Chumpcars can run NASA !!

[Flyinglizard]

We ran with NASA last week @ Sebring.
" Chumpcars can run without any hassle".
NASA is also going to add a 2 hr sat eve enduro. Chumps and all closed cars invited.
I have sent the rule basics to SCCA locals and have not heard anything. maybe : "if we ignore them they will go away." And we shall.

Of course I included that I would help this along in any way needed.
Any RE can email me direct if interested . Thanks, MM

[gran racing]

Mike, if you don't hear back from them it doesn't necessarily mean they're ignoring you. It's hard to beleive how many people involved will never even see the e-mails sent to them. :(

[Matt93SE]

Good to hear someone is supporting those cheapskate racers.
I wonder if the local astronauts are doing same?

[Flyinglizard]

I havent seen any cheapskate racers. These guys are some of the best funded racers I have ever delt with. Fly in, race ,fly home. I have 3 cars almost full for Sebring( maybe 2 seta open) of 12 spots.
The cars have gotten a little pricey. 7-12k for front runner.

[Simon T.]

Most NASA races are ran like a destruction derby anyway so why not?




:runs:

[Knestis]

I don't think that's a fair characterization, actually. Regions differ in terms of things we should worry about but that's the case for SCCA, NASA, and the rest.

K

EDIT - to the original point, i think it is *very* interesting how quickly - and publicly - we are coming to the realization that these aren't $500 race cars. I come back to the fundamental question of how to cap or bracket their performance, at which point I think Mike's proposition about tires is an increasingly attractive brainstorm.

[gran racing]

The cars have gotten a little pricey. 7-12k for front runner.

Which is pretty damn annoying considering what the purpose of Chumpcar was.

[Knestis]

Which is pretty damn predictable considering what the purpose of Chumpcar was.

Fizzixed.

:026:

K

[Matt93SE]

The cars have gotten a little pricey. 7-12k for front runner.

Sadly, that's still "cheap" racing. How much is a front running ITS car? [assumption alert!!] Isn't that about the prep level of the front-running Chumps [assumption]

Cheap racing is never cheap when you're said and done.

even a completely legit $350 LeMon car cost $5000 to build several years ago. Same car has had probably another $5k in work done to it since...

[forestdweller37]

The top running teams here in the Iowa/Minnesota/Wisconsin area aren't that expensive. They're just stock E30 or E36 BMW's with some maintenance and good drivers.

[spawpoet]

The top running teams here in the Iowa/Minnesota/Wisconsin area aren't that expensive. They're just stock E30 or E36 BMW's with some maintenance and good drivers.


The same drivers/cars wouldn't be running up front in a more competitive region then. IMHO good/great driving, good suspension, stock motor gets you mid-pack in parts of the country where IT is highly competitive. We put a driver who's finished 2nd in prod at the Runoffs more than once in our car, and he was more than 3 sec slower than top ITS times in our region (CFR) at the track we ran. We have spent about what you'd have in a top running Chump car in our car, with essentially a stock motor. To play up front in ITS in Sediv you're gonna have 12-15k in your car unless you're building your engine yourself. I might be low with that number.

[mossaidis]

^ I would guess more like $20K+ for a 9/10ths build

[Flyinglizard]

Simon, what races have you run?? There is more contact in the first 30sec of a SM race than all of our Chump races. NASA has been clean also.

My "A "car will be boosted by the end of the week. T 3 turbo, chinese manifold etc.
We started , ITB times would get you top 5 lap times. Now , we need about 2:40 flat for Sebring,( ITA or hot SM times.) even now with the Sebring being slower by about 1.5 sec. I need a real 160hp , 2000#,

No rules makes it tough. I'll be out by next year.

[Knestis]

So Mike's got me thinking, particularly his idea about tire-limiting performance. I'm picturing where LeChump eventually, logically meets club endurance racing. The performance - and cost - escalation is impressing even this jaded old bahstahd... So let it. But limit performance not only by the type of tire but the size. The more I think about it, the more I like "under-tired" and "way under-tired" as classes. For a start...

Then require open differentials.

Establish a minimum weight of 1 pound per cc of engine displacement.

Add the old-school refueling rules we had under the ESCORT series - rigs galore but you've got to use an unmodified commercial unleaded gas pump hose nozzle.

Get rid of the silly crap - the themes, bogus penalties, and all the rest. Let people start taking some more pride in how their cars look, 'cause frankly the shark fins and goofy stuff *really* puts me off.

Finally, accept the reality that we can't control costs. The tire and diff limits will conspire to

Go racing...?

K

[downingracing]

We ran with NASA last week @ Sebring.
" Chumpcars can run without any hassle".
NASA is also going to add a 2 hr sat eve enduro. Chumps and all closed cars invited.
I have sent the rule basics to SCCA locals and have not heard anything. maybe : "if we ignore them they will go away." And we shall.

Of course I included that I would help this along in any way needed.
Any RE can email me direct if interested . Thanks, MM

Of course they let you run without any hassle! You've got X number of cars and are willing to pay. If you bring enough cars, they will even give you your own run group (at the expense of others who are already there) They are there to make money and will do whatever it takes to make $. They will be happy to let you come in and play while looking the other way on most things! I know - I've got a NASA logbook and no one got within 50ft of my car when it was issued... Just be sure to not hit anything (guard rail, concrete, fence, tow truck) during your race weekend - Your 'cheap' racing will become very expensive very fast.

And Chump cars that meet IT safety requirements can run as-is in ITE. These are the ITE rules for GL-Div:


Great Lake Division ITE RULES:
A. Cars prepared for any past or current recognized showroom stock based
amateur or professional racing series, not eligible for any current SCCA regional class.
B. Drivers must have the rule book and be able to prove compliance to the series rules the
car is prepared to.
C. All cars must run DOT approved tires.
D. Cars must meet minimum safety requirements defined in the GCR and ITCS for
Improved Touring.

