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Flyinglizard
05-16-2012, 09:57 AM
If anyone else sees a reason or market for the "ITJ" class, please let me know.
The basic rules that I am looking at are.
Chumpcar/Lemons;
SCCA or more cage,sillplates etc are allowed ,no max floor plate area. No straight tubing past the wheels, other than core support. No tube frames. No gutting of the crush zones.
SCCA safety rules; other wise

DOT 190 tires, max width 205, for all cars and any wheels.

" Chumpcar" body rules, min 60% of stock panels, (by piece count not square in.)
Stock glass, lexan or remove glass.
Stock or equivalent throttle body area.
Stock exhaust manifold
93DB sound
No fuel rigs, "Chumpcar" standard fuel jugs only.
2 Drivers per race, 5 min stop , clocked on the lap timer( over 1 hr).
Normal sprint races.
I will present this set to the CFR and FR and maybe Atlanta region , RE, after the Daytona race.
MM

Chip42
05-16-2012, 12:28 PM
I personally hate the idea. Chump and lemmons in their on group maybe, but not mixed with the others. There was a junker that officials put in ITA at the last daytona weekend.BMW 525 I think. Dog slow in the corners, fast in the straits. Got in the middle of races for cars actually prepared to run in that group.

Flyinglizard
05-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Funny that you can say Daytona and "corners" in the same sentence. It is what it is I guess.
ITA had one driver, ITO( Crap can) had one driver, about the same lap times. So without the crapcan the driver would have been out by himself. As it was, they had some sort of a race.
results show; ITC maybe 3 cars, ITB 4 cars, .
Granted, it is track specific , the slow cars dont like the60sec of noise,followed by 30sec of 4 turns.

Flyinglizard
05-17-2012, 09:53 AM
132 cars registered for Chumpcar- Daytona, 5/27, 14 hr race. 125 will start.
Each car has at least 4 drivers. ( my team has 16 people)
Each car has paid 900$ reg fee.
I think that the key to getting some of these drivers, is that the team of 4, will hamper the results of the best drivers. The best drivers want to control the race outcome for themselves.
That could be the SCCA market nitch. letting the best drivers run the ITJ car for sprint races or 2 driver , short enduros .
IMHO. MM

Ron Earp
05-17-2012, 10:04 AM
A couple of Lemons/Chump drivers came over to the StangWerks Sunday afternoon to have a look at our cars. They have two V6 Mustangs they're racing in teh "crapcan" series. After talking with them a couple of hours a few things were clear:

*They have the skills to build a winning IT car.

*They can drive. Both do lots of DE days with two sports car clubs in the area plus test days. They have dedicated track cars (both V8 Mustangs). One guy just ordered a brand new 2013 Boss Stang. They probably get more track time that we do.

*They are well funded. They haven't spent IT-money on their cars, but they aren't far from it. They have certainly spent a good amount of time in the garage.

But in talking to them about SCCA racing, well, they just aren't that interested in learning about it or doing it. To them, they're racing, racing hard, and most importantly, they're having a ball. They're inviting us to come watch them and help at "enduro events", where the "real racing happens". They do not perceive SCCA as the pinaccle of amateur racing, if anything they consider NASA a more prestigious club but also think it is expensive based on what they have seen at NASA events (I tend to agree here, some of the NASA cars are huge money).

I too believe the SCCA is going to lose out on a bunch of potential racers if they cannot in some way accommodate, or at least attract, these racers. Maybe instead of running full page ads in magazines for SCCA races the local SCCA needs to come up with a booth type advertisement that highlights various transitions from Crapcan to SCCA, setup a table at a crapcan race, and talk to people about it.

I dunno. 125 cars starting at $1000 a pop is serious business.

R

Flyinglizard
05-17-2012, 10:19 AM
The market is so strong that I am taking the glass out of 2 pretty nice IT cars this week, to run them in Chump. I get about 4 SCCA rentals per year now. I will have 8 rental drivers at Chump Daytona, 12 @ Sebring, 8 @ Road Atlanta. About 1/3 have or have had SCCA memberships.

Maybe SCCA is the stepping stone to Chump already. Maybe the SCCA system/business model is not what these guys want.

TStiles
05-17-2012, 01:57 PM
132 cars registered for Chumpcar- Daytona, 5/27, 14 hr race. 125 will start.
Each car has at least 4 drivers. ( my team has 16 people)
Each car has paid 900$ reg fee.
I think that the key to getting some of these drivers, is that the team of 4, will hamper the results of the best drivers. The best drivers want to control the race outcome for themselves.
That could be the SCCA market nitch. letting the best drivers run the ITJ car for sprint races or 2 driver , short enduros .
IMHO. MM

We've got about 60 cars ( that's at least 300 drivers ) for the 24 Hour Chump race at TWS this weekend. Lots of SCCA drivers in the field. Some with serious efforts , some with just for fun efforts.

The team of 4 thing can be good and bad. When you get 4 guys together that are on the same page and similar skills , it's great. Sometimes it's tough to get 4 funded drivers together. I watched our car owner struggle to develop a team in his 1st few races. ( we've got 7 drivers for this weekend's event )

I've got an SM with a never touched motor that I'm considering Chumpizing , would love to see some SCCA races ( sprint or short enduro ) for this car on 190 treadwear tires. Of course the challenge is finding the run group for these cars to run.

At the end of the day , our club needs to do what it needs to do to remain relevant. I keep hearing people say it's just the economy , but Chump / Lemons are doing just fine. That's market share not just economy.

Knestis
05-17-2012, 06:00 PM
The more I look at this question, the more I think it might come down to the tires.

It's not the enduro format that is the super-mojo for Chump. We have long races with 4 driver teams in SCCA. The problem is that I need to get enough $$ from each driver to not go broke fielding the team, and a chunk of that goes to tires.

We talked a little about it at NJMP last week and there were some nodding heads when I said I'd be totally FINE if everyone in the IT field were on cheap DOT 190 tires - enduro or sprint.

