Treadzone ProIT/SM split starts...

[RSTPerformance]

I still don't understand why this group doesn't have a split start...

From a stewards point I would like it, it doesn't make sense not to split them.

From a spectator standpoint it suck watching these races if you are watching anything but ITR/overall. SM cars always forget to fix the classes on the side of the car so you have no idea who is racing what. However I have to admit from a spectator side it is great watching everyone pile into the first turn on the start... You always get to see some sort of contact!

From a drivers standpoint in IT (It is "ProIT") it sucks because if you are not in ITR infront of the SM field then you could be less than a second from others in your class and have 10 miatas between you. I realize that I have not raced in ProIT for years and as of now because of this issue I don't really have an interest in it.

Unlike others I love the miatas and I think they put on the best show for racing in the US. However in this format it really isn't that great. I would much rather watch the regional races to see a good race

I feel like some of us have asked this for years but we just cant seem to get a strieght answer or consistancy so I go back to my question of the day... Why not split start???

Respectfully (I hope it comes out that way);

Raymond Blethen

[Keith O]

I would think that the ITR guys prefer to not have the split start so that they don't have to lap the full SM field at once that are starting half a lap further back than in a group start. Pluses and minuses either way, but I can say I like the group start as an SM driver.

[RSTPerformance]

Problem is the group has more than ITR and SM... It also has IT'S, ITA, ITB and could sometimes have ITC

[Keith O]

The fields actually spread out quite nicely when everyone starts together so I do t really think that there is a problem. I would go as far as to say that it helps to have the SMs spread throughout the field so there are fewer packs of them. Everyone plays nice and we have fewer groups of bump drafting miatas since there are other classes breaking it up.

I know everyone hates racing the miatas, but I dot see how plopping a full on SM race half a lap in front of the fast cars will make it less of a headache for the R cars. You'll have to lap slow cars more often as well since thy start so far behind on the opening lap.

[preparedcivic]

As an ITB driver, I'm not a split start fan. What it usually means is the fast pack of SM's catch up to the ITB race right at the laps into things point where positions should be settling out, and instead there are multiple freight trains that expect to get let by. Since these are the top of the class, one is sort of obligated to let them go, except it usually messes up your own race.

I think split starts typically happen based on stewards/officials wanting to lessen the T1 traffic jam at the green. That's been my experience; it is only instituted if entry is up near the track limit.

[Knestis]

Split start is almost never a good idea. If the grid is set by time, the fast cars at the front go away from the slower cars behind.

It's multi-class racing, people. We will NEVER get rid of the "different cars make time in different places" reality, and there's zero need to complicate things with split starts.

K

[RSTPerformance]

Interesting thoughts... Guess I am of a different school. Like I said, I think the Miatas are a great race group. I guess The reality is qualifying is that much more important if you are racing cars in your own class... The problem is miatas are so closely bunched together that they can spread the IT cars out a lot if you are in the middle of the field (mid pack ITS, front of ITA or front of ITB ).

My impressions over the years has been people want to race cars in his/her class, not others, especially if it is the front runners of another class. However what it seems is this series is more about racing with whoever you qualify near not necessarily the cars in your class???

Also I must say my impression of multiclass racing at a "pro" level is more distinguished difference in class speeds (Such as the IT classes). SM fits/blends in with all the classes and runs the same speed, this my feeling you guys feel we should be running for overall position not class position?

Raymond

[Knestis]

>> this my feeling you guys feel we should be running for overall position not class position?

That's not the case at all. The reality is that a split start just trades one set of unpredictable challenges for a different, and arguably more likely, challenges.

There's nothing about SMs - contrary to what some people think - that make them any different as a group from, say, the ITS cars that I'm almost always in the middle of. It's entirely possible that there will be a half dozen of them between me and the first-place ITB car (this WAS the case at the NJMP Pro IT I did) but it could equally be ITS cars.

