What does a SCCA IT race car look like...

[ITEGT]

... after the last race of the '11 MiDiv season is cancelled, the first race of the '12 season is a 700 mile tow one way with a $450 entry fee, the IT race group is only invited to Saturday @ Hallet/National racers only on Sunday and the region excludes IT from the July Heartland Park event all together?

That SCCA race car now looks like this.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/99cobra2881/dorkian009.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/99cobra2881/dorkian007.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/99cobra2881/dorkian008.jpg

Anthony

[Alain V.]

AMEN BROTHER!!!!! F**K the SCCA!!!!! I haven't posted here in a loong time,,,mainly because I got sick of their crap, sold my racecar and started doing "track days" and other club events. Maybe when there's only two or three 90 year old v driver's left in their organization, they'll wake up and realize that all the grassroots guys are gone NASA and other club racing. Alain Vanhollebeke FORMER SCCA mid div driver of the black/green mercedes 190e, #9 ITE

[Greg Amy]

Am I the only one that finds it immensely entertaining that a couple of guys that proclaim to hate the SCCA read - and spend time to respond on - a web site devoted exclusively to an SCCA category...?

:smilie_pokal:

[zchris]

Poeple that are angry, tend to like to slam the door hard on there way out. I've noticed over the years, that poeple that are leaving racing for a multitude of reasons, tend to yell the loudest when they have nothing to lose. The SCCA, is clearly, not everyones cup of tea. Neither is NASA. Best of luck to all.

Chris

[red986s]

Nope Greg, you're not.:happy204:

Being a MiDiv member I understand the frustration. With the "Majors" program in full swing folks are moving to "National" classes to compete. Car counts are way down this year in IT and we are required to tow loooong distances. Something that wasn't an issue in years past. We also have NASA in the MiDiv now so a lot of folks have moved over to try that out. Rats, sinking ship and all that. :(

[ITEGT]

Hate is a strong word. I don't "Hate" the SCCA. I simply went where it was easiest for me to race for the least amount of money.

If the '12 MiDiv season was unchanged and the IT crowd was still welcome at all the race weekends then I'd have nothing to complain about and my car would still have SCCA decals on it.

Most of the info on the "Majors" and "Rationals" that I based my decision off of I read about here on this website.

So when I post up with the end result of what I've read on here then I'm blindly bashing the SCCA and I'm a hater on a SCCA website? No, I'm sorry that's mistaken. What was I supposed to do just sit around and bitch on here while I continue to send my entry fees to SCCA? Haha No, thanks.

[Ralf]

Greg,
At least they are voicing their opinion about what has been happening in the SCCA, especially here in MiDiv. I'm sure they would like things to change for the better.
In MiDiv, we have what we call the IT Tour that allows us regional guys to run on a national weekend. Most of the weekends used to be R/N weekends, so if we would not have the IT Tour, we would only race on Saturday. This worked great especially when the IT group was one of the largest groups of the weekend. Good for us regional guys and good for the region that has to pay the bills.
For 2012, we got introduced to Rationals, which in theory works great for the national classes too because they can get two days of national racing in on one weekend. The only problem with that is that entry fees have gone up since there are now more sanction numbers. These increased fees don't just apply to the national racers but also the regional guys. The most I paid last year was $340 for the weekend. Memphis reopened this year and started the season with $500 entry fees. That was a shock to everybody and the response was only about 50 entries.
And then there is the Majors program. The first majors event here in MiDiv was at Hallett along with the BFG Super Tour. In 2011, the tour still had room on the schedule for an IT Tour run group. Not this year. So who would drive all the way down there in order to just run on Saturday? Sure you could enter in one of the ST or Prod classes for an additional $200, but how well would you do? Many Miata drivers did enter multiple classes that event and therefore SCCA headquarters has called the event a sucess but what does that do for their racing budget and the rest of the racing season when they spent twice their entry fee on one weekend? They skip a couple, thats what.
Now the Majors event at HPT in July is an invite event only, so that means only the top 10 classes get to race. So that is another weekend that is gone off our schedule. Not good when we only have 8 weekends between 7 tracks.
Why should you care about what is happening in MiDiv? Because the Majors program will be expanded and will affect your race weekends. We've bitched on here for years how we are the step children of the SCCA with our regional only status, so this Majors program should piss you off too. Its all about the national classes and doesn't do anything for us IT guys.
Here are some numbers for you. In 2011, we saw a low of 14 cars in the IT run group and a high of 22. So far with 4 of our race weekends complete, our highest entry event had 11 IT cars. Memphis only saw 5 entries.
Now you may think what happened is that the rest of the IT guys just went national in ST or Prod, but guess again. Overall entries have been much lower than last year.
This could happen in your region as early as 2013.

[Greg Amy]

At least they are voicing their opinion about what has been happening in the SCCA, especially here in MiDiv. I'm sure they would like things to change for the better.
And "they" are wasting their time here on this board, doing nothing but annoying Improved Touring racers. If you truly want to make a change, then focus your efforts where it counts, not in a forum where the only change your effecting is making yourself look like a spoiled little child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket.


We've bitched on here for years how we are the step children of the SCCA with our regional only status, so this Majors program should piss you off too...Overall entries have been much lower than last year. This could happen in your region as early as 2013.And this was a shocker to you? It's right there in the rules, that this is a bastard-child class that will never gain National status. And everyone knows - or should know - that the Club focuses on the National program. Some regions have been able to make IT quite successful, but every one of these regions has the advantage of a large market of potential competitors. You don't.

So since "they" are obviously willing to make a change (by building another car and/or going to another sanctioning body), the simple answer is to find a class that's strong in your area and change to that. Or try to recruit some of those National competitors to switch to IT. The mosquito goes to the light bulb, not the other way around.


Why should you care about what is happening in MiDiv?Former resident of Wichita Falls Texas, former MidDiv member, 7-year competitor in MidDiv events, 1990 MidDiv SSA Divisional champion against John Saucier (Sr) when he was only "kinda" old (I miss that old rat bastard!)

I was there before Texas Motor Speedway, before MotorSports Ranch, when TWS was shut down, when the closest events in MidDiv were at airports like Ardmore Airpark, Big Spring Texas, and some other one in West Texas. Hallet Motor Speedway, 5 hours away, was my closest track; Topeka was brandy new (I raced the first National there in '89); Ponca City was our shining star National making us feel like real pro racing drivers with the crowds; Memphis and St Louis were full days' drives away, all in my Showroom Stock car with tires stuffed in the back, wondering how I was going to get home if I wrecked it.

You live out in the middle of effing nowhere, with "tracks", such as they are, and competitors spaced out every-which-where.

I recognized at the time I didn't have the opportunities I wanted in racing, nor the competitors, and that the organizers were doing the best they could with the limited tools that had. Recognizing this, I made a significant life change to improve my racing and in 1992 moved to Connecticut. Yes, just because of racing. Twenty years later I see I should have moved to the Southeast to be closer to my two favorite tracks, VIR (which didn't exist back then) and Road Atlanta, as well as other tracks that didn't exist, such as Homestead, Barber, and (I think?) CMP.

"Why should I care about what is happening in MiDiv?" Why should you care what the rest of the country thinks and thus post about it on a national forum (and not even in the regional forum area)? Stop being a spoiled child and make the changes and efforts needed to bring things to your satisfaction.

Or feel free to slam the door on your way out.

