SCCA ideas

[Flyinglizard]

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13860&p=122192#p122192
This is a link to the prod board,discussing SCCA ideas.
Getting rid of the National/Regional license. All good by me.
MM

[team-gpracing]

Check it out. Voice your opinion. We can all help.

[Spinnetti]

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13860&p=122192#p122192
This is a link to the prod board,discussing SCCA ideas.
Getting rid of the National/Regional license. All good by me.
MM

Read your last post there, and you summed it up well. As to the medical, you guys may not be aware, but light aviation suffers the same problems as the SCCA. Its just too much hassle. You know how they solved it? Yep, Show your drivers license, do minimal training and fly. Surely that should be the model. I find it really hard to believe the FAA allows you to fly on a drivers license, but somehow its "impossible" in the SCCA. They limit the performance of the vehicle for that license and operating parameters (day/vfr), but by you can get in the air much easier now, not to mention ultralights which require practically nothing. SCCA needs to do the same. Let people do the lowest level road racing like lemons (ultralights?) with practically nothing, and a bit more for IT (Sport light equiv) and move up from there. Want to go faster? Jump through more hoops. You need to allow the "gateway drug" to get people in the door, and those that really like it will take the next steps as their racing career progresses, and those that want to stay at the bottom or can't afford to move up? They still have a place to run. I find it interesting that regardless of domain, how few people will look outside what they already know for solutions that have already been developed... This is a people, perception and marketing issue, not a technical one.

[924Guy]

Good points re: the medical there... especially since the current system ain't doing the job (we have plenty of drivers dropping dead on-track now, it seems, despite passing their medical)...

[Flyinglizard]

FWIW I designed, built and learned how to fly my own UL airplane. No license of any kind. http://pou.guide.free.fr/connaitre/gretchen/gretchen_mike_ogren.html

Slightly off topic but, yes, no med required.
What really is the difference of the cost of insurance over the driver license medical??
Maybe we need to look harder at the insurance coverage and see what really is needed today.

[tom91ita]

Lemons doesn't require a medical. Why can't SCCA cite those race orgs when developing standards.

[Z3_GoCar]

Built on the pattern of the Mignet Flying Flee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mignet_Pou-du-Ciel

Just be carefull on the approach, see the accident section...

[Flyinglizard]

My plane is a lot closer to Runtan's craft than it is to Flea. Mostly the pitch moment arm is vastly greater for "Gretchen" than it is on the Flea.

RE; meds,,
Ihav e been told that the insurance is way different. I really dont know .

[Andy Bettencourt]

Lemons doesn't require a medical. Why can't SCCA cite those race orgs when developing standards.

I think there are slightly higher standards to be met when your organization provides a $1M accidental death insurance policy for it's members.

[gran racing]

What's wrong with getting a medical? I asked my doctor why in the world they aren't doing this normally.

[jumbojimbo]

What's wrong with getting a medical? I asked my doctor why in the world they aren't doing this normally.

I agree, the medical is a good idea and in reality is not much of a burden. But the perception is that the SCCA process is overly complicated.

So far we have to assume that SCCA has decided that the requirements like medical test, school, etc add value. Andy makes a good point though, it seems easy to just throw out the medical requirement because it maybe doesnt' really make things safer. But does that raise the cost of our accidently death insurance? Changes are not without consequences and costs.

[Chip42]

so in short what the club (and we as members of it) needs to do is advertise the advantages of the systems we have, and help clarify and streemline the documentation for the process which is not actually difficult.

[Ron Earp]

So in short what the club (and we as members of it) need to do is advertise the advantages of the systems we have,change the ones that suck, and help clarify and streamline the documentation for the processes which are okay.

Fixed that for you.

[Flyinglizard]

If we are member driven; How about we get real numbers concerning the ins/ medical relationship? How do we go about getting those numbers,John?
can we vote??
What about changing the death clause/ins, to "optional"?? No medical= no death clause coverage.
You want the coverage? Bring a valid med form. You want to race? bring a valid DL.
This could be for under 2.6litre closed cars also maybe . Anything to get more people hooked, IMHO. Without undue exposure.

[Chip42]

what about the guys in white, crew, other workers? that insurance covers everyone. the club has it to protect everyone, and it requires a certain level of adherance that might seem hard for you to swallow, and might make it seem less attractive compared to chump etc... but when a worker gets a wheel to the head and is killed or severely injured, it's helpful. I agree that the unnatractiveness is an issue, but the coverage IS VERY GOOD. sell it that way rather than just bitching that we aren't chump car.

I honestly don't know what NASA has, but I'd be interested in finding out how they and chump / lemons / PCA / BMWCCA / etc... do it.

things need fixing but lets not take away what IS GREAT about the club just so that we seem more attractive compared to something that isn't trying to accomplish the same thing.

[jjjanos]

I think there are slightly higher standards to be met when your organization provides a $1M accidental death insurance policy for it's members.

If you have a heart attack while driving, chances are the $1m accidental death policy won't pay a penny. Death by heart attack isn't an accidental death -- just saying.

[jumbojimbo]

If you have a heart attack while driving, chances are the $1m accidental death policy won't pay a penny. Death by heart attack isn't an accidental death -- just saying.

But to Chip's point, you have a heart attack and run over a worker, that would pay off wouldn't it? The point is not to make YOU not die, it is to protect everyone else.

[tom91ita]

I completely forgot about the insurance. Valid points. Thanks.

Part of what I wanted to convey though is that SCCA seems to combine of the more restrictive aspects of various club/benchmarks. Industry standards are not consistent, IMO.

If we wanted the physicals to be "better" then perhaps they should include stress tests if over 55, etc.

[jjjanos]

But to Chip's point, you have a heart attack and run over a worker, that would pay off wouldn't it? The point is not to make YOU not die, it is to protect everyone else.

1. The $1mn is for medical expenses.
2. It is secondary coverage. I.e. It covers what your primary insurance does not cover.

I.e. you run over the corner worker and he's under 65 and doesn't have insurance coverage, they pay. If he's got insurance, it'll pay his out of pocket expenses and, when/if his primary coverage is exhausted, the policy kicks in.

The coverage probably is pretty damn cheap since it is secondary. Plus, most of our members will get covered under Medicare Part A if they get hospitalized.

The death benefit is $25K.

[Flyinglizard]

The TT and PDX drivers have no med requirement. Same day same workers. same track.

[tom91ita]

............ most of our members will get covered under Medicare Part A if they get hospitalized.



LOL! :happy204:

[Flyinglizard]

There seems to be a Market for; Cheap Endurance racing. SCCA endurance racing allows mega $ tires, some allow fuel rigs. Chumpcar/lemons does not. Do we need to adjust to market?
Many Chumpcar drivers are EX SCCA, and current SCCA.
As far as I can tell, not many Chumps will tow 4hrs and race for 40min. I dont think that we can get many of those drivers. maybe.

I still hope for a 2hr or longer race at twilight for anyone that that runs on 180TW or higher tires. Lights on ,dark is good, and brings drivers.
The PBOC race gets 60 teams for the 6 hr race @ Sebring every time, @ 600$.

Market for single day, 3-4session days. Less expenses, more driving on track. Can SCCA adjust?

The next race @ Sebring has 2 practice/qualifying sessions on Sat, 2 races on Sun. Why cant the qualifying session be a race?? Race good , lapping only fair. Lots of time sitting around. Todays kids dont want that. Todays adults dont want that either.IMHO, Esp with some many alternatives that are track time intense. .