K

TStiles
05-17-2012, 06:02 PM
The more I look at this question, the more I think it might come down to the tires.

We talked a little about it at NJMP last week and there were some nodding heads when I said I'd be totally FINE if everyone in the IT field were on cheap DOT 190 tires - enduro or sprint.

K

Ding , Ding , Ding ... We have a winner :happy204:

Flyinglizard
05-18-2012, 12:06 PM
Copy that on tires. I have my CC set up with soft rear springs, almost no camber, and lots of air. This wears the tire a little in the middle and can swap onto the same side fronts. We get about 20hrs on a set of tires. Unless my Son drives.
My setup has moved to a push also, so that more drivers can touch the brakes mid turn and not spin. We were running over cars in the turns and would spin, upon a heavy lift or brake. Now , more drivers can ,as a team, put down more laps over the same time. The lap times are way closer.
When the car was nice and balanced, some drivers would be 3-4 sec faster , But 2-3 spins per race would cost us a few laps.
MM

forestdweller37
05-20-2012, 06:41 PM
The more I look at this question, the more I think it might come down to the tires.

It's not the enduro format that is the super-mojo for Chump. We have long races with 4 driver teams in SCCA. The problem is that I need to get enough $$ from each driver to not go broke fielding the team, and a chunk of that goes to tires.

We talked a little about it at NJMP last week and there were some nodding heads when I said I'd be totally FINE if everyone in the IT field were on cheap DOT 190 tires - enduro or sprint.

K

SCCA already maintains some great "road tire" rules over on the Solo side. They're 140+ tread wear with an exclusion list. Having run with both SCCA Solo and Chumpcar, SCCA's "road tire" rules are superior imho. The 190TW rule makes it a 1-make show (Dunlop Star Spec) and that tire is soon to be discontinued. The 140TW rating opens up more opportunities, sizes, etc. The wear characteristics of these tires in Solo competition have proven to be comparable to the Star Spec. This is an opportunity for SCCA.

It's true that SCCA runs a few endurance races. Unfortunately there are not nearly enough of them to base a team around.

Lemons and Chumpcar are not without their weaknesses. The real cost of the cars can be comparable to building an IT car. Less is spent on high performance parts, but due to the poor condition of the donors, more is frequently spent on initial maintenance. Due to the potential of inexperienced drivers, the courses are often “dumbed down”. An example is Chumpcar using the motorcycle “bend” prior to the Kink at Road America. Also neither series will allow a traditional 2x2 rolling start; the cars circulate the track spread out at random until a green flag is flown. Frustration with the performance disparity between cars is starting to show in Chumpcar. Inter-personal conflicts within the teams is another potential pitfall of their model or any multi-driver endurance series.

Since I'm stranded in an airport with nothing else to do, what do ya'll think of this format for a race weekend?

Begin with a distance-based (vs. time-based) multi-driver endurance series. Classing would be similar to that used for the "Devil in the Dark" race, i.e. 4 classes with the Solo 140TW tire rules applied for at least the two lower classes. The rules and format would need to be maintained and promoted by the National Office such that the rules, nationwide schedule, and results could be found in one central location on the web. This aspect would be important in attracting drivers from Lemons or Chumpcar who are used to this and also new drivers.

Friday: Registration opens similar to any club race weekend.

Saturday:
Multiple Heat Races - Each team will will field each of their drivers in a sprint race to earn points based on their finishing position to establish their starting position for Sunday's endurance race. An average of the finishing points would be used to equalize teams with different numbers of drivers. Any driver competing on Sunday will have to have competed in a heat race on Saturday. The purpose of Saturday from a "product" stand point is to give each driver an opportunity to excel individually and be the team hero for a time every race weekend. The "crapcan" series don't necessarily provide this experience for every driver.

Sunday:
Begin a single 500 mile race at 9:00am with as much "pomp and circumstance" as possible. A conventional 2x2 rolling start would be used and the race ends when the first car achieves a set number of laps. The finish should also be handled with "pomp and circumstance." Results should be posted on the National website asap upon completion of the race. Once again from a product standpoint, this single race would be treated as the focus of the weekend. Doing so allows everyone to focus on the same singular event and makes the results of the weekend easier to relate to the general public.

bhudson
05-22-2012, 02:25 PM
Chump or LeMons cars are welcome in the Atlanta Region ProIT races in the ITX class.

Flyinglizard
05-22-2012, 11:09 PM
Forest, Your schedule needs to be time limited.
Crap can racing runs about 150$ per hr of track time MOL.
We need to present a package that get s the racers on track for less than 200$ per hr. The races need to be at least 2hrs, so that 2 drivers can drive.

Draw1)Part of the draw of "CrapCan Racing" (CCR) is that the team buds build the car together. The one guy loading his FV all by himself does not exist in CCR. The guys have fun at the track, enroute, and fixing the car. How can we duplicate this?

Draw 2) The best cars cost about 5000$ all done. MOL
Old crappy IT cars are about the same. How can we duplicate this?

Draw 3) races are 7 hr or more. Lots of stuff happens, the fast cars seldom win. Teams tow 10hrs or more very often. How can we compete? (We have Canadian teams coming to FL for Daytona)
I see very little market to run these cars in the normal SCCA sprint format. The guys just dont see the reason to prep cars for months, tow for hrs. and race for one or maybe 2 hours per weekend. Chumpcar looses racers when they shorten races from 14hr to 8.

Draw 4) write the check and race. No med other than the drivers license. Can we change to something like this?

Draw 5) Night racing. ..
I had 3 drivers doing rock/paper/scissors, to see who got to drive in the dark, in the rain, @ Sebring, with no roof.