GA

[betamotorsports]

In business this is called the "Voice of the Customer." Maybe how and where they express themselves isn't ideal but they have been customers of SCCA and what they have to say is of value - if someone at SCCA is listening.

[Greg Amy]

...they have been customers of SCCA and what they have to say is of value - if someone at SCCA is listening.
SCCA Club Racing is not a "business", it's a club run by members with a very limited paid staff, and I'm pretty confident that Midwest Division SCCA isn't "listening" on the Improved Touring Internet forum.

But if it makes you feel better, good for you <insert pat on back here>.

GA

[downingracing]

Hate is a strong word. I don't "Hate" the SCCA. I simply went where it was easiest for me to race for the least amount of money. ....

If your only concern is cost (actual cash cost) - You're probably right. But there are WAY MORE factors to consider and it SHOCKS me that people focus on the up front cash cost first... There is a reason that many folks make that switch and come running back.

[BruceG]

SCCA Club Racing is not a "business", it's a club run by members with a very limited paid staff, and I'm pretty confident that Midwest Division SCCA isn't "listening" on the Improved Touring Internet forum.

But if it makes you feel better, good for you <insert pat on back here>.

GA

I just purchased an 88 ITS Mazda RX7 here for very reasonable money. Try to do that with showroom stock, any of the production classes,FF,FC,spec racer ford, FE or VSCCA.

Still the least expensive way to get into racing(IT).....and as Greg says, we all know the rules.

[ITEGT]

If your only concern is cost (actual cash cost) - You're probably right. But there are WAY MORE factors to consider and it SHOCKS me that people focus on the up front cash cost first... There is a reason that many folks make that switch and come running back.

"... after the last race of the '11 MiDiv season is cancelled, the first race of the '12 season is a 700 mile tow one way with a $450 entry fee, the IT race group is only invited to Saturday @ Hallet/National racers only on Sunday and the region excludes IT from the July Heartland Park event all together?"

Who's focusing on up front cash costs first? If the region had only raised the entry fees I'd have bitched about it but my car would still have SCCA decals on it. My decision was based on much more than cost alone.

Have I left SCCA for good? No. I still have my SCCA comp liscence and plan to keep my SCCA membership always.

The only thing I would ask of the other region IT racers that have read and posted in this thread is to take note of what happened in the MiDiv to the IT schedule and to the regional entry fees.

[Ralf]

Greg,
I'm still writing checks to SCCA and I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet, but wish something could be done to improve participation levels. The problem I see though is that in an effort to increase participation levels headquarters is introducing programs that are actually driving members away. They are not listening to their members. You would think that when the RE's tell SCCA that they have serious doubts about the program and how this affect overall participation levels they would listen, but they aren't. One RE even told me he was "Strongly encouraged to support the program". His answer to that is participating less. This is a guy that only misses 1 or 2 events a year and brings two cars.
So instead of calling me a child, offer some suggestions that could help bring back racers. You've obviously tried and failed and packed up and left, just like these guys that are now writing checks to NASA.
I'm not moving again. Been there, done that in my 20 years in the service. I'm staying put.
And yes, I believe some members that are involved in SCCA headquarters are reading these forums, more so than my local division leadership.

[Alain V.]

In the mid 1990s we used to have 40 plus IT cars in the group at least twice a year.
The IT run group at the time had more participation than any other class except spec racers. Cost was not the deciding factor for me,,,,,, I was campaigning not one,,,but two mercedes benz 190e racercars at the time,,,and you couldn't exactly get mail order parts from Summit for those cars.
You guys know the drill,,,,,it took all of my time (and yes, most of my money) to develop the car, fabricate parts, etc,etc,,,,only to be treated like you didn't matter because you don't have a "national" class. Now, all I ever used to hear about at board meetings was concern about "graying" of the SCCA. My logic was to pay a little more attention to the IT guys and maybe even have a few "spectator events" since the average joe can relate to IT cars,,,because he reckognizes the makes/models as.
This could generate interest in the club, and possibly help gain membership and participants

,,,,of course instead of trying anything that would be supportive of such a strong group of cars,,,,it seems like they are still stuck with dinosaur stuff like formula vee. Let's be honest here guys,,,the only twelve people in the nation who give a flying f**k about formula vee are the 12 old farts that still have one. It is dinosaur cars and they don not do anything to attract a younger audience.
Put that old crap into vintage racing where it and all the other dinosaurs belong and maybe then you will have some room for cars build within the last 20 years.

Even a local multiple national champ realized the shortcomings of old technology and moved his MGA into vintage racing ,while he now campaigns a modern mazda on the national club level.

Then there's the whole economics of it. track rentals and associated costs are expensive. So wouldn't it seem logical to try and have participation as high as possible? More participants=more entry fees=more money to cover costs,,,,,,,,so why does the scca seem to do everything it can to lower the motivation to enter on the regional level????

I guess to wrap up my little rant,,,,,, if you go to a local restaurant and they constantly treat you bad and serve mediocre food to you.
If things don't improve, you can vote with your wallet and go to their competitor down the street.

This is pretty much for what I and many others have done and are doing. I know this may seem like a "foreign" concept to many who only run scca events,,,,,,but there are actually groups and clubs out there who are happy to have you participate with them and who will treat you like they appreciate your choice to run with them.

[downingracing]

...Then there's the whole economics of it. track rentals and associated costs are expensive. So wouldn't it seem logical to try and have participation as high as possible? More participants=more entry fees=more money to cover costs,,,,,,,,so why does the scca seem to do everything it can to lower the motivation to enter on the regional level????

I guess to wrap up my little rant,,,,,, if you go to a local restaurant and they constantly treat you bad and serve mediocre food to you.
If things don't improve, you can vote with your wallet and go to their competitor down the street.

This is pretty much for what I and many others have done and are doing. I know this may seem like a "foreign" concept to many who only run scca events,,,,,,but there are actually groups and clubs out there who are happy to have you participate with them and who will treat you like they appreciate your choice to run with them.

I hear what you are saying - But I think you are missing one point. The SCCA is a club that 'should' be member-driven. My region is working hard to promote IT racing. I volunteer and participate in race planning as well as compete in the events. It takes members to participate and make the club what you want it to be. I'm a member of the club and want to do what I can to help my region be a success. I hear this over and over and over - "I don't know why the SCCA doesn't ...". I've said this over and over - It is EASY - Make it happen! Around here, IT racing is doing GREAT! IT-Fest, IT-SM Shootout @ Grand-Am, ARRC... There are plenty of 'cool' events to do along with all the other regional races going on. This past weekend was a 2x regional at Grattan and one at Watkins Glen. I was at the Glen and there were plenty of IT/SM cars and an overall great turnout for a regional race weekend. The IT-SM shootout event is sold out and has a waiting list...

Many of the other groups are for-profit and of course will be happy to take your money so they can make a profit! These groups will take your money and do what they can to make you happy (as long as they make a profit). The product they offer is fine for some - but not all events are equal... Some of these groups have poor safety records or practices. Some of those groups have sups with things like "you are responsible any damages you cause to the track" and "any damage between cars is between the owners of the vehicles". I know what those things mean and what they can mean if/when something goes wrong.

I appreciate there are choices and that some people are comfortable with making a choice different than mine. Everyone needs to asses the risk/reward/value and choose the path that they want. I know my risk/reward/value threshold and there is only one club that meets my criteria. All my .02 cents.