Find the rules for your local region (SCCA) ITE class and go have a blast! It really is that easy. You want your own class? There are plenty of classes already and there is already a place for cars from other series to run. Yes - you may get beat by a Viper or some other high HP ITE car. And they will get the $6 trophy. If you bring enough cars - Do your own trophy (Beer to the winner or whatever). If not getting a little trophy is the make/break for coming - I've got nothing.

[Simon T.]

Simon, what races have you run?? There is more contact in the first 30sec of a SM race than all of our Chump races. NASA has been clean also.

I haven't raced NASA, never will. lol I ran HPDE with them back in 04 and have been turned off since, I've worked events though with them which is where I'm basing my opinion from. I've NEVER counted so many car to car impacts than I have working NASA. Metal to metal, wall impacts, oiling down the whole track, you name it. Yes, these things happen in SCCA and anywhere else, but their mindset on safety just seems far less. I would not feel safe taking my car out on track at a NASA event. Dare I even bring up the training some of the workers have.

I was interested in their enduros as they are ran well, but I've decided if I want a long enduro I'll run Chump now as I was impressed with the Road Atlanta round in February and fully expect to be there in December instead of the NASA 8 hour.


So Mike's got me thinking, particularly his idea about tire-limiting performance. I'm picturing where LeChump eventually, logically meets club endurance racing. The performance - and cost - escalation is impressing even this jaded old bahstahd... So let it. But limit performance not only by the type of tire but the size. The more I think about it, the more I like "under-tired" and "way under-tired" as classes. For a start...

Then require open differentials.

Establish a minimum weight of 1 pound per cc of engine displacement.

Add the old-school refueling rules we had under the ESCORT series - rigs galore but you've got to use an unmodified commercial unleaded gas pump hose nozzle.

Get rid of the silly crap - the themes, bogus penalties, and all the rest. Let people start taking some more pride in how their cars look, 'cause frankly the shark fins and goofy stuff *really* puts me off.

Finally, accept the reality that we can't control costs. The tire and diff limits will conspire to

Go racing...?

K

I like the way you think.


hey are there to make money and will do whatever it takes to make $.

This pretty much sums of one of my complaints.

[gran racing]

There is more contact in the first 30sec of a SM race than all of our Chump races.

Guess it depends on each individual race. At Nelson last year, there were a TON of incidents and contact. So much so ChumpCar stopped the racing to hold a meeting about it. (Glad they did and kudos to them for doing so.)


the shark fins and goofy stuff *really* puts me off.

Yeah, me too. Don't think it's that bad in ChumpCar compared to Lemons.

[Simon T.]

Yeah, me too. Don't think it's that bad in ChumpCar compared to Lemons.

I don't think it is either, there were some nice looking cars at RA earlier in the year, that has always been a turnoff for me too.

[Flyinglizard]

If we could run the Chumps in CFR races, I would have run my car. ITE, ITO whatever. Not allowed here. The CFR region really sucks as far as how they treat new people and most of the racers in general.
I have been told that " we dont want those cars running with real race cars". I think that I will plate my Chump and run it in the PDX, next to all of the fancy street cars...
As Prior mentioned, the cages are well above any SCCA regs,the cars run on DOT tires. The rules allow holes in the hoods, cut off roofs etc.
There is a real market for the real 500$ cars at this point, due to lack of rules @ Chumpcar.
NASA, PBOC, BMW club welcome the cars with a smile and a bill$.
My car looks pretty extreme with no roof, big splitter, intercooler thru the hood, etc. There are pics in the photo section here.

I see how basic rules would help. I lke the narrow tires. But the #per CC needs some work. The 1600# Honda cant get to weight while the 5.0 Mustang cant make weight. ( my cut vw 1.8 car weighs about 1780 plus gas /driver)

I hate Nelson and did not go because of the trackSUX value. If you get a roll onto the straight, all the lead car has to do is move over 3ft and force a lift and the pass is over or you bump. I raced there enough to know that 80 cars will have a bump each lap. The 1.5 lane width along with one, maybe two passing zones make for crappy racing IMHO.
I much prefer SEbring Roebling Road , Road Atlanta.

[Knestis]

A 5.0 Mustang absolutely CAN make weight. It just needs 2000 pounds of ballast. :)

The point there is to build the rules so they loosely constrain the extremes of what is PRACTICAL, rather than trying to prevent everything that is POSSIBLE. There's no need to let every damned thing in.

K

[forestdweller37]

The top running teams here in the Iowa/Minnesota/Wisconsin area aren't that expensive. They're just stock E30 or E36 BMW's with some maintenance and good drivers.


The same drivers/cars wouldn't be running up front in a more competitive region then. IMHO good/great driving, good suspension, stock motor gets you mid-pack in parts of the country where IT is highly competitive. We put a driver who's finished 2nd in prod at the Runoffs more than once in our car, and he was more than 3 sec slower than top ITS times in our region (CFR) at the track we ran. We have spent about what you'd have in a top running Chump car in our car, with essentially a stock motor. To play up front in ITS in Sediv you're gonna have 12-15k in your car unless you're building your engine yourself. I might be low with that number.

We may have had a miscommunication. I was referring to the fast Chumpcar teams around here. They proved their pace at the National Chumpionship last year. If they're faster teams in the SE, we haven't seen them up here.

The point is still very valid that the Chumpsters are starting to look decidedly less "chumpy" and the costs/prep level are evolving rapidly. "$500 car" is more of a qualifier for the year/make/model than any reflection of the cars' true value. I think the pace of development is a result of the team-based structure. i.e. 4x the check writing capability, 4x people turning wrenches, 4x data collected and shared between drivers, etc.

[spawpoet]

We may have had a miscommunication. I was referring to the fast Chumpcar teams around here. They proved their pace at the National Chumpionship last year. If they're faster teams in the SE, we haven't seen them up here.

