Voluntary RANDOM car inspections (oh my!)

[S2_ITBVW]

As I have been working to build my car in a manner that is compliant with the rules I have been alternately encouraged and discouraged by the comments of fellow competitors. The folks that I have encountered typically seem to fall into two main groups. The members of the first group work hard to develop their cars to their potential within the parameters established by the GCR, and actually ENJOY the challenge of being competitive AND legal. The second group is the group that says “everyone cheats” and, for that reason, cheat themselves. I’m disappointed by the number of times I have had someone say this to me. I recently sent an email enquiring about a “fast” car that was for sale and explicitly asked if the car was legal. The off handed response was, “All the fast cars in IT are illegal.” As a fairly new participant who is sinking a bunch of time, money and effort into the legal development of my race car this sent me into a bit of a tailspin where I questioned the investment I am making when I know that someone can make the same or greater gains with an illegal cam and pistons. I would really love to know that there are some contingencies at play working to keep things legal. As I read through the dialogue on here about all the conflict and emotion that arise from protesting someone else’s car, I can see why it would be something that most folks would hate to do. Pitting one driver against another has its own set of contingencies that would cause most to avoid protesting another car unless you were absolutely sure that there was non-compliance. Since no one really has the ability to examine another race car (and in many instances lack the expertise to know what they are looking at if the car is unfamiliar) it just seems unlikely that this is a truly effective way to inspire compliance among participants. It’s been my experience that the best way to handle a compliance situation like this (i.e., where non-compliance is not immediately obvious) is with RANDOM testing. You could simply draw a car number (or a few car numbers) out of a hat after the last Saturday afternoon on track session at each event and subject those cars to a “reasonable” inspection (e.g., cam, fuel, track width, etc.). Basically, the inspection could inspect whatever can be inspected without tearing things apart in a way that might be too difficult to put back together. Sure, illegal components could be added after the Saturday inspection, but somehow I doubt it (if for no other reason than it’s pretty easy to observe someone dropping in a new cam at the track).

Heck, I would be willing to be a part of a group of drivers that voluntarily participate in something like this. To make it more positive we could all throw $20 into a pot so that the “randomly” selected cars/drivers not only get inspected, but they get to split the “pot” too. It might make it less aversive if the driver dealing with the inspection gets $100 for his/her trouble. This could “encourage” other drivers to participate. I think just the ongoing presence of activity like this would begin to exert the kind of “pressure to comply” that we want at the track. At the very least, folks will know that “everyone does not cheat.” I think things like this will be the only way that we are going to get more folks to take compliance seriously.

OK, why is this a terrible idea?

[RSTPerformance]

Great idea!!! But I dont think it will go anywhere other than just talk... In my personal experience I have had my engines completely apart (head off the car) sitting for anyone to inspect. People come over and offer help to get back on track but were not really interested in taking the time to inspect things even when I encouraged it. At Watkins Glenn I even tried to protest myself to have tech measure things and do what they would do if a motor was torn down. I was quickly encouraged by everyone at the track (NOT JUST tech or the Stewards) to back down and enjoy the rest of he weekend helping my brother.

The reality is you need to find a group of people willing to do this at the track rather than hang with family/friends, watch racing, and enjoy after race beverages.

Hope this doesn't get you down, we have been trying to figure this one out for years!!!

Raymond

[Knestis]

The IT National Tour "open-hood policy" will be in force at the IT Festival. That will be a good first step but probably not enough to change the culture by itself.

K

[gran racing]

It's not a bad idea at all. I honestly think the majority of the fast / good drivers are legal. I know there have been a few people that I questioned in the past.

Okay, since Ray posted lets bring his Audi into play. A few years ago, I straight up asked him if his car was legal. There's supposedly some other type of Audi head that people were starting a rumor that he and his brother were using. I admit that I was curious. Ray and I spoke nicely, I mentioned my concerns, and he welcomed me to take a look at any time. Our conversation went well, I'm glad that we talked instead of just letting more rumors become created, and it all worked out well. He's more than welcome to check out my car and talk with me, and vice versa.

