Lime Rock "Schools Out" Race

[JLawton]

Looks to be very full! Good news although still not a lot of students for the school.

I'm wondering how many of the ITA/SM cross overs realize there was a weight increase? I think a few will be a little surprised!

[Greg Amy]

I'm wondering how many of the ITA/SM cross overs realize there was a weight increase? I think a few will be a little surprised!

BWAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!

GA, who's working tech for the weekend and rubbing his hands together while twisting the ends of his handlebar moustache...

Edit: Anyone know the current policy for pets at LRP? Don't see anything in the supps on it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

In an effort to keep some customers happy, there might be a proactive effort to try and get them over to STL during registration...or at least a nice big notification at tech...

[Greg Amy]

In an effort to treat competitors as adults and to encourage them to read the regs that the Club publishes for them each month, there might be a proactive effort to try and get more than two volunteers to work Scrutineering each weekend. You know, like, guys that normally run Miatas in ITA and aren't actually racing this weekend, but could volunteer to help out and do things like hold other competitors' hands...?
Fixed.

;)

Horse...water....all that.


Edit: Two weekends ago at NHMS there were originally zero volunteers to work Tech. That's right: zero. The one person that had volunteered to chief the event had an out-of-town work conflict and the region had to scramble to find a replacement. I was scheduled to be in Louisiana on family biz, and other possibilities were either busy with family or were actually racing that weekend. There was very real risk of not having anyone.

Fortunately for all you competitors that had a great time racing Memorial Day weekend, one guy (Dave LaPoint) was able to come down on Saturday and Sunday to chief, one person who was actually racing that weekend (Dick Patullo) was able to chief Friday (the day when most of you got your tech sticker), and my family situation changed such after driving home 24 hours from Louisiana I was able to spend the next day-and-a-half working Tech. And that was it.

And yet some still expressed dissatisfaction at the apparent lack of level of scrutineering on Saturday and Sunday.

Just like prepping your car for the next race, this "running the races thing" doesn't magically happen overnight while you have dreams of grandeur of racing in Formula 1. We certainly don't have the luxury of spending a lot of time treating adult competitors as "customers", as one would were they running a rental operation and making money off this volunteer organization.

You want something changed, improved, or run differently, it's time to step off the high horse and step up to the plate. We'll give you the bat and you can take a shot at the home run. Just sayin'. - GA

[itracer]

And yet some still expressed dissatisfaction at the apparent lack of level of scrutineering on Saturday and Sunday.

Actually -- I was pleasantly surprised with an Impound All after qualifying and everyone was weighed.

Kudos to the IT drivers for stepping up (Dave & Dick) and covering the weekend.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Oh hell.... The chance to bounce Miatas for weight? I may have to come down on Saturday....

Jeremy - Pulling his calendar out now. :)

[wepsbee]

BWAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!

GA, who's working tech for the weekend and rubbing his hands together while twisting the ends of his handlebar moustache...

Edit: Anyone know the current policy for pets at LRP? Don't see anything in the supps on it.
LRP policy is no dogs allowed. Changed I think beginning of last year.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Geezus Greg, it's a simple suggestion that could be as easy as a piece of paper posted at Registration and Impound. It would help everyone.

And as far as being there to volunteer on a non-racing weekend, sorry, my 'selfish' schedule THIS weekend is full of Boy Scout camp-out chaperoning, Little League baseball game managing, All-Star try-out coordinating, and the actual possibility of mowing my lawn. Sometimes a suggestion can just be a suggestion without it becoming a 'it's your idea, you do it' rant.

[Ed Funk]

Oh Boy! The Greg and Andy show is back!!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Oh Boy! The Greg and Andy show is back!!!

Ya ya, I get it. I know, just as much as anyone, how frustrating it can be as a volunteer (within SCCA or not) to have non-volunteers telling you how much something could be better if you just did it 'this' way. That is a legitimate gripe. But let's just take this for what it is please, a non-intrusive, one-time suggestion that can be as simple as a couple of signs - or even something a tech guy mentions - that will help double dipping entrants AND tech workers keep their heartache down on a regional weekend.

Nothing more, nothing less. If Jeremy wants to make time to come down and volunteer so he can be the one who personally tells SM guys they are underweight in the ITA impound, then that's great too.

I am not privy to the who's or what's people complained about during the NHMS weekend because I wasn't one of them but I understand it can get frustrating for volunteers when staffing levels are lower than expected

[Greg Amy]

Horse ---> water.

Maybe in addition to that note in Registration directing people to the Fastrack we can put a note in the bathrooms, directing people to the Registration note directing them to the Fastrack? Then maybe we can put a note at the food vendor, pointing to the bathroom, pointing to Registration, pointing to Fastrack? Then maybe can in Tech, pointing to the food vendor, pointing to the bathroom, pointing to Registration, pointing to Fastrack? And then maybe Tom Hanks can work with the Illuminati to decode discrete DaVinci references to clues to point everyone toward the Tech note...?

Or, at some point we can just consider SCCA competitors adults, capable of their own well-being, and trust that they will do the right thing and keep up with the regs as they change.

But here's the really fun part: I'm not going to be looking up any weights of any cars as they come across the scales; we don't have the time or personnel for that and that's what the new weight sticker are for. If a Miata comes across the scales weighing 2390# with a 2380# sticker on the side, it's a pass as far as I'm concerned. Remember, we're a peer-reviewed and -policed organization; it's up to YOU as a competitor (and/or friend) to approach them and let them know that a trip to Wal-Mart's sporting goods department is in their very near future...or your responsibility to go to Tech with a filled out protest form and $25.

Your call...

GA

[zchris]

So Greg, when I run my ITA Miata across the scales and it weighs 2100 and it says 2050 on the door, your OK with that. Man, your the best! I'm buying you a beer.:happy204:
Chris

[Greg Amy]

So Greg, when I run my ITA Miata across the scales and it weighs 2100 and it says 2050 on the door, your OK with that. Man, your the best! I'm buying you a beer.
That's the way the system works, Chris. If Tech had time and personnel to verify the proper weight of all cars' stickers, then there would be no need to have the stickers in the first place! Those stickers are there as a convenience to Scrutineering, and as an advertisement to competitors that you're trying to cheat.

It's no different than if your competitors know you're running an illegal cam and choose not to protest you. But in the case of the weight, that "Hey! I'm running an illegal camshaft!" is plastered on the side of the car. If your competitors are OK with it - and you have the balls to do it - then so am I... ;) - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Or, at some point we can just consider SCCA competitors adults, capable of their own well-being, and trust that they will do the right thing and keep up with the regs as they change.



Or, we as adults, can realize that these are part time ITA competitors who are not reviewing the IT section of the Fast Track every month for a very atypical weight increase, and actually do the simplest thing to try and prevent any hardship...because we are a Club and we are good sports.

:rolleyes:

[Greg Amy]

...and actually do the simplest thing to try and prevent any hardship...because we are a Club and we are good sports.
A great idea, Tom Hanks. However, given Mushie and I are the only ones (so far) working Tech this weekend, I'm pretty confident your competitors (and renters) would prefer he and I focus on silly things like getting people vehicle annuals and distributing tech stickers versus the really exciting things like "being good sports" and holding people's hands that don't read the regs.

<insert rolly-eye incon here...>

GA, who says "volunteering ain't difficult; try it some time, you might actually like it..."

[BruceG]

A great idea, Tom Hanks. However, given Mushie and I are the only ones (so far) working Tech this weekend, I'm pretty confident your competitors (and renters) would prefer he and I focus on silly things like getting people vehicle annuals and distributing tech stickers versus the really exciting things like "being good sports" and holding people's hands that don't read the regs.

<insert rolly-eye incon here...>

GA, who says "volunteering ain't difficult; try it some time, you might actually like it..."

seems like most of us have no right to interject any comment, given our lack of contribution! My contribution is to man one half of the flatbed to scrape you up after a shunt......LOL.

[mossaidis]

I hoping to be at WGI for July NARRC event... volunteering, crutches and all.

[Greg Amy]

seems like most of us have no right to interject any comment, given our lack of contribution!
ABSOLUTELY not true! In fact, commentary/feedback to a volunteer club organization is not only a "right", it's a responsibility! However, after making your suggestions, if things are still not run the way you want them to and you don't volunteer to change the system, you don't have the right to stomp your feet and get all pissy at the volunteers.

Change within a volunteer organization comes from the inside, not from tossing tomatoes.

Hey, wait a sec...isn't there a race this weekend? Yes, I think there is!

GA

[Ed Funk]

Going to the "Tomato Toss" this weekend...maybe I'll try to race also. Don't think Steph got enough trophies for racing and tomato tossing. Maybe I'll bring some balsamic vinaigrette and goat cheese.

[JLawton]

Holy crap Greg. A little over the top, even for you!! Simmer down there big guy.

That was my argument about weight stickers on the cars. Does that mean tech won't look the weight up? And what if you show up with a ITB AMC Pacer. Who the f*ck knows what that is supposed to weigh? LOL You could put any weight sticker on your car.

[Greg Amy]

A little over the top, even for you!! Simmer down there big guy.
'Scuse me? With which point(s) are you disagreeing?

Does this mean you are volunteering to put up Andy's "please read your Fastrack" notices...? :D Talk to Pat when you register in, she can give you the paper, marker, and tape. Talk to Andy about the preferred format. :)


Does that mean tech won't look the weight up?That's exactly what it means, and exactly what these stickers are for. Why else do you think the SCCA made this requirement...?

When you've got a group of 30+ cars lined up for the scales, all of different weights, probably with different configurations, engine sizes, etc, and with only a small number of volunteers to accurately corral, weigh, and evaluate those weights, all while these 30+ competitors are steaming hot wanting to be released from impound so they can go back to their paddock spaces, does it not make sense to delegate some of that investigation and evaluation responsibility back to the competitors, people who know the cars FAR better than anyone else at the track...?

Peer-reviewed, peer responsibility, and peer-compliance, just like every other prep regulation. If you wish to have each of those stickers reviewed in impound, please do feel free to join us in Scrutineering; I'll ask Brian to give you that explicit responsibility*. If you accept that responsibility we can file paper against any competitor that shows up this weekend with the wrong weights displayed on the car.


And what if you show up with a ITB AMC Pacer. Who the f*ck knows what that is supposed to weigh?Come by Tech, I'll show you how to use a "GCR". They even make a little table with all the weights, I can show you how to use it...it's a whole lot faster when you only have to look up that one car.


You could put any weight sticker on your car.You "could" also put any camshaft in your car.

GA

* And please don't give us the excuse about how you're racing this weekend. First, I've been doing it in between my racing sessions for years, and second, you're driving a Miata.

[BruceG]

ABSOLUTELY not true! In fact, commentary/feedback to a volunteer club organization is not only a "right", it's a responsibility! However, after making your suggestions, if things are still not run the way you want them to and you don't volunteer to change the system, you don't have the right to stomp your feet and get all pissy at the volunteers.

Change within a volunteer organization comes from the inside, not from tossing tomatoes.

Hey, wait a sec...isn't there a race this weekend? Yes, I think there is!

GA

LOL........I was trying to support you on this issue Greg

[Gregg]

Horse ---> water.