The point is still very valid that the Chumpsters are starting to look decidedly less "chumpy" and the costs/prep level are evolving rapidly. "$500 car" is more of a qualifier for the year/make/model than any reflection of the cars' true value. I think the pace of development is a result of the team-based structure. i.e. 4x the check writing capability, 4x people turning wrenches, 4x data collected and shared between drivers, etc.


Gotcha. I thought you were referring to the top ITS cars, not chumpcars. My bad.

[Flyinglizard]

Ijust put in the locked diff, light flywheel, T 3 turbo, water cooled brakes, 3.94 gear, fuel cooler, splitter,
The car is a 285$ car.. All legal .

[Spinnetti]

Ijust put in the locked diff, light flywheel, T 3 turbo, water cooled brakes, 3.94 gear, fuel cooler, splitter,
The car is a 285$ car.. All legal .

rrriiiiiiiight.... you know in chump, all that stuff is at market value, not at "I found it under my bench" value right? So I should be able to find all that stuff for $215 total?

[Knestis]

>> ... I think the pace of development is a result of the team-based structure. i.e. 4x the check writing capability, 4x people turning wrenches, 4x data collected and shared between drivers, etc.

That's an interesting thought...

K

[Ron Earp]

rrriiiiiiiight.... you know in chump, all that stuff is at market value, not at "I found it under my bench" value right? So I should be able to find all that stuff for $215 total?

Good luck. Last time I tried to find a worn out T3 for a project I never came up with anything under $70. That's 1/4 the $215 and some of that other stuff is expensive.

But of course, it isn't really street prices that count, it is what your "bill of sale" says you bought it for. Like when I sold a MM panhard rod to a kid for $300 but he wanted me to sign the Craigslist advertisement he made using my text and pictures but with a $60 price.

The whole $500 chump car premise is an effort to contain costs, but I don't really think it is all that effective. People use creative solutions to skirt the price point because after all, they are racers and push the rules boundary.

[Flyinglizard]

Ebay, "T 3 for parts, Bought for 17.13$
SVO intercoooler , bought for 21$.13
Chinese exhaust manifold, T 3, BF, 89$( had to redrilll and weld (
Oil line kit, both sides, BF 49$
2in EMT tubeing, 20$
2in EMT ,90 * bend, 17
Blow off valve, 20$
car is 200$. I have it around 400$.total
I used to rebuild the garrett T 3 / T 4, in my prior life. I have bits left over...
I have guys looking to get my AIV down under 100$ just because I hate the AIV thing.
I can play the no rules thing.
I want the car to roast both front tires coming out of the hairpin @ Sebring. I expect about 160- 170 real HP and maybe 200# TQ.@ 11psi.( based on Know good values)
Target lap times are 2:38. (With Michael S. driving.)
The current 120hp powerplant did about 2:48 for him and aboutr 2:52 for the rest of the team. MM
PS the biggest problem will be keeping the turbo cool on refueling stops. I hate to hot soak it 8 times a race. i am working on a mini accusump style of oiler to keep some flow for the 2 min of non running time.

[seckerich]

Expecting SCCA to change their rules to better cater to your business model----priceless.

[Flyinglizard]

Are you saying that Chumpcrap has no place in SCCA?

I am just hoping that SCCA can loosen up their butts enough to share in this huge market that has been presented.
The time is right for an Endurance series to accept these drivers and their cars. With some basic rules!!
Please tell me what you really think.

[downingracing]

Are you saying that Chumpcrap has no place in SCCA?

I am just hoping that SCCA can loosen up their butts enough to share in this huge market that has been presented.
The time is right for an Endurance series to accept these drivers and their cars. With some basic rules!!
Please tell me what you really think.

PLEASE STOP talking global and concentrate LOCAL! MANY SCCA regions DO HAVE a place for these cars to race - I posted the ITE rules earlier for my Division. If safety is really IT or better - Bring the rule book and come play! You do need to have a race license (not the one purhcased for $25 - But one that is accepted by the region/division putting on the event). Other than that - this is a non-issue. If your local region has an issue - GET INVOLVED and make changes. Having ITE added at the divisional level should be an easy-ish task and you are good to go.

** Now if you want an endurance race - we don't do those in my division (or not often at all). We fill up all the time we have in the weekend. Yes we have 'extra' time in the schedule for worker breaks and 'fluff' built-in to allow for issue 'cleanup'. All done to try and ensure everyone gets to have the race they came for. Other divisions are different - there may be an enduro series out there that fits what you're looking for.

[betamotorsports]

Here in calClub we've run a race withing a race. For a while the NCCC Corvette guys ran their race series within the ITE class/run group. They kept track of their own points and took care of their own tech (outside of the normal SCCA post race tech). I'm sure something similar can be setup for ChumpCar (assuming basic SCCA safety is met) in most regions.

[Ron Earp]

PLEASE STOP talking global and concentrate LOCAL! MANY SCCA regions DO HAVE a place for these cars to race - I posted the ITE rules earlier for my Division. If safety is really IT or better - Bring the rule book and come play!

True. NCR-SCCA hosts the 13 Hour Charge of the Headlight Brigade that has an ITE class. ITE in the NCR is basically any car that meets IT safety specs, not IT prep rules, but safety only. Therefore, you could run in what is arguably the East Coast's most prestigious amateur endurance event. I'm sure that if you get a few Chumpcars to show up and race that the SCCA will take notice.

[jumbojimbo]

...snip...The whole $500 chump car premise is an effort to contain costs, but I don't really think it is all that effective. People use creative solutions to skirt the price point because after all, they are racers and push the rules boundary.

The $500 chump car limit is a successful (so far) method of maintaining the perception of low cost. This is something that Lemons and CC have done successfully that SCCA fails at.

I know, I know, you don't HAVE to spend $10k on your chumpcar. But you don't have to spend big money to race an SCCA car either. As has been pointed out, IT and CC cars are not that different. All that crap about being able to cut the roof off and remover washer bottles and bolt on bigger brakes, etc is window dressing.