In an effort to make things less complicated, we guarantee that some faster cars are going to have to pass slower cars that they wouldn't have to deal with, or have to pass them earlier in the race when the pack is less strung out.

We are always racing for class positions but there's nothing we can do to assure that other classes won't be in our race, and the artifice of split starts introduces variables and potential for conflict that wouldn't otherwise exist.

K

EDIT - I should share my bias that I think traffic and dealing with out-of-class cars is part of the skill set that's being tested any time I "race" other ITB cars.

[RSTPerformance]

Kirk- Your thoughts are well put! You are spot on with your POV. I personally think it would make better racing the other way but I guess we all have our preferences! Thanks for Your thoughts, I really appreciate understanding another POV.

Raymond

[RacerBill]

Just to add another point of view, split starts can be a real nighmare when there is a problem with the first group. The rules of start dictate that if the first group gets a green, then the second group gets a green, no matter what shape the field is in. Then it's up to a start judge, if one is designated, to apply penalties to offending drivers. If there is an issue with the first group in the first turn, hopefully there is enough time to bring out a yellow or waving yellow to warn the drivers, who may or not be watching the starter (how many drivers have radios and crews to tell them when the starter throws the green?). There have been very painful consequences as the result of the second group charging into turn one with 50 - 70% track blockage.

Just another point of view.

[Z3_GoCar]

What's really funny is when the Production guys request a split start becuase there's DOT-R tired cars in their run group. They say, "Oh this DOT-R guys going to be a rocket down the straights and hold us slick tired cars up in the corners"

The payback is when the DOT-R tired car out qualifies them all:happy204:

[Drew M]

We did the split start in Round 1 at NJMP. I like the single start. Being a mid-pack ITS driver; on split starts, I have packs of lead Miatas screaming past me by lap 2. It throws me off, and lap cars sometimes throw them off. I know, traffic is part of racing, but it puts a bit of a damper on your race when you spend the first few laps trying to avoid getting hit by dive-bombing Miatas instead of finding your rythm.

I'd rather mix it up with comparable Miatas than have to worry about getting in the way of leaders so early on in the race. At least when there is a single start, you can have an idea of when the few ITR car should be coming around to lap you.

[RSTPerformance]

I had no idea so many people didn't like split starts... Good to know :) for sure, I can keep my mouth shut from now on and just enjoy watching the starts!!! I will still come play with the group when I can afford some of the higher profile events that I do love!!!

Raymond

[gran racing]

Sometimes I like them especially in 'bigger" events such as the ARRC. Now having been on both sides in an ITB and this weekend in an SSM car, it's tough for both classes. The top two ITB cars and the top two SSM cars were mixed in with each other. Speeds were made in different places as well. Tough when multiple cars are battling for the lead in different classes, right in the same place.

However in this case, I think all drivers did their best to work it out as best as possible. Later in the race the 2nd ITB car gave me the point by with the lead SSM car in front of Rick's ITB car. Didn't take it thinking in would mess up his race. (In retrospect I probably should have but didn't think I'd catch the leader.)

[Drew M]

I had no idea so many people didn't like split starts... Good to know :) for sure, I can keep my mouth shut from now on and just enjoy watching the starts!!! I will still come play with the group when I can afford some of the higher profile events that I do love!!!

Raymond

Nothing wrong with bringing up a suggestion aimed at improving the race.

[gran racing]

It is labled "PRO IT" so makes sense in that perspective IMO.

[jjjanos]

>> this my feeling you guys feel we should be running for overall position not class position?

That's not the case at all. The reality is that a split start just trades one set of unpredictable challenges for a different, and arguably more likely, challenges.



We are always racing for class positions but there's nothing we can do to assure that other classes won't be in our race, and the artifice of split starts introduces variables and potential for conflict that wouldn't otherwise exist.

If the tradition was to grid by class via split starts (and that's what the current system represents tradition) and someone suggested moving to en masse gridding via qualifying time, everything you just said would still hold.