Maybe in addition to that note in Registration directing people to the Fastrack we can put a note in the bathrooms, directing people to the Registration note directing them to the Fastrack?
Wouldn't it be easier to just have a sign @ Registration directing people to the bathrooms? Afterall that's where the Fastrack can usually be found.

Edit: My mistake. The bathroom is where Sportscar can usually be found, and the Fastrack hasn't been included in that rag for years.

Sorry--let's get back to the topic of volunteerism (Hey Andy, didn't you say you would be helping out the Boy Scouts this weekend?)

[dickita15]

Holy crap Greg. A little over the top, even for you!! Simmer down there big guy.

That was my argument about weight stickers on the cars. Does that mean tech won't look the weight up? And what if you show up with a ITB AMC Pacer. Who the f*ck knows what that is supposed to weigh? LOL You could put any weight sticker on your car.

After working tech and being teched a couple of times this year I think the stickers are the best thing since sliced bread. Doing annuals has given tech an opportunity to help drivers learn to look up their weight. Doing impound weights is super easy. No arguments about what “I thought it was supposed to weigh”.
I disagree with Greg that the stickers will not be checked but it would be a separate compliance item that could be done at some events and might be checked at your annual. But as Greg said there has to be some competitor that knows what your car should weigh and that is the easiest way to know they are right.
As to Greg’s volunteer thread, well he is not wrong but is obviously having too much fun. Hey Greg, are you on new pain meds for the shoulder?
Oh yeah, who cares what a Pacer weighs.

[Greg Amy]

...but is obviously having too much fun. Hey Greg, are you on new pain meds for the shoulder?
Hey, don't bogart my thread, man! Two on the hook and a third nibbling...dammit! But if it gets just one child to read the regulations, it's worth it! ;)

GA, who can only imagine the evil Brian Mushnick will dig up as tech chief this weekend...

[StephenB]

I worked the First race of the year in Tech and had a GREAT time! I will help with the tech line if you want since I will be at the event and can help check gear/ helmet stickers. (No lic though to sign) I can't help the entire day since I have child duties as well , but getting that loooonnnnggg line that LR always has to go a little faster would be my pleasure! What time do I start? Oh and I think a good idea would be a seperate line for groups 1 and 2 that I could do if you wanted me to.

For the record when we did tech at the first race we checked the weight of EVERY CAR at the entire event. All I did was verify the weight on the side of the car. It should be part of the competitors responsibility to verify it is correct IMHO and if tech catches it then they do but you can't expect them to know all the cars like each driver does. Do you have any idea how many different lbs a damn miata can be between the first model year and the last model year... I was confused as all hell and without those stickers you could have told me anything you wanted and I would have believed you. Those stickers allow everyone to know what you are "claiming" you should be and allow eachother to "verify" your not giving a line of BS to the tech guy that can't tell the difference between a 1.6 and a 1.8 for example. (Like me)
So in short I love them damn stickers everyone bitched so much about!

Stephen

[raffaelli]

Geezus Greg, it's a simple suggestion that could be as easy as a piece of paper posted at Registration and Impound. It would help everyone.

And as far as being there to volunteer on a non-racing weekend, sorry, my 'selfish' schedule THIS weekend is full of Boy Scout camp-out chaperoning, Little League baseball game managing, All-Star try-out coordinating, and the actual possibility of mowing my lawn. Sometimes a suggestion can just be a suggestion without it becoming a 'it's your idea, you do it' rant.

Sounds like a perfect weekend Andy. Have fun!
:023:

[Greg Amy]

Stephen, I can't be there Thursday night, so Mushnick may be "it" for tech then. I'm sure that there's going to be a lot of freaked-out racers from the early groups looking to get their tech stickers Friday AM. Anything you - or any racer, who is automatically a Regional scrutineer and is authorized to inspect helmets, logbooks, and issue event stickers - can do to help would be sincerely appreciated. If folks can help with that stuff during the day it frees other scru crew for other checks, such as, oh I dunno, verifying validity of weight stickers on cars... ;)

ITB, ITS, ITR is Group 4, which won't be on track until after 11:00; ITA/7/C probably won't hit the track until after lunch; SSM/SM2, and STU/L are at the end of the day. Stop by and help in Tech and I'll buy you a beer at the party at the end of the day... :)

GA

[lawtonglenn]

You "could" also put any camshaft in your car.



I can't ... except maybe as ballast

[StephenB]

Stop by and help in Tech and I'll buy you a beer at the party at the end of the day... :)

GA

FREE BEER!!! Yahooo! I am in ;)
I will help out Friday AM assuming everything goes as planned and I arrive at the track sometime overnight. I know I will need to register first thing Friday AM then I will head to tech.


I can't ... except maybe as ballast

Glen, you should see the new cam shaft for the Renesis!


Stephen

[mossaidis]

cam... whatever, I am running a supercharger on my car ;)

[Ed Funk]

cam... whatever, I am running a supercharger on my car ;)

Yabbut, you'll be pushin' pedals with a crutch....that should even things out.

[JLawton]

'Scuse me? With which point(s) are you disagreeing?




Hmmmmmm. I don't recall anything in my comment about disagreeing with what you're saying (but please feel free to point it out if i missed it in my own post) In fact, as other posters have said, everyone agrees with you............ however, your good message is getting lost because of the delivery. I'm not so sure being a dick will have everyone jumping up and down, volunteering to help you....... and yes, it is really is helping the club but with the delivery people will infer it's all about helping you.

Didn't your mother ever tell you that you get further with sugar than spice? Be nice. it makes people much more sympathetic to the cause.

[gran racing]

Talk to Pat when you register in, she can give you the paper, marker, and tape.

So someone here who will be at the event man up, print out a couple while at work (I know, you're too busy lol), and ask to put them up at the registration booth. This is something IMO that should be done. At the test & tune yesterday, many Miatas had no idea about the weight change.

Not so sure how dissappointed I am that group 8 was full before I attempted to register, and the car will already be driven in the SM grouping.

[ner88]

Group8 should have been opened up as the Prod guys have been moved.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Wait... Is adding 100 lbs to the miata an evil consiracy by national to increase the STL entries and to finally push out HP, etc? :)

[Raceman77]

Wow 5 it7.

[StephF]

So why in the world do we have to tell anyone to read their own rules?????????????

If I roll into to impound with a car underweight I'd get told, "Tough shit. Pay attention to the rules change."

You want to take care of your own customers, post a sign at your compound instead of worrying about posting them all over the track. And FWIW, I don't think Greg's being a dick about it, not at all. He's pointing out the ridiculousness of the whole thing.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So why in the world do we have to tell anyone to read their own rules?????????????

If I roll into to impound with a car underweight I'd get told, "Tough shit. Pay attention to the rules change."

You want to take care of your own customers, post a sign at your compound instead of worrying about posting them all over the track. And FWIW, I don't think Greg's being a dick about it, not at all. He's pointing out the ridiculousness of the whole thing.

No Steph, he is being a dick. All that was suggested was that a informational posting could be put up to help these guys and what we got back was a 'screw those guys for not knowing and BTW if you want something done, come do it yourself' post.

And why is it different? Because it's not their usual class. YES, they need to be up to date on the rules of ANY class that they participate in, but this is a VERY anomalous mid-year change to a weight in IT so they could have EASILY missed it. It's just a request to make an effort to let them know that as of just 6 days ago, the weight of the classification (that can ONLY be found on-line) they double-dip in, has gone up by enough so that they may want to consider another class to dip in, figure out a tough weight-addition and removal plan, or just to cancel their 2nd entry at registration.

This is supposed to be fun, helping our fellow racers with a piece of information they could easily have overlooked is simply NOT a big request, nor is it ridiculous if you look at the big picture. Should they know? Yes. But the probability is that they don't and it's easy to understand why. Why not try and be a community and give them a heads up? Two pieces of paper and 4 pieces of tape. Whooptie-freaking do.

[gran racing]

Group8 should have been opened up as the Prod guys have been moved.


Yeah, I thought the same thing. When SSM still didn't show up on motorsports reg in the options, I gave the Terry a phone call. Still wasn't an option. I was on the fence about this event anyways, so this made my choice easier. Made my wife happy! LOL



So why in the world do we have to tell anyone to read their own rules?


If it were SM or SM2 rules, I'd absolutely agree. However, there are two other ways we can look at it. The first is to be selfish - regions need entries or it WILL hurt you. Even if you're Mr. Cranky Pants, it will make Tech's life a little more pleasant. The other aspect is that SCCA needs to be more customer focused if we want our club to stick around, which goes back to point one.

On Edit - Andy beat me to the why it's different. I totally agree. Bet there are some ITA Miatas who are not aware of this too.

[Greg Amy]

Hah! Thanks, Steph. But I you know what? I think Andy Bettencourt and Jeff Lawton (both drivers of 1.8L ITA Miatas) may actually be on to something:

Miatas are "special", and deserve "special" treatment, "special" hand holding.

Why else would the two of them suggest that these Fastrack rules changes are so special and so unique that they're deserving of special handling at Registration (and/or Tech and the bathroom)? I've not noticed either of them request posting of June Fastrack weight changes for Formula Atlantic, the ITS Nissan 240SX, or HP MGB, or changes in Touring 1 and 2. Have you?

Maybe they know something about Miata drivers that we don't...?

Mr Cranky Pants, who's having WAY WAY too much fun with this, and wondering if maybe someone's feelings got a little butt-hurt with recent rules changes and is feeling sorry for them self... ;)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Mr Cranky Pants, who's having WAY WAY too much fun with this, and wondering if maybe someone's feelings got a little butt-hurt with recent rules changes and is feeling sorry for them self... ;)

Yup, felt SO sorry for myself that I ran the weight at a race I didn't even need to.

And if you don't see the difference between a group of casual double-dippers who create a nice little cash-pile for the Regions who may or may not track out-of class mid-season rule updates via the web, and singular-primary-class entries, I can't help you.

Again, it's about a group of guys who could have easily missed the change. Why not make an effort to help them? Well, it's obvious why.

It's a farking CLUB. :rolleyes: Ridiculous is right.

[Greg Amy]

And if you don't see the difference between a group of casual double-dippers who create a nice little cash-pile for the Regions who may or may not track out-or class mid-season rule updates via the web, and singular-primary-class entries, I can't help you.
Then you can't "help" me. But I'm pretty confident your competitors can help themselves. Or are you suggesting that people who double-dip in other classes should not be held to the same standard of knowing the regs as they would in their own "base" class? Or does that apply only to "special" Miata double-dippers "who create cash piles"? Maybe we can get the Region to provide an air-conditioned executive suite/tent just for them, and allow them to bypass Tech inspection entirely...?

They're adults, Andy, and we hold them to adult standards. Even the Miata drivers. Well, most of them, anyway...


Why not make an effort to help them?We already do: we "post" the monthly regulation changes on "The Internet" in a common "format" for you to "download" and read. You can even receive "email" when they're posted - with "hyperlinks" to select to "download" them.