[Flyinglizard]

AS most of you know. I race and support lots of cars that run lots of groups. We have ran NASA, because of the Teen Mazda Challenge, and that they had the best SM rule set. More parity. SCCA has finally matched the NASA rules set. way slow, IMHO..

WE run Chumpcar because I need the business and it is fun, hassle free racing. About half of my Chumpcar drivers have a SCCA license. Chumpcar is huge and growing. It will surpass SCCA in racer numbers this year. 691 drivers @ Daytona this 5/27. All like the 14hr race in one day. tow in, race, tow home. We dont need a 4 day weekend to race 2hrs.
Many have let their SCCA stuff lapse due to the medical.,
I have. Maybe that could be looked at. Maybe the insurance/medical relationship can be looked at.

I use the SCCA PDX to test the Chumpcars. I get hassled by the tech guys and bitched at by the "old Guard"( stewards and racers). I really dont giveasheet, as I just want them to do their job. If I wanted an opinion, I would ask. Just tech the frakin car thanks. Is it safe? yes or no?.


SCCA has treated our family and most of my customers as tho they dont care about return business.
We run SCCA as a last resort to track time. I really hope that SCCA can turn itself to a better customer driven business.
It is dying as a club.

Racingwise;

Maybe it is time to get rid of the National/ regional split. Times change, SCCA should be able to change in less than 10yrs, to a required market change. The market has changed in major areas. We need a rapid business plan change to match the market and remain competitive.

This week I will make the connections @ CFR SCCA for crap can class or put them in ITO. I have a few guys that would try SCCA if they can run their cars, and we treat them as they have been treated by Chumpcar.

The main guy that owns Chumpcar, will go from team to team, and actually talk to each team and most of the racers , each race. He will give words of appreciation and field a few questions. Most SCCA races show about 10 stewards of the meet, or whatever . How many chiefs do we need? WTF do they actually do? How come I am not asked, "Are you having a good time? " "How can we improve your experience with SCCA? ."
IMHO make it better, more will stay.
MM

[RX555]

For those of you not in Midiv, the OP and others are spot on with the low turn outs in this division. Your division may be different. Midiv tracks are so far apart that entries are down the last couple years, but that's been discussed at length elsewhere. I think the division has realized it left us IT guys out and have gone back and added IT to most all the race weekends. I don't think entry fees have gone up other than at Memphis.
I've said it before in other threads, but if the other division tracks are too far away, just run what's close and have fun. Chasing points in the division just isn't worth anything to me.

I think the above post has it right with his comparison to Chumpcar (and Lemons too). Those series' are growing by leaps and bounds and more cars being built all the time, so blaming the economy for an SCCA down turn doesn't fly with me. SCCA has just lost it's way with enticing the new racers to the club. I'm still sticking it out so far and haven't tried the crap can racing yet, but would like too. My biggest thing against them is the cars are so crappy looking (which shouldn't matter but does to me).

[lateapex911]

I've said it before in other threads, but if the other division tracks are too far away, just run what's close and have fun. Chasing points in the division just isn't worth anything to me.

I think the above post has it right with his comparison to Chumpcar (and Lemons too). Those series' are growing by leaps and bounds and more cars being built all the time, so blaming the economy for an SCCA down turn doesn't fly with me.
Bzzzt: 404 error, logic not found

SCCA has just lost it's way with enticing the new racers to the club. I'm still sticking it out so far and haven't tried the crap can racing yet, but would like too. My biggest thing against them is the cars are so crappy looking (which shouldn't matter but does to me).

Chumpcar is DIFFERRENT. And you can't compare the two and eliminate the economy, because LeMons/Chumpcar isn't the same thing, AND it's cheaper. (esp when a gang of four shares the expenses)

You said it yourself, you are tired of chasing points, going for the championship, going for the wins.
See, THAT is expensive. I've done it, and the wins and the track records and divisional and ARRC championships and trophies cast money. A LOT MORE money than just running around with a lesser program.

And to competitors...real competitors to whom winning and track records mean success, the Crapcan stuff makes little sense. Why bother? Shitty cars, arbitrary rules, arbitrary rulings, and capricious officials.

I'm not saying it's worse, or better, but it's NOT the same. SCCA racing, in nearly every class, is about winning and running a top program.

I think it's more complex than just money.
1- Families are more demographic than they once were. The average SCCA guy gets his marching orders from his wife. Kids to soccer this weekend, Daughter is singing in a play the following weekend, and the son is in a swim meet the following, and Dad better be present. That isn't how it used to be. Shop time is reduced, personal free time is reduced, and available weekends are reduced. Therefor entries are down.
2- Costs ARE up. To get my car back on the track this year, and to be as safe I was last year, I will need to spend over $2K on safety gear, and arguably I'll be less safe. Then there's gas, ($200 to get to my second closest track, and about $250 to get to the next track. My "home" track has only 2 races this year) hotels, maintenance, tires, etc etc.
3- I think the general car guy population is seeing fewer 'real competitors" and more 'fun racers'. Guys who like racing, and are happy with little victories. Less track record seekers. And more track day guys who tell their friends they 'race', when they do track days. Blame it on video games or pampered egos, but I think the number of guys who are most interested in just winning are a shrinking proportion of the whole car guy population.

So, you have SCCA which is great are running real races and structuring the system around winning and such, but...there are fewer takers interested.

My $.02

[JeffYoung]

While I might have chosen different words than Greg, I think his view on this is correct. It's a regional issue, not an SCCA wide one. IT in the SEDiv (and NEDIv0 is very strong -- we had a 52 car IT field at VIR in May and over 40 cars (for a single!) in March. 17 ITS car in May and 13 in March.

If your region is scheduling races to "stick it to" the IT crowd, the remedy is with the region. Get involved with race scheduling and see if you can make a difference.....

[jhooten]

The Chief Steward and the Tech Chief were having a conversation this weekend. The gist of it was that SCCA needs to make up its mind as to whether it is a club and supports amateur club racers or it is a semi-pro racing organization. Super Tour and Majors (make it feel more like a pro event) mentality, while alienating the regional classes are not helping like "they" promised it would.

I know the economy gets lots of blame and that may be a factor. Our Memorial day weekend event has historically been well attended. This weekend both car counts and worker turn out was lower than it has been for a long time. I was the only one in tech and several of the stewards had to man timing and scoring or he would have been on his own, F&C had 2 on each corner where we usually have 3 or 4. We got it done and the drivers were exceptionally patient and understanding and I must say well behaved as there were no major incidents.

[Spinnetti]

The Chief Steward and the Tech Chief were having a conversation this weekend. The gist of it was that SCCA needs to make up its mind as to whether it is a club and supports amateur club racers or it is a semi-pro racing organization. Super Tour and Majors (make it feel more like a pro event) mentality, while alienating the regional classes are not helping like "they" promised it would.

I know the economy gets lots of blame and that may be a factor. Our Memorial day weekend event has historically been well attended. This weekend both car counts and worker turn out was lower than it has been for a long time. I was the only one in tech and several of the stewards had to man timing and scoring or he would have been on his own, F&C had 2 on each corner where we usually have 3 or 4. We got it done and the drivers were exceptionally patient and understanding and I must say well behaved as there were no major incidents.