If you or someone else feels that there's a car out there which isn't legal, approach that person nicely. Do your homework - see Kirk's VW post. At least in the N.E., I think our group has been pretty good at working together to keep things legit. No, I haven't been a part of a tear down but am not afraid to have anyone look at my car either. The head is off now; I welcome help putting it back together. :D

I've been on the other side too. Some guy in the Lime Rock store was talking about how the front ITB drivers all cheat. His friend drives in ITB, and was also complaining about it. I couldn't help but chuckle. I told them that I drive the Prelude in ITB. LMAO! "Oh." I then told them that there's a HPDE coming up, why don't they bring their ITB car, have a right seat in it and I'll help him get faster. The response was "I don't need coaching." There are plenty of other drivers taking this position too.

At the same time, it's important to learn the process of protesting a car and from others experiences. Even the threat of a protest goes a long way. Talk with a few drivers from your class, mention the idea of doing a protest based on picking from a hat, or other ideas they might have. There are some ways of doing this which can keep things lite, and not feel like the group is going after one single competitor.

In the end, you need to do what feels right. I've been in your shoes, thought about how easy it might be to put an illegal cam in my car, but at the end of the day I won't be proud of my accomplishments. No one else is going to care or remember that you won a race at whatever track, only you.

[RSTPerformance]

I

In the end, you need to do what feels right. I've been in your shoes, thought about how easy it might be to put an illegal cam in my car, but at the end of the day I won't be proud of my accomplishments. No one else is going to care or remember that you won a race at whatever track, only you.

+1 on Daves comment...

I have been on the stewards side in a VERY expensive SM protest... The car was legal and I bet that driver was very proud of his acomplisents, I know I was!!!

Mechanical protests are a lot of work for VOLUNTEERS (Remember we are only one category and we are not always the category that got the volunteer interested in coming to the track). You need to organize a group within the group to self police (do these unofficial checks) but like I said when it comes down to it people are not that interested once they get to the track... Especially if they are beating the "questionable" car.

I love the idea, just sharing my thoughts from my experiences.

Raymond

[JLawton]

I can assure you that most of the front runners don't cheat........ I know it gets discouraging but you gotta work on developing yourself and your car and not worry about what other people are doing or saying..............

[jumbojimbo]

I can assure you that most of the front runners don't cheat........ I know it gets discouraging but you gotta work on developing yourself and your car and not worry about what other people are doing or saying..............

I agree, you are either not talking to the right people or you are listening to the wrong kind of people. The kind of people who think anyone ahead of them is there because they cheat.

You didn't even mention the bulk of drivers, people who do this for fun, don't purposely cheat to gain an advantage, probably have a few things not legal on the car. Are not interested in complaining about someone else's missing washer bottle or incorrect valve cover and assume most people feel the same about their "illegal" windshield wiper switch.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I love an open hood policy in impound!!!

[tom91ita]

I have no issue with open hoods but am not interested major work unless it is a championship event like the ARRC.

And there is a difference in illegal and cheating in my book. I think could find something wrong on nearly every car (I had to remount my transponder lower and now have 4 1/4" holes in the inner fender no longer used) that would be a chicken-shit protest.

[jhooten]

Who is going to pay for it?

[JohnRW]

Who is going to pay for it?

It doesn't cost anything to open a hood !

[TStiles]

Impound & weigh top 3 in class = good
Open hood in impound = good
Teardowns at regular event = not realistic
Teardowns at big events = OK if we have vols with the tech experience on lots of different cars

I miss the culture of competitive golf where competitors call penalties on themselves.

[StephenB]

I think something simple like a whistler wood be a good tool to use. Easy and gets a rough idea of legality. Then do teardowns if you really think you need to...

Stephen

[shwah]

Dave,

I have found that most folks with the "everyone is cheating, so I will too" approach are running mid pack. Have not run into a lot of very front runners that are cheating (on purpose). I have run into some that really believed that what they were doing was legal, but in the end it was not.