I would like to see a "Twilight Endurance Series". Race from maybe 5:00 till 9 or 10 pm.
Allow IT cars,prod cars, ITJ/CCR cars, all on 190 or 180 or higher tread wear tires. Max width of 205 mm
Any wheel. No fuel rigs! This lets the CCR guys come with their tires, the SCCA guys will have to buy tires anyway but not wheels. The 205s will go on up to 8in wide. All good. The 205 will limit the value of big power .( issue with Chumpcar, no tire width rule).
TEO for fast, TEU for less fast. 2 classes only
Allow the CCR drivers, school credit for the successful race.
Hand out the Novice permits post race and let them race on the book, from then on. WE have plenty of stewards to monitor the race and allow this to happen.
I' d be happy to put together some guidelines, but this is most of it.
MM
PS. the car below , was the car above.

dickita15
05-23-2012, 05:53 AM
Allow the CCR drivers, school credit for the successful race.
Hand out the Novice permits post race and let them race on the book, from then on. WE have plenty of stewards to monitor the race and allow this to happen.


By the way this is absolutely doable under alternate driver school options put in the GCR last year.

Spinnetti
05-23-2012, 08:19 AM
Forest, Your schedule needs to be time limited.
Crap can racing runs about 150$ per hr of track time MOL.
We need to present a package that get s the racers on track for less than 200$ per hr. The races need to be at least 2hrs, so that 2 drivers can drive.

Draw1)Part of the draw of "CrapCan Racing" (CCR) is that the team buds build the car together. The one guy loading his FV all by himself does not exist in CCR. The guys have fun at the track, enroute, and fixing the car. How can we duplicate this?

Draw 2) The best cars cost about 5000$ all done. MOL
Old crappy IT cars are about the same. How can we duplicate this?

Draw 3) races are 7 hr or more. Lots of stuff happens, the fast cars seldom win. Teams tow 10hrs or more very often. How can we compete? (We have Canadian teams coming to FL for Daytona)
I see very little market to run these cars in the normal SCCA sprint format. The guys just dont see the reason to prep cars for months, tow for hrs. and race for one or maybe 2 hours per weekend. Chumpcar looses racers when they shorten races from 14hr to 8.

Draw 4) write the check and race. No med other than the drivers license. Can we change to something like this?

Draw 5) Night racing. ..
I had 3 drivers doing rock/paper/scissors, to see who got to drive in the dark, in the rain, @ Sebring, with no roof.

I would like to see a "Twilight Endurance Series". Race from maybe 5:00 till 9 or 10 pm.
Allow IT cars,prod cars, ITJ/CCR cars, all on 190 or 180 or higher tread wear tires. Max width of 205 mm
Any wheel. No fuel rigs! This lets the CCR guys come with their tires, the SCCA guys will have to buy tires anyway but not wheels. The 205s will go on up to 8in wide. All good. The 205 will limit the value of big power .( issue with Chumpcar, no tire width rule).
TEO for fast, TEU for less fast. 2 classes only
Allow the CCR drivers, school credit for the successful race.
Hand out the Novice permits post race and let them race on the book, from then on. WE have plenty of stewards to monitor the race and allow this to happen.
I' d be happy to put together some guidelines, but this is most of it.
MM
PS. the car below , was the car above.


I like some of your ideas, comments below. For reference, I've built or participated in building 3 Lemons cars, and led two of the 3 teams.

1) No, that's true for some, but not everybody. There's nothing to differentiate between SCCA or CCR on this one. I was an IT guy first. I built the latest car by myself, and prefer it that way. I do it just like I did IT.. I prep well before the event, and barring any freak occurance, I don't work on the car at the track. I sure don't bring all kinds of spares. Oil, Trans fluid, and brake pads/rotors are about it. So, this one is neutral.

2) Yep - $5k is about right for a fast car, BUT - you get to build what YOU want, not some rule set that sweats you over bolt length or decal placement. THIS is the draw for me and why I left IT.

3) Mixed on this... I actually prefer the true 24 events the best - best test of man and machine. After one of those, I feel like I've accomplished something. A sprint race feels to me know like an autocross run used to. Given I've only got 2hrs of fuel endurance though, I'd say anything in 2hr increments is good - great way to run multiple drivers... I'd run a sprint race if it was close. Also good to test out the car before a Lemons race, but there's too many requirements.... Hans, Physicals, drivers schools, licenses etc.... no thanks. THIS is where you are losing people, not session length. I had the same "SCCA Attitude" at first with Lemons where you show up, pay $50 and you are a racer. Truth be told, the drivers are more courteous and less "demo derby" in Lemons than they are in IT - Another reason I prefer Lemons - I don't want the spec pinata guys in particular trashing my IT car for a plastic trophy.

4) Agree totally. SCCA=Hassle. Don't have time or the will to jump through those hoops anymore, though if it were easier I'd come back.

5) Yep... Night racing is fun, though I always keep the roof for rain reasons. I like the twilight idea.

Why are you trying to eliminate any car bigger than yours? The 205 tire limit is nuts. This is part of the "Stupid" rules that got me out of SCCA in the first place. I've got a great IT car, but I'll be damned if I'm going to throw out my new panasports and add 200# of lead because they reclassed me. It sits in the garage and I run lemons instead. Similarly, you limit what I can run, and I won't run your series either. My car came with 225's to start with - you'd force me to run an "unsafe" tire? Not likely. Your rule would eliminate any car bigger than yours... That's like saying everybody should run 345/30's... You'd lose 1/2 your potential customers right off the bat with either proposal. You've got all kinds of spec series already - let me build what and how I want.

Spinnetti
05-23-2012, 08:33 AM
The more I look at this question, the more I think it might come down to the tires.

It's not the enduro format that is the super-mojo for Chump. We have long races with 4 driver teams in SCCA. The problem is that I need to get enough $$ from each driver to not go broke fielding the team, and a chunk of that goes to tires.

We talked a little about it at NJMP last week and there were some nodding heads when I said I'd be totally FINE if everyone in the IT field were on cheap DOT 190 tires - enduro or sprint.

K

Yeah, Tires are a big factor... That would certainly reduce costs and make IT more attractive... I've gotten quite used to the 190's in Lemons, and its enough to be fun. There's no horrible street tire noises or anything.