GA, finding much entertainment in "unselfish" concern for regulation changes that affect Miatas -- yet none for anyone else...probably just coincidence.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Then you can't "help" me. But I'm pretty confident your competitors can help themselves. Or are you suggesting that people who double-dip in other classes should not be held to the same standard of knowing the regs as they would in their own "base" class? Or does that apply only to "special" Miata double-dippers "who create cash piles"? Maybe we can get the Region to provide an air-conditioned executive suite/tent just for them, and allow them to bypass Tech inspection entirely...?

They're adults, Andy, and we hold them to adult standards. Even the Miata drivers. Well, most of them, anyway...

We already do: we "post" the monthly regulation changes on "The Internet" in a common "format" for you to "download" and read. You can even receive "email" when they're posted - with "hyperlinks" to select to "download" them.

GA, finding much entertainment in "unselfish" concern for regulation changes that affect Miatas -- yet none for anyone else...probably just coincidence.

I'm just suggesting that we mention to a group of fellow friends, racers and members that they might have missed a weight increase on a class, that they may or may not pay the utmost attention to, in which they are double dipping to maximize value and fun.

It's that simple. You want to hard line it or think it's some sort of Miata issue, go ahead.

[mossaidis]

I wonder who will have the last word... the thread keeps going and going and going...

[gran racing]

I've not noticed either of them request posting of June Fastrack weight changes for Formula Atlantic, the ITS Nissan 240SX, or HP MGB, or changes in Touring 1 and 2. Have you?

I actually think that would be a nice idea. If there's been a mid-year weight change, it wouldn't be horrible to do.

As more and more regions transition to Motorsports Reg, there's no reason when a competitor selects a class when registering for a class where a weight has changed, a message could pop up with the notification. The database collects the class and vehicle make anyways.

[Seabee]

Looking through all this all I read is there may be a special bathroom for 1.8L Miata drivers. That is so cool.

I must admit I do have issues trying to download the Fastrack info with my web browser. Jeff helped with the info on this. So I do think he is special.

[Ed Funk]

Speakin' of special Me-otters, heard there was a fast one with a Pro driver at LRP on Tuesday!? Mid 1's?! Wow!

[StephF]

Looking through all this all I read is there may be a special bathroom for 1.8L Miata drivers. That is so cool.

I must admit I do have issues trying to download the Fastrack info with my web browser. Jeff helped with the info on this. So I do think he is special.

That's where the notice can go!

[Ed Funk]

[QUOTE=Seabee;

I must admit I do have issues trying to download the Fastrack info with my web browser. Jeff helped with the info on this. So I do think he is special.[/QUOTE]

I think Jeff may be "avaiable" Friday evening.

[vicktorvolpe]

Speakin' of special Me-otters, heard there was a fast one with a Pro driver at LRP on Tuesday!? Mid 1's?! Wow!

I think there was a fast guy in the 1's, but I don't think he was a pro.

I also know it wasn't me. I was super slow.....stupid iracing in the mx-5 cup car threw all my timing off.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Hoosiers + great suspension + 125whp @ 2350-2400lbs is damn near an ITA car now by the numbers.

I expect to duplicate my 1:00.8 at the NARRC runoffs.

[0100]

Will I be able to get into the track before 6pm today?

[ner88]

LRP does generaly let folks in but if it gets closer to registration time, they may make you wait.

[Magical Trevor]

Also, the track is indifferent about pets on SCCA weekends.

Interesting read! I may be helping Brian out tonight.

[BruceG]

Also, the track is indifferent about pets on SCCA weekends.

Interesting read! I may be helping Brian out tonight.

Nothing like an overheated, panicked dog to run out on to the track during a race...why won't folks learn not to bring pets to the track?.........yeeeeeeeeeesh!!

[gran racing]

Yeah, pretty much every dog l've seen seem to be having a rough weekend in air conditioned campers, getting lots of attention, and pampering.

Instead, kids and most adults including drivers should be banned from the paddock. Now that's where the risk comes into play!

[raffaelli]

Will I be able to get into the track before 6pm today?


I was at the track at 11am today and dropped my junk off, no problem.

[raffaelli]

Seems like there time for one qualifier tomorrow. I saw an email for workers that mentioned two qualifiers. Que pasa?

[Greg Amy]

Seems like there time for one qualifier tomorrow. I saw an email for workers that mentioned two qualifiers. Que pasa?
Supplementary Regs (http://www.ner.org/sites/ner.org/files/June%202012%20LRP%20Regional%20Supps_0.pdf) indicate one qualifier tomorrow; I've not heard anything otherwise. Don't forget there's a school group interspersed between the Regional quallies, so I see no way for them to run two.

Double dip, it's cheap. You can run FP, STU, or STL in your ITA config. $180 (?) more for twice the track time? A bargain. There's 4 spots left in Group 8 (STU/STL), better hurry... - GA

[raffaelli]

Thank Greg, after seeing that email then reading the words "sessions", it make me wonder.

I would love to double dip. Maybe next time, not in the cards for me this weekend.

[georgethefierce]

I don't know anything about the miata stuff but I was told that no dogs at LRP even for SCCA weekends....I was also told that they haven't kicked any dogs out that may have made it through the gate wink wink, nudge nudge.

[mossaidis]

there were dogs all over LRP this weekend... no one said a word.

[Andy Bettencourt]

there were dogs all over LRP this weekend... no one said a word.

Girls, pets or the ITA qual times?

:)

Be safe out there!

[mossaidis]

the last two... :) The track was slow yesterday afternoon. 2nd through 11th place are all 1.04's and all within .7 of each other. Should be interesting... currently, Frederick is leading the pack in high 1:03's. i am not sure about the track this am, though it is raining lightly off/on.

[Jeremy Billiel]

And? How did it go today? Who won what?

[JLawton]

Had the most fun at a race in a long time. Fun racing and fun hanging with the ITA and IT7 buds. And no one hit me!! Although Abhi tried several times!! ;) (I'm kidding!)

I'll do more of a report tomorrow. Too tired tonight................

Lots of destroyed cars in the Miata classes. Very unfortunate.............

[gran racing]

Totally curious... Which Miata classes? How was group 8?

[Magical Trevor]

Groups 2 and 8, Dave. I was working the station adjacent to turn-in for the Lefthander, and the segment of track before us was today's hot spot. Tom Capizzi's right side bounced off of the guardrail here after an intense fight for the top 3 spots (among Dylan Murcott and Ralle Rookey) in the morning SM race. Rookey was recovering from a brief trip through the dirt after a tough move on the outside in Big Bend; in recovery, he connected with Tom who didn't have much of anywhere to go. Of course, the Flatout guys had the car mostly in shape for its five remaining races.

On lap 2 of the afternoon SM race, the fourth place car of David Hirsch was turned sideways by the nose of Robert Karl, Jr. along/past the second apex of Big Bend (Station 3) ahead of a storming pack of 25 or so. With quick lockup he came to a predictable stop, albeit sideways across the track just a car width from the left edge at trackout; inevitably, the oncoming traffic fanned big time and Dan Moen's left front found the trailing edge of Dave's passenger door and RR wheel. This left two cars stationary across 75% of the track forming a pocket of sorts; Hirsch's passenger side, Moen's driver's. Unfortunately, Steven Berry hit Dan's car pretty square causing some extensive damage to both rides, and Rich Bennett folded up Dan's left rear quarter but was able to limp into the paddock. All were okay to my knowledge.

Group 8's morning run was issue-free (applause for the largest group of the weekend), but the afternoon race hadn't even started when Kim Estep's right front fender and tie rod were damaged as a result of an aggressive "splitting the Red Sea" move by Karl Jr. at the start/finish line which also spun a silver No. 55 who was able to continue.

Mike's weekend was pretty smooth, once Timing and Scoring knew who he was!

The morning races for all groups were nerve-wracking with very brief, very light, but very effective intermittent showers panicking drivers right at the 3 minute call of seemingly every grid. I'd say the only truly wet race was for Group 8. All the afternoon sessions were dry however, with a bit of sun even shining through. The hillsides hosted perhaps 150 spectators or so.

IT7: Norm Latulippe (Sweep, but the race to watch was for fourth between Dick Patullo and JB Swan! JB took it with 2 laps to go on both races)
ITA: Steven Frederick (AM), Brian Blizzard (PM - Chris Raffaelli well in the hunt for both races, completing the podiums)
ITB: Travis Washay (Sweep, but Rick Benazic right behind both times. Nat Wentworth blew up on Friday, and Paul Curran was on a backup motor after doing the same in Tuesday's test)
ITE: Chuck Fernandez (Sweep, but an impressive runner-up and fourth overall from a Mr. Hawke in an E46 M3 in the afternoon, which was the only session he ran all weekend!)
ITR: Doc Bro (Sweep, but mixing it up with the ITS frontrunners all day)
ITS: Glenn Lawton (Sweep, but impressive runs from Tim Dugan in the new Corrado)
SM: Dylan Murcott (Sweep)
SM2: Jimmy Locke (Sweep)
SSM: Can't remember
STU: Anthony Kalkandis (Morning), Chris Jurkiewicz (Afternoon - also won overall, and a bit of a battle with a new STL racer in a Red #11 CRX who only ran today)
STL Morning: Can't remember

All off the top of my head, sorry if there are errors.

[StephenB]

Glen Lawton took the ITS wins. Matt took second and a fifth after an off attempting a pass on Tim. we were wishing for rain cuz I don't think anyone had anything for that Corrado in the wet. I will be honest, I never expected that corrado to be first overall ever let alone this weekend! Tim estes got a third and new paint job in anawesome race with Dugan! I hope Dugan posts some of his videos:)

Very sad I didn't run the Audi in ITB to challenge John V in his Audi which looks awesome and appearsto be sorted!

Stephen

thoughts and prayers for the young driver in the formula car.

[lawtonglenn]

...

thoughts and prayers for the young driver in the formula car.


+1, anybody have any news on him?

[RSTPerformance]

Last couple weekends were a bit of a reality check for me...

1) This sport is dangerous and if you are shortcutting on safety equipment you should re-think things.

2) if you think you are in a safe spot you are not... Especially if you spun into that spot! If you got to that spot so can't someone else! I saw two SRF drivers end up in the wall on the outside of the downhill today... I was surprised to see these seasoned drivers got out of the cars prior to anyone responding. Please remember the safest place for you is in your seat WITH you belts and helmet on until someone responds and says/singles it's safe to get out!

As for the formula car that crashed Friday into the end of the pit wall... Rumor only is that he is in his early/mid 30's and is in a coma with a head injury. Way to young, keep him in your prayers for a healthy recovery.

Raymond

[Greg Amy]

Yeah, we were busy in Tech writing up a few cars this weekend...in addition to said Miatae we also had a Spec Racer with a derange front end, a couple of other broken formulae, a FB with a pretty impressive engine compartment fire, and unfortunately our very own Joe Stadtleman's ITS 944 had a broken-fuel-line-fed engine compartment fire in the paddock next to Tech on the way to the grid Saturday AM.

Most importantly, none of the above was injured, just reduced in personal net worth and discretionary time. That we can live with.