Market for ; cheap race cars with limited rules.
A kid and Dad can build/prep a Chumpcar/lemons. Where can SCCA adjust?
FWIW my Son and I work on his HP Rocco, Why does he like his car?/ Cuz it has a chance to win. As stated elsewhere, racer has no chance to win, racer stays home. He ran really well last time out and got inspired to remove the 60# that we were over. If he got smoked he would have stayed at school, sleeping in.
When he bought his car, it was ITB, went home and looked at the IT board. Not good feelings about washer bottles, axle cages, etc. He said that we should just run the car in prod on free tires, as the lap times were not much faster. he's usually right.

[Cobrar05]

* nasa which many here consider the land of the lawless has the same medical requirements as scca. i have a heart condition and i am required to do a stress echo every year for both scca and nasa doctors. scca is not worse than other groups.

* chump/lemons racing is fun. i am sure. i race a grand am spec mustang, however. i share my run group as a rules with gt1/trans am cars and spo/stock cars among others. at tracks like road atlanta and vir those cars are hitting 180mph plus. my car is at 150mph plus. i am willing to speculate that conditions and requirements for racing a crapcan and a trans am car are different and need to be.

* scca can operate as if they think they are the fia and this is a formula one series. getting a car annual teched or even classed in scca can be ridiculous. the inspectors seem to relish in failing someone. i guess it makes sense to the extent that its how they participate.

[downingracing]

...Market for ; cheap race cars with limited rules..

Already there - IT.


A kid and Dad can build/prep a Chumpcar/lemons. Where can SCCA adjust?..

No adjustment needed - A kid and a Dad can build/prep an IT car. Easy to do - and already being done (by many).


FWIW my Son and I work on his HP Rocco, Why does he like his car?/ Cuz it has a chance to win..

Maybe at a Regional... With a low car count in HP... A low-buck effort will not put you at the front of the field. You can have a BLAST racing on a very small budget. But finishing at the top of the order usually takes more effort (money). Cheap, Fast, Reliable - Pick Two. :)


As stated elsewhere, racer has no chance to win, racer stays home. He ran really well last time out and got inspired to remove the 60# that we were over. If he got smoked he would have stayed at school, sleeping in.
When he bought his car, it was ITB, went home and looked at the IT board. Not good feelings about washer bottles, axle cages, etc. He said that we should just run the car in prod on free tires, as the lap times were not much faster. he's usually right.

There are TONS of people who come out racing that do not have a chance to 'win'. They DO have the chance to race HARD and have a GREAT time. Just because Ruck signs up for an event in ITA doesn't mean the rest of the ITA cars around here stay home. We show up and have GREAT races! And anyone who wants to compete for that top spot can put the effort in and improve to try and beat him. The rest of us are very happy with the close racing and great time! First place pays the same as 9th and the beer is free for everyone no matter of finishing position!

[downingracing]

[QUOTE=Cobrar05;340077...getting a car annual teched or even classed in scca can be ridiculous. the inspectors seem to relish in failing someone. i guess it makes sense to the extent that its how they participate.[/QUOTE]

Sorry you've had a bad experience with Tech. in 14 years (and a few 'new' cars/logbooks issued), I've had a handfull of 'issues'. Only ran into One person that was a problem/attitude/not-smart... Most issues were my fault and Tech worked with me to correct the issue every time. Annual Tech is usually a non-event for a car that has a logbook. Even getting a new logbook issued is easy (can be easy). Of course nothing has been as easy as my NASA logbook. No one got within 50 feet of the car and just created me a logbook off the SCCA logbook. :blink:

[Flyinglizard]

Downing. ^The participation #s say otherwise.
Is there need to look at one day events? maybe
Is there need have nice people in tech? yes.
SCCA tech has been a pain ( CFR, Not Glen of NE at all. CFR). I understand that I am a lot of the problem. But maybe we should pay these guys and get rid of the volunteers. same with registration. Pay some HS person to sit inthe office for the day so that guest can get in.
Treat our customers, and guest, like we want them back.
I Understand that most of our volunteers are really nice people that have served our club really well.
These are small issues, in the big picture.
We just dont have the only game anymore. The racing is good in the classes with cars.
I get a little bothered by the race groups, here in the SE.For the 9/1 race, SM is with the prod cars. So we have cars playing bumper tag with cars with no bumpers. Not good. I call" the man" and he says that the supps have been published, nothing we can do. really?? total BS.
Answers like that that turn me off. Split the start at least.

IMHO.

[924Guy]

* scca can operate as if they think they are the fia and this is a formula one series. getting a car annual teched or even classed in scca can be ridiculous. the inspectors seem to relish in failing someone. i guess it makes sense to the extent that its how they participate.

Yeah - Detroit Region Tech is legendary in this regard. Thankfully it's not all of them, just most of them. But I agree, on a general level, with this statement... :blink:

Edit for more: I get it, as I think every driver does, that Tech is just part of trying to keep us all safe. But if I'm old enough to have a race license, I don't need to be treated like a schoolkid, with you trying to throw me curveballs and trick me. Especially if I know the GCR better than you anyway...

[Cobrar05]

Sorry you've had a bad experience with Tech. in 14 years (and a few 'new' cars/logbooks issued), I've had a handfull of 'issues'. Only ran into One person that was a problem/attitude/not-smart... Most issues were my fault and Tech worked with me to correct the issue every time. Annual Tech is usually a non-event for a car that has a logbook. Even getting a new logbook issued is easy (can be easy). Of course nothing has been as easy as my NASA logbook. No one got within 50 feet of the car and just created me a logbook off the SCCA logbook. :blink:

downing...i brought a mustang fr500c from grand am racing that was grand am current to its first scca race. the hoops that i and my poor mechanic friend had to jump thru to get that car a logbook were really frustrating. it took 2 hours if i recall correctly.

meanwhile your nasa cheap shot is noted. i race in the southeast. my cars have been teched by the pervayor of OPM and by the owner of Long Road Racing. they actually touched the car. often. almost constantly. so, you are saying they checked the current nature of your safety belts from 50ft plus with the aid of a magnifying device of some kind?

[Cobrar05]

protech,

concerning your comments in the other thread about the national system, its not an ego thing. i am certain of that. they race more seriously at that level. many of them are racing for serious contingency money. others have mfc sponsors that are already paying them. the lines between amatuer and professional at the national level get pretty blurred.

yes, its true. many scca national racers with hopes of a runoffs championship spend as much in an annual budget as a world challenge team might. they actually rent race tracks and test. i dont know many regional racers that have the budget to spend the same money or more that a typical race weekend would cost to test for two days trying to develope another 0.5 seconds of speed out of the car.

ive shared the race track with championship level trans am/gt1 drivers at vir and it cuts down on my fun. ive raced with serious drivers and they hit you as a matter of course if you are not quick enough on the throttle or brake too early.

in nasa they dont have any division between the elite and the just for fun racers. as an ai mustang driver, ive raced against grand am champions and mustang challenge race winners. you have to be as precise as you can be with them because they are that precise themselves. sometimes i want that kind of challenge. sometimes i just want to get some seat time and enjoy myself and dont want some guy breathing down my neck and bump drafting me at 150 mph.

[downingracing]

...meanwhile your nasa cheap shot is noted. i race in the southeast. my cars have been teched by the pervayor of OPM and by the owner of Long Road Racing. they actually touched the car. often. almost constantly. so, you are saying they checked the current nature of your safety belts from 50ft plus with the aid of a magnifying device of some kind?