What you are saying is that you prefer a set of variables with which you have greater experience over a set of variables with which you have less experience. The potential impacts of either set of variables vary depending on the circumstances -- the classes, the track, the lap times of those in the classes, the number of cars, etc.

A split-start can be the best option at times - for example, if the bulk of the ITS class are running the same lap times as the ITB cars in the same run group. A second example is when the field is 80+ cars (especially if the starter decides to throw a late green).

You are correct that dealing with cars in other classes is part of multi-class racing. What you fail to acknowledge is that multi-class racing is not the preferred option. The preferred option is to have run groups consisting of a single class. We settle for multi-class racing because most classes do not have sufficient cars to justify a single-class run group.

[jjjanos]

There have been very painful consequences as the result of the second group charging into turn one with 50 - 70% track blockage.

Just another point of view.

Questions:
1. So it is better to have another 20 cars part of the pack as the cars in 5th and 6th position block 50-70% of the track?
2. Turn 1 failed to display the appropriate flag?

[gran racing]

What's the rationale for not having a combined start some of the pro events such as the Rolex / Conti series? Wouldn't the faster classes just run away anyways? Or strictly for TV and entertainment purposes?

[jjjanos]

What's the rationale for not having a combined start some of the pro events such as the Rolex / Conti series? Wouldn't the faster classes just run away anyways? Or strictly for TV and entertainment purposes?

Guessing here -

1. Nothing to do with entertainment value as more cars through T1 at once would be more entertaining and the split start gives us half-screens of the fast and slow classes.
2. It spreads out the field so that a bone-head move by a fast/slow car won't take out a slow/fast car.
3. Reduces the accordian effect.

[super61]

Ray,
I couldnt agree with you more. The fast miatas get in the middle of the fast ITS cars race and vica versa. Even if you have 2 ITS cars battling for position and one miata driving around by itself, the miata will not let the ITS cars past and will race them thru every corner, messing up their race. ALL drivers need to recognize who is in their class and who they are racing against. No car is as fast as a miata in the corners, we all recognize that but if you are an SM, what is the prupose of holding up the ITS car not in their class?
The SM guys are real vocal in the drivers meeting and vote down the split start. I would bet most of the IT drivers that arent in first palce would welcome it.

[gran racing]

ALL drivers need to recognize who is in their class and who they are racing against. No car is as fast as a miata in the corners, we all recognize that but if you are an SM, what is the prupose of holding up the ITS car not in their class?

A buffer between the car inclass behind. I know in the SSM races I tried hard to get an SM2 between me and the 2nd place SSM car.

Oh, is that an SM, SSM, SM2, ITA, EP, or what class Miata? lol!

[StephenB]

A couple quick points from my POV which may be different from raymonds and others.

Most mixed class racing at a professional level invloves window banners or headlights of some type that distinguish the class so it is easy for competitors to know whom they are racing. (Unless the cars are drastically different like DP vs GT) If I was in ITS or ITA I would have no clue who I was racing. Thankfully I am not.

In reality we have small groups in IT and a large field of SM cars. when you only have 3 or 4 IT cars in a class it kinda sucks to be stuck in the middle of 10-15 other SM cars. Especially knowing that you "could" stay up with and race with the other cars in your class if you could just get past this chain of SM cars.

I think the split start adds excitement to SM as a spectator because you can watch basically another race on track with the PRO-IT guys. Instead they are just mixed in.

To be honest I am still not sure why we call it PRO-IT... I always thought if you had a PRO-IT and PRO-SM race group combined with a split start it would make good business sense. I think if done correctly it could drive excitement and press about the series.

I am VERY happy for the success they are having with the series. I think they should keep doing what they are because it seems to be working for them and they like it.

With that being said,
I WILL race in ITR in that series because it brings out what I feel are the BEST and BIGGEST ITR fields in the country. I however will never race my ITB car in the series because it draws small entries and is not enjoyable. Here in the the North East ITB is all about the NARRC series as that draws large fields and most of the best of the best in this area!

Stephen