But for the FF driver - I did not see the incident unfold - word is he spun coming off the Downhill and did the classic spin-to-the-inside, T-boned the pit entrance wall, then slammed into the inside pit wall Jersey barrier, which has no tires facing it. Judy in grid - a nurse - was first on the scene and called for support "stat", and then a doctor/racer who was on the grid arrived immediately after. They stabilized the driver, back-boarded him out of the car, and then transported him to medical facilities in NYS (Middleton?).

The state of CT got involved in the investigation, and after Tech and the track management released the car, it was transported to a State Police-approved garage off site for "investigation".

I personally spoke to a friend of the family yesterday morning as he was picking up parts from the Goodyear guys, and he told me that the driver was in an intentionally-induced coma, and he said something to the effect that there was no obvious physical trauma, no evidence from CT scans that his condition was worsening, and that they're hoping for his condition to improve to the point there they can relocate him to a Connecticut hospital near home (they're from Middlefield CT). I don't have any more details, but all indications I got from various persons are that the prognosis is optimistic.

This was just one of those freak accidents that you can't accommodate 100% for, but it certainly puts our hobby into perspective. Like Judy said to me as we all tail-gated at Kenny's truck, drinking beer and wine and enjoying the company of our racing community, "this kind of stuff isn't what we all sign up for when we decide to participate in this hobby...."

GA

[RSTPerformance]

Thanks for the update Greg... If you talk to the family again please let them know we are all thinking of them and praying for a healthy and as speedy as possible recovery.

On another note... I am so happy Tim got the Corrado going as well as he did on it's second outing!!! I think it will be a fun car in ITS trim... Let it rain!!!

Raymond

[Greg Amy]

One other note: I had several side conversations with drivers unhappy with their fellow competitors' driving. Most of the complaints centered around "chopping" noses at the turns, not leaving racing room, racing courtesy stuff.

My advice to each of these was to take advantage of the driver's advisory service, where you can talk to the chief steward, have the other driver called up to the tower, and the two of you can discuss the situation in a closed-door room with a steward as mediator. It is an informal system, no paperwork or protest required, and it's an effective way to clear the air and hash out your disagreements with no risk of formal sanction.

I personally find the advisory service to be easier to deal with and FAR more effective than simply walking over to a paddock space and hashing it out. First, you never know what kind of attitude you'll get from the other driver, so it's nice to have a steward present; second, meeting in "neutral territory" minimizes risks of subsequent conflict; third, talking in a formal setting in front of a white shirt tends to dampen the emotions overall; fourth, a white shirt can (and probably will) offer an unbiased indication of how things would have gone had you tossed formal paper at the guy, with no financial and sanction risk to either of you.

Note that none of this discussion, regardless how it comes out, will go on anyone's driving record, so if it's a really egregious situation then you may prefer a driver protest where the result is formally on the record (points will be added to the driver's record so if it happens again, they accrue to further sanction). But if all you want to do is toss a warning flag across the other person's brain, let them know they're not playing in the sandbox nicely, then this service is appropriate to let them know that if they continue this behavior then formal action will eventually follow.

The driver's advisory service is free, it's easy, and you should use it.

GA

[BruceG]

Yeah, we were busy in Tech writing up a few cars this weekend...in addition to said Miatae we also had a Spec Racer with a derange front end, a couple of other broken formulae, a FB with a pretty impressive engine compartment fire, and unfortunately our very own Joe Stadtleman's ITS 944 had a broken-fuel-line-fed engine compartment fire in the paddock next to Tech on the way to the grid Saturday AM.

Most importantly, none of the above was injured, just reduced in personal net worth and discretionary time. That we can live with.

But for the FF driver - I did not see the incident unfold - word is he spun coming off the Downhill and did the classic spin-to-the-inside, T-boned the pit entrance wall, then slammed into the inside pit wall Jersey barrier, which has no tires facing it. Judy in grid - a nurse - was first on the scene and called for support "stat", and then a doctor/racer who was on the grid arrived immediately after. They stabilized the driver, back-boarded him out of the car, and then transported him to medical facilities in NYS (Middleton?).

The state of CT got involved in the investigation, and after Tech and the track management released the car, it was transported to a State Police-approved garage off site for "investigation".

I personally spoke to a friend of the family yesterday morning as he was picking up parts from the Goodyear guys, and he told me that the driver was in an intentionally-induced coma, and he said something to the effect that there was no obvious physical trauma, no evidence from CT scans that his condition was worsening, and that they're hoping for his condition to improve to the point there they can relocate him to a Connecticut hospital near home (they're from Middlefield CT). I don't have any more details, but all indications I got from various persons are that the prognosis is optimistic.

This was just one of those freak accidents that you can't accommodate 100% for, but it certainly puts our hobby into perspective. Like Judy said to me as we all tail-gated at Kenny's truck, drinking beer and wine and enjoying the company of our racing community, "this kind of stuff isn't what we all sign up for when we decide to participate in this hobby...."

GA

The only thing Greg forgot to mention was what a great job he and the others in tech did over the weekend with limited manpower!!

BTW...I spoke with Mike Rand(the FF winner all weekend) and he mentioned that the young FF driver injured fri came under the bridge on to the front straight and was confronted with a very slow moving car in front of him, got on the brakes and....we know the net result!

[BruceG]

One other note: I had several side conversations with drivers unhappy with their fellow competitors' driving. Most of the complaints centered around "chopping" noses at the turns, not leaving racing room, racing courtesy stuff.

My advice to each of these was to take advantage of the driver's advisory service, where you can talk to the chief steward, have the other driver called up to the tower, and the two of you can discuss the situation in a closed-door room with a steward as mediator. It is an informal system, no paperwork or protest required, and it's an effective way to clear the air and hash out your disagreements with no risk of formal sanction.

I personally find the advisory service to be easier to deal with and FAR more effective than simply walking over to a paddock space and hashing it out. First, you never know what kind of attitude you'll get from the other driver, so it's nice to have a steward present; second, meeting in "neutral territory" minimizes risks of subsequent conflict; third, talking in a formal setting in front of a white shirt tends to dampen the emotions overall; fourth, a white shirt can (and probably will) offer an unbiased indication of how things would have gone had you tossed formal paper at the guy, with no financial and sanction risk to either of you.

Note that none of this discussion, regardless how it comes out, will go on anyone's driving record, so if it's a really egregious situation then you may prefer a driver protest where the result is formally on the record (points will be added to the driver's record so if it happens again, they accrue to further sanction). But if all you want to do is toss a warning flag across the other person's brain, let them know they're not playing in the sandbox nicely, then this service is appropriate to let them know that if they continue this behavior then formal action will eventually follow.

The driver's advisory service is free, it's easy, and you should use it.

GA

Great info. I spoke with several IT7 racers after their last race yesterday. Several years ago when I had my yellow it7 12a, I got popped from behind at track out on the start of the front straight by a certain silver BMW Z3 from CT. I was sp far left that my left wheels were touching the grass. Said Z3 came up behind me and broke my rear tail lights. Station 11 recorded the incident. Seems like on Sat and at other times, most of the IT7 drivers have had similar experiences with the same driver. The Z3 racer has never offered any explanation for the incidents to the other racers involved.
This would be a great forum to experience concerns!
Thanks for the info, Greg.

[Tim Dugan]

i want to start off by saying thanks to raymond a stephen for helping this weekend! And just being them telling me what im doing wrong which maid the battle with Tim Estes a lot more fun! Thanks Tim for making the race one of the best races ive had. Thanks to all the workers that made this weeknd happen. my thoughts and prayers to the driver and his family hope for a speedy recovery get back to the track and start racing again! I will be talking about this weekend for a very long time!

[tims90rx7]

Tim, the racing with you yesterday was the reason I returned to racing. Close, fair and fun. Good to see such competitive times in ITS. Hope that it will continue throughout the season.

My thoughts go out to the injured driver as well. As I was picking up the great mug for my third place finish I was reminded of what we are really racing for...

[dazzlesa]

Thanks Greg on the info.
I would like to be on the same page with my fellow driver and it sounds like the right place to get the clarification that the other driver or I need so we play nice in the sand box we are lucky enough to use.
Now where can I find the 2 tenths to break that damn track record?.......lol

[moto62]

Sooo where do I find pics/vids from the weekend? We had a great time. Nice to see everyone in person and met some other folks as well. We will try to come out to more events. When I came to the track on Fri, I was still in the 'f' this mode. Lots of monies spent, using the very little free time I have to get the car ready, knuckles busted, failing knees, and aching back and such. It took till the end of the race to realize that this is way too much fun to stop now. Definately worth it in the end.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2011/08/06/lens182376911311936679megustameme_1.jpg

[mossaidis]

^ sweet! Videos forthcoming. I can only post the pm race to vimeo today, since I reached my weekly upload limit. I will have the qualrace uploaded by tuesday when the counter resets.

[vicktorvolpe]

Here is the video from the spec miata incident coming out of big bend during the spec miata race that collected four cars. Not great. Lex got the pictures too....she was standing right there with the camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-X2776EujQ&list=UU6-Wpr0PYvfUdC8l_L6IhWg&index=1&feature=plcp

[Ed Funk]

Anyone with video or an opinion to express about the issue at the start of the pm race for group 4? Ryan and I got together, he spun, I t-boned him, everyone else apparently got through it. I parked, he finished with some significant positive camber on left rear. Our opinions vary as to who moved into whom...help.

[mossaidis]

Grp 6 - ITA/7, race video is up.

https://vimeo.com/43795026

[JLawton]

Grp 6 - ITA/7, race video is up.

https://vimeo.com/43795026


Nice job! Glad you shook off the first race and got your head back in the game. It was nice to see you let Ray by. I like to see that sort of respect in our group. Plus, Ray knows his way around LRP (including the birms coming out of the Left Hander) and not a bad guy to follow. It was obvious you picked up your pace when you were following him.

Katie had a rough start. Bounced of Lou going into the Left Hander then came down on Grant at the apex........

So..... are you going to show the start of the first race?? :D

In all seriousness it is probably a good thing to show to remind people............

[Greg Amy]

So..... are you going to show the start of the first race?? :D
Oh-Em-Gee, freakin' hilarious.

So Mickey grids around 11th(?) for the start of Sunday morning's race. As the ITA field is coming down the Hill they're a bit ratty, engines revs start to build and a couple guys (Lawton. Abhi.) step out of line. Starter vigorously shakes his head back and forth: no start!

Suddenly this little red hatchback Honda with a "Kill 'Em All" Hinomaru sunrise on the side comes rocketing up through the middle of the field, screaming up through the revs, and dives into Turn One, leaving a very confused ITA field in his wake.

Um, Mickey, did you hit the nitrous button? Or maybe - just maybe - the start was a wave-off??

"Hey, I couldn't see the starter! 'Course, I didn't see a green flag, either; all I heard was the engines revving up!"

Indeed.

Mickey -- and Lawton and Abhi; go Team Kessler! -- got to visit with the stewards after that session. Mickey got left behind after the other two were released for an even longer "discussion."

Absolutely hilarious. Wish I had video from the outside on that one.

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Great to hear everyone had a nice weekend and the bumps and bruises to the cars were kept to a minimum. So mad I missed Ray Ray. See ya'll at the Runoffs!

[Seabee]

I am working on video for the first race. Getting song rights from Toni Basil.