The big differences between SCCA IT and CC are the team-based enduro vs single driver sprint races and the perception of lower cost. Emphesis on perception. Actaully cost per mile between IT and CC is not that different. And I'm pretty sure "well funded" drivers who fly in to drive a race shop prepped CC are paying a whole lot more per hour of track time than I am to race my ITC Civic.

The one area that SCCA has the advantage is in actual wheel to wheel, hammer and tong, mano a mano, close quarters, competitive racing. And we do a poor job of promoting that part of our product.

[Spinnetti]

The $500 chump car limit is a successful (so far) method of maintaining the perception of low cost. This is something that Lemons and CC have done successfully that SCCA fails at.

I know, I know, you don't HAVE to spend $10k on your chumpcar. But you don't have to spend big money to race an SCCA car either. As has been pointed out, IT and CC cars are not that different. All that crap about being able to cut the roof off and remover washer bottles and bolt on bigger brakes, etc is window dressing.

The big differences between SCCA IT and CC are the team-based enduro vs single driver sprint races and the perception of lower cost. Emphesis on perception. Actaully cost per mile between IT and CC is not that different. And I'm pretty sure "well funded" drivers who fly in to drive a race shop prepped CC are paying a whole lot more per hour of track time than I am to race my ITC Civic.

The one area that SCCA has the advantage is in actual wheel to wheel, hammer and tong, mano a mano, close quarters, competitive racing. And we do a poor job of promoting that part of our product.

Jim, you've been very nice, and helpful (thank you), but at least from my experience have a few misperceptions. The simple fact for me is: SCCA has too many one-time and on-going barriers to entry that are not risk justified. It is also technically limiting, and there is too much smash and bash going on. Lemons IS cheaper to run up front and LESS risky than SCCA. It is a Non-Contact sport, which I LIKE. I also don't have to jump through licensing hoops, physicals etc, etc.... I can build what I want and drive hassle free. As an owner of competetive cars in both series, the "window dressing" is what I care about. My car is very conventional in build (if a huge 4 door automatic v8 sedan can be considered conventional), but I did it how "I" wanted to, not some dumb rule. My car is fast and I'm considering selling my IT car because of the window dressing that I care about. Lemons is every bit as competetitive as the SCCA and much less restrictive on barriers to entry - and plenty of pros show up to these. Come run one and find out. Fields of 3 cars are nothing like fields of 100 over 17-24 hours... totally different ball game and much more exciting test of man and machine. The "team wallet" concept is overblown. For the fast guys, its not even a factor anyway. I run up front for an investment of my work/talent and about $5400, and I'm as fast as anybody I've run with. I spend around $3,000 per event to run it, and to run up front with me it costs you $900 for about 4hrs of track time - How does that compare? If you get a total of 40 min of a SCCA race, it should cost in total (tow,fuel,amortized car,physical, license, dues etc) about $150 right? For those who aren't experienced at both, its just speculation. Right now, your "perception" is that they are junk and its not real competition - I can tell you that I think many of the cars in IT were junk when I ran regularly and its a smash fest compared to Lemons. I don't want to risk my pristine IT car anymore in the bash fest - I'm safer with my "junker" in lemons, which has only had one contact from an SCCA dips*&t in a CRX in about 100hrs or track time.

Don't get me wrong, SCCA has been my racing "home" since 1987. First in autocross then IT, but it has become often partipant inbred and lost the appeal because it stopped being fun. Its hard to have fun getting knocked around by big walleted yo-yos willing to risk your life in a crash for a $3 trophy. I was never a mid pack guy, and I'm not in Lemons either. SCCA needs to relax, reduce the barriers to entry and be more inclusive, but it'll never happen because the current crowed is too vested in the status quo. The market will decide and is already. Given a relatively stable % of people race, I'd be interested to see the trend in participation in Club racing, and plot that with the rise of NASA, Lemons and Chump. Are these conquest series or bringing new customers to the table? If new, maybe Lemons will be a feeder series to the SCCA, but as it is now I kinda doubt it.

[Greg Amy]

Please tell me what you really think.
You didn't ask me, but I'll offer the following: the only main problem I have with ChumpCar and Lemons is that they are fundamentally dishonest. Statements such as "The car is a 285$ car.. All legal" are, plainly and simply, a lie. You may be able to build that car for "$285", but you're twisting rules backwards and forwards and you have access to skills, resources, and parts that the general public does not.

For you to tell "Bob off the street" that he can go racing ChumpCar for $285 is an out-and-out fabrication. You disagree? Then I'll buy that car right here, right now, for $570 cash and you can go build two more of them just like it. Make it $600 so you have a little extra spending money, for inflation. Just tell me where to send that and where to pick up the cars.

Don't get me wrong: I like the concept. And I like the original, honest implementation of the concept when it began as LeMons years ago. But it's ranged so far from that original concept that it's completely unrecognizable.


SCCA has too many one-time and on-going barriers to entry that are not risk justified...I also don't have to jump through licensing hoops, physicals etc, etc...
I infer you mean things such as personal safety gear, as well as required vehicle safety gear? With that you have no disagreement from me; I'm well on record as saying it takes a good chunk of coin just to be able to walk up to someone and rent a car.

But the problem there is you're comparing apples-to-oranges. SCCA is a very large organization, with a lot at risk, a lot to lose. It's a big target. As such, it has to mandate a large amount insurance-required safety equipment as hedges against legal action (see recent addition of H&NRs).

LeMons and ChumpCar, on the other hand - as well as local roundy-round tracks and such - are not nearly the same size target and are thus not as attractive legal targets as SCCA is. So they can get away with lower levels of required safety equipment, because they're less likely to get sued. And if they do get sued, there's less at risk to lose.

If/when LeMons and ChumpCar becomes the 800-lb gorillas you can be assured that they won't be nearly as free-and-easy with minimum safety equipment standards as they are now (see: NASA, which used to be the low-end up-and-comer).