Heck when I first built my car, I thought nothing of replacing the steering rack bushings with stiffer material. I had heard that bushings were free. Well of course that was only in reference to suspension bushings, as I soon realized. It was a pain enough to change them with the right parts that I left it that way for a while, but once I became more competitive, I made a point to get in there and fix it. When you are winning you are under more scrutiny, and need to be sure that your stuff is as right as can be.

EDIT -
On the protest front. While I agree that our system can make people shy to enforce the rules, at the end of the day I see it as the best medicine for good, strong, legal competition. I have not had to ever write a protest, but I have encountered obviously illegal cars that were very fast. The first few times I got my butt whipped by them I was not fast enough myself to have a good feel for what was legitimately possible or not. However after seeing some illegal parts mentioned in classified ads by on racer that showed up on an entry list one weekend - I did my homework to figure out what the strong points for that car were, and how the weak points could be improved illegally. It was very strong in the wrong phase of a lap - acceleration - for what it was. I made sure tech knew before the event that the racers in our class would take action if the car ran with us, and then had a polite conversation with the guy at the track. He gave me a sad story about how he just wanted to get his races in to keep his license, and didn't want any trouble. I told him that was fine, but if he took the track in our class I was writing paper to tear his motor down, so maybe he should consider changing to a class that his car was legal for. In the end he changed to STU, where he was not 100% legal either, but he was the only car. That car proceeded to turn very competitive B times, with so-so driving all weekend.

It was hard to do in an area where honestly we really need to cultivate entries, but as I see it that will only happen if we can develop a culture of expected legality - which we are doing.

[jhooten]

It doesn't cost anything to open a hood !

He specifically mentioned cams. Tell me how to do a cam inspection without at least a partial tear down.

[seckerich]

He specifically mentioned cams. Tell me how to do a cam inspection without at least a partial tear down.

$25 and one sheet of paper.

[gran racing]

Not that simple.

[Flyinglizard]

You could also do the sat afternnoon, asshoolstroll.
This requires a 12 packof beer, and the front drivers of your class.
Method as follows. Walk to each car, Offer the driver a beer. remove valve cover, compare cam to known good value. Run a cranking compression test, compare to KGV. Peek into the plug hole. In the case of the VW, 8/5 to one and the 10/1, you can see the difference of the piston top.
Drink beer, Move to next car.
In My Exp, the new guys have the edgy parts. Some times the wrong engine. Be nice and explain why it matters to you. Dont be a dick.
This method is a lot easier than the paper method and may not chase off some offenders if done with the right intent and beer for the offending driver.

[jhooten]

$25 and one sheet of paper.

Ok, now take a look at the newly added second line in my sig and tell me step by step how to verify the compliance of the cam you just dropped paper on without doing at least a partial tear down of the protested car.

[Flyinglizard]

The actual legality of cams is almost impossible with SCCA,IMHO. You would need a KGV for each car. And the cam centerline is a non tech item .
Just removing valve covers is enough for most. The non part # cams go away fast. IMHO.

[S2_ITBVW]

I may be talking to the wrong people, but I know for a fact that the people I’ve been “talking” to were/are racing at the front. It’s a moot point, but a couple of them hold track records that are currently still on the books. There is absolutely an attitude at all levels of motorsport where the competitors do everything they can to push the limits of the rules in order to get a little edge on the competition. I actually have less of a problem with it in Formula One and NASCAR where the teams are constantly at work to exploit gaps in the rules that are being monitored by professional scrutineers. I have more of a problem with folks who cheat in an environment like ours where no one is even looking most of the time (then they feel clever about it!).

I agree with all the folks who think there is a big difference between “cheating” and simply not knowing any better. Let’s face it, the GCR is a pretty thick rule book. Even with the very best intentions folks are going to make mistakes. More than once already I have discovered that something on my car is not quite right. Given my technical ineptitude, it’s very likely to happen again. I don’t want a situation where folks are going to get the rule book thrown at them, or have their weekend ruined, after they agree to participate in something like this. If something was “just not quite right” I would expect the person to make it right before the next race. Actually, I would expect that folks who have volunteered to have other folks look at their car would not likely be the ones to blatantly cheat. So, in a way, the exercise would be more a demonstration of compliance than an actual test. I actually envision the driver and his crew giving other competitors a “tour” of his/her car rather than having folks who don’t really know the car tear into it. Maybe there could be a checklist and the driver would just step through it while other folks watched and asked questions or (GULP!) even made suggestions or gave advice. This would not be aversive, could actually be enjoyable, and could be done in about 30-45 minutes while everyone was sipping on their favorite cold beverage. I don’t necessarily see this as something the race officials would be burdened with. I see it as something the drivers organize and participate in voluntarily.