Nope. I'm saying that when my NASA logbook was issued, there was 0 contact with the car. Car was no where near the garage I was in to have the book issued. No one looked at belts, no one looked at anything.

It is no secret that I'm not a NASA fan. I've run with them in the past and watched them over the years. I won't say I'll never run with them (with enough changes I would), but currently I will not.

What hoops did you have to jump thru at Tech to get a logbook? I don't know anything about a Grand-Am car and what class it slots into (if any) in club racing... Is it a direct 'fit' in a class? Do Grand-Am rules line up with SCCA club racing rules? (I really don't know)

[JohnW8]

The TT and PDX drivers have no med requirement. Same day same workers. same track.

TT drivers with a full license have a medical requirement as well. Novice license holders and PDX driver have no medical requirement.

[Flyinglizard]

I did not know that there were any TT drivers, with actual licenses. Thanks, MM

RE NASA tech , I had to swap my net. Not worn out, but over 5yrs. he went over the car pretty well. I did not have the SCCA logbook with me, as it was lost and SCCA failed to replace it.
" Please replace the book for this car"
"One page will get you through the weekend."
( The prior driver left it on the roof instead of in the pouch in the trunk.) Good times.

[Cobrar05]

Nope. I'm saying that when my NASA logbook was issued, there was 0 contact with the car. Car was no where near the garage I was in to have the book issued. No one looked at belts, no one looked at anything.

It is no secret that I'm not a NASA fan. I've run with them in the past and watched them over the years. I won't say I'll never run with them (with enough changes I would), but currently I will not.

What hoops did you have to jump thru at Tech to get a logbook? I don't know anything about a Grand-Am car and what class it slots into (if any) in club racing... Is it a direct 'fit' in a class? Do Grand-Am rules line up with SCCA club racing rules? (I really don't know)


nasa can be very different from region to region. i wont comment about your particular experience any further except to say that it bares no resemblance whatsoever to mine.

a mustang fr500c is a grand am gs class car. i ran it at the time in SEDiv class ITO. it does not slot directly into any scca beyond that, which is another issue i have with scca.

iirc, they spent a good hour arguing amonst themselves over my ford racing fia legal rollcage. they then decided they didnt like how my lap belts were mounted, which was grand am/nascar legal, and made us change it. i also recall them failing me because the car didnt have a fuel port. grand am takes fuel off the fuel rail at the injector.

of course, its not just me. its amatuer racing and sometimes, not every time for sure, getting your car teched in the scca is like going thru the room of doom in nascar.

there is not a chance in the world that i would tear down my engine because i got a podium finish in a national race.

[Spinnetti]

Built on the pattern of the Mignet Flying Flee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mignet_Pou-du-Ciel

Just be carefull on the approach, see the accident section...


I detected the Pou-u-Ciel in there too.... Created to prove you could make any horrible design fly!

I scratch built a composite 60% FW-190 WWII fighter, but sold it before done (should be flying by now)... a bit too small and single place... will do a two seater aluminum monocoque next time, 200mph+ :)

[bvondran]

Why not run time trials in conjunction with a regional/national weekend? As their own run group? Seems like there's a club race every weekend (or at least every other weekend) in each division. Add a run group that gets three sessions on Saturday and Sunday. Same rules on contact/racing/passing as currently exists within club trials/time trials rule book. You lose a lot of atmosphere when they are divorced from each other.

As trialers get competitive and they're around the racers, some will naturally start to crossover as they become familiar/more committed and want for more competition. Plus, you're building relationships between these folks, the race officials, and the racers. Even if they don't turn into racers, they may turn in to volunteers!

I know I would have focused more effort to ensure i got a lot more track time if there was a time trial championship (say, five events coinciding with a club race) as its much easier to get motivated to get the car ready for a competitive event rather than a basic PDX. Without the competitive aspect, at least for me, it's easy to find other places to put my efforts.

Also, can we please have more schools throughout the year? Not everyone can be ready to go to school in march/april. Some people can't prep the car over the winter due to jobs and other such stuff. How about a school in June-August? Maybe allow racers to sign up and get some valuable seat time (they could be in different run groups, or there may be value in having them in the same run group as the rookies, sort of a baptism by fire).

I know this would have had a significant impact on getting my own arse to the track to get my license. Im an accountant, so my January-April is shot. The next available driver school isn't until October at Watkins Glen ($$$$$$) and its only a single, so I would have to catch one the next spring anyways.

Please don't take this as wanting to tailor the scca to just myself. I have a car and I'm making the effort to make a school next year (only need tires, decals, drivers suit and Hans!), just throwing some stuff on the wall to see if something sticks. I love the scca and can't wait to go racing.

Brian
Mahoning Valley Region

[downingracing]

...iirc, they spent a good hour arguing amonst themselves over my ford racing fia legal rollcage. they then decided they didnt like how my lap belts were mounted, which was grand am/nascar legal, and made us change it. i also recall them failing me because the car didnt have a fuel port. grand am takes fuel off the fuel rail at the injector...

I figured it was something like that. The car doesn't fit to a class and so it 'fits' in ITO. That makes tech tough(er) than taking a car that conforms to the rules in the GCR and giving it an annual tech/new logbook. Just because something is grand am/nascar legal doesn't mean it is OK for another sanctioning body. Same can go for the cage. And missing the fuel test port is another thing they are going to look at. Rules for some of those things (cage, belts, test port) are pretty 'firm' (for most sanctioning bodies). Those aren't excuses for the time taken - just an explanation of why sometimes it takes a while. (They can tech X, Y and Z easy but when an L shows up to be teched in class M - IT can get interesting)


there is not a chance in the world that i would tear down my engine because i got a podium finish in a national race.

You won't be asked to pull the head at a National race. You will (probably) be asked at the RunOffs.

If you get protested, you have the option to not tear down and take the penalty that goes with it - your choice. But so you know - anyone who won't tear down is probably cheating. The bond to tear down is paid by the person filing the paper and you get the money for the rebuild if/when the motor (part) is found legal. I welcome the protest for my crank, rods, whatever is down deep in the motor so I can get that 'free' rebuild. :)

[Cobrar05]

matt

i am a pretty easy going guy. i can even get by with one silly nitpik. i wish i could remember the exact details of that particular tech nightmare. it was two hours of shaking my head.

i am far from the only guy that has this particular complaint. i am more careful now about which regions i will allow my car to be annualed.

[downingracing]

matt

i am a pretty easy going guy. i can even get by with one silly nitpik. i wish i could remember the exact details of that particular tech nightmare. it was two hours of shaking my head.

i am far from the only guy that has this particular complaint. i am more careful now about which regions i will allow my car to be annualed.

Me too! The ONLY tech issue I had was getting an annual out of division. Ran across the 'one' guy with no clue and it was an issue. The next tech guy at the same event started getting on me for what I'd done at the request of his co-worker. Then had an interesting conversation with that original tech worker that was 'fun' to listen to. Learned that lesson 10 years ago and make it a point to have my annual done in my division/region before I go racing for the year. :)

[Cobrar05]

tech should be about safety and thats it. rules compliance should be up to class administration only.

[Knestis]

But to Chip's point, you have a heart attack and run over a worker, that would pay off wouldn't it? The point is not to make YOU not die, it is to protect everyone else.

Socialist. ;)

K

[Flyinglizard]

Topic.
Started out looking for ideas to improve the SCCA experience.
I didnt really think that tech could put off some many people.. And that it was a topic for another thread. But maybe it is a crucial part of our racers going elsewhere.
Tech seems to piss off a lot of members. My drivers have had some issue s, many actually.
I called National ,talked to the head of club tech( or ast,Ryan Miles) .
Simple question; Does SCCA have a written protocol, or customer interface guide, that is handed out to the tech Chiefs??