One has only to look at the blooming market for alternate series to see that the economy isn't the issue, its the exlcusionary nature and lack of market responsiveness of the leadership. When Club racing peters out in the SCCA, I'm sure they will say it was due to lack of demand.... (at the last non SCCA event I did, there were at least 85 cars on track with me - no shortage of demand out there for a product that serves its membership well)

[BruceG]

Hate is a strong word. I don't "Hate" the SCCA. I simply went where it was easiest for me to race for the least amount of money.

If the '12 MiDiv season was unchanged and the IT crowd was still welcome at all the race weekends then I'd have nothing to complain about and my car would still have SCCA decals on it.

Most of the info on the "Majors" and "Rationals" that I based my decision off of I read about here on this website.

So when I post up with the end result of what I've read on here then I'm blindly bashing the SCCA and I'm a hater on a SCCA website? No, I'm sorry that's mistaken. What was I supposed to do just sit around and bitch on here while I continue to send my entry fees to SCCA? Haha No, thanks.

what does an SCCA race car look like....Here's an ITRR(improvedtouring rat rod) registered for the regional at LRP.


http://www.theblogmocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/Rat-Rods-2.png

[JLawton]

The Chief Steward and the Tech Chief were having a conversation this weekend. The gist of it was that SCCA needs to make up its mind as to whether it is a club and supports amateur club racers or it is a semi-pro racing organization. Super Tour and Majors (make it feel more like a pro event) mentality, while alienating the regional classes are not helping like "they" promised it would.

I know the economy gets lots of blame and that may be a factor. Our Memorial day weekend event has historically been well attended. This weekend both car counts and worker turn out was lower than it has been for a long time. I was the only one in tech and several of the stewards had to man timing and scoring or he would have been on his own, F&C had 2 on each corner where we usually have 3 or 4. We got it done and the drivers were exceptionally patient and understanding and I must say well behaved as there were no major incidents.


Again, I think it's a regional issue. We had at least 50+ IT cars at this past weekends race at NH Motors Speedway. The region bends over backwards so that we get plenty of track time (one qualifying session and three races) and schedules the run groups so people can double or triple dip. They are always looking for feed back and are willing to get creative. Maybe we're just lucky up here in the Northeast that we've got great people running our race program. :shrug:

Hey, I've just been double whacked in the last year over decisions that SCCA has made. First I bought an SSB car only to find out a short time later that Showroom Stock was going away, then I bought a Miata and three months later they added 80lbs to it. If anyone should be bitter it's me!!

But I still went out this past weekend, raced a lot, hung out with a lot of good friends and had a blast. Have your officials call our officials to find out how it's done! ;)

[Cobrar05]

scca's main problem is age and bureaucracy. ford racing is producing mustang race cars based on their performance mustang street car program. these cars are classed well at both grand am and scca pro racing world challenge. meanwhile as these race cars become more and more available to club racers, only nasa has a place for them to race. and they do with strong fields.

i was at cmp this past weekend and saw almost as many aged roadster production class cars as there were V8 cars in total. no 911 porsches. no bmw m3's. no american muscle cars under 10 years old.

i saw very few young drivers. people under 50.

truth be told, nasa is starting to hit some of the same generational issues. they are hard to deal with. dont deal with the passage of time well and you can be doomed by it.

[Knestis]

Quick check comparing number of entrants at NASA Mid-Atlantic shows numbers are down between 2011 and 2012, something like 10% among the race groups, comparing events/tracks year-to-year.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevents.jsp?st=3&org=46497

K

[DoubleXL240Z]

My 2 cents!!
I believe that SCCA needs to start developing a better plan for retaining and attracting new blood. I know they started the ST? thing and that is bringing the numbers in droves, but outside of that; How has SCCA changed in the last 10 years??
10 years ago if you wanted to race it was SCCA, IMSA, Grand AM, Speed World, ALMS ( all PRO)? Now you can go run with NASA, PBOC, ChumpCar, Lemons, Audi club, Viper club, Porsche club, BMW club, SVRA, HSR, VARA, etc etc etc Last count there was 13 different vintage organizatrions across the US!! 13 VINTAGE alone!!!
These are going to pull numbers!!! If a region is dumping on a class/ regional whatever, they have a choice. There is a group that will say, "Hey, you are our customer (read: check, paypal etc) what do we need to do to get you to come race with us?"
So, somebody feels dumped on, he has a choice. Some of the responses on here have taken his leaving very personal. If he has a car, and he feels abandoned he should leave.
I am pretty lucky where I am at Central Florida, Daytona 45 minutes, Sebring 1 1/2 hours, Palm Beach 4 hours, Homestead 5 hours, Savannah 5 hours. If it was 700 miles to race SCCA twice a year, CYA!!
Your mileage may vary, this is a limited time offer, not to be used in conjunction with any other offers, only 1 vehicle at this price, prior sales excluded, not responsible for misprints!

[lateapex911]

Jeff, how are driver school enrollments? WAY down up here.

[tom91ita]

not sure how the recent driver's school went here but i did see a note saying it was NOT cancelled.

the Memorial Day event i raced had typically been a decent event in the past but i think there were less than 60 total this weekend in 5 groups that were combined into 4.

in 2009 there were over 80 in 6 groups. i think breakeven for this track is about 70 based on comments i heard.

to the OP, i ran NASA for a bit when Honda Challenge was a bit more meaningful but decided that overall, i did not care for NASA.

good luck and i hope you enjoy your racing.

[Cobrar05]

Quick check comparing number of entrants at NASA Mid-Atlantic shows numbers are down between 2011 and 2012, something like 10% among the race groups, comparing events/tracks year-to-year.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevents.jsp?st=3&org=46497

K

nasa mid atlantic is hard to judge in the spring. they had snow and rain in their first two events this season.

look at nasa se.

nasa has its issues too and the economy is hurting everyone.

[SMac92]

,,,,of course instead of trying anything that would be supportive of such a strong group of cars,,,,it seems like they are still stuck with dinosaur stuff like formula vee. Let's be honest here guys,,,the only twelve people in the nation who give a flying f**k about formula vee are the 12 old farts that still have one. It is dinosaur cars and they don not do anything to attract a younger audience.
Put that old crap into vintage racing where it and all the other dinosaurs belong and maybe then you will have some room for cars build within the last 20 years.


Actually, there's plenty of people that give lots of flying fucks about Formula Vee. That's why it consistently has the top 3-5 national entries. The people that bought Formula V's in my region are all younger guys. I raced one when I was 16 with 7-10 other guys that were under 30 years old. After I left FV to get an ITA car, more younger guys joined the FV group. The average age for FV vs. any IT group is close (probably in the mid 40's).

On the other hand, I do agree that SCCA needs to pay more attention to their members. SCCA should be member driven (NASA allows their members to create rules for the class they drive in). SCCA also needs to invest in getting spectators to our events so that they can bring their friends, and eventually add an extra member or racer to the club.

Overall, the SCCA drivers, members, crew, all of us, need focus on the club as a whole, not the benefit of our personal interest, or else the club will lose the war with other various racing organizations.

[JeffYoung]

Jeff, how are driver school enrollments? WAY down up here.

Been down but a decent uptick this year. I think we had 100 entries at school in 2003, my school year. Under 40 for the last several but up to just over 50 this year.

Economy and Chump/Lemons I think are driving the numbers down. I see Chump/Lemons as a fad. It won't go away but it's popularity will die down as it sorts itself out into the haves and have nots as all popular series do (SRF....SM....Spec E30...IT).