Jerry, I guess I don’t have a deep enough knowledge of all the cars to know if this is as simple as popping off a valve cover and removing a wheel. I guess we would just have to agree on what makes sense for an exercise like this. I think any effort would make a difference.

It occurs to me that folks could claim that they don’t want to expose “technical secrets” during a process like this. I guess that could kinda/sorta be a justified concern . . .

Anyway, we all make a reasonably big investment to participate in this sport; and I would like to see more being done to promote a culture of compliance. What I see and/or hear about being done, typically, is nothing. I would love to figure out a way to do “something.” Open hoods may be a start . . .

[Flyinglizard]

Most cheating is done in the area of compression and moving air. Cam, intake, ports and deck height are all areas that the front runners have maxed out, or a little over.
Nothing inside the engine is a tech secret. These engines are supposed to be stock, and appear stock.
10hp can be gained by maxing out the specs, or building where there are no specs. Block deck, piston to wall clearance, ring gap, ring style. retarding cam timing,etc.Using aftermarket valve springs, adding shims under the springs. All this has been approved over time, because of lack of factory specs.

My Book states that if the rules are not ever checked, than the rule has no value and all of the front running cars will have shifted to the new rule set.

Announcing that the valve covers will be removed in post race, will help. IMHO. A compression check will help.
The facts are, that this is hobby level race group. No one cares who wins. The rules are treated that way.

Go and run the local oval track, if you want rules enforced.. We had the car inpieces each week. Eventually the tech guy started marking our stuff with QC tech crayon so that he would not go over the same parts twice.
The oval track rules are easily enforced. Vac rule for any cams, no porting . etc. makes it quick and defined.

[S2_ITBVW]

I'm good with it. If I thought folks would be enthusiastic about a process like this I would dive in and try to get something going, but that's not the case. It's nice to discuss stuff like this though . . . keeps the juices flowing!

DE

[almracing]

I can assure you that most of the front runners don't cheat........ I know it gets discouraging but you gotta work on developing yourself and your car and not worry about what other people are doing or saying..............

Definitely great advice from Jeff. Seat time is king. Build the car to the rules and get on the track. The front runners are not wandering the paddock asking other people what they are doing... they are figuring it out on the track.

[seckerich]

Ok, now take a look at the newly added second line in my sig and tell me step by step how to verify the compliance of the cam you just dropped paper on without doing at least a partial tear down of the protested car.

Should have put a smiley face Jerry, just kidding you. Every form of racing has those that cheat, those that are convinced they are the next F1 driver that is only getting beat because everyone else is cheating, and those that play by the rules and get satisfaction from winning legal.

Tear everyone apart and be jerks and they go elsewhere. Sometimes it takes a teardown to restore balance, but it is never fun and feelings are always hurt. Big races you know teardown is coming and that is part of it. Hard to send someone home with their motor in a box and see them racing again soon. Tough call either way.

[Flyinglizard]

If we looked at one little thing every race, things would settle in some. The look under the hood,or VC, should not scare anyone off or piss them off.
Just do it to the top 3 or4, every time, so that it is standard op.[
The most honest, want rules enforced.IMHO. <<MM

[jhooten]

Cheating is a personal integrity issue. Voluntary compliance levels in all aspects of society today are much lower now than at any time I can remember. I can remember when the attitude was I want to win because I prepared and performed better than the other guy, instead of win at any cost the rules be damned.


I have no problem with open hood impound. I think it would be of limited effectiveness in finding the cheaters. But if it makes everyone feel better.