***WE need Tech to have a customer relations guide."***

Tech should not be hit or miss. it should be the same Nationwide IMHO.
Tech is usally the second interface with new customers. We need to treat these people nicer., simple.
I am guessing that the GA/WC car has the cage tabbed into the A pillars , SO for the pro cars. Maybe also the master switch is not SCCA club located. We have had the same issues with Nascar racecars coming to SCCA.
The fuel port thing is another issue that you all know that is not worth the print. (Actually less safe.)
All we ask is that tech looks at the car and verifies it as safe or not.
Rules are not the issue here. Logbooks can be noted with a pleasant tone of voice and a smile.
"Thanks for coming, hope to see you again"

RE Brian;
Racing schools;
How can any region not have 2 schools in the beginning of each racing season?? WE need to get the new guys' cash before it gets re appropriated ,to things like food. No really, The new guy does a school and has to sit or drive out of region to do another??
Any region that has 1 school a year,or a school in the last month of the year, has a poor business model, IMHO.
With the PDX coming around and selling well, maybe the 1 school drivers could do some PDX time and get the NP.

**2 schools in the beginning of the year**

Logical scheduling; Again,( CFR, 9/1 Sebring) we have 2 non race sessions on sat, Practice for 15min, qualify for 20min, "Total waste of time." (Wife.) cost us a overnight stay for nothing? , 100$ is 100$ that could be spent on beer.

Having the second session as a qualifying race would make all the difference. Having 3 sessions in one day would be nice. Having half of the groups, racing each day would make a lot of sense. Making it 2 , one day events. Minor bitch? maybe, but there are not many non pro events where you have two 20 min sessions per day. Any track day events( or NASA) have 3-4 sessions per day.
** 3 sessions or more each day**
** test one day events**

What else can make the SCCA weekend better??

Notes on NASA @ Sebring;
NASA grids the cars around the east/North paddock roads, and splits the pit exit road. cars come off and goon at the same time, saving lots of track time. the grid/loop holds about 50cars easy. well done.

SCCA has at least 5min or more, dead track time per group. Poor

NASA can change the format on the spot,,with a standup vote. " Do you want to race or qualify the second session?" Race of course. was the answer. Well done.

SCCA has the supps written in stone,, "We cant split the group, the supps are out , "
Really, you are going to race the SM with the prod cars? Can we get a split start?? "maybe" Poor,IMHO
MM

[team-gpracing]

More schools seems like a pretty smart idea.

I don't think that there should be any division between National and Regional. Each race should count toward a points system for the Runoffs. Get enough points and meet a 107% rule and you're in. Top 25 classes by participation get in the Runoffs. IT classes would of course be included. The only exception to allowance into the Runoffs would be a few classes that would be "exhibition only". For example, ITO down South, ITE up here. Considering it is basically an open class it wouldn't make much sense to run it at the Runoffs.

We need to simplify a lot of things in the SCCA. It can be very overwhelming to a newcomer. Too many regions with different rules, championships, etc.

[downingracing]

...Logical scheduling; Again,( CFR, 9/1 Sebring) we have 2 non race sessions on sat, Practice for 15min, qualify for 20min, "Total waste of time." (Wife.) cost us a overnight stay for nothing? , 100$ is 100$ that could be spent on beer.

Having the second session as a qualifying race would make all the difference. Having 3 sessions in one day would be nice. Having half of the groups, racing each day would make a lot of sense. Making it 2 , one day events. Minor bitch? maybe, but there are not many non pro events where you have two 20 min sessions per day. Any track day events( or NASA) have 3-4 sessions per day.
** 3 sessions or more each day**
** test one day events**

What else can make the SCCA weekend better??

Notes on NASA @ Sebring
MM

And this is the BIG issue. The things you see as a "Total waste of time" are (to some) a great tool to test and try new things. Scrub in tires, try a setting change, get comfortable in the seat again. If you take those practice/qual sessions away, you now force some to do a test day to accomplish what can be done in a single weekend. Now more time away from family/work/whatever to try and cram more racing into the weekend. Don't get me wrong - I'm a fan of a 'draw' for starting position and 4-5 races in a weekend. But I'm willing (and able) to take extra time off and pay for a test day or evening test session to scrub tires/brakes if needed.

Single day events - for me, I'll pass. I like spending the weekend at the track. I'm leaving Thursday to be at the track until Sunday. Instructing the PDX and driving the 2x regional. There is a One day option and on Sunday, that would be to start at the back of the qual. race (am) to determine starting postion for the race/race (pm). Already options for a single day or ful weekend with 2 sanctioned races. Test n tune Friday evening after the PDX, so plenty of track time that 'should' give enough options to make everyone happy.

What I'm trying to show is that changes to the structure to make a weekend better will always leave someone feeling that it got worse. My region added a 1hr race to the end of the day Sat. and a 10 lap handicap race to the end of the day Sun. (that pays cash to 1, 2 & 3). Both races are a BLAST and provide track time and fun for a very small fee on top of the weekend price. (IMHO) But some people were unhappy that a group was combined to make room for the other races. Even with 95% of the people being happy, those 5% who weren't now think that this is a bad idea and pass that feeling onto everyone they know.

If your region is struggling to get entries, maybe a change is in order. But blanket changes are not what is needed for club racing. Ideas that work in one region/division may or may not work in another.

[downingracing]

...Notes on NASA @ Sebring;
NASA grids the cars around the east/North paddock roads, and splits the pit exit road. cars come off and goon at the same time, saving lots of track time. the grid/loop holds about 50cars easy. well done.

SCCA has at least 5min or more, dead track time per group. Poor

The difference is to give the workers a minute to check the track, re-set, get a drink, pee... SCCA workers are volunteer - NASA pays the track for workers (at least here), so why would they care if they get a break at all... And those 5 minute 'dead track time' allow for time in the schedule should something go 'wrong'. The NASA schedule has 0 time for any on-track issue. If there is an issue in your group - too bad, you are out the time (and maybe other groups if the cleanup takes too long). SCCA schedule has that 'fluff' built in to try and ensure everyone gets their race/time in for the day. That 5 minutes can be 4, 3, 2 heck - it could even be 1. :)


NASA can change the format on the spot,,with a standup vote. " Do you want to race or qualify the second session?" Race of course. was the answer. Well done.

SCCA has the supps written in stone,, "We cant split the group, the supps are out , "
Really, you are going to race the SM with the prod cars? Can we get a split start?? "maybe" Poor,IMHO
MM

Again - Perspective. I like knowing what I signed up for before I show up at the track. I know when I'm racing and what the schedule is like. I do like the idea of having more 'flex' for scheduling and up here - we do. We just changed the race groupings when the groups weren't lining up like we thouoght they would. Not hard to do, but not as easy as making a change on the fly. (which is a good thing to me)

[StephenB]

Single day events - for me, I'll pass.


We (I) spend more on travel then I care to think about. I would have to be chasing a championship to EVER participate in a 1 day event. And I would never drive more than 3 hrs to a 1 day event.

I would suggest speaking to your region about having a lower entry fee for 1 day like we do here in the Northeast. Taht way you can pick if you want to go for 1 or 2 days. I think this will satisfy those that want just 1 day but not send away all the members like myself that like to go for the weekend.