The red Honda flash is going ACL surgery so that may have been to cause of the stuck throttle.
Blizzard get the hole shot award and I will put those together too.

The 1.8L ITA toilet was a great idea.

Billzard and I raced hard all weekend but never had to touch each other. And race two had 3 manufacturers battling it out.

[JLawton]

couple guys (Lawton. Abhi.) step out of line.


Yeah, they got that one wrong. I was fairly certain it wasn't me but had to look at the video to be sure. It was obvious that when we were talked to, all that was provide were the car numbers. We were told we all had improved our position........ hmmmmmm. I was directly behind the guy in front of me the whole time...... and when they checked our transponders to see how we stacked up as we crossed the loop, we were all in the right place.......... I fully understand it was a mess, all the Miata's look the same and the person having the chat didn't actually SEE the incidents. I'll post video and let the peanut gallery decide.

[Drew M]

Whoever was in that red #19 miata made a great move to the inside of big bend to take a few positions on the restart (or the lap after). Those 3 had a great battle going all race.

[raffaelli]

Grp 6 - ITA/7, race video is up.

https://vimeo.com/43795026


Mickey blew past like a blur, didn't see him again till he parked outside Big Bend waiting for everyone to catch up!

[raffaelli]

Billzard and I raced hard all weekend but never had to touch each other. And race two had 3 manufacturers battling it out.

It was fun watching, from third, you guys battle in the morning and even better to be in the mix in the afternoon!

[mossaidis]

Nothing like a double reprimand weekend... first ever, hopefully last.

Yeah, defintely "good times". Kathy Barnes warned me, "this will be like detention". I responded, "... I need some detention". 3 races, 3 front left fender racing incidents over two race weekends. All of them involving my friends and Kessler clients. Who's next?!?!? (joke) I am hoping that bad things happen in threes and so I should be done with any more incidents - they make me feel horrible.

Here's the morning qual race in semi-wet conditions. I tried passing Denise on the inside of uphill, decided to change my mind for a few reasons, I was off-line, I broke and easily locked them up...bang, rats. The surface was slick enough not to cause any flat spots (some positive in that).

https://vimeo.com/43791137

During my discussion with the Asst Cheif Steward, I voluntarily doubled my penalty from 1 loss in class to 2 (5 in grid) in order to help my conscience and Denise's grid position.

Lawton, as far as the start goes, I think I have the orginal video. If I do, I will edit and post for education proposes as well as some good "ball busting".

The afternoon race video I posted earlier shows the "incident" between a SM and two IT7's... it's sometimes easier not to realize how we can screw things up for others and vice versa. Hopefully drivers can reflect, be honest with themselves and others about what happened. Shake hands and make sure it does not happen again. If anything, ask for help - there's something we can learn from others.

[mossaidis]

Nice job! Glad you shook off the first race and got your head back in the game. It was nice to see you let Ray by. I like to see that sort of respect in our group. Plus, Ray knows his way around LRP (including the birms coming out of the Left Hander) and not a bad guy to follow. It was obvious you picked up your pace when you were following him.

That was definitely a highlight of the weekend. After Ray passed me, I ran a 1:03.2 which was the fastest time of anyone in the afternoon race. Ray and I were closing in on you, Abhi and that red me-otter. I wish we had 5 more laps... :D

In the after math and just I was going to sleep sat night, the evil part of brain was telling me that I could have passed folks in the left/right hander and no name w/o incidents. That's the evil part that's gotten me into trouble before, though it sucks to just lift when I am closing in on someone's bumper. Argh.

Ok, back to being constructive. Like you said here earlier, need to lose 2 more seconds off our LRP times by end of September...

[JLawton]

And after looking at my video from race #1, and finding the blue paint on my right front bumper, I realized how Chris got by me in the Left Hander!!!

[JLawton]

in regards to the incident with Denise, It's hard to tell from one camera and from that angle it looks like a) she didn't realize you were there, or b) if she did know you were there she should have given you racing room. It "looks" like you were at least up to her door......... but it's easy being the Sunday afternoon quarter back..........

[Jeremy Billiel]

Nothing like a double reprimand weekend... first ever, hopefully last.

Yeah, defintely "good times". Kathy Barnes warned me, "this will be like detention". I responded, "... I need some detention". 3 races, 3 front left fender racing incidents over two race weekends. All of them involving my friends and Kessler clients. Who's next?!?!? (joke) I am hoping that bad things happen in threes and so I should be done with any more incidents - they make me feel horrible.

Here's the morning qual race in semi-wet conditions. I tried passing Denise on the inside of uphill, decided to change my mind for a few reasons, I was off-line, I broke and easily locked them up...bang, rats. The surface was slick enough not to cause any flat spots (some positive in that).

https://vimeo.com/43791137

During my discussion with the Asst Cheif Steward, I voluntarily doubled my penalty from 1 loss in class to 2 (5 in grid) in order to help my conscience and Denise's grid position.

Lawton, as far as the start goes, I think I have the orginal video. If I do, I will edit and post for education proposes as well as some good "ball busting".

The afternoon race video I posted earlier shows the "incident" between a SM and two IT7's... it's sometimes easier not to realize how we can screw things up for others and vice versa. Hopefully drivers can reflect, be honest with themselves and others about what happened. Shake hands and make sure it does not happen again. If anything, ask for help - there's something we can learn from others.

WAIT... Barnes repremenaded you twice and you are still alive to speak? :D

[Andy Bettencourt]

in regards to the incident with Denise, It's hard to tell from one camera and from that angle it looks like a) she didn't realize you were there, or b) if she did know you were there she should have given you racing room. It "looks" like you were at least up to her door......... but it's easy being the Sunday afternoon quarter back..........

I'll take the ball!

It 'looks' to me like there would have been enough room for both if Micky hadn't locked them up. You can see and hear that happen and he can't hold his line which is where I think the contact occurs. And at that point I really feel like Micky's body language then says it all...very apologetic inside the car with the two hands together and the 'bow'...and he is beating himself up for another half a lap with the 'dang it' hand motions...

Who else wants a shot! :)

[wepsbee]

in regards to the incident with Denise, It's hard to tell from one camera and from that angle it looks like a) she didn't realize you were there, or b) if she did know you were there she should have given you racing room. It "looks" like you were at least up to her door......... but it's easy being the Sunday afternoon quarter back..........
Mickey has spoken on this issue a number of times and I respect him even more as a
racer for it and the position he has taken. However Denise was "touched" in the right rear corner panel right at the junction of the forward portion of the wheel and the
beginning of the panel. No where near up to at least the door where one would normally give another more racing room notably at the apex of the up hill turn. If racing room was given for every car approaching your rear wheel, especially in a turn, you would be giving quarter all the time. A race start would be a madhouse of
people checking up to allow the car behind you racing room. An obviously faster car
would most likely choose a more appropriate place to pass. Back straight to the uphill
is always a busy and dangerous spot even when you are by yourself.

[JLawton]

I'll take the ball!

It 'looks' to me like there would have been enough room for both if Micky hadn't locked them up. You can see and hear that happen and he can't hold his line which is where I think the contact occurs. And at that point I really feel like Micky's body language then says it all...very apologetic inside the car with the two hands together and the 'bow'...and he is beating himself up for another half a lap with the 'dang it' hand motions...

Who else wants a shot! :)

I didn't have the sound turned up (I am watching it at work!! :D) so I missed that he locked up his brakes. I'll watch it again when I get home


Mickey has spoken on this issue a number of times and I respect him even more as a
racer for it and the position he has taken. However Denise was "touched" in the right rear corner panel right at the junction of the forward portion of the wheel and the
beginning of the panel. No where near up to at least the door where one would normally give another more racing room notably at the apex of the up hill turn. If racing room was given for every car approaching your rear wheel, especially in a turn, you would be giving quarter all the time. A race start would be a madhouse of
people checking up to allow the car behind you racing room. An obviously faster car
would most likely choose a more appropriate place to pass. Back straight to the uphill
is always a busy and dangerous spot even when you are by yourself.

As i said Dan, it's difficult to make any sort of definitive conclusion from that angle.

A side note about giving racing room when someone is at your rear quarter panel......... There really is no hard and fast rule in the GCR on who OWNS a corner (Greg has spoken several times about this). I always say it takes two to tango. in other words, if a car is only up to the rear quarter panel it's OK to come down on them??? Yes........ you might be in the "right" when sitting in front of the steward after the race with a bent up car............ but was it worth it to be "right"? Wouldn't it be better to give some room and finish the race with a car in one piece? Unless a driver is much better, the chances of him making that sort of pass "stick" when he's only up to your rear quarter and you leave him room are not that good. And the chances of the front car getting the worst out of the incident are fairly high. You have to remember that you have the biggest blind spot on your right side. It's sometimes difficult to see how far up the other car is. You usually have to judge the fact that he disappeared from your rear view mirror and what his closing speed was.

I'm not going to take that chance. When presented with that situation I will leave room every time. The only time I can remember being spun in a corner (twice) were from guys who over estimated their braking skills. (watch Andy pull some obscure video from one of my earlier races that says other wise........ :p ) In fact, i think I remember losing a race in the last lap on the last corner because I didn't want to chop someone. I came in second......... but better than coming in last wth a bent up car.

This isn't a discussion about this specific incident, just a comment to your comment. One of the discussions that creates dialog that we can all learn from. And I'm not saying I'm right. That's just my personal feelings.


On Edit: And I'm certainly NOT saying that Mickey was an idiot for trying to pull that off!! Lord knows I ain't sayin' that!!! (from the guy who was the benefactor of his last optimistic braking manuver :D )

[dickita15]

I came in second......... but better than coming in last wth a bent up car.



Cough, cough, pussy :D
Seriously that is a close one to call. The dent is behind the door but if Mickey had not braked so hard it might have been farther up but could he have held the car that tight or did she not leave enough room.
Like I said tough call.

But then again everyone like Denise and everyone is talking about Mickey recently be judgment challenged so I say let’s throw Mickey under the bus.

[dazzlesa]

For me and my 2 races I was a quicker through the corners and just not quick enough to pull pass Travis on the straights. From my point of view Travis decided to defend every corner because he was the lead car. sure it's his right to pick his line, but his confidence that I was not "goin for it" is foolish to me. It's a recipe for wrecked race cars. He does not how stupid I might be. Also if We both feel we earned the right for the same piece of real estate there is going to be a wreck. I have passed many a car on the up hill with people being attentive to me being there. There is room in the corner for 2 cars. I thought we were done twice when he went to the apex with me there. No matter what ,he was "going big" on the uphill.
I respect his ability as a driver and he drove amazing and congrats on his wins.
I just think coming over with out concern for other cars is going to wreck cars sooner or latter and I think that leaving room as they wrote it in the rule book is intended to keep us from wrecking. I hope his decisions don't come back to cost him or someone else.
For me hitting the brakes or hopping curbs to avoid wrecking is frustrating at best, but at least my car is in one piece.
Please interject because it's smarter to do it here than out on the track

[mossaidis]

---->>>>>>>Cough, cough, pussy :D <<<<<<<<-------
Seriously that is a close one to call. The dent is behind the door but if Mickey had not braked so hard it might have been farther up but could he have held the car that tight or did she not leave enough room.
Like I said tough call.