Flyinglizard
05-23-2012, 09:32 AM
205 for the CCU class works fine . CCO can use anything.
Ihave issues with E 36 and big 6cyl cars running as a 500$ car, but that cat is out of the bag and we just have to deal with it.
2Classes cover it fine, IMHO.

Knestis
05-23-2012, 09:55 AM
...$5k is about right for a fast car, BUT - you get to build what YOU want, not some rule set that sweats you over bolt length or decal placement. THIS is the draw for me and why I left IT.

You understand that you just admitted that "$500 race cars" already cost 10x as much as that to build, and you've left the door wide open for that cost to increase essentially unchecked, right?

With 125 cars vying for a win at ANY race, the competitive pressure - and interest of increasingly well-funded drivers - spending will inflate like a carcass in the sun. Even with cheap-o tires, it's going to go nuts.

K

Ron Earp
05-23-2012, 10:12 AM
]

You understand that you just admitted that "$500 race cars" already cost 10x as much as that to build, and you've left the door wide open for that cost to increase essentially unchecked, right?


No way man, they only cost $500!

Says the fellow who sold a $350 panhard rod to a guy who then asked me to sign a Craigslist printout stating it was sold for $45.

R

mossaidis
05-23-2012, 10:48 AM
Chumpcar and Lemons is very much about how well you can cheat, how good is your theme and how well you bribe the judges. That's half the fun...

Flyinglizard
05-23-2012, 11:13 AM
That is not correct. Lemons maybe. Not Chump. No themes, no bribes, just the AIV BS paperwork, for Chump.
Not perfect but real racing with cheap-ish cars.

Even Lemons has gotten a little more racey. Two off gets you a stop and go.

Simon T.
05-24-2012, 08:39 AM
I would like to see a "Twilight Endurance Series". Race from maybe 5:00 till 9 or 10 pm.
Allow IT cars,prod cars, ITJ/CCR cars, all on 190 or 180 or higher tread wear tires. Max width of 205 mm
Any wheel. No fuel rigs!

I'd totally be down for that. Make it happen.

Matt93SE
05-24-2012, 10:50 AM
...$5k is about right for a fast car, BUT - you get to build what YOU want, not some rule set that sweats you over bolt length or decal placement. THIS is the draw for me and why I left IT.

You understand that you just admitted that "$500 race cars" already cost 10x as much as that to build, and you've left the door wide open for that cost to increase essentially unchecked, right?

Maybe you could consider a claimer rule? They do it at LeMons, Chump, and almost every roundy-round track in the country.


That is not correct. Lemons maybe. Not Chump. No themes, no bribes, just the AIV BS paperwork, for Chump.
Not perfect but real racing with cheap-ish cars.

Even Lemons has gotten a little more racey. Two off gets you a stop and go.

That's one of the big reasons I don't like racing LeMons. I had to put 4 in the grass to avoid a wreck once and spent 30 minutes in the pits explaining my position to some fat sweaty guy wearing a robe, powdered wig, and riding a Segway.. Of course I had to wait for them to finish tar & feathering another "bad driver" for a similar avoidance maneuver.

Flyinglizard
05-24-2012, 11:54 AM
The claimer rule is interesting. Chumpcar does not do it anymore. I DKA lemons.
It would compromise safety IMHO. I freshen the front end every 20hrs. Nothing suspect is run. The claimer may reduce the safety value of tie rods, ball joint, etc. IMHo. Plus , many of the cars are IT cars that sold for 3000$ MOL. So the claimer would have to be about that. Front running cars are sold for 3-4K.
If Road Atlanta would help this along I will pump it up here.

Matt93SE
05-24-2012, 12:21 PM
gotcha. I thought Chumnpcar had a claimer rule- I guess had is the key term.. I believe the price was $3500 for a car as well. Maybe that was LeMons. They also did a joke of a claimer rule where Jay reserved the right to claim a car for $500, then was allowed to auction it off to the highest bidder. I think I read he did that once or twice a few years ago and then people got better about the blatant cheating since they were afraid to have the car bought out from under them. (Thus the point!)

As for a price, my thought is that it would be in the $3500 range as well. That's about what we have in our LeMons Miata, and we put slightly more than that in Troy Hogan's 240Z build, but that car was soooo cheater-ific it was unreal..

Ron Earp
05-24-2012, 12:23 PM
I had to put 4 in the grass to avoid a wreck once and spent 30 minutes in the pits explaining my position to some fat sweaty guy wearing a robe, powdered wig, and riding a Segway.. Of course I had to wait for them to finish tar & feathering another "bad driver" for a similar avoidance maneuver.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of Chump and Lemons, parts of it that is, but these sorts of things really detract from it and reduce it to something that isn't racing.

jumbojimbo
05-24-2012, 01:19 PM
When I was in the tire store on Saturday one of the techs stopped me and said he raced with a Chump team in a 4G civic. Which is ironic since it is probably I nicer car than I race. It was interesting to hear the perspective of a plain old driver and not someone who is completely in love with CC.

It's obvious that he think IT racing is 1/4 to 1/2 step up in terms of being "real" racing but he's happy with the perceived value he gets out of racing CC.

Cost-wise he figured they had about $5k in the car, pretty comparable to an ITB car, although they've probably added that little by little and not in one big lump like you'd normally do building an IT car. He figures he spends about $1k for a race, so that's about $500 per hour of track time. I spend about $1k per race weekend, but I only get 1.5 hours and half of that is qualifying. I'd still say the cost is not that different.

For competiton, he understands that there is a wide variety of speeds on track and he's really it's not getting the same kind of close racing we get, but to him it is "still racing". One of the big pluses for him is the sheer number of cars on track, which I think keeps it from being a boring lapping day and more like a real race. He said CC can't do MO because they'd be limited to 60 cars on track, which to him meant "booorrrrring". He did understand that I don't have that concern because I race close with my competitors the whole race, so it doesn't matter to me whether there are 20 other cars or 60 on track, I'd never see them anyway.