I have neigbors that want to put together a chump car for a local event. Why? Because it was on the news and looked fun. Nothing more complicated then that. All this other stuff if fluff that some will like, some will not... I guarentee that if the news hyped up our SCCA events like they did things would be different!

Stephen

[StephenB]

More schools seems like a pretty smart idea.





Schools cost regions tons of money! Think about it... we get 150-250 entries at a normal event and the "break even" point is somewhere in the middle of that. The track charges the same amount of rent if we are doing a school or a race weekend. so to do more schools we need REALLY high participation or REALLY high fees! Or we need to think outside the box and mix it with a race weekend (which I am all for!)

My idea would be to have a FREE school session each weekend for people that do not have any license at all. This would be on Sunday night as the last group of the weekend. Sure your not going to get signed off but you can get a lot of track time hrs and then take the full school when it works for you. In exchange of that FREE session however you would need to work on a corner for that weekend. then come in just before the school session to get out on track. Or maybe make it part of the lunch hr and extend it just a little bit. Others that don't want to work can pay a fee (TBD)

Good luck in each of your own regions, make sure you share your ideas and don't get frustrated if things don't change. I think downing said it best that blanket changes would NOT be good for SCCA and you and your region need to see what your region can change and or do better.

[jhooten]

tech should be about safety and thats it. rules compliance should be up to class administration only.


Write the letter requesting the GCR be changed. Particularly sections 5.9.3.C paragraph 2 and 9.3.21

Having been on both sides of the tech table the attitude of workers in tech and the way they interact with drivers and crew has long been one of my pet peeves. I have had people with tech licenses tell me they will never work another race at which I am chief because I counseled them about their people skills on Saturday after releasing the last group from impound. The main thing I asked them to do was simply to treat the drivers and crew the way they expect to be treated were the roles reversed. It would seem that if some workers cannot bully they don't want to play. To be fair there are tech workers in the division who will go out of their way to take care of our "customers". If they fail your car it is because it was non-compliant, PERIOD. However I know of one inspection where the tech guy was there for over four hours while the car owner corrected the problems, issuing the car a log book the Sunday before a race weekend.

There are many good tech inspectors. Like police officers it is the bad ones that get the most publicity. When was the last time you saw someone make a forum post that said something like this "I went for an annual tech today and everything went well"?

[Flyinglizard]

Schools cost money. Schools add new customers to the pool of customers. The business term is loss leader.
I just dont understand how each region can live by being short sighted and turning away new faces on purpose.
Adding the PDX to the same weekend makes sense. maybe a vintage session or two each day.
Schools dont need to be on the big major dollar tracks. The regions could do well to use some smaller tracks. IMHO.

[jumbojimbo]

Write the letter requesting the GCR be changed.

Tech curmudgeons adequate as written.

[jumbojimbo]

Schools cost money. Schools add new customers to the pool of customers. The business term is loss leader.
I just dont understand how each region can live by being short sighted and turning away new faces on purpose.
Adding the PDX to the same weekend makes sense. maybe a vintage session or two each day.
Schools dont need to be on the big major dollar tracks. The regions could do well to use some smaller tracks. IMHO.

On the one hand, you are right, we have to find a way to get drivers certified throughout the season and not just at the start or end. Someone could buy a car in June and not be able to get a license and race before May of next year. "not able" also includes not feasible since someone buying a $3500 ITC car is not going to fly to CA to do a Barber school.

On the other hand I think you underestimate how much money can be lost on a school. Divisions can't afford to lose money on one school, let alone two. You can call that short sighted all you want but the money has to come from somewhere and there just isn't $20-30k sitting around waiting to be invested in 10-20 drivers.

so the challenge is how to improve on our current model of 1-2 traditional school per division early in the year, which clearly is a barrier to getting new drivers. Divisions have tried the "school in a race weekend" method before, but it suffers from the same issue as any school, track time costs money and anyone driving around in circles for an hour on the weekend is going to cost money. And it's hard to get enough school time in a race weekend. No one is going to want to attend 3 or 4 school/race weekends to get a license. Same issue with PDX/School. It's still track time and it still costs money and you can still only get a limited number of sessions on track.

Run a school at an off-label track? Now you get resistance from people who don't want to take a school at Nelson or "other track people love to hate". It lowers the cost/loss for the division but doesn't really solve anything the underlying issue.

"Vintage session or two each day". Non-starter, what vintage driver is going to show up for 1 session a day?

I think the alternate license program is the answer. I haven't heard much feedback on how that is going. I know of 1 driver in GLD who went thru that but he ran only two weekends before blowing the car up.

The downside of the alternate license program is that it will not just kill regular schools, it will drive a stake thru their heart, burn them and salt the ground around them. If you are already struggling to make a school financially workable, if you take 10 or 15 drivers a year out of the potential pool by letting them do the alternate license program, you just make the financials even worse for a traditional school. It didn't happen this year because the volume in the ADP was low, but if the volume ramps up at all, traditional schools are dead in the water. And if the volume in ADP doesn't ramp up, then it is not a solution, it's just one more problem.

Edit: "Loss leader?". Milk is a loss leader. Grocery stores don't give away 50 pounds of filet as a loss leader...

[bvondran]

so the challenge is how to improve on our current model of 1-2 traditional school per division early in the year, which clearly is a barrier to getting new drivers. Divisions have tried the "school in a race weekend" method before, but it suffers from the same issue as any school, track time costs money and anyone driving around in circles for an hour on the weekend is going to cost money. And it's hard to get enough school time in a race weekend. No one is going to want to attend 3 or 4 school/race weekends to get a license. Same issue with PDX/School. It's still track time and it still costs money and you can still only get a limited number of sessions on track.

Agreed, track time costs money. By the flip of the coin, it doesn't cost anymore (track rental wise, don't know about insurance) to run a PDX/time trial/drivers school with a club racing weekend. So the question is, how do we fit them in. How many run groups do we have that only have 5-10 cars? Cant we combine those groups? How about run it in conjunction with a restricted regional, so you limit the classes that don't normally participate. Shorten 7 run groups by 2 minutes and you've gained almost 15 minutes of available track time. Not to mention, almost every weekend I work seems to either have lots of buffer or other wasted time that, if corrected, could increase available track time. I'm willing to bet You could add six twenty minute sessions to most regional weekends (and at the nationals at Nelson, you could probably add twelve!).


I think the alternate license program is the answer. I haven't heard much feedback on how that is going. I know of 1 driver in GLD who went thru that but he ran only two weekends before blowing the car up.

The downside of the alternate license program is that it will not just kill regular schools, it will drive a stake thru their heart, burn them and salt the ground around them. If you are already struggling to make a school financially workable, if you take 10 or 15 drivers a year out of the potential pool by letting them do the alternate license program, you just make the financials even worse for a traditional school. It didn't happen this year because the volume in the ADP was low, but if the volume ramps up at all, traditional schools are dead in the water. And if the volume in ADP doesn't ramp up, then it is not a solution, it's just one more problem.
Agreed. This is an intriguing option for me and I've discussed with someone familiar with the program in my region. However, the on track time with other cars available in a school setting is very valuable in my mind. Getting comfortable with other cars around me (and ensuring I don't screw up and it one of them!) is paramount in my mind. The traditional school provides lots of time for that.

Thanks,
Brian

[jhooten]

Tech curmudgeons adequate as written.


So far I only earned the label Grumpy old Fart, I have not made it to that level yet.