Its hard to have fun getting knocked around by big walleted yo-yos willing to risk your life in a crash for a $3 trophy.And the more attractive these cars become, the more those "big-walleted yo-yos" are going to come a-callin'. Just as with the discussion about Improved Touring going National, the more attractive something becomes the more the money comes; it's called "first mover advantage". That's why you are spending $3000 per race.

It's not about the cars, guys. It's about being an immature series that's able to get away with some things that the larger organizations cannot. And it's very ironic that the more you try to tease people away from the bigger orgs in order the grow these, the more you are becoming exactly what you think you're running away from...

GA

[seckerich]

Chump car and Lemons are popular because there is a perception that you are out there racing against a huge field and can have bragging rights that you beat 200 cars. In reality only about 10% have a chance and are way more expensive than any $500 and are closer to the $10,000 - $15,000 quoted earlier. These are the haves that spend a few thousand more between them after each race to make it faster. I know, because I have built some of the parts. Not saying it is bad or good, just different.

Now blow smoke up our butts and call it the future of SCCA so special classes are created and special races added and we are now chumpcar, not SCCA. You have heard many times you can run the cars in ITE, or similar catch all classes. I would be all for a Track Time only class in SCCA where you meet IT safety rules and run what ya brung so to speak. A racer is a racer and should be welcome regardless of car choice.

Dump these cars in with some groups and it will be disruptive to those that invested their money to race the classes offered. I do agree that if you have a pulse and 5 cars NASA will create you a class. Pulse might not even be required.

[wepsbee]

Cant build a front running race car for $500. Do you ever change wear parts like bearings or tranny's. Is the $500 a one time cost, once a year or what. Do you change struts or shocks? These costs add up fast. Finding someone who truthfully sells you a running vehicle with all components operable for significantly less than $500 is just not real. Getting Bob down the street to sell you a car in this condition and just write a bill of sale for $200 is just dishonest. No one really believes this happens for real, everyone just winks and nods and ignores it. A drive what you bring series would be nice but there would have to be some separation between real fast and real slow cars to avoid the confrontations that wouls happen. Kinda like......SCCA already has.

[Flyinglizard]

I get little obsessed . I hate not winning,. I am building this car to try and force some rules and maybe generate a three class structure for the Chumps.
LCC;The real 500$ cars, basically any ITB or ITC level car. 4cyl stock brakes ,body etc. 205 tires

BCC; The next gen/class cars, are the 6cyl E 30, any miata, any jap 6cyl car about 200hp or less.205tires

CCX;The X class covers the can am cars, non fact boosted, cut bodies, engine swaps.
etc. 245 tires

( all tires are 190TW or higher. ) I would like to change to 180 to Use the Kumho XS or change to higher , 250 would be great and reduce the brake cost and tire cost. I run most of my cars on 300TW dunlops. DZ101.
The cars are serviced evry 20hrs for hub bearings, axles, oil, etc.
Pads last about 14hrs . They are new each race.
I under stand that some regions have the ITE. we dont and the tech guys just bitch, so we just go elsewere. We will run the Turbo Jett @ the PBOC 6 hr race ,next jan .and Ihope to have it checked out and running @ WGI july 25th.
Thanks for your input on this matter...
MM

[Spinnetti]

Greg, I see you "get it" and you are right on several points, but might misunderstand my intention. I'm not saying "dump SCCA and go Lemons", I'm saying "Learn from what they do well and emulate that"... I want to come back to the SCCA, but in a way that isn't going to waste all my free time and cost me a fortune every other season in belts, window nets, personal gear, hans, physicals ad nuseaum only to drive a car I couldn't build how I wanted.

You hit the nail on the head though that the d-bags will find lemons and chump and quickly ruin that too, and in fact its already underway. Last race had a huge field of giant motorhomes and expensive cars in the paddock, and more selfish/angry/entitled rich guys than even last year. Me and my racing buddies figure its got at most 4-5 more years at most before its lost its market advantage and isn't fun... its already creeping that way.

My $3k a race is 4 tires, front and rear pads, engine and tranny fluid change, rotors every few events, race car fuel and tow fuel. I have a big, heavy, thirsty V8, so its like $800 just in gas. I'm starting to build a small/light/non-miata crazy frankenstein roadster that will be much cheaper to run. That said, I paid $350 for the car, $19 for a new fan belt, about $100 in fresh fluids, $100 for junkyard shocks to replace the collapsed air suspension, $30 for a complete coil over kit with springs (all 4 corners) new from ebay (random china stuff with turns out has 800lb springs), and I splurged after the first race and put fresh spark plugs in and a stock factory air filter. From an "official" cost perspective, that was it. I also got $90 for the cats from the recycler, so yes, I really did build a sub $500 front runner (an endurance race is more than just car!). The rest of the money was in stuff that isn't counted - race seat, cage, fire bottle, belts, brake pads, tires and what not. What's most amazing is the shocks are blown (I have one decent stock replacement one), the engine has 250k miles on it and both it and the trans are untouched other than taking the smog equipement off. The tires are 190, but the thing is amazingly fast around the corners and great under braking. I realized I could spend a lot less and still have the same or more thrills along with more track time, and since most of the guys are also on blown shocks, worn out motors etc, the playing field is level enough.

All good things will come to an end, but right now, the Lemons ride is good.... SCCA leadership needs to figure out how to be more inclusive and lower cost if they want this market... when Lemons burns out (I think Chump will die off much faster as its closer to the SCCA), then something else will arise... its kinda like the birth and decay of nations or big corporations... the younger more agile will get the business unless the "old guard" finds ways to stay fresh...

[tom91ita]

Some of you know the $500 itc car crx lee bought. It had a cage etc in it. It took minimal work to get lemons ready. It could just as easily have gone SCCA racing except we would have needed crx fenders etc.

There are deals out there. And it is easier/cheaper to get them into lemons trim.