We have a lot of customer service issues to fix, but if the racing stays like it was this weekend at CMP, I'm staying SCCA. Good friends, well prepped and driven RACE cars without cows on the roof, driven to the max, balls out for a 30 min sprint race. That's my personal preference for racing and SCCA delivers.

[lateapex911]

The numbers I've heard for the two schools up here, one at New Hampshire, and one at Lime Rock, are single digits or so. Sad. I hope I'm wrong on my info.

[Eagle7]

The numbers I've heard for the two schools up here, one at New Hampshire, and one at Lime Rock, are single digits or so. Sad. I hope I'm wrong on my info.
Eleven at the GLD school this month.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So in order to really judge, you need to tally the students from all the schools in the Northeast up until this weekend. Just like regional racing, the more schools you have, the more they get watered down and are now money losers depending on the time of year.

[JLawton]

The numbers I've heard for the two schools up here, one at New Hampshire, and one at Lime Rock, are single digits or so. Sad. I hope I'm wrong on my info.
Nope, you're right. i think some other things come into play though. There is now an early school at NJMP that a lot of guys go to, the NHMS school is now a single that's in May instead of April and it's only two weeks before the Lime Rock school.

[gran racing]

SCCA should be member driven (NASA allows their members to create rules for the class they drive in).

My Prelude classification in NASA basically went like this. "Heard you were pretty fast in that car. What's the SCCA weight? What's the weight of other Honda's in SCCA? Lets add 50 pounds to your SCCA weight and that should be about right." So no real look or discussions were had, and they used a very conservative approach. Funny how other Hondas were 50 - 100 lbs lower than the SCCA weight. Even funnier when I did a race or two, then I decided it wasn't for me, they said they'd lower the weight of the car to keep me coming back. Now granted I have to believe this isn't the norm.

Each organization has its pros and cons. NASA IMO moves too quickly yet SCCA is on the other extreme which takes forever for things to get done / change.

It'll be interesting to watch ChumpCar progress. I do like what they're trying to do.

[TStiles]

Schools ? , We ( SW Division ) don't need no stinking Schools !

Can't remember the last school we had ... Can't blame the host region because they know there going to loose a ton on a school ... Going to need to change the GCR to fix some of the structural issues that hurt our long term market share.

When somebody asks me how to start in SCCA racing , I have to tell them to go get a NASA license and use it in SCCA.

That's simply not sustainable

[downingracing]

...When somebody asks me how to start in SCCA racing , I have to tell them to go get a NASA license and use it in SCCA...

Really??? The fastest way to get a license is to do the SCCA 2x school weekend and you've got a novice permit to go racing!! How much easier should it be? One weekend of your time and you can go racing. There are schools all over the country and lets call it Thursday evening to Monday afternoon to get there and get back. You can travel +/-750 miles in that time and do the school. This is 2 days off work and a weekend of time to go from no license to having the novice permit and going racing! Might not be a school in your back yard, but this is the upcoming schedule for drivers schools per the SCCA website:

6/8/2012
Summer School/School's Out at Lime Rock Park
Lime Rock Park
New England Region (http://www.ner.org/)

7/21/2012
Drivers School/Regional/PDX/TES at Sebring-Short Course
Sebring International Raceway
Central Florida Region (http://www.cfrscca.org/)

8/4/2012
Drivers School/Test Day/SARRC at Atlanta Motorsport Park
Atlanta Motorsport Park
Atlanta Region (http://www.atlantascca.org/)

10/4/2012
Last Chance of 2012 Driver School/Regional with Enduro at Watkins Glen Int'l
Watkins Glen International
Glen Region (http://www.glen-scca.org/)

[gran racing]

Just curious... for areas where both NASA and SCCA run events on the same tracks, how do the entry fees compare?


You can travel +/-750 miles in that time and do the school.

I'm sorry, but if I'm new to this game and on a modest budget my incentive to participate goes way down with the thought of traveling that far away. I'd probably also want to do it at a track I've driven before.

[TStiles]

Really??? The fastest way to get a license is to do the SCCA 2x school weekend and you've got a novice permit to go racing!! How much easier should it be? One weekend of your time and you can go racing. There are schools all over the country and lets call it Thursday evening to Monday afternoon to get there and get back. You can travel +/-750 miles in that time and do the school. This is 2 days off work and a weekend of time to go from no license to having the novice permit and going racing! Might not be a school in your back yard, but this is the upcoming schedule for drivers schools per the SCCA website:

6/8/2012
Summer School/School's Out at Lime Rock Park
Lime Rock Park
New England Region (http://www.ner.org/)

7/21/2012
Drivers School/Regional/PDX/TES at Sebring-Short Course
Sebring International Raceway
Central Florida Region (http://www.cfrscca.org/)

8/4/2012
Drivers School/Test Day/SARRC at Atlanta Motorsport Park
Atlanta Motorsport Park
Atlanta Region (http://www.atlantascca.org/)

10/4/2012
Last Chance of 2012 Driver School/Regional with Enduro at Watkins Glen Int'l
Watkins Glen International
Glen Region (http://www.glen-scca.org/)

Atlanta is the closest of these to Houston , last time I did the Atlanta tow was to the Runoffs and it was something like 14 hrs. Not too many new racers are going to make that tow when they can tow 1.5 hrs to the NASA Comp School .

If they are larger budget guys the MSRH school is another option , but that's $$$

[downingracing]

...
I'm sorry, but if I'm new to this game and on a modest budget my incentive to participate goes way down with the thought of traveling that far away. I'd probably also want to do it at a track I've driven before.

I can appreciate that view - But the other side of that is for my first school (and on a modest budget), I went to Summit Point (350 miles away) and had never turned a single lap on a race track (any track - ever). I wanted to get my competition license and this was the first of Two schools required at the time. I did this school in the fall and the school (closer to home) at Nelson in the spring. Then started racing 4-8 weekends a year and have been since 1999.

I wanted to go racing and did what I needed to do to get my license. I wasn't spending big bucks (FAR from it), but for all the expense of a race weekend/drivers school - the cost of the tow isn't even a set of race brake pads (for a truck and open trailer - even at $3.75/gal). If you've got a motorhome and enclosed trailer - you are not running with a modest budget. :)

[TStiles]

Just curious... for areas where both NASA and SCCA run events on the same tracks, how do the entry fees compare?


.

Typical SW Division races are $ 450 - $ 500 ... We run 1 Q session and 1 Race session per day.

I think NASA Texas races are $ 300 - $ 350 ... I think they run 4 short sessions on Sat and 3 on Sun

I've never run a NASA event , but I've taken a hard look at it. If the IT type classes
( PT ) were stronger and not running with SM , I would not hesitate to run with them

Looks like we are in the middle of a market share shift in Texas
- SCCA entries appear to be down again
- SCCA IT has gotten very weak down here
- NASA entries for SM have been 2x what SCCA SM have been
- ChumpCar had 50+ cars for the 24 hour race a couple of weeks ago

I've been running SW Division SCCA off and on since 1987 , It's were I want to run , but the market for new racers needs to change for us to remain a viable option for large numbers of new racers that are vital for a sustainable club.

[Cobrar05]

Been down but a decent uptick this year. I think we had 100 entries at school in 2003, my school year. Under 40 for the last several but up to just over 50 this year.

Economy and Chump/Lemons I think are driving the numbers down. I see Chump/Lemons as a fad. It won't go away but it's popularity will die down as it sorts itself out into the haves and have nots as all popular series do (SRF....SM....Spec E30...IT).