[Cobrar05]

protech....two points

1. i would not favor a qualifying race. if i am using up my limited supply of hot laps(tires, fuel, brake pads), i am either getting a qtime or racing for points. i run 4 laps in qualifying. i am not interested in a qualifying race.

also, some of use need a practice session. scuff a set of tires. bed in some brakes. learn a brand new track. i am going to daytona for the scca regional sept 29-30. session 1 is qualifying. ive never been on the track at daytona.

2. scheduling. in case you dont know how nasa schedules, they run first car on to last car off rather than green flag to checker. during many races in nasa they do hot pulls. sending the tow truck out on the track with the race cars. its dangerous. after most races nasa sends out the tow vehicles to clear the course. without any time built into their schedule, nasa starts to shave time from sessions including races.

scca uses that buffer time to keep their schedule on time and everyone getting their full sessions.

[Chip42]

re: tech
1) the type of person who is inclined to VOLUNTEER as a scrutineer and do it well from a knowledge/understanding standpoint tends to not be a warm fuzzy type, but an older, educated, detail oriented person. racers have a tendancy to be Type A assholes, too. just from these 2 facts you already have a problem.
2) techs are ASKED to find problems. 2 items are to be checked in impound on every car there, plus weight, per GCR. drivers who are hot and just out of the car tend to NOT be interested in being told they are non compliant (see 1). and there's a schedule to stick to. the constant confrontation ends up embittering the tech guys, too. after some of the BS I've seen drivers start with techs, we're lucky they show up at all. not to say I haven't seen techs be flat wrong, arrogant, or impollite, but that side of the story has been well aired.
2b) being in CFR, I hear about how "there is no tech" in FL CONSTANTLY from those out of the state. you can't have it both ways - either tech is intrusive to a degree, or they are not. one results in possible aggrevateion BY a tech, the other in aggrevation with tech in general.
3) it would be awesome if everyone was friendly at tech. I really wish they all were. but it would be great if the drivers would work WITH tech, too, and even better if everyone who showed up knew what the rules were for their car and class. it only takes 3-4 shitheads to ruin someone's mood and then it snowballs and everyone has to deal with the ripples. some peoples personallities handle that better than others.

racers are customers, but the "employees" of the business they are patronizing are volunteers, and all of us are in the same club. racers should be required to volunteer as part of lisence maintenance. the understanding of those jobs combined with everyone getting to know each other a little bit better can only be a good thing.

[Chip42]

re: schools
Alternate format schools are good. I think, in general, some amount of controlled environment track time BEFORE school A'la PDX or NASA's HPDE program is a GREAT idea. if the idea is to get butts in seats and on the entry roles ASAP, though, then you have a problem if you ask for a lot of experience. SCCA should have more "track days" in the PDX equation. other clubs do it, we should do it better.

double schools ROCK. tons of track time. the only thing I would change is to add sessions for the instructors, maybe even a "real" race for the students to watch. do open wheels sat and tin tops on sunday, splitting them into slow and fast groups. 1 hour out of each day, charge a small price, and I promise the instructor count will go up, budget problems will relax, and the programs can stay alive as there is real value in them.

PDX sessions mixed in with the school will add 4 things - more money, more experienced club drivers moving toward a racing license, exposure to those drivers of the racing school program, and ongoing opportunities for at-speed station wagon or 2-seat racecar instruction for the race school students. it might mean a bit less actual seat time for them, but I think the overall benefit of the weekend will go up.

[ajmr2]

3) it would be awesome if everyone was friendly at tech. I really wish they all were. but it would be great if the drivers would work WITH tech, too, and even better if everyone who showed up knew what the rules were for their car and class. it only takes 3-4 shitheads to ruin someone's mood and then it snowballs and everyone has to deal with the ripples. some peoples personallities handle that better than others.

racers are customers, but the "employees" of the business they are patronizing are volunteers, and all of us are in the same club. racers should be required to volunteer as part of lisence maintenance. the understanding of those jobs combined with everyone getting to know each other a little bit better can only be a good thing.

Well put, Chip. I have always felt that if everyone volunteered for a few hours a year, there would be a lot more communication and understanding than the finger pointing and complaining that sometimes exists. I would even support a requirement to do so, as was the case when I first got my competition license. I've volunteered a good bit over the years and have made some great friends in the process, and I even earn a nice discount on my Nat'l and Regional dues. Anyone who finds fault with something and wants to help find a solution, at your next event, pick a specialty and go do it!
I can't and won't complain about the techs in the WDCR, but their numbers are dwindling for many reasons, mostly their taking the endless BS. I have personally developed an excellent relationship over the years with a couple guys who come to my house to tech my car! That's way above and beyond.
:024:

[seckerich]

Chip that is one of the best ideas I have seen in some time to add PDX or a race to the school. Not sure of the schedule for the super school at Roebling, but I would bet it could be fit in.

2 schools per region is a dream. I hope you meant division? $20,000 to $40,000 over how many students? Loss leader, who's money do you plan to lose? There has been talk of a division school later in the year and Florida had been good to put them in their regional weekends. Need 60 plus to really make it viable. Many race weekends take the sprint races and the enduro to cover the bills so it is hard to fit more groups in unless they have the same numbers as the enduro.

I will not even touch the tech debate, as that is one of my pet peeves in our region. I expect all my officials to treat our drivers like valued customers and expect the same from the drivers. It has to start somewhere. I spent most of the day Friday at CMS going through the paddock during our test day doing annuals. Rained Friday night so we went to the drivers garage to keep them out of the rain. Not hard to have mutual respect.

I have watched a tech official scream at a driver before and wonder why they would ever come back. I remember showing up at my drivers school late 80's and they gave me a list of 20+ things to fix by morning. I still have that list to remind me we are there to help drivers get on track safely, not make their day bad.

[forestdweller37]

So part of the appeal of of the "crapcan" racing organizations is that a group of people can go in on a single car and spread the work and costs around. Perhaps an SCCA region could replicate the effect w/o upsetting our current weekend race structure.

Currently when I register for a weekend, it's something like $250 for Saturday, $350 for both days, and an additional $125 each day for a second "double dip" class. Now if a "team" of 4 could register their car and it's drivers collectively for $600, the club would bring in the same income. Meanwhile, the team members each get by with a $150 entry fee, 25% of the travel expenses, 25% of the build price, etc. And for that, they each get a qualifying session and a race. And they'll most likely be comparing data amongst themselves from the same car/weekend/track to become better drivers. Their total costs should start to become more competitive with the LeChump series if they're looking at class combinations like IT* and ST*.

Now here's the catch: for it to work, the fact that SCCA Club Racing now has a team racing option available would need to be promoted nationwide. There needs to be enough publicized events for people to feel comfortable spending the money to form an SCCA Club Race team. It's all in the promotion and getting the participants to become evangelists.

[ner88]

So, based on what you are saying, one driver pays $350 & $125= $475 X4 drivers =$1900.
The new way the region collects $600......
Who's gonna pay for the track rental:shrug:

[seckerich]

We already do that in CCR. We have a deal for 2 sprints and 2 enduros for $700 to $800 depending on track. We count the car as entrant and let the drivers share. Most have each run a sprint, and share the enduro. I am sure other regions have a similar setup. Regions pay insurance by car, not driver. There are deals out there, you just need to do some homework.

[RSTPerformance]

Here is a CRAZY idea... Eliminate schools. Yes I said eliminate them and make it easier for people to start racing with us.

Much like when i joined the Stewards program we (SCCA) overkilled training and make it nearly impossible to participate. Realistically an SCCA school does not teach anyone how to race, it is a test to see if you drive safe. You can tell this in one session.