Let's play what if. Assume that just by pulling the valve covers to see the cam would reveal the status of the parts. On the randomly chosen car, every thing is determined to be compliant, the cover screwed back down, and the vehicle is released from tech and allowed to race on Sunday. During the process the gasket is torn and nobody notices. During the Sunday race enough oil has leaked from the torn gasket that it begins to drop on the header and the car starts to smoke heavily. The meatball is shown to the driver and he has to give up his class leading position to answer the meatball. His car was found to be compliant and through no fault of his own his race is ruined. Is it fair? Who is responsible for his ruined race? What should be the remedy?

Remember actions have consequences.

Steve,
I though you might have been jerking the chain but it appears my calibration has been a little off lately. Or it could have been the battery was dead in my hearing aid and I didn't really hear what you wrote correctly.

[TStiles]

Back in the early 90's we had a perception issue with cheating , rough driving , and lots of hard feelings between Spec Racer competitors in SW Division.

We got Bob Gelles ( RIP Bob ) to be our steward. Bob made sure every car went across the scales after qualifing , seals were checked , rough driving received a stewards action , top 6 cars had something checked after every race , all cars had something checked some weekends ... Before long the perception of cheating was the exception and not the rule ... Not long after that the rough driving calmed down ... The next thing you know , the man drama was history.

Bob did a great job for the Spec Racer community. It was a much better place to race after he set the tone for one season.

If you think your division has a problem , get yourself a Bob Gelles for a season or two.

[CRallo]

Tell people to bring a V/C gasket and head gasket... Or even a whole set.

[Z3_GoCar]

The actual legality of cams is almost impossible with SCCA,IMHO. You would need a KGV for each car. And the cam centerline is a non tech item .
Just removing valve covers is enough for most. The non part # cams go away fast. IMHO.

And how does that deal with swapped oe cams and regrinds? A really interprizing cheater might even machine the oe markings on his aftermarket cam.

We had a protest upheld a few years ago, but it wasn't for a motor part. A top finishing 1st gen Rx-7 had the dealer installed hatch spoiler on his car. He left the region rather than take it off.

[Flyinglizard]

Like I said, the actual legality of cams is really hard if you are looking at a car that you are not familiar with.
Google up Super Stock cheatercams. They got so bad that theyjust allowed any cam thatmet the max lift rule. for the same reasons. The fact books dont have the cam profile numbers. Just the max lift and toss values. Tech has to make their own cam profile windows like is done for the SM cars.
Pull the VC on Sun post race, if they pass good, if they dont, toss em for the whole weekend.

Announce the proposed action pre race,see if anyone shows up.

I took my Son's ITB car to Prod so that I can run free tires and my 4130 axle cages.
MM

[Ron Earp]

It seems to me some cursory checks could be done such as a compression check and cam inspection. I assume the compression can at least be checked somewhat with one of the frequency measuring devices and isn't very obtrusive at all. Maybe it isn't accurate to 0.05 compression points, but it seems to be accurate to a tenth or two, which should be sufficient.

Valve lift isn't too difficult, and while not the same as checking the cam with a cam machine, it is better than nothing. Valve lift can be done with a dial indicator and is quite simplistic to do - valve cover off, secure indicator, and turn the motor over.

I'm assuming that these sorts of things are already done at the ARRC and probably wouldn't be too hard to implement. Other items that could be easily inspected are flywheel material and gear ratios.

Rotaries are a bit left out in the cold here as there are no easy checks there (dredge up that old thread where we discussed rotary tech inspection: http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27917&highlight=rotary+tech&page=2) but such is life. Some checking of some cars is better than nothing.

R

[jhooten]

valve cover off,
R


http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/2066.gif (http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-banging-head-against-the-wall)

[Ron Earp]

http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/2066.gif (http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-banging-head-against-the-wall)


The original poster asked about the possibility of some trackside inspections. Folks have weighed in with their opinions and possible procedures. You disagree with some of them, but the cam-check scenario doesn't have to play out like you wrote with such a dire outcome.

There are plenty of ways to cheat a cam that a won't be detected in a valve cover off check at the track so it is of limited usefulness, but at least the valve lift can be checked which is better than nothing.