We have a lot of customer service issues to fix, but if the racing stays like it was this weekend at CMP, I'm staying SCCA. Good friends, well prepped and driven RACE cars without cows on the roof, driven to the max, balls out for a 30 min sprint race. That's my personal preference for racing and SCCA delivers.

this weekend was the two sides of the scca. 4 races for the small bore cars. 2 races for the v8 cars. i saw what? 8 v8 cars in their group. the turnout overall was down, was it not? and....when the racing was good, it was very good.

business was solid for a photographer. the atmposphere was nice. i was sold on building an inexpensive ITS Mustang while at the same time sold that bringing my FR500C to an SCCA event is a waste of time.

its funny. i talked to ricky about buying a SM or even his spare ITR BMW. i tried to learn all i could about the v6 mustang program. at the same time saw not a single car in my class at the event.

[JeffYoung]

Overall turnout for the CMP Memorial Day races was down but has been up at the other races I've run this year at VIR.

SCCA's rule set is more structured, as you have found out. Someone explained it thusly to me:

1. SCCA: We write the rules and you build the car to the rules.

2. NASA: You build the car and we write the rules to allow it to run.

V8 cars have a lot of places to run in SCCA but it is structured. Your car has a few places but they are limited, I agree.

Ricky's BMW is well done by the way.

[jhooten]

downracing,

I can tell you a much easier way. Run a couple chumpcar/lemons races then ask the SCCA divisional licensing administrator for a novice license.

[gran racing]

I totally appreciate that and many of us did what ever it took to make it. However, how many people are willing to make those sacrifices? Multiple days off from work, long tow, unfamiliar track which can make the school even more intimidating, time away from home (potentially a not enthusiastic wife; maybe kids).

NASA does, or at least did, a great job incorporating the schools into their raceweekend. It makes it more attractive to partipate.

We talk about how car counts are down. Not sure why regions couldn't fill one or two sessions with HPDEs. It's pretty obvious that SCCA needs to modify it's structure a bit and how events are held.

Upcoming HPDE at Lime rock has been sold out for a bit now. $345 for one day, 4 sessions per driver, 3 groups plus one for instructors. There are people out there willing to pay for track time.


I can tell you a much easier way. Run a couple chumpcar/lemons races then ask the SCCA divisional licensing administrator for a novice license.

That's the problem. We continue to sell people on SCCA's program, suggest they go somewhere else to get started, and expect them to come back. A person starts in chump/lemons, makes friends, has a good time... They're probably going to stay there for a while.

[downingracing]

downracing,

I can tell you a much easier way. Run a couple chumpcar/lemons races then ask the SCCA divisional licensing administrator for a novice license.

How is that easier? One long weekend and you're done vs. 2-3 weekends (at maybe less of a tow, but still not cheap) and then try to get a novice permit on that experience?

Around my neck of the woods - we do not have time on a race weekend for a school or even a PDX. Race weekends are full of race cars and races. PDX days are done on Friday and are often full. I'm not seeing the issues othes are seeing in their regions. I guess the answer may be to have some choices/options based on where you are... Not a one-size fits all model for everything. Things don't seem to be broken around here so maybe that is why I can't see value to the changes...

And my .02¢ - I would never recommend one of these other groups for someone to run with. I've got my reasons and am happy to share them in person over beers. I know that means that the day the S club goes away - I'm done with racing and I'm OK with that. That is why I'm involved and doing what I can with my club to make events a success. :D

[TStiles]

I guess the answer may be to have some choices/options based on where you are... Not a one-size fits all model for everything. Things don't seem to be broken around here so maybe that is why I can't see value to the changes... :D

Agreed ... The club appears to be healthy in some regions / divisions and weak in others. I think it's always been that way , but maybe more of a challenge these days.

I spent a long time doing turnarounds , and I learned long ago that every market is different and what works in one part of the country may not work in another.

Glad your division is strong :023:

[spawpoet]

NASA does, or at least did, a great job incorporating the schools into their raceweekend. It makes it more attractive to partipate.

We talk about how car counts are down. Not sure why regions couldn't fill one or two sessions with HPDEs. It's pretty obvious that SCCA needs to modify it's structure a bit and how events are held.



CFR is doing just what you are suggesting with their two schools. The Daytona school is run in conjunction with a PDX. They just use a tiny infield course so it's perfect for PDX, but wouldn't be so hot for a regular Club Racing event. When they do the school on Sebring short course they have the school sessions, PDX sessions, a vintage group, and a Spec car (SM/SRF) enduro. When I ran the school they had several experienced racers who wanted track time mixed in with our run groups, and I know it really helped me pick up lines. IMHO I'm not sure why SCCA has traditionally run schools as completely stand alone events. There's no reason you can't mix at least some race group sessions in with them.

[jumbojimbo]

...Around my neck of the woods - we do not have time on a race weekend for a school or even a PDX. Race weekends are full of race cars and races....

Sometimes. It is true in GL that if we run 6 run groups there is no room for PDX/school. But we don't always have enough cars to justify 6 run groups. I think we ran 4 run groups at Nelson once last year. That still doesn't free up enough time to stick in a PDX, but it is close.

The problem with that model is that it jams a whole bunch of race classes together. Some people would say too many. I would agree with that, I would avoid a regional weekend (grand am at MO is an exception) where all of IT were in one group. My class would never get to race with each other, fun would be low. And don't bother trying to sell me on how fun it is to race ITS cares running ITC lap times.

There might, might be room for a PDX in some race weekends, but it will negatively impact the customers we already have. I don't mind sacrificing a little for the good of club, but I'm not interested in giving away 70% of my fun on a regular basis.

Also, the races that might have room for a PDX are not at the tracks that will attract PDX people. Mid-Ohio races don't have room, Nelson might. Several times they have tried PDX's with races at Nelson and gotten low single digit car counts. You aren't going to get Corvettes and Ferraris at Nelson. You aren't going to have room for for PDX at MO.

[Cobrar05]

Overall turnout for the CMP Memorial Day races was down but has been up at the other races I've run this year at VIR.

SCCA's rule set is more structured, as you have found out. Someone explained it thusly to me:

1. SCCA: We write the rules and you build the car to the rules.

2. NASA: You build the car and we write the rules to allow it to run.

V8 cars have a lot of places to run in SCCA but it is structured. Your car has a few places but they are limited, I agree.

Ricky's BMW is well done by the way.

if ricky is going to take a car to charlotte in august, i may see about taking one of his cars on a rental to run under the lights.

here's what i dont understand. world challenge gt, gts and tc, trans am, and mx5 cup are scca pro racing. there should be a matching class in club racing for these cars to run as a ladder from club racing to pro. that i could buy any of those cars except a trans am/gt1 car and not have an established class to run the car in makes absolutely no sense.

[jhooten]

How is that easier? One long weekend and you're done vs. 2-3 weekends (at maybe less of a tow, but still not cheap) and then try to get a novice permit on that experience?

No classroom, No GCR test, No course walks. You have the others on your team to help prep and maintain the car, which you probably do not own. You have a few full time mentors instead of a guy who comes up after the session and offers a 30 second critique before heading back to the AC. You don't have to drive (to La Junta or Hallett) for 12 to 20 hours to attend a school or wait for a year or two until there is one closer.

Face it an SCCA "school" is not a learning event. It is a written test and a few sessions of remote viewing to determine if the "student" is semi-prepared and could be granted a novice permit. There is very little teaching done at one.