Most people will drive safe (look at chump car and or lemons). We should not fool ourselves into thinking we are teaching people to race. Save that for the real race schools located throughout the country. Encourage people to attend those schools or attend PDX events to get experience prior to taking a classroom test and participating in a driving/novice race session.

Obviously this would also encourage growth in the separation/advancement between Regional and National racing.

One other important thing I agree with... Blanket rules will not work, let the regions have local control on how races weekends are set up to meet the needs of the local markets.

Raymond

[StephenB]

Don't we already accept credited schools like Skip Barbera and such?

No School is foolish IMHO. sorry dude.

I would be fine with a "school Group" for your first 4 weekends then get signed off to race with everyone else in regionals. After your 4 regionals then you can get a national license like the current system.

We could have 1 "school group" scheduled in with our current racing program. Maybe 1 practice at the end of Saturday and then 1 race on Sunday afternoon that includes a red flag at some point with a restart then a finish. With that format maybe people can share/rent cars and make a bit of money so they themselves can race.

Keep the limited schools we already have mixed with a race weekend like NER did this year for those that want to get signed off and race right away.

[RSTPerformance]

Good thought Stephen...

I am not going stand up and fight to eliminate schools but we do need to think outside the box. First we need to look at our schools and see what we are really trying to accomplish. The format/idea hasn't changed in 20years and it is a major difference as compared to other organizations that have safer racing and seem to be growing much much faster.

As I said, our schools are more like a long test to prove you are someone we would want to race next to. A majority of students if not 99% probably pass once they meet the min requirements. Currently Operating Stewards and the flaggers watch all novices in the first few races to be sure they are safe and keeping up with the field.

It is not a welcoming, easy, efficient, or necessary process. We need to make it easier and cheaper for people to race with us and "catch the bug."

Raymond

[forestdweller37]

So, based on what you are saying, one driver pays $350 & $125= $475 X4 drivers =$1900.
The new way the region collects $600......
Who's gonna pay for the track rental:shrug:

Right now, a single driver who double dips both days pays $350 + $125 + $125 = $600. Those other four guys aren't showing up at all because racing is simply too expensive for them.

The new way would have me still paying $600 for my four races (plus my $180 in tow gas, plus hotel, etc.) Those four team members now show up because they can each afford 25% of a race weekends cost. The region's income goes from just $600 to $600 (from me) + $600 (from the team of new guys) = $1200.



We already do that in CCR. We have a deal for 2 sprints and 2 enduros for $700 to $800 depending on track. We count the car as entrant and let the drivers share. Most have each run a sprint, and share the enduro. I am sure other regions have a similar setup. Regions pay insurance by car, not driver. There are deals out there, you just need to do some homework.

Great! Except for the homework part. That effort should not be necessary. It should be right up front, readily understandable, and actively marketed to the casual wanna-be road racers. This is part of the marketing genius behind LeChump.

"Hey everyone! Want to race for cheap and not have to deal with silly costumes*, totally unequal performance cars, arbitrary penalties, crazy advanced entry deadlines, and cars that are such POS's that you don't even know if you'll get to drive? Grab some friends and try the new SCCA Team Challenge! We won't duck tape you to a telephone pole!"

*Full disclosure on the silly costumes thing: I did see a worker wearing a chicken hat at Road America last weekend, but I'm pretty sure he would have worn it regardless of what he was doing...

[team-gpracing]

You can call that short sighted all you want but the money has to come from somewhere and there just isn't $20-30k sitting around waiting to be invested in 10-20 drivers.

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't 10-20 new drivers cover that 20-30k in a year? Forget the years after that.

[lawtonglenn]

.... hmmm the Team idea sound interesting... it depends on how many
people currently racing as singles would migrate to teams... I know
that I wouldn't, and I'd guess that most people currently racing wouldn't....

let's take the Cheap Date as an example

currently the fee is $325 for a qual and 3races, or $485 for 2qual + 6races

if the team price was $600 for 2qual and 6 races (the car has to be double dippable)
then if two people split it they could each get 1qual + 3races


if no current drivers migrate to teams, then any teams would be additional revenue

however, if any singles migrate, it would be a loss of $325x2-$600 = $50 each migration


if the team price was $600 for 2qual and 6 races (the car has to be double dippable)
then if four people split it then two could each get 1qual + 1race
and the other two could get 2 races each (and start from the back)


if no current drivers migrate to teams, then any teams would be additional revenue

any migrators would be reducing their participation, but let's say
some would rather pay less and race less... if two people migrated
to join a team of four , it would be the same loss $325x2-$600 = $50

if four migrated to join a team of four it would be $325x4-$600= $650 loss
... however... I'd be willing to bet that this would be a rare occurance
(since the 4 migrators already have at least two and probably four cars between them)


I would say it was a strong bet that the number of new teams (not migrators)
would far outweigh the number of 4 into 1 migrations, and that we can
effectively ignore the 2 into 1 migrations ($50) ...

so I think it would be a net POSITIVE, and that we should do it !!!!!

CONS: works well for triples, a little less well for doubles, but not at all for single race weekends

PROS: any new people coming in as 1/4 of a team are opportunities to grow into individual drivers

.

[wally2]

On the other hand I think you underestimate how much money can be lost on a school. Divisions can't afford to lose money on one school, let alone two. You can call that short sighted all you want but the money has to come from somewhere and there just isn't $20-30k sitting around waiting to be invested in 10-20 drivers.


How about imposing a small fee on each race entry throughout the year to subsidize a driver school the next year? Ten races in GLDiv, 150 entries per race, $20 per entry equals your $30k to hold driver school.

[jhooten]

Because, in this economy, I am doing everything I can to if not reduce entry fees to at least keep them from going up trying to keep the entries to our events from dropping below the break even point. Five years ago we would get 200, two years ago 160, this and last year if we got 120 we were dancing in the paddock.

[Matt93SE]

How about imposing a small fee on each race entry throughout the year to subsidize a driver school the next year? Ten races in GLDiv, 150 entries per race, $20 per entry equals your $30k to hold driver school.

Would you pay $475 for a double weekend?
Costs are already high enough as-is with us subsidizing the track and their insurance company along with the SCCA and THEIR insurance company.

In our region, Hooten is right- we have a hard enough time getting entries currently. raising prices even more is only going to drive additional racers away.

[jumbojimbo]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't 10-20 new drivers cover that 20-30k in a year? Forget the years after that.

Yep, you are right, even if you are conservative and factor in that some drivers at the school will be from another division and not every driver who passes school runs a full season.

Even if you only get 10 new drivers at 5 events at $350, that's $18k.

[tom91ita]

I think this is where SCCA can learn from NASA. Integrate PDX or HPDE into the weekends so there is a means to licensing as a part of a "normal" race weekend.

Especially in areas where there a high cost associated with the tracks. In the great lakes we can have schools at lower cost sites like gingerman. There should be more flexibility.

[downingracing]

Yep, you are right, even if you are conservative and factor in that some drivers at the school will be from another division and not every driver who passes school runs a full season.

Even if you only get 10 new drivers at 5 events at $350, that's $18k.

Sort of. The $20k would be real cash out as a loss. That $18k back in is 'gross' money. Once you subtract out the costs associated with each weekend, the 'net' is WAY less for those 10 new drivers. I know how much the potential profit from a race weekend is... We want to be in the + at the end of a weekend, but it doesn't always work out that way.

You would need several regions to go together to share the 'loss' for the school. Those 5 events above will probably be between 4-5 regions. Many regions would not be able to take a hit to the books to support the loss from the school. And there are 'racing regions' as well as 'non-racing regions'... I'm a big fan of schools. I also know how much of a loss they are (or can be). I know we (OVR) can't do one at Mid-O due to the cost of a weekend. I wish I had the answer.