R

[ShelbyRacer]

There are plenty of ways to cheat a cam that a won't be detected in a valve cover off check at the track so it is of limited usefulness, but at least the valve lift can be checked which is better than nothing.

R

Along with rocker ratio (would show up with lift I guess) and the ferrous-ness of the valvetrain components...

[gran racing]

If I thought folks would be enthusiastic about a process like this I would dive in and try to get something going, but that's not the case.

I'm not sure anyone here said that they're againt further compliance checks. In fact, it's something many of us have advocated here before. Without at least some being done, it makes the temptation greater to push the boundaries.

That said, it does take people to actually man up and walk the talk. Hell, take a look at Lime Rock's upcoming race event (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30517)thread and lack of tech inspectors for that event. It will be tough enough for them to manage a regular simple day without considering doing any further checks. I think you'll receive support here and from other competitors as long as things are handled in a nice, fair, and respectful manner.


Like I said, the actual legality of cams is really hard if you are looking at a car that you are not familiar with.

I've looked into doing cam checks for another car before. I then discovered that for the BMW 2002 the cam is NOT easy to remove and actually takes a fair amount of work. Ugg. Then it made me curious about a few other cars...including my own. Where one gets a new OEM '87 Honda Prelude si cam is beyond me. That's what is needed to do a true cam check per SCCA rules as National doesn't have all of the specs to run with it.

[Matt93SE]

Don't worry about my valve cover leaking, Jerry. My front main seal and oil pan gaskets leak more than my valve cover gasket. :p

I also keep a spare Valve cover gasket in the trailer. they're like $20 from the dealer. it's quick and easy to pull the VC, and any smart racer should have a spare in their toolbox for that just-in-case moment.


To comment on the jist of the thread, I may only run mid-pack, but I make a serious effort to make sure every modification to my car is 100% legal. If it's questionable, I don't do it until I write the CRB and ask for clarification. In almost every case, the CRB has changed/added wording in the GCR based on my inquiries. sometimes it was to explicitly disallow what I wanted, other times it was to allow it.

All that said, I'm happy to open my hood and pull a valve cover for anyone that thinks my 130,000 mile STOCK UNTOUCHED engine is illegal for STU. ;)

[jhooten]

On the Supra it was the Front Main, The rear Main, the cam tower seals, the rear cam seals, just about everything but the valve cover.

Ron,
There is another aspect of your minimally invasive check that you may not be taking into consideration. Just small bore IT would be nine cars. You will be lucky to have two people available in tech to do the check. Impound last 30 minutes then the yard has to be cleared for the next race group. IF the crews pull the valve cover before the two tech people get there, the tech people have to set up the indicator, rotate the engine by hand, remove the indicator 9 times. Say you have a good tech guy who can do all that in 5 minutes you are 15 minutes over. Now at your home track you may have a separate covered impound area for each group, I don't. I've one small impound area out in the Texas sun. I would love to be able to tear down every car every time and catch anyone who cheats, but we have limits that we have to work around.

But here is an idea that may help us better be able to more thoroughly and quickly check more cars, GET YOUR TECH LICENSE and help out. You know how many licensed tech inspectors were at Lone Star's last race? ME!

The only thing I can tell you is you have to be a little more proactive in the self policing department. You cannot depend on the understaffed tech crew to catch everyone. IF you think someone is cheating pony up and drop paper. Be prepared to follow through with the tear down bond if the stewards deem one necessary.

OKAY, I'm off my soap box.

[Knestis]

>> ... The only thing I can tell you is you have to be a little more proactive in the self policing department. You cannot depend on the understaffed tech crew to catch everyone.

None of the problems you've described - from shorthanded tech sheds to smoking cars - is resolved by us applying the current "self policing" process. I throw paper; you have to deal with it.

What I got from the OP, and ideas like open-hood policies, is the idea of crowdsourcing some basic compliance pressure, so we can take the load off of the tech folks.

K

[jhooten]

Pulling valve covers is far from a simple open hood policy.