[dickita15]

Face it an SCCA "school" is not a learning event. It is a written test and a few sessions of remote viewing to determine if the "student" is semi-prepared and could be granted a novice permit. There is very little teaching done at one.

There are a lot of good points to think about in this thread and a lot SCCA can learn in order to do it all better but I have to comment on this one. If that the way schools you have been to are run they are doing it wrong. While it is true that most students these days have track experience there is lot of learning going on in the schools around here. There are observers on every corner giving feedback every session and multiple on track instructors pushing and probing students to give them experience situations it would take years to be in otherwise.

[downingracing]

No classroom, No GCR test, No course walks. You have the others on your team to help prep and maintain the car, which you probably do not own. You have a few full time mentors instead of a guy who comes up after the session and offers a 30 second critique before heading back to the AC. You don't have to drive (to La Junta or Hallett) for 12 to 20 hours to attend a school or wait for a year or two until there is one closer.

Face it an SCCA "school" is not a learning event. It is a written test and a few sessions of remote viewing to determine if the "student" is semi-prepared and could be granted a novice permit. There is very little teaching done at one.

I don't know how schools are done where you are... Around here - there is plenty of teaching and learning going on at a school. And the classroom and GCR test are (again - around here) good to review flags, procedure and have some basic conversations about racing and the 'line'.

It sounds like wherever you are really needs a lesson in 'how to do it' when it comes to school and licensing. Even with low(er) turnouts at schools around here recently, the quality of instruction is top notch.

If someone is looking to put out a very little bit of money and very limited time - then one of those other methods are probably fine (if they overlook all the shortcomings of those groups). If they are even remotely serious about racing - they will purchase a car, go to a school and get a license. It is nice to race close to home, but travel for a hobby is not a big deal. If it is - you are in the wrong hobby. Heck - We travel 4-8 hours for travel sports for the kids weekly.

I would never recommend any other group for someone to race with. That is my view and I know others have a different view. (and that is fine)

[TStiles]

No classroom, No GCR test, No course walks. You have the others on your team to help prep and maintain the car, which you probably do not own. You have a few full time mentors instead of a guy who comes up after the session and offers a 30 second critique before heading back to the AC. You don't have to drive (to La Junta or Hallett) for 12 to 20 hours to attend a school or wait for a year or two until there is one closer.

Face it an SCCA "school" is not a learning event. It is a written test and a few sessions of remote viewing to determine if the "student" is semi-prepared and could be granted a novice permit. There is very little teaching done at one.

Great points Jerry

I've instructed at SCCA schools and at HPDE schools. I can assure you , my students from an HPDE weekend are better prepared to be on track than my SCCA school students ever were.

With The Driver's Edge HPDE , the green students are in the classroom after almost every session with excellent instruction , they have an instructor in the car , they get written feedback , ect. The only thing they don't get is open passing and practice starts.

Today's new blood is questioning our SCCA process that requires buying / renting a safety compliant car , full safety gear , medical exam , traveling long distances , ect. before they can even go on track ... That system worked when we were the only game in town , but today's new blood has typically been to multiple HPDE's , are often just as quick as the SCCA licensed drivers , and have a solid understanding of what's going on ... The answer might be for SCCA to accept the HPDE / Chump / Lemons guys & gals on track experience and require a ground school that is SCCA specific.

Any way you slice it , we need to figure out how to lower the barriers to entry.

[red986s]

Today's new blood is questioning our SCCA process that requires buying / renting a safety compliant car , full safety gear , medical exam.....

Is that because of the insurance/lawsuits? It's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that NASA, Lemons, Chump etc. don't necessarily have the same coverage SCCA does.

[seckerich]

SCCA has approved "alternate driver schools" for this year where an approved coach can give the GCR test and work with students at a test day, etc to get them licensed. The national office is getting it and is working with regions to make it easier to race with SCCA. CCR has already held one and will do more as students want to get racing. Talk to your local RE.

[jhooten]

There are a lot of good points to think about in this thread and a lot SCCA can learn in order to do it all better but I have to comment on this one. If that the way schools you have been to are run they are doing it wrong. While it is true that most students these days have track experience there is lot of learning going on in the schools around here. There are observers on every corner giving feedback every session and multiple on track instructors pushing and probing students to give them experience situations it would take years to be in otherwise.

I went to SCCA Schools in three different divisions either for myself or as "crew" for someone else. They were all done the same way.

Study the GCR before you arrive.

2-3 hour classroom session on Friday evening consisting of what to expect during the school, how an SCCA event normally progresses, flags, some GCR, and filling out paperwork.

Open book GCR/flag written test Friday evening.

Satuday morning course walk with your instructor. Then two or three on track sessions consisting of different flagging situations and how you responded to them followed by a short debriefing with your instructor. Each instructor averaged about five "students" limiting the amount of time that could be spent with each.

Another on track session followed by a "Practice" race in the afternoon. Then a meeting in the classroom with the Chief Steward followed by individual meetings with the CS to be told if you passed and would be given a novice permit and allowed to race in the regional on Sunday or be required to attend another school.

From the times I have worked tech at schools over the years I have not seen much change in the format. No, I won't name names or point fingers.

[Terry Hanushek]

Jerry


I went to SCCA Schools in three different divisions either for myself or as "crew" for someone else. They were all done the same way.

Study the GCR before you arrive.

2-3 hour classroom session on Friday evening consisting of what to expect during the school, how an SCCA event normally progresses, flags, some GCR, and filling out paperwork.

Open book GCR/flag written test Friday evening.

Satuday morning course walk with your instructor. Then two or three on track sessions consisting of different flagging situations and how you responded to them followed by a short debriefing with your instructor. Each instructor averaged about five "students" limiting the amount of time that could be spent with each.

Another on track session followed by a "Practice" race in the afternoon. Then a meeting in the classroom with the Chief Steward followed by individual meetings with the CS to be told if you passed and would be given a novice permit and allowed to race in the regional on Sunday or be required to attend another school.

From the times I have worked tech at schools over the years I have not seen much change in the format. No, I won't name names or point fingers.

I must concur with Dick that the schools you have experienced are not very good examples. You have outlined the basic structure of a traditional two day drivers school. What is missing or not reported is the amount of classroom time during the event. My experience with schools at Summit Point, Pocono and NJMP is there is at least as much classroom time during the day as there is track time. The sessions provide instructor feedback, presentations of technique and discussions of race craft - all aimed at preparing students to drive better in competition (RACE). Your student / instructor ratio is really out of whack with my experience - I have seen many of our schools with a 1:1 ratio and never more than 2:1.

I also echo Steve's comment that alternate drivers schools are being developed to address the recent trend of prospective drivers with considerable driving experience at track days. I believe that just about every racing region in NEDiv is in the process of establishing this type of school. One positive example that SCCA is adapting to the current reality.

YMMV

Terry

[Z3_GoCar]

I have to agree with Jerry, I had three other guys sharing my instructor. Not a big deal for me, I raced Karts so I knew how a race is run, and what the flags mean, taken greens and had wave-off starts. Where we get the 1-on-1 instructing is the open wheel guys where we only get like 3 students... Closed wheel would be like 15-20 students.

Back to the OP's point, if there are only 2-double weekends where they allow your class to run, I say good on you for finding someone else to race with.

