couldn't give a judgement of "yeah, that was bad, don't do it again, points and probation".

And over time if a person did things like this it would build up and show on the record. the issue is that only the most egregious conduct gets punished, and not even that 9 times out of 10. And seems like unless someone is getting the death penalty the trend is decide no fault. If responsibility is shared we call it a racing incident and now one is responsible.

We've lost the ability to put minor dings on people's records and keep track to see if it is a trend. For example, it seems like Ray should get a relatively big ding. Not suspension, not the death penalty, but something. Kirk should maybe get a minor ding even though virutally none of us think he had any real respoonsibility.

Kirk can disagree if I'm wrong but i think he would gladly accept a minor ding on his record for two reasons. first, he's an adult and he accepts that he might have had a bit of responsibility (whether we agree or not). But more important kirk knows that 5 years from now that small ding would be the only mark on his record. But the way it stands now everyone in that incident will have the same complete lack of any marks on their record 5 years from now.

[Flyinglizard]

I love the , "his rear end hit my car". Precious.

The camera car was very easy in the brake zone(maybe 100ft) giving a lot of room to the car in front. I watched some others vids of his and he is very consistent, way early braking. This may lead to getting passed and tight situations in the turn in area/apex.

The banzai/inside brake passing car had his head someplace else, and than panicked , resulting in his car stopped on track. Two bad moves , not one. Spin is acceptable, lack of head to have your car stopped on track is not,IMHO.
Please dont do this again... :)
Looks like lots of issues at the Glen. Guys spinning cars up the hill?? really ? Missed red flag?
bad show guys. SCCA guys are supposed to be well trained.

[jjjanos]

Way to get personal right off the bat. And don't worry, I get to watch PR on DVR thanks to my wife.

Way to offer nothing constructive in your first post.



But you can't legislate split second judgement.It's done all the time, perhaps not in our hobby, but it's called a conditioned reflex. More importantly, if it takes you more than a split-second to determine that you are in a spin and your immediate reaction to that realization is not both feet in, you shouldn't be in a race car.


A draconian rule like this seems useless, even counterproductive since you can't possibly enforce it. Corner works as judges in a 3 car spin? Doubtful.Ahhh, so the inability to accurately judge in every situation renders the rule useless in all situations... right......


We already have a rule that says "keep control of your car". There is no reason a protest couldn't be filed that the spinner didn't do that in this case, and not just the initial bad judgement on the pass, but also the lack of control after the spin.Ignore whether there is a pass. Car spins in a corner, all alone. Fails to lock it down. Rolls back into another competitor who has plenty of room on the other side but just didn't get there in time. Exactly what rule has been broken? Avoidance of contact? You think that a judicial system that lets Chopper walk away unpunished from blatant contact will find him guilty in this situation? 6.11.1.C - Abrupt changes? Yeah.. that's going to happen.

You leave this to the discretion of the CS for a CSA or the ruling of the SoMs and nobody is going to get punished or, if they do, it will be a slap on the wrist. The punishment has to be sufficient that if you do it two or three times, you sit out for a while.

And who is going to initiate the hearing when you spin and no other cars are present or hit? You honestly think that a system where officials actively attempt to dissuade protests will generate a CSA or RFA? And we need to enforce this always because that's what conditions you to do it always.


No reason you couldn't give a judgement of "yeah, that was bad, don't do it again, points and probation". Are you new to SCCA? You aren't going to get that out of the current system.


And over time if a person did things like this it would build up and show on the record. the issue is that only the most egregious conduct gets punished, and not even that 9 times out of 10. And seems like unless someone is getting the death penalty the trend is decide no fault. If responsibility is shared we call it a racing incident and now one is responsible. Which is what I am proposing. I simply remove it from the current judicial process and sentencing phase because it has proven to be grossly incapable of action.

Also check out what being on probation actually means in the GCR --
7.2.G.2 A driver on probation may be restricted to competing in his Division; limited to competing in certain types of levels of events; or required to perform specified event related activities, including attending an SCCA Drivers’ School.I.e. Nothing related to cleaning up your act while on course. Probation only matters because it brings the automatic 3 points on your record.

[StephenB]

I love the , "his rear end hit my car". Precious.

The camera car was very easy in the brake zone(maybe 100ft) giving a lot of room to the car in front. I watched some others vids of his and he is very consistent, way early braking. This may lead to getting passed and tight situations in the turn in area/apex.

The banzai/inside brake passing car had his head someplace else, and than panicked , resulting in his car stopped on track. Two bad moves , not one. Spin is acceptable, lack of head to have your car stopped on track is not,IMHO.
Please dont do this again... :)
Looks like lots of issues at the Glen. Guys spinning cars up the hill?? really ? Missed red flag?
bad show guys. SCCA guys are supposed to be well trained.