He said something about not being sure he'd want to try "sprint" racing. The idea that what we're doing is more like an autocross, a super-compressed version of what he does. Which is odd to me because I have to admit that I am not looking forward to the 19 lap race at MO in two weeks. That's a long race for me and after about 10 laps I'll be looking for the checkered flag. But it was interesting to hear that he would sort of like to try it, but he thinks it would be a big change and a big challenge. Honeestly, I doubt it is that different and he'd fit right in.

Operationally, he said the biggest hassle is getting everyone together for one event. coordinating schedules and budgets. On the other hand there is the advantage that they can pool their resources, they only need 1 truck, 1 trailer, 1 race car, etc. It did not sound like they have ever had anyone crash the car or have the car break in the first hour so he'd never had to deal with putting a bunch of money out and only getting to watch.

It also seemed like $1-2k was kind of his limit for the year. Maybe he could do 2 races a year if everyone else could, but I don't see him running a 6 or 8 weekend IT schedule. So for him the advantage is that it's one long event per year, not 2 or 3 or 6 little events. Would I want to run IT if I could only run 2 events a year? Not really. But I also don't want to run CC once a year either.

He also liked the idea that he got to race with his buddies. I think his perception of IT racing is that we race against strangers. He didn't really understand that I race with the same people every race, we hang out together, we're friends. The big advantage he has is that his friends are local and they are his everyday friends. My guys are spread out over the state so I can't just hang out with them in a bar on a Tuesday. The big advantage I have is that I get to race AGAINST my friends, not with them. So the competition is even more fun because we carry the same experiences and stories from race to race. He picked up on that pretty quickly and the idea of racing against his guys instead of with them seem to sound pretty good to him. Good enough to get everyone to spend $3k to buy a car? Not really.

I think on balance he'd fit into IT racing, but only if he had another $5k a year to do 6-8 events. As long as he doesn't have the money and he's happy doing 1 event a year, that is where he will stay. But I have to beleive that there is a percentage of CC guys out there who would enjoy IT racing a little more than CC. We just need to find a way to coax them over to the dark side.

Knestis
05-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Some interesting additions to the conversation there, Jim - thanks.

K

Matt93SE
05-24-2012, 07:21 PM
When I was in the tire store on Saturday one of the techs stopped me and said he raced with a Chump team in a 4G civic.

It's funny some of the comparisons you get from the "unwashed masses".

I like to think of myself as pretty open-minded and pragmatic, and I like to hear opinions like your tire guys..
I must disagree to some of it, however.. they are of course his opinions though..

I've run SCCA for about 2 years now, probably 40 races (20 race weekends).
For the most part, I run with the same group of people. I run mid-pack, and all of the guys in front of me sunk a TON of money into their cars. I'm running STU on a Chump-ish budget (seriously), and all of the cars that are faster than me cost at least 3x as much.
That said, we're all friends. I race with- and against- my friends. If McClughan has a car problem, I'm trying to help him. when I was having handling issues at TMS earlier this month, Austin Snader loaned me his $$$ alignment gear and took the time to come help on my car while he was having serious electrical problems with his own car. At the end of the race, we drank each other's beer and I helped him take down his canopy.
then we all said our goodbyes until next time we see each other -- at the next race, at work, car club meeting, pool party at his house, you name it.

Back up a few months to the last LeMons race.. 2hrs into the race we lost our water pump belt. the guys right next to us just happened to be driving same car. "Hey, you guys have a belt we can steal?"
sure enough, a belt came flying out of the trailer.
unfortunately, we overheated the engine and blew the head gasket... damn.. well, it's 8hrs of racing today, let's go shopping. found an engine one of the shops at the track took in as a core.. borrowed engine hoist from random group of dudes and had the engine out in an hour or so..
got the engine back in and was ready to start with 1hr left on the clock for the day, unfrotunately one of our guys hooked the battery up backwards. DOH!! it fried the alternator and several fusible links in the fuse box. another sprint around the pits and we sourced the parts necesary from fellow competitors.
we wound up getting the car running about 10 min after the day's checkered flag.

So we went to the parts store and bought replacements for all the crap we borrowed, then we went back to the track and drank beer... with our LeMons friends..
next day we had the car running and it ran just fine. while we were loading up, we were trading war stories about the crappy SHO drivers and that damn E30 BMW.. and sho'nuff, we were drinking each others' beers too. After awards ceremony, we helped our friends load up their trailers, and even put down our beer push one broken car onto a trailer... then we all said our goodbyes until next time we see each other -- at the next race, at work, car club meeting, pool party, you get the point.

It doesn't matter what group I'm racing with, I'm racing with my friends. (and there's beer involved.)

The difference I see is that many crapcan teams only make one or two races a year. other teams make 10 or 15 a year. the ones who make multiple races become friends with many of those 80 or 100 cars on the track. there's friends, rivals, enemies, you name it. Just like in Club Racing..

the only difference is I'm racing a car in an enduro with mutliple drivers vs. a sprint race against those same drivers..

TStiles
05-24-2012, 07:51 PM
Matt , How come you guys didn't bring the miata to TWS last weekend ?

Lots of SCCA guys running , and good time had by most

Matt93SE
05-25-2012, 03:23 PM
"we" were there. I stayed home to work on my STU car and financially recover from club races.. Hallett Apr 14-15, TMS May 5-6, TWS May 26-27.

The rest of the guys were there, but I hear they didn't run that much. basically went and goofed off. they only made like 150 laps or something..
(Glad I didn't go.. I would have been hopping mad had I paid to enter a 24 hr race and only run 1/3 of it!!!)

forestdweller37
05-28-2012, 10:09 AM
We had an ITJ car running with us up at BIR this last weekend. I spoke to the owner/driver on Sunday. He'd purchased the (former chump) car on his own, I believe, for SCCA racing. He told me that he'd considered taking the car to ITB, but was likely to give it a nice paint job and stay in ITJ. There were some things done to the car for chump that would be difficult to reverse for ITB. He was there with his wife and kids, which was nice to see.