We are running for about $500 each. But two $500 payments pay the team entry. One pays for tires and the two owners "pay" with sweat equity. I have actually told the owner he Ned's to charge $600 to cover future costs for bearings etc. but since we are all Honda owners we pretty much are using up old stuff from our garages.

[downingracing]

... I want to come back to the SCCA, but in a way that isn't going to waste all my free time and cost me a fortune every other season in belts, window nets, personal gear, hans, physicals ad nuseaum only to drive a car I couldn't build how I wanted.

Car prep time is the same for any form of racing and will vary on the car you pick. My car requires almost 0 maintenance (Honda!). If you want to run an enduro series - you may be where you should be. SCCA doesn't have (in my area) many enduro races. And for the "cost me a fortune" - I think you've been miss-informed. Belts are good until Dec. of the expiration year so you get 3 years out of belts. (and they cost around $100 - so $33/yr for belts) Window nets don't expire. Helmets are every 10 years. The other personal gear is "replace as you need based on condition/use". The H&N device purchase is a one time thing too. And the Physical - Really?? You should be getting one of these every few years anyway - just take the form in and have them fill it out during that exam.




... My $3k a race is 4 tires, front and rear pads, engine and tranny fluid change, rotors every few events, race car fuel and tow fuel...

Wow! That is a big number for a race weekend (imho). Is that for Chump or SCCA?




... All good things will come to an end, but right now, the Lemons ride is good.... SCCA leadership needs to figure out how to be more inclusive and lower cost if they want this market... when Lemons burns out (I think Chump will die off much faster as its closer to the SCCA), then something else will arise... its kinda like the birth and decay of nations or big corporations... the younger more agile will get the business unless the "old guard" finds ways to stay fresh...

I guess if the goal is to go out and have fun on the cheap - this logic works. As stated before, as soon as someone willing to spend some 'real' money shows up, all the $500 front running cars are now worth about $250 in scrap. NASA has a 'more inclusive' business model. Bring them cars and they will make room for you! Of course, once your car counts fall off or someone else comes along with a better deal - you're out. Having rules around classes provides an opportunity to 'know what you're up against' and make choices along the way to get out of it what you're looking for.

I'm here to have FUN and enjoy a great weekend of racing with friends/family 5-6 times a year. I put in very little effort to car prep and even less to driver training! I spend way less time AND money than most and have MORE fun. To do that, I race a Honda in ITA. Car is very easy on parts and easy to drive. It gets parked in November and sits on the race rubber in the garage until May when I push the button (starts right up) and take it to the track. That first trip is probably 2 hours of car prep from nut/bolt check to fluid change to spray wax. Then for the rest of the season, I spend about 1 hour of prep time before every weekend to get the car ready to go. I'm not spending anywhere near $3k a race (way closer to $700-1k if you count all costs) to run towards the front of ITA.

Maybe things are different in the areas you guys/girls are in. SCCA around here is strong and hands down the BEST place to be for club racing. I've said it before and will say it again - SCCA is the ONLY club I'll run with for several reasons and I'm happy to discuss those reasons over beers!

[Flyinglizard]

The prep level and development cost is very high in Chumpcar if you want to win. The cars are a lot more than SCCA IT cars.
Each Chump race cost me about 3000$ per car, that includes the entry,fuel,tires, pads. etc. The prep is about 20 hrs per car.( after they have been developed to run for 14hrs.)

The SCCA cars cost about 400$ per weekend, entry, fuel, tires,.
The SCCA is a lot cheaper , $ wise, prep time wise is maybe 2hrs,eachrace and axles every 4.

Many SCCA drivers run Chump races because of the night racing and seat time. Night is where it is at for my teams.

[gran racing]

Night racing and a fun, low key event is why I did it.

[Spinnetti]

Matt,

Thanks for the replies.. Actually, when I ran my Toyota, I ran it the same as your honda. It was fast and an easy keeper.. Still could I suppose, but have to convert to B, and make changes to do that, hence my vacillating. Several years in a row, I want to hit an event, but to do that, I have to renew my scca license, then either do a drivers school or apply for a waiver, go get a physical, Check the latest rules and update stuff, buy new wheels, tires (to convert to itb (from ita) and belts and add 200# and buy a Hans. That's at least $3,000 to run a single sprint race... if you race constantly, the incremental changes are not a big deal, but when you've had a few years off and a class change, do you do all that stuff to run 1-2 weekends a year, or do you just show up and drive Lemons? I can't seem to convey it well, but when faced with those choices, my nice IT car still sits, and I've built a car for less than what it will cost me to run my IT car once, and have run 10 or so Lemons races (typically 2-3/yr). I just show up and drive. For me to run a $3,000 weekend, that's $750 per driver (4 drivers) or cheaper (if more drivers) for a top car, and that's for at least 4 hrs track time at least and all expenses including tow gas, so $187 per hr all inclusive... no way SCCA is cheaper than that, and I didn't have to jump through ANY hoops to get on track. The SCCA crowd doesn't seem to 'get it', but I can tell you lots of others do, and lots of SCCA guys are running Lemons these days faced with those same obstacles in SCCA...

I'd still like to run, but can't see pouring all that time an money to run a couple times a year. I'll run Lemons until that becomes a hassle then re-evaluate. By then though, I'll have sold my IT car for the garage space.... probably regret that later...

[gran racing]

Based on what you've said, I don't understand why you keep your IT car. Seems like a good way to earn some ride money.


go get a physical, Check the latest rules and update stuff, buy new wheels, tires (to convert to itb (from ita) and belts and add 200# and buy a Hans. That's at least $3,000 to run a single sprint race...

Sell your existing wheels, get some 6" wide ones from a junk yard. Buy some take-offs (tires), borrow belts and a HANS. I've been borrowing one from a couple of differen people for some of the similar reasons.


no way SCCA is cheaper than that, and I didn't have to jump through ANY hoops to get on track.