Have you raced at the Glen? From your comments I am guessing not. The passing car that spun was going "normal speed" and probably didn't expect the other car to slow as much and had to make the move to the inside at an attempted pass to avoid contact. I think he did real well at not taking out the first car but then lost it trying to pinch it in and stay on top of the curve. I really think all of us (including now me) are lame for creating so much drama over this. The drivers themselves already talked about it as they should have. I would say this was a racing incident that we can all learn from but I don't think we should be disrespecting any of them. that bus stop is taken at high speed over probably over 100mph and you only get the chance to make 1 decision.

AND REALLY... are you going to try and change another thread to about how amazing chumpcar is and why SCCA is so bad. Come-on...

As far as protests and misconduct... encourage YOUR region or even YOUR race group to start a log. Here in the NER we have a redbook that documents poor judgement and contacts. I think it works well and for the most part everyone around here plays nice.

Stephen

[gran racing]

You spin, you do a self-enforced drive-through or get a steward-issued black flag.

I actually was in a somewhat similar situation in my last race at the Glen earlier this year. Really wanted to get by a somewhat slower car (had straightline) and attempted to make a somewhat aggressive move in the bus stop. Realized that it might not work, spun off to the right. Watched a bunch of cars go by, but was predictable and made sure to spin off track. Worked my way back up into 2nd. :)

[jumbojimbo]

Yes, but you can't remove judgement. You still have judgement about whether I actually went TFI or the car was just sliding, or the brakes were just hot. And worse, you have judgement about whether it was the right thing to do at all. You are really going to ding a guy who is sliding backward off track 4 feet from the edge and lets it roll back out of harms way? Instead you want him to stop on track and potentially get hit?

We both want the same thing I think. I want to get dinged. I want other people to get dinged. I want to be able to show that I have 3 dings after 5 years and other people have 15 dings after 2.

I don't have the rulebook in front of me but surely a person who spins 5 times in a race (even solo spins) has violated a rule and can be dinged. Do that 3 races in a row and something should be happening. Right now you get nothing except people making fun of you.

Yes, SCCA culture is an issue. Member since 89. And yes, it would be a real problem if GLD was actively dinging people and NEDiv wasn't. But it seems like an event with multiple destroyed cars with no actions is not the way we should be running this show.

[StephenB]

it seems like an event with multiple destroyed cars with no actions is not the way we should be running this show.

I would certainly agree with that.

Stephen

[Flyinglizard]

Sorry Steve, I never mentioned anything about Chumpcar. Didnyt mean to offend you.
Yes, I have around 10,000 miles on WGI. The bustop and into T 5, is one of my favorite areas of all tracks. Takes big balls to keep it planted around 5.
The banzia car was clearly way over , while the camera car was a little slow into the bustop. The braking distance between cars is just a school type of room, " Spin Room " for the car in front. Considerate.
Bumpdrafting that hard would tell me that you had plenty of V to make most of a pass.
There is maybe 1.5 sec left in the car; on brakes, T 5, T 6 entry, T 9 entry, Etc. ( based on your other vids.)Soft turn ins.
When you say to yourself that "I cant possibly go any faster", then you wont.
I am sorry Steve , That is how I see it.

[jjjanos]

Yes, but you can't remove judgement. You still have judgement about whether I actually went TFI or the car was just sliding, or the brakes were just hot. And worse, you have judgement about whether it was the right thing to do at all. You are really going to ding a guy who is sliding backward off track 4 feet from the edge and lets it roll back out of harms way? Instead you want him to stop on track and potentially get hit?

Determining whether someone locked down their car will always require judgement. I'm just happier leaving it to the eyes of corner workers than SoMs. I'm happier leaving it an automatic penalty than to the invertebrate behavior of those who determine punishments. Two-feet in until you stop or at a position to resume race-direction. Then you wait for the flaggers to give you the point to move your car.

As for releasing your brakes at the last moment to roll of track... congratulations, your race car is no longer predictable. Racer X has seen your speed and your trajectory. He has a car to his left on the inside, he has you sideways to the front and he is aiming for the 4 feet of track to the outside because that's the hole. BAM! You filled the hole by your failure to go TFI for the entire incident.


We both want the same thing I think.

I agree.


I don't have the rulebook in front of me but surely a person who spins 5 times in a race (even solo spins) has violated a rule and can be dinged.

Pretty certain that you could spin 40 times in a 10-lap race and, if that's all your did, you would not be in violation of any rule.


But it seems like an event with multiple destroyed cars with no actions is not the way we should be running this show.

I agree. Someone should have come away from this event with a major black mark on their record.