Maybe SCCA's place in the world of CCR is a more relaxed, family-friendly, race weekend without the challenges of coordinating a team or worrying about cost/valuation rules.

Flyinglizard
05-28-2012, 11:26 PM
One of the best parts of Chumpcar''.. A spare kid armed with a sawsall vs Chumpcar. "Hey Mike cut out alof the interior bracket crap and lets go racing" Family fun around power tools. All good.
The kids love adding lightness. Keep a scale around and watch how they react to what they have removed. Also the beauty of Chumpcar is the lack of beauty. The kids can help work on the car without worry about paint, dents etc. The larger part of the family involved in the race car, the stronger the family.

Tough to put it all back, along with the horn, vapor bottle the washer bottle, IT crap. The cars actually cross over real easy to Production. We run the GOlf both in HP and Chump.

Spinnetti
05-29-2012, 08:36 AM
...$5k is about right for a fast car, BUT - you get to build what YOU want, not some rule set that sweats you over bolt length or decal placement. THIS is the draw for me and why I left IT.

You understand that you just admitted that "$500 race cars" already cost 10x as much as that to build, and you've left the door wide open for that cost to increase essentially unchecked, right?

With 125 cars vying for a win at ANY race, the competitive pressure - and interest of increasingly well-funded drivers - spending will inflate like a carcass in the sun. Even with cheap-o tires, it's going to go nuts.

K

Well, I can tell you I have 1/4 the cost in my lemon as my IT car which is slower. i paid $350 for a 1991 Lexus LS400 with 250k miles on it, that was old and faded, but dent and rust free. It had collapsed air suspension and a frozen fan pulley. For $100 I got worn out struts from the junk yard, $30 got me ebay coliover kits for both ends (random spring rate) and I cut off the frozen pulley. Just had to spend $19 for a shorter belt. I literally built the mechanicals including the cost of the car (less safety gear) for under $500. All the rest is safety gear and tires (I did just break down and get some wider wheels). I haven't touched the motor or trans, other than fluid change and some sparkplugs. It really is $500 less safety gear if you want it to be, and I run up front. Can't touch that in IT - sorry. Its been going on long enough that the wallet boys are already out in force, and I wish they would go back to porsche club/scca. There are plenty of cheaters, but I just do my thing and don't worry about it. with 100 car fields, there is racing for everybody, and I generally outpace the spendy boys. Besides, in an endurance event like this, pit work matters more than lap times so it tends to even things out quite a bit.

Knestis
05-29-2012, 10:00 AM
...all of which is cool. We just have to be very careful that we compare apples to apples.

This is something of a throwback to when IT was brand new. A good friend of mine built a Rabbit as a project car (for the then-new GRM, I think?) back in 1985 or so. He used to take it to car shows, telling them they could build one just like it and get on the track for $2500 or whatever it was. When it came time to sell it, all of a sudden he wanted 2x that amount.

Things are never as cheap as they can be made to sound, and we don't do anyone any favors - and complicate discussions - when we aren't realistic about costs.

K

Spinnetti
05-29-2012, 02:13 PM
...all of which is cool. We just have to be very careful that we compare apples to apples.

This is something of a throwback to when IT was brand new. A good friend of mine built a Rabbit as a project car (for the then-new GRM, I think?) back in 1985 or so. He used to take it to car shows, telling them they could build one just like it and get on the track for $2500 or whatever it was. When it came time to sell it, all of a sudden he wanted 2x that amount.

Things are never as cheap as they can be made to sound, and we don't do anyone any favors - and complicate discussions - when we aren't realistic about costs.

K

Yeah, I think your "dawn of IT" is right on... Lemons will go the way of SCCA too, and something else will replace it. Racing is expensive. Period. The inital lemon car cost is much cheaper, and per event/per hour costs are a bit lower too. I buy 2 tires, (good) brake pads all around and (synthetic) fluids each event, plus entry fees, towing, hotel etc, total cost is about $3200 per event/ 4 drivers = $800 each to run up front for ~4-5 hrs of track time per driver per weekend. The show up and just have fun crowd spend significantly less - maybe half that (my car has high running costs), but on a per hour basis, its a bit cheaper to run faster. Again, the big draw for me isn't cost, its admin hassle (club membership/schools/physicals/hans/over-frequent expiration of belts/net) and building what the hell I want, how I want. when you add up the total cost including "admin time", Lemons offers complelling advantages in cost, entry to the game and flexibility on what you bring - show up with a safe car and drive. The lesson to take away here for you guys, is how to reduce the barriers to entry that have slowly accrued over time in the SCCA. One of the easiest ways is the "ITJ" category so these cars can run. Probably should also rethink the medical/licensing thing though - maybe just honor the licenses from other series - including lemons/chump... there's no evidence that SCCA has any lower risk than lemons, so why place that extra burden to run them? SCCA is suppposedly member driven, so lets open the tent a bit and get some of the market back. A club with 3 entries per class is pretty inbred if you ask me; its not lack of demand, its barriers to the club that aren't worth jumping over for many people - if SCCA met those needs, many of us wouldn't be in Lemons or Chump or just out of the game...

Flyinglizard
06-04-2012, 11:37 AM
"Twilight Endurance Series" TES, Ogren 5/2012
Basic rule set. as of 6/1/12

All cars will have either SCCA or Chumpcar logbook.
May have both.

1) Safety rules per SCCA;All rules per SCCA RE, arm restraints or roof panel, clothing, helmets,etc.
SCCA Cage rules, plus the "Crap Cans" are allowed to attach the cage along the sill/rocker area with tabs or continual tubes. All tubing must be within the wheel base, when the cage connects to the front strut houses.
The rear tubes may go past the gas tank.

2) All glass may be removed or left in. It may be replaced with lexan, 6mm front, 3mm any other . Or left out. Roofs may be cut off.CC must comply with the current 60% of bodywork requirement.