But then again everyone likes Denise and since everyone is talking about Mickey recently being judgment challenged let’s throw Mickey under the bus.

My thoughts exactly :) Many of us have made passes going into/out of the uphill. On my part, the lapse in judgement was on trying to make a pass into a braking zone, offline when it was damp/slick. Again, I feel horrible for making contact Denise, Jeff and Ahbi. grrr....

[raffaelli]

And after looking at my video from race #1, and finding the blue paint on my right front bumper, I realized how Chris got by me in the Left Hander!!!

After watching my video and finding a white smudge my rear bumper.....it looks like there was a certain frustration level by an instructor getting passed by his student...on the outside no less..... :smilie_pokal:

[JLawton]

After watching my video and finding a white smudge my rear bumper.....it looks like there was a certain frustration level by an instructor getting passed by his student...on the outside no less..... :smilie_pokal:


Except the blue smudge was on my fender! Probably from said student cutting it a "little" too tight............. (video to follow) And yes, said student schooled the instuctor in the left hander. First time I've had anyone do that to me!!

[JLawton]

<sigh> sorry about the crappy quality............. And then I must have used that tape a few too many times because one of the previously recorded races comes through for a bit, missing the second start. It starts back up again in Big Bend, first lap. For the first 1/4 of the race I had Abhi glued to my bumper, hence the defensive lines...


https://vimeo.com/43867790


This is the start I got called for jumping........... You guys be the judge.......... I think they got me confused with another car.........

[Andy Bettencourt]

<sigh> sorry about the crappy quality............. And then I must have used that tape a few too many times because one of the previously recorded races comes through for a bit, missing the second start. It starts back up again in Big Bend, first lap. For the first 1/4 of the race I had Abhi glued to my bumper, hence the defensive lines...


https://vimeo.com/43867790


This is the start I got called for jumping........... You guys be the judge.......... I think they got me confused with another car.........

I would say they got the wrong car for sure, but I would have given you the penalty for having too much gap and no run if the green flag fell. :D

[BruceG]

Jeff....wasn't that Mickey(how you doin.....LOL)M. in the red Civic hatchback that blasted down thru the center at the start.

[gran racing]

Regarding Rick's comments, it surprises me that some people don't think forward to the fact that they will be racing with many of the same people again in the future. There's racing hard and then there's a lack of respect. They may have gained in one race, but eventually it'll come back to them. I know that I personally race people how they race me.

[lawtonglenn]

.

Here's a relatively uneventful video from the afternoon's ITR/ITS/ITB race...
first couple of laps dogging Doc Breault... then nothing interesting ... then
getting through some lapped traffic ... you can see Tim Dugan in the mirror for
a while... great races Tim!

http://vimeo.com/lawtonglenn/videos

at least now I can add two Lime Rock Flags to my wall of NHMS flags... those
were my first wins there and I'm still walking a foot off the ground! :D

.

[JLawton]

I would say they got the wrong car for sure, but I would have given you the penalty for having too much gap and no run if the green flag fell. :D

I was trying to keep up but was pinging it of the rev limiter in 2nd!! I hadn't seen a green so I wasn't going to go charging into turn 1.


Jeff....wasn't that Mickey(how you doin.....LOL)M. in the red Civic hatchback that blasted down thru the center at the start.

I'm not sure. He was going soooo fast I couldn't tell <smirk>


Regarding Rick's comments, it surprises me that some people don't think forward to the fact that they will be racing with many of the same people again in the future. There's racing hard and then there's a lack of respect. They may have gained in one race, but eventually it'll come back to them. I know that I personally race people how they race me.


Amen Brother Dave

I would much rather have the respect of my fellow racers (and friends), and finish races than pull off that one risky pass or chop the nose of another car. Like Dave says, I have a mental list of the people I trust and respect and those I am hesitant about and those I REALLY dont trust.......... If you want to know what list you're on, just PM me. I'll be honest with you and tell you why you're on that list............

Look at the list of drivers who are consistantly at the front, year after year and win championships. Usually they are the guys (and gals) who are respected, keep themselves out of trouble and finish races............ Feel free to disagree.......

[wepsbee]

I didn't have the sound turned up (I am watching it at work!! :D) so I missed that he locked up his brakes. I'll watch it again when I get home



As i said Dan, it's difficult to make any sort of definitive conclusion from that angle.

A side note about giving racing room when someone is at your rear quarter panel......... There really is no hard and fast rule in the GCR on who OWNS a corner (Greg has spoken several times about this). I always say it takes two to tango. in other words, if a car is only up to the rear quarter panel it's OK to come down on them??? Yes........ you might be in the "right" when sitting in front of the steward after the race with a bent up car............ but was it worth it to be "right"? Wouldn't it be better to give some room and finish the race with a car in one piece? Unless a driver is much better, the chances of him making that sort of pass "stick" when he's only up to your rear quarter and you leave him room are not that good. And the chances of the front car getting the worst out of the incident are fairly high. You have to remember that you have the biggest blind spot on your right side. It's sometimes difficult to see how far up the other car is. You usually have to judge the fact that he disappeared from your rear view mirror and what his closing speed was.

I'm not going to take that chance. When presented with that situation I will leave room every time. The only time I can remember being spun in a corner (twice) were from guys who over estimated their braking skills. (watch Andy pull some obscure video from one of my earlier races that says other wise........ :p ) In fact, i think I remember losing a race in the last lap on the last corner because I didn't want to chop someone. I came in second......... but better than coming in last wth a bent up car.

This isn't a discussion about this specific incident, just a comment to your comment. One of the discussions that creates dialog that we can all learn from. And I'm not saying I'm right. That's just my personal feelings.


On Edit: And I'm certainly NOT saying that Mickey was an idiot for trying to pull that off!! Lord knows I ain't sayin' that!!! (from the guy who was the benefactor of his last optimistic braking manuver :D )

I agree "kinda sorta". It would be a case by case basis to determine who was 'right" for any given incident but overall I cannot see giving up every corner just because someone is inside your rear quarter. You are , or were pre-Miata days, a type A driver. Aggressive but not dangerous. :rolleyes: This is how all good winning drivers have to be. In concept finishing the race with a non- bent car is preferable to the opposite. But I would imagine that if you give up at the corners everyone will quickly know this and you will become a target. I really do understand your viewpoint and agree mostly but this issue has always been a purely subjective and difficult to define. We know there are others who take this "keeping your line" to the nth degree and that will cause some bent up cars and cranky attitudes.

[Rabbit05]

I had a super fun weekend ! Seeing some old friends and meeting some new people. Not having raced Lime Rock since 2010 I was just hoping to knock some of the rust of me and the car.

Well I spent most of Friday dialing/setting up in the car before our afternoon qualifying run . (Tuns out my driveway is not a good place to align a car)..I still have a bit of work to do to catch up to Rick (honda) and Travis (vw) . Those guys are fast . . I qualified third ...and finished third in the first Sat. race and managed a best time for the weekend Saturday morning @ 1:03.9...quickest so far for me in the Audi. :D

Then I was late to the afternoon race...we were tooling around ..i was tinkering with and putting gas in the car. And I get " hey John ...2 laps left and your class is heading to the grid"....I said oh "sugar"...and threw my stuff on and hustled down only to not make the 5 min ...So I started D.F.L... I was so pissed at myself...as I was hoping to just see if I could keep up with Travis and Rick.... But I had a good run through the field and finished third. I had a blast over the weekend and I cant wait to get back out there.


I would like to thank again Steve and Ray Blethen , I had an off when i was on the track and I thought I had broke something, they came over on pit lane and looked over the car for me, shook it down and told me I was ok ...Thanks Guys !!!:happy204: :023::happy204:

-John

[wepsbee]

I also see that I am incorrect in the passing zone abilities as more drivers than I thought use that area to pass. I have only used the inside of the uphill when passing very slow school or slow lower class cars. I will not just blow that corner off anymore as unpassable and see what potential there is. I do admit to always trying to soak up more driving info when ever I can and do not even attempt to suggest I know all. But it is difficult at times to accumulate "knowledge" from so many different sources and compile it together as there are as many opinions as there are ways to do things. :)
I really do appreciate all the info from everyone.

[raffaelli]

Except the blue smudge was on my fender! Probably from said student cutting it a "little" too tight............. (video to follow) And yes, said student schooled the instuctor in the left hander. First time I've had anyone do that to me!!

Yeah, I need to improve on judging the position of an adjacent car when off my rear corners. I got it wrong a couple times in the that race. Sorry.

[Greg Amy]

So while we're doing all this hindsight thoughts, a few notes on Tech:

- Even though we were a bit short-handed at times, we tried to pull in every group at least twice and check a few basic, easy-to-do things. Restrictors plates, some weights, safety equipment, stickers, ride height, etc.

- Each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened so everyone could take a look.

- Even though each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened, it didn't seem like too many competitors were interested in looking at each others' cars. Everyone was too busy waving their hands around side-by-side and talking about their Last Great Pass.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the restrictor plate, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. This, as he was dropping his hood right after we released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the correct weight stickers on the car, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. Yup, this was as I released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- I did notice a couple of cars that had incorrect weight stickers on their cars. Pointed it out to them. We did not weigh those cars during that session and no one else noticed it. I honestly think that after all that hullabaloo above, not many people even bothered to look at other cars...

"Horse to water", folks. Gotta help yourself. We'll give you the opportunities, so you should take advantage of it.

GA

[georgethefierce]

Will you guys pass the hat to get Lawton (the goofy one in the miata) a new camera?

[Andy Bettencourt]

So while we're doing all this hindsight thoughts, a few notes on Tech:

- Even though we were a bit short-handed at times, we tried to pull in every group at least twice and check a few basic, easy-to-do things. Restrictors plates, some weights, safety equipment, stickers, ride height, etc.

- Each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened so everyone could take a look.

- Even though each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened, it didn't seem like too many competitors were interested in looking at each others' cars. Everyone was too busy waving their hands around side-by-side and talking about their Last Great Pass.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the restrictor plate, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. This, as he was dropping his hood right after we released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the correct weight stickers on the car, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. Yup, this was as I released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- I did notice a couple of cars that had incorrect weight stickers on their cars. Pointed it out to them. We did not weigh those cars during that session and no one else noticed it. I honestly think that after all that hullabaloo above, not many people even bothered to look at other cars...

"Horse to water", folks. Gotta help yourself. We'll give you the opportunities, so you should take advantage of it.

GA

New signs at Tech:

DON'T GET THE DEER EYES! Look, listen, learn.

:D

[almracing]

I think they got me confused with another car.........

Not sure about anyone else, but the Miatas all look the same to me! :D

[JeffYoung]

That's the way it should be done....nice job.


So while we're doing all this hindsight thoughts, a few notes on Tech:

- Even though we were a bit short-handed at times, we tried to pull in every group at least twice and check a few basic, easy-to-do things. Restrictors plates, some weights, safety equipment, stickers, ride height, etc.

- Each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened so everyone could take a look.