[Knestis]

... I would be fine with a "school Group" for your first 4 weekends then get signed off to race with everyone else in regionals. After your 4 regionals then you can get a national license like the current system.

We could have 1 "school group" scheduled in with our current racing program. Maybe 1 practice at the end of Saturday and then 1 race on Sunday afternoon that includes a red flag at some point with a restart then a finish. With that format maybe people can share/rent cars and make a bit of money so they themselves can race. ...

This is precisely what ICSCC ("Conference") used to do - and still does for all I know - out in the NW. They ran "novice open wheel" and "novice closed wheel" groups every weekend, for which drivers could qualify from a school that was very much like a HPDE thing - no race car required. Senior drivers would watch on the corners and file reports on on-track behavior and competency.

K

[forestdweller37]

I think this is where SCCA can learn from NASA. Integrate PDX or HPDE into the weekends so there is a means to licensing as a part of a "normal" race weekend.

Especially in areas where there a high cost associated with the tracks. In the great lakes we can have schools at lower cost sites like gingerman. There should be more flexibility.

The beauty of this approach is that now anyone can come to a race weekend and get out on the track. More people can get on track -> more people show up -> more take the club racing plunge.

[bvondran]

Sort of. The $20k would be real cash out as a loss. That $18k back in is 'gross' money. Once you subtract out the costs associated with each weekend, the 'net' is WAY less for those 10 new drivers. I know how much the potential profit from a race weekend is... We want to be in the + at the end of a weekend, but it doesn't always work out that way.

You would need several regions to go together to share the 'loss' for the school. Those 5 events above will probably be between 4-5 regions. Many regions would not be able to take a hit to the books to support the loss from the school. And there are 'racing regions' as well as 'non-racing regions'... I'm a big fan of schools. I also know how much of a loss they are (or can be). I know we (OVR) can't do one at Mid-O due to the cost of a weekend. I wish I had the answer.

I would think your costs for each weekend would be 99% fixed (I.e., track rental doesn't change regardless of number of entries, not sure about insurance). If that's true, the extra entry fees are gravy.

Brian

[Flyinglizard]

Casual observations post race weekend; WE had a great time running the old Rocc in HP with close racing, 2xP2 both last lap passes. (Sebring long)

CFR had a mid/advanced session for PDX , mixed into the schedule for Sun, no instructors.
I had my #2 driver running the Chumpcar, 160hp, 2000#, pretty fast.. The competence level of drivers for this group was determined by verbal history. (You told the chief guy if you are any good). I would have to say that 1/2 of the drivers would not have been signed off anywhere else.
This resulted in at least 2 hard impacts, many very slow or no point bys. etc.

My Son and I instruct for many of the private clubs that run @ Sebring. Neither of us are "Qualified" to instruct for the SCCA racing schools.
We are qualified to instruct for the TT/ PDX schools. Why is it any different? Same track same instruction.

I also realized that when I have to instruct one of my new Chump drivers, ( all 12 Protech drivers have to have some laps @ Sebring pre race) I have to use one of the private clubs to do incar coaching. SCCA is the only group that has a race school without in car coaching.
A major improvement ,IMHo would add at least one session of ridealong, and 2-3sessions of in car coaching. Maybe the entire first day?
The result would be a much higher quality of racer.

All of the track day clubs swap instruction for track time, SCCA has not done that, results are no instructors.

The PDX, with good incar instruction, is still a very large market.SCCA has been very slow to enter and may never catch up without some advertising. When we talk to a car guy at the solo or gas station, we need a valid point of entry for this driver and his car.
"Can I drive my car @ Sebring?" yes you may..

NASA has a ladder system with TT/PDX for beginners . In reality it is way harder to get a race license through NASA than SCCA, In fact My son did the Roebling double school, to race the next NASA race. NASA wanted a few days of in car assessment, etc.

RE Chumpcar racing; The requirement of 4 drivers increases the odds of have a team coach.( our current team has at least 8 SCCA racers)
Miss a flag and you come in and sit, miss 2 flags and you may have to exit car.
Chumpcar is far from perfect with no rules, no driver requirements. The results are not any different than SCCA with all of it's requirements. The driving has the same variation, with more point bys, same apexing without looking. All of the usual suspects and racing crap. SCCA has better car to car racing as a rule.

As it is now, the Chumpcar racers want to race the long races, on epic tracks.( 14hrs @ Daytona, 14hrs @ Sebring,24hr @ VIR, 25.5hrs @ Nelson,ugh) I see no interest in running any 30 min SCCA race, in those drivers.

I rent some scca, school cars, The driver will ask , " what is the next school?, next race, etc. " My next race is the Chumpcar bla bla. " Can I race??" Yes you may. The next SCCA school may be 4-6 months away. He may never go back to SCCA. or may even use SCCA as a stepping stone to Chump .
There is a market that Chumpcar has filled, easy access, long races.

I have no real points here just, observations.

RE; novice race groups working on one school, ***great idea*** , mix in some instructor/ racers/monitors.
MM

[Matt93SE]

Another dumb Q.. Instead of losing money on a SCCA school, what about offering an Advanced Racing school in addition?
i.e. instead of just the 10-20 new guys taking one class, what about same 10-20 new guys and another 10-20 guys that have been racing for a year or two but want some advanced instruction like you'd get at a Skip Barber course or something similar.
IIRC, my 2-day SCCA school cost around $650 or so. 8hrs on track in 2 days, and about 4 hrs classroom. That got me my license.
As a "moderately experienced" racer, I'd be willing to pay $1200 or so for the same amount of seat time with some real instruction vs. just making laps with n00bs.

Of course you'd have to pay more for "better" instructors, but that would be offset by the additional entries to the school and the guys willing to pay more for better attention.

as it is, MSR-Houston offers such courses several times a year and is just as big a source of new SCCA racers as our annual SCCA-hosted school at another track in the area.

Just something to think about.

[forestdweller37]

Another dumb Q.. Instead of losing money on a SCCA school, what about offering an Advanced Racing school in addition?


Well you certainly have MY attention now!

In regions with large active (and Nationally successful) Solo programs, there's a lot of emphasis on training drivers. It's not just novice training either, but intermediate and advanced training. The Porsche Club of America's format might be worth taking a look at in this regard.

[bhudson]

These are all great ideas - we (SCCA) certainly need to look at alternatives to "the way we've always done it."

Next step - forward your ideas to your Area Director on the SCCA Board of Directors.

[Flyinglizard]

Maybe TT should have some club /race relationship. Signed off TT guy wil need only one school or could go right into the Novice race group at the next race?

[tom91ita]

Maybe TT should have some club /race relationship. Signed off TT guy wil need only one school or could go right into the Novice race group at the next race?

does TT need to know flags? yes.

does TT need to have car control? yes.

does TT need to have situational awareness? yes.

i think your suggestion has real merit. about the only thing different about the "school" we had and this is the "practice" starts with a lap or two of "racing"

[Matt Rowe]

It has so much merit that we already worked that out this year with the CRB. The only minor issue that remains is it isn't formally directed as part of the GCR. By that I mean it is a suggestion that TT experience be used to waive one school requirement but not automatic. It still requires the Steward at the 1st school to place enough value on TT experience in order to approve the novice to go run their first regionals.

It is a move in the right direction and I do believe that most of the CRB and CR in general "get" what we are trying to do with Time Trials in SCCA.