I like that SCCA doesn't just let anyone out on the track with me in w2w racing. I was absolutely not fond of the idea in ChumpCar that just anyone regardless of experience or doing a school could be out there on track. The physical? Is that really so bad? I asked my doc why in the world aren't they doing this stuff normally and it takes an SCCA license to really check me over.

ChumpCar / Lemons are a different product than SCCA, just like roundy-round is different from ChumpCar. Hell, when I asked how much it would cost to race and the guy said $25 I clarified twice that I wanted to race, and not just get in to watch the race. Yet again, it's a different product than ChumpCar. Oh, you want to compare popularity. LMAO.

[Knestis]

... I like that SCCA doesn't just let anyone out on the track with me in w2w racing. ...

Do you start to worry that maybe the club is just trying to protect them...?

;)

K

[Spinnetti]

Based on what you've said, I don't understand why you keep your IT car. Seems like a good way to earn some ride money.



Sell your existing wheels, get some 6" wide ones from a junk yard. Buy some take-offs (tires), borrow belts and a HANS. I've been borrowing one from a couple of differen people for some of the similar reasons.



I like that SCCA doesn't just let anyone out on the track with me in w2w racing. I was absolutely not fond of the idea in ChumpCar that just anyone regardless of experience or doing a school could be out there on track. The physical? Is that really so bad? I asked my doc why in the world aren't they doing this stuff normally and it takes an SCCA license to really check me over.

ChumpCar / Lemons are a different product than SCCA, just like roundy-round is different from ChumpCar. Hell, when I asked how much it would cost to race and the guy said $25 I clarified twice that I wanted to race, and not just get in to watch the race. Yet again, it's a different product than ChumpCar. Oh, you want to compare popularity. LMAO.



Well, because I have the best stuff now. I wouldn't sell brand new panasports to get junk wheels. I'm proud of my car - its not just a means to an end, but an expression of my build and setup ability. Same reason I really don't want to sell it, but don't see great options in front of me. Its also got history as a Toyota Celebrity Challenge car, owned by the top guys both at Toyota and SCCA, my first race car etc... I can see you don't understand that convienence aspect, and that's ok, but customers speak with their dollars.. Up to the business if they want to listen with an open mind or not.

Clearly you've never raced Lemons... Those guys are better to race with than the SCCA crowd. I nearly set a track record in my first driver school and won my first race at IRP having never raced anything before, so I don't buy the noob argument. I've had one wheel mark in Lemons, but been hit hard once and completely totalled once (rear ended both times) in SCCA. If the SCCA had some no contact rules I'd be more likely to come back - I've seen some of jakes videos and the spec pinatas in action. I'd really be upset to have my car all jacked up by the demo derby guys - and I DON'T mean lemons.

I get that its a different product... but comparing products, its like saying Walmart and the local grocery store offer different product (what local grocery store you say?). We know who won that one. I like what the SCCA has to offer, its just gotten hard to deal with. All I'm sayin' is that it needent be so hard, and Lemons has proven that. Y'all ought to try it first then make valid comparisons on value/$. I'm not saying everybody go do Lemons, I'm saying make SCCA as easy as lemons and your field counts will go up, and we'll all enjoy the racing more.

[Ron Earp]

We're sort of going around in circles on this CrapCan topic. The thread started with this statement:


We ran with NASA last week @ Sebring.
" Chumpcars can run without any hassle".

To which a number of folks pointed out that chumpcars can run in some local SCCA regions, namely the Southeast/Florida as well as others. Therefore, if you wish to run your chumpcars in the SCCA then bring them out and show the SCCA crowd how popular and interesting the cars are. I suspect that if you turn up some new cars, faces, and model the SCCA will pay attention, at least at the regional level.

However, don't expect the SCCA to change the licencing requirements to fit chumpcar. The SCCA doesn't work like that and you fellows know full well as an organization the SCCA is slow to adopt new ideas - you wouldn't have started the thread if you didn't know that was the case.



Clearly you've never raced Lemons... Those guys are better to race with than the SCCA crowd. I'm not saying everybody go do Lemons, I'm saying make SCCA as easy as lemons and your field counts will go up, and we'll all enjoy the racing more.

I cut out some of your statement, but the jist of it is that you feel the SCCA is too difficult and the chumpcar model is superior. The SCCA isn't ever going to be "as easy as lemons", no way, no how. That might be at the detriment to the long-term viability of the club, but I don't think anyone who has posted on this thread thinks for one minute the SCCA "old-school" culture of licenses, national/regional class distinction, etc. is going to change. If the Lemons folks are better to race with, easier to race with, with better competition, then it sounds like you've found your racing home.

The SCCA is a duck. It walks, looks, and quacks like a duck. A dog you will not make it.

[Flyinglizard]

Spot on Ron,
We were/are hassled by the CFR crowd to no end. NASA is a welcome change. Cars are cars, they all cost a lot to run. Hassle value is the difference. MM

[webhound]

Oh man, I read all these threads with interest. I'm sort of dealing with these choices right now. Comp school is just a smidge out of the budget right now, although I do have an ITC car. I could borrow a HNR from a few different guys, so that cost gets taken out of the equation. One other consideration right now for me is the car counts, it looks like in NEDiv the ITC fields are thin, but I could convert to ITB pretty easily.

Not looking for answers here, but I think it's worth noting that even for a person with a race car, the budgetary issues are very real. I can run it with Chump in EC and defray some of the car's cost by renting seats, there really is no additional barrier to entry.

[Flyinglizard]

You can also remove the glass and run Chump, not EC. The issue is that you will be way slow.

[gran racing]

Well, because I have the best stuff now.

Obviously we don't do things that are rational or in many cases would make sense to anyone else. Same reason why you say that about the car sitting in your garage unused and not buying "not the best" wheels. Hey, I get it. Have my Prelude on the side of my house, won't be using it this year, might not be using it the following couple of years. Yet I still have not really tried selling it. Pretty much anyone who thinks about it logically thinks it's fairly foolish, which it is.