Actually you throw paper the stewards have to deal with it. I just do the checks they ask me to do based on the protest.

IF open hood impound is something that is desired by the community somebody write the letter asking for it.

Per the GCR three items must be checked. Here is the SOWDIV impound procedure in a nutshell.
First is Weight.
Second is a performance item.
Third is a Safety type item.
Depending on who the chief Stew is he/she will or delegate the tech stew to make a tech plan for the event. Tech is only allowed to check for those items on the tech plan in post race (we do not do post qualifying) tech. If there is a plainly visible non-compliant item on a car in impound and that item is not on the tech plan, unless some makes a protest, oh well. Not my choice that is the way the current management in the division want it.

Soon, I hope, race car V2.0 will be completed and I will go back to being inspected by tech instead of being the tech inspector. Anybody else care to step up and take on the job? Didn't think so.

[S2_ITBVW]

Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I was proposing would be something that racers would volunteer for and manage themselves. It would be voluntary, so that doesn't really fit within the "protest" framework. I think "anything" is better than "nothing." I think more than anything that this could be the catalyst for a bit of a culture shift.

But, I also understand that many folks "just want to have fun" and don't want to hassle with stuff like this . . . Like everything else in this sport, it also gets complicated really fast.

[Knestis]

...which is why there are different standards in different places. Different groups of drivers, in any class on any track, have a different culture that defines where the fun/compliance curves cross.

I think the lesson here is that culture has to be changed locally, like politics.

K

[shwah]

Dave I like the goal of your idea. However I think it would be tough to get enough people on board voluntarily to do this. It really is a culture issue for the race group, and the best way to affect that is to walk the talk. When I hear of things that are outside the rules I make a point to politely share my position - that it is important to be legal on everything, because everyone will want to draw the line somewhere different on what "matters".

More than once I have had a friendly conversation with someone that had made a mistake, or was reaching a bit with rule interpretation. In all but one instance it ended as a friendly conversation too. I really think that people appreciate these interactions. I know it makes me feel more confident in my competitors when I know that they care about the rules.

Talk to the guys that you race with about this. See what they think, see if they have other ideas or if they really do think that it does not matter. Use the big event in your area to illustrate to them why it does matter - the IT Fest definitely attracts folks that want to push, but stay within the rule set. Who knows, maybe all of the folks that say everyone cheats, so it is no big deal, really wish that no one cheated...

[S2_ITBVW]

With a couple exceptions, I don't think there are a lot of folks cheating in my neighborhood. And, I do think we can deal with this stuff locally. It probably does come down to just being "that guy" and saying something.

First race of the year this weekend . . . :)

[dhardison]

With a couple exceptions, I don't think there are a lot of folks cheating in my neighborhood. And, I do think we can deal with this stuff locally. It probably does come down to just being "that guy" and saying something.

First race of the year this weekend . . . :)Luckily none of those ITB "exceptions" are signed up for this weekend's event (unless you're referring to me :blink:).

[bhudson]

A lot of how you approach this depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If the goal is to straighten up the "inadvertantly non-compliant" cars, then Chris's approach works very well - often a chat from others in the class will get everyone on the same page.

If someone has a blatantly "cheater" car, a talk with the driver may not be effective and it has to come to the protest stage before the issue can be resolved.

Then there is the third situation and one that used to come up on ocassion in the early 1980's when Prod cars were pushing the preparation envelope. Someone would try some new modification, then get another driver to protest the item. Regardless of the outcome, the goal was to get the protest to the Court of Appeals so that the interested parties would know what is legal and what is not before getting to the Runoffs.

[Chip42]

Then there is the third situation and one that used to come up on ocassion in the early 1980's when Prod cars were pushing the preparation envelope. Someone would try some new modification, then get another driver to protest the item. Regardless of the outcome, the goal was to get the protest to the Court of Appeals so that the interested parties would know what is legal and what is not before getting to the Runoffs.

And for a fee you can shortcircuit the nonsense and have something willingly complianced checked using the COA but with the finding only published IF it is deemed illegal. it's in the GCR, likely a result of the sort of activity you describe.