- Even though each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened, it didn't seem like too many competitors were interested in looking at each others' cars. Everyone was too busy waving their hands around side-by-side and talking about their Last Great Pass.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the restrictor plate, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. This, as he was dropping his hood right after we released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the correct weight stickers on the car, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. Yup, this was as I released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- I did notice a couple of cars that had incorrect weight stickers on their cars. Pointed it out to them. We did not weigh those cars during that session and no one else noticed it. I honestly think that after all that hullabaloo above, not many people even bothered to look at other cars...

"Horse to water", folks. Gotta help yourself. We'll give you the opportunities, so you should take advantage of it.

GA

[CRallo]

Holy crap Mickey!!!!!!!

That is all.

[lawtonglenn]

Will you guys pass the hat to get Lawton (the goofy one in the miata) a new camera?


thanks for that distinction George :D

( but does that make me the goofy one not in the miata? :shrug:)

.

[CRallo]

thanks for that distinction George :D

( but does that make me the goofy one not in the miata? :shrug:)

.

I'll take this one... Yes. :p

[Tim Dugan]

Thanks glenn for the honerable mention! WE did not expect the car to work as well as it did. Im very happy with the way it turned out. But where is the video of the morning session? I would like to see how my car looks from the back even if it was only for a couple of laps!:smilie_pokal: Now that i have rain tires i want it to rain so i can have a better chance for one of those flags u now have what? 38 of. Congrats on a job well done glenn i learned alot this weekend till we meet again

[lawtonglenn]

Tim...you will be very difficult to beat in the rain... sorry about the
am race video... camera charger plugged in all night to a wall socket that
was switched off :(

[StephenB]

in regards to the incident with Denise, It's hard to tell from one camera and from that angle it looks like a) she didn't realize you were there, or b) if she did know you were there she should have given you racing room. It "looks" like you were at least up to her door......... but it's easy being the Sunday afternoon quarter back..........

Mickey,

I watched the video and agree with Jeff on the angle part. Its tough to really say what you coulda/should done but I will share some feedback since you asked.

My first question for you to reflect on would be how far away from the car on the outside were you? To me it looks like you had a few feet between you and that car. IMHO to make an effective pass going THROUGH the uphill you and the other driver need to understand that you are going to go 2 wide through the turn. from the approach angle you appear to have made from your video it looks like you are trying to outbrake them into the turn rather than race side by side through the turn. I think it would have been almost impossible to do that which IMHO is why you locked up the tires trying to slow down. Next time try to stay a few inches away from the other car as you approach the turn, leaving htem just enough track that they may need. Taking this approach I think would have resulted in you being more visable to the other driver and "if" they still turned in it would have been more of a bump rather than a hit like that. rubbing I think would be way better than banging. I also think it would have allowed you to brake about the same time they didkeeping up your momentum and possibly kept you up beside them. With your line you are forced to brake earlier based on how tight you had made the turn become. I think you then could have stayed beside them and tried to carry speed up over the hill and past them. Rarely do cars of equal potential complete a pass INTO the uphill unless they started side by side going onto no name straight. I have gone side by side multiple laps with multiple people in that turn and usually completed the pass exiting the turn or even in west bend or later. Your "move" would have only worked if the other car backed off and let you through. which this is racing most of us are not programmed to do that! I think a better move like I tried to explain would have gotten you beside them at best but set you up for completing a pass later in the lap. Less be honest you are clearly faster through that section and you just needed to figure out a way to get up beside them, then passing would have been the easy part. At least from watching this video this is what I would have tried to do, especially given the "chop" a few laps earlier. (which I don't think was "wrong" on the other driver)

I would also recomend that next time you get in that type of situation stay focused! taking both hands of the wheel is a nice gesture but not really safe IMHO. You also waited a while before getting back on the gas. Keep in mind people coming from behind are still moving fast and the other car apeared to be blocking a large part of the track. Keep yourself safe and get going as fast as possible to avoid another contact from behind. I know it sucks to make a mistake and you want to say sorry right then but don't let it get worse by sticking around ;)

I hope I am not stepping on toes or offending you but you asked for feedback :)

Stephen

[JLawton]

Yeah, you can't out brake someone in the Up Hill....... it's a tap on the brakes?? How are you going to out brake someone in that situation? And some of the Miatas don't even hit the brakes there! You need to set the person up in the left hander then get a run on them out of the right hander. How far up on the other car you need to be to make it stick depends on who it is your passing. A friend you trust? The door. Anyone else? Side by side...... and if you're not you better be prepared to back out of it. just remember that outside wall is right on the edge of the track. You don't want to put the other car into it.......

The same with West Bend and somewhat with the Down Hill.

[gran racing]

I actually enjoy passing in the uphill, BUT as Jeff said it's about getting the run on out of the right hander. I also think it catches a lot of people off guard which is why the pass needs to be set-up well (other driver knows you've got them). If not, a little patience works.

Although watching the Integra's lines, I would have become a bit more tempted to stick it in there on some of the turns. (edit) I was totally a loser and stayed home; Sunday quarterback, knowing that it was damp, so that impacted the grippy line. :(

[Ed Funk]

. Totally loser stayed home quarterback and knowing that it was damp, so that impacted the grippy line. :(

Huh?

[gran racing]

Exactly! LOL Updated to actually kinda make sense.

[CRallo]

I actually enjoy passing in the uphill, BUT as Jess said...



something you guys want to tell us?

[Greg Amy]

Hey, did anyone come across a black "AJ Nealey Racing" ball cap? I may have left it in the Tech area, or possibly in the post-game "hospitality area" at the back of Kenny's truck... - GA

[BruceG]

Hey, did anyone come across a black "AJ Nealey Racing" ball cap? I may have left it in the Tech area, or possibly in the post-game "hospitality area" at the back of Kenny's truck... - GA

a guy came up to me and said his name was AJ Nealy.......you know the rest. seriously, try calling the track. they have a lost and found. Might be at medical, Greg.

[gran racing]

something you guys want to tell us?

Oh come on! Keep up with the times. Said guy buys an ITA Miata and automatically transforms from Jeff into Ms. Jess.

No more multitasking for me after a long day! LOL


or possibly in the post-game "hospitality area" at the back of Kenny's truck

Oh gesh. I'll let you guys have that one.

[StephenB]

Hey, did anyone come across a black "AJ Nealey Racing" ball cap? I may have left it in the Tech area, or possibly in the post-game "hospitality area" at the back of Kenny's truck... - GA

hmmm where did you sleep? you do know you stayed up well past that tailgating party... don't you? :)

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

you do know you stayed up well past that tailgating party... don't you?
I'll take your word on that... ;)

I was on the sofa in Mushnick's RV, he said he'd keep an eye out for it. We went from the worker party, to the tailgate, then cruised around to your paddock spot before we called it a night. I'm pretty sure I was wearing it through all that and then I couldn't find it Saturday, so the RV is the most likely candidate.

GA

[JLawton]

So Mickey, when are you gonna post up your video from the start of the first race?

[mossaidis]

I deleted w/o intent. This will have to do Jeff Lawton :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwsrTkiEOGs&feature=share

[mossaidis]

Mickey,

I watched the video and agree with Jeff on the angle part. Its tough to really say what you coulda/should done but I will share some feedback since you asked.

My first question for you to reflect on would be how far away from the car on the outside were you? To me it looks like you had a few feet between you and that car. IMHO to make an effective pass going THROUGH the uphill you and the other driver need to understand that you are going to go 2 wide through the turn. from the approach angle you appear to have made from your video it looks like you are trying to outbrake them into the turn rather than race side by side through the turn. I think it would have been almost impossible to do that which IMHO is why you locked up the tires trying to slow down. Next time try to stay a few inches away from the other car as you approach the turn, leaving htem just enough track that they may need. Taking this approach I think would have resulted in you being more visable to the other driver and "if" they still turned in it would have been more of a bump rather than a hit like that. rubbing I think would be way better than banging. I also think it would have allowed you to brake about the same time they didkeeping up your momentum and possibly kept you up beside them. With your line you are forced to brake earlier based on how tight you had made the turn become. I think you then could have stayed beside them and tried to carry speed up over the hill and past them. Rarely do cars of equal potential complete a pass INTO the uphill unless they started side by side going onto no name straight. I have gone side by side multiple laps with multiple people in that turn and usually completed the pass exiting the turn or even in west bend or later. Your "move" would have only worked if the other car backed off and let you through. which this is racing most of us are not programmed to do that! I think a better move like I tried to explain would have gotten you beside them at best but set you up for completing a pass later in the lap. Less be honest you are clearly faster through that section and you just needed to figure out a way to get up beside them, then passing would have been the easy part. At least from watching this video this is what I would have tried to do, especially given the "chop" a few laps earlier. (which I don't think was "wrong" on the other driver)

I would also recomend that next time you get in that type of situation stay focused! taking both hands of the wheel is a nice gesture but not really safe IMHO. You also waited a while before getting back on the gas. Keep in mind people coming from behind are still moving fast and the other car apeared to be blocking a large part of the track. Keep yourself safe and get going as fast as possible to avoid another contact from behind. I know it sucks to make a mistake and you want to say sorry right then but don't let it get worse by sticking around ;)

I hope I am not stepping on toes or offending you but you asked for feedback :)

Stephen


Yeah, you can't out brake someone in the Up Hill....... it's a tap on the brakes?? How are you going to out brake someone in that situation? And some of the Miatas don't even hit the brakes there! You need to set the person up in the left hander then get a run on them out of the right hander. How far up on the other car you need to be to make it stick depends on who it is your passing. A friend you trust? The door. Anyone else? Side by side...... and if you're not you better be prepared to back out of it. just remember that outside wall is right on the edge of the track. You don't want to put the other car into it.......

The same with West Bend and somewhat with the Down Hill.

ok... too much Sunday afternoon quarterbacking (Jeff, stay on the farm... lol). I appreciate the feedback from all including you Stephen. PS. interestly enough, I am getting PM's from National drivers including Runoffs champs - the personal feedback varies greatly from person to person, it's just fascintating.

Yes, I should have been side by side as much as possible. Also, I was not trying to outbrake anyone. The braking started when I relaized I was too offline for turn-in and soon thereafter realized I was too offline for braking as well.

[dickita15]

I deleted w/o intent. This will have to do Jeff Lawton :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwsrTkiEOGs&feature=share


By the way you are supposed to remove the pin from the fire system on grid.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Looking at Steve's video, HE might have been some of the reason the start got waived...full throttle as the pace car comes off? HA! :eclipsee_steering:

[Abhi]

Looking at Steve's video, HE might have been some of the reason the start got waived...full throttle as the pace car comes off? HA! :eclipsee_steering:

Nice... And a bunch of others (including myself) get a written reprimand.

I looked at my video several times also and don't see how Jeff or I jumped the start.

Abhi

[wepsbee]

Nice... And a bunch of others (including myself) get a written reprimand.

I looked at my video several times also and don't see how Jeff or I jumped the start.

Abhi

With video evidence can you appeal?

[Abhi]

With video evidence can you appeal?

Really no point...

Going to frame the reprimand and hang it up in the trailer. :dead_horse:

[Greg Amy]

With video evidence can you appeal?
Nope, too late. You have 10 days to appeal; as I recall that happened Saturday the 9th? Well, I suppose if you could get it in by end-of-day today...