Clearly you've never raced Lemons...

No, but I have done ChumpCar and talked about my experience here (http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/blog/chumpcar-adventure/) and you'll see it was good overall. I did leave out how much contact there was at this event only because many swear that was a rare race weekend with them.


I get that its a different product... but comparing products,

You can't be everything to everyone. It just doesn't work.


but I could convert to ITB pretty easily.

ITB is great in the N.E. (biased opinion of course). Actually, IT in general is here. ITC like you said has pretty weak fields.


even for a person with a race car, the budgetary issues are very real.

For many people that's always going to be the case. I look at what just the travel cost to & from the Glen (from CT) is going to be in a few weeks.

I do genuinely like ChumpCar. If they were to show up at the Glen, Lime Rock, or Summit's main course I'd be much more motivated to find a seat.

[jumbojimbo]

Oh man, I read all these threads with interest. I'm sort of dealing with these choices right now. Comp school is just a smidge out of the budget right now, although I do have an ITC car. I could borrow a HNR from a few different guys, so that cost gets taken out of the equation. One other consideration right now for me is the car counts, it looks like in NEDiv the ITC fields are thin, but I could convert to ITB pretty easily.

Not looking for answers here, but I think it's worth noting that even for a person with a race car, the budgetary issues are very real. I can run it with Chump in EC and defray some of the car's cost by renting seats, there really is no additional barrier to entry.

I know you're not looking for answers, but I've thought seriously about running a CC event in my car. But think about this, if you run CC and rent the seats, that adds some additional complications. First, what happens when the car runs 8 laps and dies? Second, what happens when one of the other drivers balls it up?

Overall, the LEAST favorite part of racing for me is the maintainance and overhead associated with getting the car ready and to the track. If you rent your CC seats now you are setting yourself up to be a defacto team manager. Are you going to make enough money to make it worth that hassle and risk? And when the event is over, the car is used up and you're looking at a half season of maint. Ugh.

On the other hand, if you don't have the money to do a school, it might be a way to spend a little less and get more track time. And you just take a risk on the car breaking. Just be realistic about the costs and risks.

edit: also, if you did run CC, think about how much more prepared you'll be for school next year. Or, with a couple of races under your belt you could make a strong case for the alternate licensing process.

[Flyinglizard]

Web, (name?)
The SCCA school, is by far the best deal for track time that you will ever pay for. If you cant afford the 300-400$ school, how are you going to afford the 3000$ Chump race?
MM

[forestdweller37]

Oh man, I read all these threads with interest. I'm sort of dealing with these choices right now. Comp school is just a smidge out of the budget right now, although I do have an ITC car. I could borrow a HNR from a few different guys, so that cost gets taken out of the equation. One other consideration right now for me is the car counts, it looks like in NEDiv the ITC fields are thin, but I could convert to ITB pretty easily.

Not looking for answers here, but I think it's worth noting that even for a person with a race car, the budgetary issues are very real. I can run it with Chump in EC and defray some of the car's cost by renting seats, there really is no additional barrier to entry.

Webhound,
I run both Chumpcar and dabble in SCCA regional club racing. A CC weekend is a much bigger production than simply showing up with a car on an open trailer and a few tools. Figure in the canopy, more tools, tires, major spares, multiple fuel jugs, fuel drip pan, pit fire extinguisher, radios or pit board, many lawn chairs, provisions for 4-6 people, etc. If it's a 24, it only gets bigger. Heck, I take my Miata to SCCA Regionals to relax! Endurance racing really takes a toll on the car too! The maintenance, although maybe lower per hour of track time, is much more frequent. The speed differentials between ITC and the rest of your run group would be comparable to what you would experience taking the car as-is to a Chump race.

Jumbojimbo made the comment that some Chumpcar races would help prepare you for licensing school or make a case for alternate licensing. This is true, but in my case it worked the other direction. Another member of my Chumpcar team and I both went to separate SCCA licensing schools. The experience made us both much more comfortable and prepared us to handle racing in traffic at our next Chump race. The school still involves lots of track time, less "infrastructure investment", and makes for a great weekend at the race track.

-Chris

[webhound]

Web, (name?)
The SCCA school, is by far the best deal for track time that you will ever pay for. If you cant afford the 300-400$ school, how are you going to afford the 3000$ Chump race?
MM

The only/next school in our Div is likely going to be quite a bit more than 300-400. I'll probably look at one for early next year as an alternative.

Not doubting that you pay $3000 all in for your very competitive efforts, but I'm sort of thinking it should be more likely around $2000 for our team with the ITC Civic, perhaps a bit more including lodging and tow fuel. I have a lot of that money covered by the seat rentals. Sure, what's left over will be more than 300-400, but considering some of the expenditures will be able to be spread over the longer term, and considering the amount of seat time we'll all get, especially if you include a Friday test day, I think the value is still going to be pretty good.


Webhound,
I run both Chumpcar and dabble in SCCA regional club racing. A CC weekend is a much bigger production than simply showing up with a car on an open trailer and a few tools. Figure in the canopy, more tools, tires, major spares, multiple fuel jugs, fuel drip pan, pit fire extinguisher, radios or pit board, many lawn chairs, provisions for 4-6 people, etc. If it's a 24, it only gets bigger. Heck, I take my Miata to SCCA Regionals to relax! Endurance racing really takes a toll on the car too! The maintenance, although maybe lower per hour of track time, is much more frequent. The speed differentials between ITC and the rest of your run group would be comparable to what you would experience taking the car as-is to a Chump race.

-Chris

I've been autocrossing seriously for a while, so I've got a lot of the peripheral equipment, like fuel jugs, fire ext, canopy, tools, etc. I've also got a pretty good spares package ready for this car, including a fresh rebuilt trans and head, just need uprights ready with new hubs and bearings.

Will