FWD can use any springs/adjusters.
RWD can cut stock springs
All must use OE price shocks.

3) Battery disconnect must be reachable by the driver, belted in.

4) Little Crap Can, ( LCC) Engine size of 2.3liter or less, stock parts, intake, stock exhaust manifold.

All ITC, ITB,GP, HP, SSC , 1.6 Miata, all cars on 180TW tires.

5) "Big Crap Can " ( BCC) engine size over 2.3liter or modded outside of LCC rule. All stock boosted and Rotary, any cc VVT are BCC.
ITA, SSB, 1.8 Miata, SRF, on 180 TW tires

6)UCC, "Unlimited Crap Can"; All swaps that increase the total valve count by more than 3, or piston count.This includes twin engines..
ITS, FP, T1, T2,T3,

6) SCCA belt rules are 2 yrs. Chumpcar is 4 yr (in good shape) . ***CC must update belts to SCCA, 2yr rule***


7)All other cars must comply with their current rules, including weight. log book required.
All tires must= 180 Treadwear or higher. ( Chumpcar is 190 but the 180 TW # allows Kumho and not just the Dunlop Start Spec.)

8)Fueling requirement subject to local supps.
5 min stop, determined by transponder. That is, = to the best lap plus 5 min , plus transit time. Teams must self monitor. All teams under this time may come back in for a stop and go equal to the short time, (To avoid post race DQ.)
If no live timing is available , teams may be required to time each other with stop watches.

9) FUELING IS defined as having the fuel cap off.
No fuel rigs, 5 gal style jugs, hand held only.
Drivers may change while fueling, window nets stay down as long as the gas cap is off.
Fire extinguisher, must have pin out and manned within 8ft of fuel door.
All team members over the wall while fueling, must be in full fire suits, including face coverage.
No work can be done while fueling .

2 hr stint max.

These are my basics @ this time. , Typical Crapcan mods are gutting , brake upgrades,ducts. . Some parts are fabricated,swaybars, etc.

Notes picked up in the last few weeks.
My local (CFR)race board guy doesnt want the Chumps dropped into a group. This forces the " Normal" high dollar cars to run next to the crap cars. valid.
If we can find 60 min or more to run this race, than the "Normal" cars can opt in to run with the crap.

There may be the option of crediting the new Chump drivers with track time ,by observation.
MM

Flyinglizard
06-05-2012, 10:36 AM
http://www.texasworldspeedway.com/
Junkyard sprints.
MM

Flyinglizard
06-06-2012, 10:07 AM
Why SCCA is losing customers;
Sebring ,SCCA, (CFR region) update. ; We left the side windows out of this car. It was nice and cool @ Daytona and went about the same speed, 114.( for 14hrs)
The Prod rules say that the side glass may be leftout or lexan. The rule section is not very clear , so Icalled John Bauer and asked." yes, you may leave out the side windows."
OK
The car owner is 75yrs old, the co driver is 79. I sent the car to the track, I stayed home.
The grid marshal threatened to remove the tech sticker.!! ( As the car was going out on track.) The driver said" I will go to tech post qualifying ".

Tech made these old guys, go to town and buy lexan and install it, before the car could go out again. Total BS. If the windows were out of compliance, they should have made a note in the logbook, not required on the spot action.IMHO.
This is why many race elsewhere, after this kind of treatment. These guys will race Chumpcar from now on. ( same car)
Yes the car is not overly pretty. It is a stock 18yr old ITB car , on Goodyear SRF tires, running in HP with no side windows. These old guys just want to race a little.

Action like this has been continual in CFR. I wonder why I still promote SCCA . granted,we are not in the "in crowd". The meetings are too far from me to attend. Maybe we need to pay the tech people, so that they just do their job.
PBOC, NASA, POC all will not abuse the Chumpcar driving customer . The same cars run with allof these groups, Chin. etc.
People will go down the path of least resistance, the second time. MM

Spinnetti
06-06-2012, 10:14 AM
Why SCCA is losing customers;
Sebring ,SCCA, (CFR region) update. ; We left the side windows out of this car. It was nice and cool @ Daytona and went about the same speed, 114.
The Prod rules say that the side glass may be leftout or lexan. The rule section is not very clear , so Icalled John Bauer and asked." yes, you may leave out the side windows."
OK
The car owner is 75yrs old, the co driver is 79. I sent the car to the track, I stayed home.
The grid marshel threatened to remove the tech sticker.!! ( As the car was going out on track.) The driver said" I will go to tech post qualifying ".

Tech made these old guys, go to town and buy lexan and install it, before the car could go out again. Total BS. If the windows were out of compliance, they should have made a note in the logbook, not required on the spot action.IMHO.
This is why many race elsewhere, after this kind of treatment. These guys will race Chumpcar from now on. ( same car)
Yes the car is not overly pretty. It is a stock 18yr old ITB car , on Goodyear SRF tires, running in HP with no side windows. These old guys just race a little.
MM

Classic.

They should let you run in all cases except saftey issues, then DQ your results if in violation. That way, you can run what you brung, regardless of if you get points or a trophy or whatever. I have a different problem that keeps me away anyway. I bought all brand new gear including belts and window nets, then didn't race it for several years. Now those are "junk" according to the SCCA.. I guess sitting in the box they rot away? No thanks, still in Lemons.....

Butch Kummer
06-06-2012, 12:06 PM
I'm not sure why it is, but this idiocy seems to permeate in CFR - I'm just glad to hear it's not directed only towards the V8 Stock Car series. There were at least fourteen drivers at Daytona May 5-6 primarily because the weekend counted for V8SC points, but the CFR folks gave us so much grief that the series organizers are working with other groups (PBOC & HSR) to run at Daytona and Sebring starting in 2013.

I don't know if anyone of influence in CFR is viewing this, but eventually you guys are going to run out of people willing to put up with your crap!

jumbojimbo
06-06-2012, 12:18 PM
Okay, so this is the kind of issue that should either get addressed or be clarified as not a valid complaint.