But to what end? What will they gain? A written reprimand carries 1 point on the license and it takes 11 points in a 3-yr period to cause a probation. Were I advising them I'd say "suck it up" and just go racing and not worry about it.

GA

[dickita15]

Actually it was a chief steward’s action so you would have had to protest it at the event and have it heard by the SOM. The SOM you have ten days to appeal.

[Seabee]

I was a bit on edge during the start as I got ambushed recently at WGI on the start.

And my system has two pins. The one at the fire bottle was pulled.

[Greg Amy]

And my system has two pins. The one at the fire bottle was pulled.
The purpose of pins is to keep the system from accidentally firing. The purpose of pulling the pins prior to going on track is so that you can quickly and easily activate the system while strapped into your seat.

You want to be futzing around at 100mph trying to get the "safety" pin out of that cable while going down the front straight at LRP on fire? Of course not, you want to reach over and simply push/pull the handle to make that fire go away. The Jewish god, Jesus, or Tom Cruise can't help you if there's a pin keeping the cable from moving.

Pull ALL pins on fire systems* prior to beginning of session.

GA

* Note: this applies to fire SYSTEMS only. Handhelds are NOT required to break the safety seals. This makes sense, as if you're already in hand with a handheld after having removed it from the brackets, it's very easy to break that plastic strap. Not so with a fire system.

[raffaelli]

My view of the start. Looks like I jumped past Jeff. I don't see Jeff moving ahead of anyone in our line.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDBTAPa34QM

[JLawton]

My view of the start. Looks like I jumped past Jeff. I don't see Jeff moving ahead of anyone in our line.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDBTAPa34QM


Holy crap. It looks like Mickey must have been on it (watch in Chris's mirror) the second the pace car pulled off............

I want to see Abhi's video. I swear I saw him pop put early and it was so bad i knew it was going to get waved off!!

I am sooooooo glad that it wasn't me!! In another 5 years we'll be sittin' around having a beer sayin', "do you remember when Mickey won the waved off start? Bwaaahaaaahaaa!!" :lol:

[Andy Bettencourt]

So it looks like Chris, Jim Alley (on left in Chris's vid) and Micky all passing before green.

Mayhem started by Steve's full-throttle start pre-flag. LOL!!!

Steve - keep the start in 2nd gear at about 5500...you will be fine.

[mossaidis]

I keep focused on the car in front of me. I gas it when brake lights go off and I hear "vrrommm". some of us don't have "radios" with "spotters" on the other end. Just sayin.

[JLawton]

So it looks like Chris, Jim Alley (on left in Chris's vid) and Micky all passing before green.

.

You guys all owe me for the point on my license!


I missed Jim's outside pass. Now we need some evidence for Abhi!!

[Greg Amy]

I gas it when brake lights go off...
Non-turbo cars are using brakes during a start....? That's an old turbo car trick to keep the turbos spooled, but kinda pointless on a normally-aspirated car...and a damn good way to pre-overheat your brakes.

But now that I know that people are looking for brake lights, the mind reels with the psychological possibilities... - GA

[raffaelli]

I keep focused on the car in front of me. I gas it when brake lights go off and I hear "vrrommm". some of us don't have "radios" with "spotters" on the other end. Just sayin.

Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
'92 Honda Civic Si
- 2009 5th place ITA NARRC & Mohud Region CO-rookie (?!) of the year
- 2010 1 ventilated D16 block and oil all over WGI
- 2011 2 flat spotted tires, 2 broken splitters, right skin damage and runner-up ProITA champ
-2012 Waved Off Start Regional Champion

[mossaidis]

Anyone have a baby pacifier for Jeff? ;)

[mossaidis]

Non-turbo cars are using brakes during a start....? That's an old turbo car trick to keep the turbos spooled, but kinda pointless on a normally-aspirated car...and a damn good way to pre-overheat your brakes.

But now that I know that people are looking for brake lights, the mind reels with the psychological possibilities... - GA

There's an "AND" in my logic there Mr. tGA... :006:

[mossaidis]

Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
'92 Honda Civic Si
- 2009 5th place ITA NARRC & Mohud Region CO-rookie (?!) of the year
- 2010 1 ventilated D16 block and oil all over WGI
- 2011 2 flat spotted tires, 2 broken splitters, right skin damage and runner-up ProITA champ
- 2012 Waved Off Start Regional Champion

you darn tutin!

[Abhi]

Now we need some evidence for Abhi!!

I will be back home this weekend and get it off the GoPro and post it.

Abhi

[BruceG]

Anyone have a baby pacifier for Jeff? ;)

Mickey....you need to deliver a couple of lbs of baklava to Jeff.....LOL.

[Seabee]

The purpose of pins is to keep the system from accidentally firing. The purpose of pulling the pins prior to going on track is so that you can quickly and easily activate the system while strapped into your seat.

You want to be futzing around at 100mph trying to get the "safety" pin out of that cable while going down the front straight at LRP on fire? Of course not, you want to reach over and simply push/pull the handle to make that fire go away. The Jewish god, Jesus, or Tom Cruise can't help you if there's a pin keeping the cable from moving.

Pull ALL pins on fire systems* prior to beginning of session.

GA

* Note: this applies to fire SYSTEMS only. Handhelds are NOT required to break the safety seals. This makes sense, as if you're already in hand with a handheld after having removed it from the brackets, it's very easy to break that plastic strap. Not so with a fire system.

Hmm. If I am going to remove all safety devices then I am going to wear a condom when driving. I will put some extra ones in the 1.8L Miata toilet.
Or have to put the pull cable in a place where my co-drivers in endurance racing won't hit it as they seem push/pull/hit/break all kinds of stuff when in there.

[StephenB]

Or have to put the pull cable in a place where my co-drivers in endurance racing won't hit it as they seem push/pull/hit/break all kinds of stuff when in there.

Seriously That is a good idea. Don't play with fire. We have witnessed two MAJOR fires at NHMS in the last year and I really don't want to see you get hurt. I can't imagine why ANYONE would ever leave a pin in unless on accident, leaving it in defeats the entire purpose of a fire system...

PLEASE TAKE THEM BOTH OUT!
Stephen

PS: I didn't even get into how you should get new co-drivers if they trash your car getting in and out because this isn't really a joking matter.

[JLawton]

Non-turbo cars are using brakes during a start....? That's an old turbo car trick to keep the turbos spooled, but kinda pointless on a normally-aspirated car...and a damn good way to pre-overheat your brakes.



I started doing it in the Saturn when I was having trouble heating up the rear tires on the pace lap. I drag my brakes almost the whole lap. Then i also found I could get a few hundred more RPMs when I'm on the brake and the gas waiting for the green flag. When grid starts to yo yo you don't have to keep coming off the gas to keep from hitting the guy in front of you. We've all gotten caught at that very moment you come off the gas and the green drops.

[JLawton]

Anyone have a baby pacifier for Jeff? ;)

For me?? You mean instead of the person saying (in a whiny voice to Kathy) "I couldn't see. My car is too low. I'm too short. I don't have radios"


Suck it up. You fucked up. No excuses............ And I bet 90% of the field did not have radios.


Or, if you prefer, we can talk about how you hit three cars in two weekends.............. :D

[gran racing]

"I don't have radios"

Yeah, LMAO. How many drivers really have radios? You weren't that far back in the field either. I must say that was one of the biggest false starts I've seen yet. :p

[Greg Amy]

"I don't have radios"
I had a big laugh at NHMS at the expense of a SM driver/friend. He got seriously snookered at the start and came out of the car in impound griping at his crew for not giving him the green call in time. I was all like, "Dude, radio? Seriously? You were on the pole, look out the f*****g window!"

:happy204:

[Ed Funk]

Geez! Baklava, pacifiers, condoms!?!!? Kinda glad our A car is not ready yet....you guys woulda been callin' me "that effin' old Kraut" by now!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Non-turbo cars are using brakes during a start....? That's an old turbo car trick to keep the turbos spooled, but kinda pointless on a normally-aspirated car...and a damn good way to pre-overheat your brakes.

But now that I know that people are looking for brake lights, the mind reels with the psychological possibilities... - GA

Oh, I for sure do that. It's not like I am full throttle, just putting the car under some load in an effort to reduce ANY lag time when I see that green.

[lawtonglenn]

Oh, I for sure do that. It's not like I am full throttle, just putting the car under some load in an effort to reduce ANY lag time when I see that green.

+1

[mossaidis]

For me?? You mean instead of the person saying (in a whiny voice to Kathy) "I couldn't see. My car is too low. I'm too short. I don't have radios"

Suck it up. You fucked up. No excuses............ And I bet 90% of the field did not have radios.

Or, if you prefer, we can talk about how you hit three cars in two weekends.............. :D

Again, anyone have a baby pacifier for Jeff?

On edit: JEFF! are you coming to LRP this weekend?!?! :)

[gran racing]

Why, you going to hit him again? :D

[vicktorvolpe]

man, i'm not racing this weekend but I should come up Saturday afternoon just to watch!

[mossaidis]

Why, you going to hit him again? :D

at this rate?... nah! I kid I kid


man, i'm not racing this weekend but I should come up Saturday afternoon just to watch!

All of you should stop by!

[CRallo]

I was hoping to make an appearance, but have lots of work in the shop... a good and bad thing.

[Abhi]

Or, if you prefer, we can talk about how you hit three cars in two weekends.............. :D

Jeff,

Quit whining. Mickey barely made contact on you.
And he did offer to buy dinner (at least he did after hitting me :) )

So my question... Are you both going to Watkins Glen ?
I will sit back and watch.

Abhi

P.S. Mickey is going to autograph where he hit me.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So in case nobody knew the secret to avoiding this stuff, it's to grab the pole and drive away from the field. :D

[vicktorvolpe]

Jeff,

Quit whining. Mickey barely made contact on you.
And he did offer to buy dinner (at least he did after hitting me :) )

So my question... Are you both going to Watkins Glen ?
I will sit back and watch.

Abhi

P.S. Mickey is going to autograph where he hit me.

Matt needs to make a "wall of shame" and have us pose whenever we hit someone....especially if it's a car he has to work on!

-Vick

[gran racing]

Ummmm, Matt will be making a wall of Gold if he keeps having his customers crash into other customers of his. Maybe that's why there are rumors of Matt convincing Lawton into retribution with Mickey? Or was that Abhi? Or Diane? LMAO

See you boys at the Glen next month.

[Abhi]

I missed Jim's outside pass. Now we need some evidence for Abhi!!

Video posted
https://vimeo.com/44553512

I saw the field compress and popped to the right to avoid hitting Chris.

Note my "sudden loss of talent" at the 13:45 mark on the downhill.
:)

Abhi

[CRallo]

So in case nobody knew the secret to avoiding this stuff, it's to grab the pole and drive away from the field. :D

Dick.

But where is the fun in that?!

[Ed Funk]

Andy said that, not Dick....OH.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dick.

But where is the fun in that?!

HA! Depends on your version of fun. My favorite moment in video history is when I lap Lawton at LRP and he hits his steering wheel.

The NARRC Runoffs will be a fun race for all.