[JLawton]

The racers that come out of the NER schools are prepared to race. They don't get signed off until we, as instructors would race door handle to door handle with them. I had one student this past weekend and can honestly say I spent at LEAST a full hour doing lead/follow and pushing him hard under race conditions. I probably spent at least another hour discussing not only his driving but how to handle race situations and race craft. I also checked in with him several times during the race weekend to see how he was doing and if he had questions. I then gave him my card and told him to contact me if he had ANY questions. I feel as an instructor our jobs don't end after we walk out of the class room. I would certainly rather race with him than someone who was thrown into a race at Lemons or Chump. Yeah, it may be easier but it sure as hell doesn't produce good, safe racers............

[jhooten]

Jerry
What is missing or not reported is the amount of classroom time during the event.

Terry

I listed all the classroom time received in my summary.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Back to the OP's point, if there are only 2-double weekends where they allow your class to run, I say good on you for finding someone else to race with.

Agreed 100%. You have to find the club that best fits your needs. Not a shot an any one club but it's just a fact.

[Terry Hanushek]

Jerry


I listed all the classroom time received in my summary.

I realize that you listed the classroom session on Friday evening along with 2-3 'brief' instructor debriefings (one on one?, one on five?). What I was trying to highlight is that there was no mention of classroom sessions on Saturday / Sunday during the school. Schools that I have observed locally probably have as much classroom time during Sat / Sun as there is track time - feedback, instruction, discussions in addition to the Friday evening 'introduction' session. That is what I meant by missing classroom time.

Terry

[jhooten]

Jerry



I realize that you listed the classroom session on Friday evening along with 2-3 'brief' instructor debriefings (one on one?, one on five?). What I was trying to highlight is that there was no mention of classroom sessions on Saturday / Sunday during the school. Schools that I have observed locally probably have as much classroom time during Sat / Sun as there is track time - feedback, instruction, discussions in addition to the Friday evening 'introduction' session. That is what I meant by missing classroom time.

Terry


Didn't list what didn't occur. If you were not on the track or preping your car you were expected to observe the on track activities. The instructor debrief was as a group if all went well and 1-1 if the instructor had something specific for you.

Maybe I need to get out more and go see how things are done in other parts of the country.

[JIgou]

A few thoughts from someone not directly a part of MiDiv leadership, but I know a fair amount about the sausage and how it's made....

1. Ralf, we'll have some divisional and national leadership at the race this weekend. If they haven't heard from you already, I'd LOVE for them to hear you face-to-face - you've got valid points all across the board. It's too bad a bunch of folks jumped ship (*cough*TONY*cough*) because of a bad end to 2011 and unclear start to 2012 - I know that DMVR recognizes the importance of the IT groups, as is evidenced elsewhere on this site - we've tried to make MAM attractive for everyone! (If only we could fix the paddock so the formula car guys could come out and play too....)

2. The Majors / Invitational program really screwed with ALL of us, IMHO. It was VERY unclear how the program was to be laid out when it was jammed down our throats at the last minute EXTREMELY late in the scheduling cycle last year, and I don't know if everyone involved understands it YET.

3. The IT group for MAM this coming weekend shows 21 entries. Not the biggest the group has ever been....but not bad.

4. We have at least two drivers (three, counting family members) registered for the upcoming weekend who ran in our regional-only Chumpcar catchall class during school and events last year. I've been told they've got "real" (whatever that means) SCCA cars this year. One other guy bought an SCCA car over the winter, but I don't see him registered for this event.

5. NASA is alive here, but based on results that I'm seeing far from well. I hope for those guys' sake things pick up for them. I could / should / might eyeball a couple of their events.

Jarrod

PS: Pulled pork for Friday night's party....

[forestdweller37]

4. We have at least two drivers (three, counting family members) registered for the upcoming weekend who ran in our regional-only Chumpcar catchall class during school and events last year. I've been told they've got "real" (whatever that means) SCCA cars this year. One other guy bought an SCCA car over the winter, but I don't see him registered for this event.

Jarrod

PS: Pulled pork for Friday night's party....

Hey! ANY weekend other than my wife's birthday...:rolleyes:
(I'll be at DMVR's fall race :eclipsee_steering:)

[Ralf]

Jarrod,
Come find me if I don't find you first. Would love to talk to them. I'm sure Brett and Mitch would have some good input also.

[RX555]

Bzzzt: 404 error, logic not found
I don't understand this comment. I'm allowed to have my opinion just as you are yours. My point is to not let running for points in your division get in the way of getting the race car out and using it where you can.



Chumpcar is DIFFERRENT. And you can't compare the two and eliminate the economy, because LeMons/Chumpcar isn't the same thing, AND it's cheaper

I don't seem them as different. Both involve running crappy cars with a cage and cars that look like, well, crap.


You said it yourself, you are tired of chasing points, going for the championship, going for the wins.

I think you misread my post as I have never run for points or championships. Some have and they usually burn out fast or can't afford it very long. I've never had any goals of winning anything other than maybe my class.


1- Families are more demographic than they once were. The average SCCA guy gets his marching orders from his wife. Kids to soccer this weekend, Daughter is singing in a play the following weekend, and the son is in a swim meet the following, and Dad better be present. That isn't how it used to be. Shop time is reduced, personal free time is reduced, and available weekends are reduced. Therefor entries are down.
2- Costs ARE up. To get my car back on the track this year, and to be as safe I was last year, I will need to spend over $2K on safety gear, and arguably I'll be less safe.

All good points, but hopefully you aren't one of those guys who think the H&N device makes you less safe.

[Cobrar05]

wait, someone is blaming the fall off in scca car count over the recent years on head and neck restraint?

[Spinnetti]

wait, someone is blaming the fall off in scca car count over the recent years on head and neck restraint?

It kept me out of SCCA events this year.... I just ran Lemons instead...

[tom91ita]

wait, someone is blaming the fall off in scca car count over the recent years on head and neck restraint?

My membership lapsed after 26 years. I no longer have a SCCA license and have two lemons events on my calendar.

And I have a sfi approved device.

[tom91ita]

Rx555

Our lemons car is an old SCCA itc car. We did put 4 door civic fenders on it instead of crx plastic fenders but it is relatively clean. And has a brand new fuel cell.

[ShelbyRacer]

All good points, but hopefully you aren't one of those guys who think the H&N device makes you less safe.


Jake's not necessarily saying that a HNR makes you less safe, I believe that he, and several others including myself, are saying that the SFI requirement makes it so that we cannot use the device which we feel is better, and that we have to shell out big $$$ to get a device that doesn't do as good of a job, or creates other issues (like belts not being able to be tightened properly).

[gran racing]

wait, someone is blaming the fall off in scca car count over the recent years on head and neck restraint?

If I were relying on my ITB car, it would have pushed me over edge just enough to at least take a year off from racing. As it is, I borrowed one for my last race, borrowing a one for a test & tune, and borrowing for other future races this year (thankfully three people I know have them and are nice enough to let me use it). I don't think it's the cause of the drop off, but it adds yet one more layer to affording the entry to this hobby.

[Spinnetti]

My membership lapsed after 26 years. I no longer have a SCCA license and have two lemons events on my calendar.

And I have a sfi approved device.

Has it been that long? You pipped me by a year! I do remeber our early ITA years with fondness though. After all those years, I think I finally decided to sell the Corolla when I get my next street car in a few years. Its no good sitting unused in the garage.

BTW, we just bought our next Lemons car - a 67 Datsun SRL roadster..... more crazy builds coming!