Surely someone on this board is active in the region we are talking about here and can escalate this issue to someone appropriate?

Honestly I'm tired of reading complaints about SCCA on here and no one ever does anything about it but complain.

Flyinglizard
06-07-2012, 09:28 AM
Seems as tho I am not the only one bothered by the CFR tech idiota .
Turns out that the vid recorder was running post qualifying, and recorded most the the tech interaction.
While I understand that these guys are volunteers; The first part of tech school should be that;" these people that you are teching, pay the SCCA bills and we need them to have a good time. Please adjust your attitude accordingly ." Dont piss off the customers. !!
In this case, I actually looked into the job( part of the solution, etc)
I have to get e regional tech license, and apprentice for so many events. .
CFR would be miles ahead to hire the local circle track tech guy, pay him his 200$ . I am sure that he would do a better job. As they all know that without racers, they have no job. When we ran the local O track, the tech guy would call me on Mon am , if we missed the race. Checking to see if all was well, as far as the track/racer relationship went.
CFR has the luxury of numbers , so far. Many regions dont right now and more will falter as the competition for track time increases.
The racer has lots more options today than ever before. Lemons/Chumpcar is the result of SCCA. Many little things, ie, the nitpicking rules that the IT guys have. While I value a solid rule set, the constant bantor over washer bottles , brackets, etc gets these guys looking elsewhere.
The two - three days needed to complete the 2 hrs of track time is another. ( I know about the close racing, SCCA has the closest racing).

Anyway. I have started to find the solution, "Rick" needs to go away, IMHO .

Matt93SE
06-07-2012, 12:02 PM
Turns out that the vid recorder was running post qualifying, and recorded most the the tech interaction.
While I understand that these guys are volunteers; The first part of tech school should be that;" these people that you are teching, pay the SCCA bills and we need them to have a good time. Please adjust your attitude accordingly ." Dont piss off the customers. !!


Dirty pool.... post that vid on the Youtoob.. send the link to the CRB via the CRB letter submission form. Tell them this is the reason you are no longer racing SCCA. They people in charge MUST at least look at the letter. The good ones will pay attention.

Flyinglizard
06-07-2012, 12:14 PM
Done

Simon T.
06-11-2012, 06:23 PM
Post the video here for all of us to see. ;)

Knestis
06-11-2012, 07:49 PM
Please.

Any behavior that's OK in the tech shed is OK for the rest of the world to see. No expectation of privacy and all that...

K

Flyinglizard
06-12-2012, 08:12 AM
Not sure what is on the video at this point. Ivan( driver/car owner is off on mission trip). He was pretty sure that it was running.

I have talked to the tech guy( Rick) and the RE and national tech to get this looked at .
Maybe running the video should be standard op for us from now on. I think that it would solve some issues .
Understand that I usually have ugly cars that just meet the rules and I am used to being hassled by these guys. IE; I did not have a fuel port because the tech crew did not have a test kit. I said that I would get a fitting , to match their connector..
I dont like the fuel port requirement on regional only cars, leakpoint, $ wasted , no fuel test in 15yrs, etc. I should send a letter.

At the same point, I want the hoods up and cars looked at in impound. We had to write paper one time for a Volvo without headlights. All that tech needed to do was tell the guy to put the lights back in. But no, we had to" write it up to conform to the rules."
There should be a conversation before any paper work, IMHO.
I realize that many people work in an environment that requires proper channels to get sheet done. I cut to the chase and get stuff done.
Anyway, I put out the summery letter to the RE and to the nat tech person and will get back on the results in a few days.
Maybe the Crap Cans will never get done here with these tech team:(
They already hate me and my cars.

TX FProd
08-17-2012, 01:45 AM
Why SCCA is losing customers;

Hey Mike. It's Joey. Ran across your thread while doing some research on ITJ/ITX classes. Southwest DIV SCCA is now looking at it too.

There are a lot of reasons SCCA is losing members and potential members. Cost of racing. Example, I'm running a 75 Fiat Spider in FP. Plenty of (legal) mods but I can't compete anymore with $50K FP Miatas (seriously). I can't take the car to IT, and dropping to HP would require several changes including an engine swap. A lot of time and money, and I end up in the same race group anyway.

SCCA has become checkbook racing.

The "hassle" and expense of getting a provi license, a medical, 600 page GCR, membership dues, etc. vs show up, go through a 1 hour novice school and race. If you're just getting started with stars in your eyes (and you're not made of money), what looks like the better path?

Regionals. Nationals. Rationals. Majors. WTH? I've been an SCCA member for years and I'm getting lost in all the programs. But from this end of the Country anyway, all the focus is on Nationals, Majors. Screw Regional racing. I see that coming from the top. The Southeast does a much better job with regional Racing as I understand, but you guys are more the exception than the norm.

Seat time. In some cases there is not a huge difference, but there is a difference.

Politics.

ChumpCar really is the "every man's" series. I don't think you have to spend $5k to have a winning car. There's no stupid paddock games or judges or bribes. tech is straight forward and the races are run similar to NASA/SCCA.

I don't know how many Chump/Lemons-only teams will jump on SCCA ITJ. I can tell you that I'm about done with Production car class and SCCA, but if they open the ITJ in SOWDIV, I'll move the Fiat to that class and hang around to do Regionals/Rationals, maybe have a little fun playing with rear wing aero and alternate wheel/tire sizes.

So the word I got was that our DIV is looking to copy the ITJ rules from SEDIV but I didn't run across anything like that. Does it exist?

JT

forestdweller37
08-19-2012, 07:43 AM
I'm not Mike, but here's a link to Oregon's ITJ rules:
http://www.nwr-scca.org/Race/supps/2012Supps/2012_NWR_ITJ_Class_Rules.pdf

Not much to it. Cen Div has been running it this year with the same rules. I've only seen one competitor, but he just slots in with the IT cars and it seems to work out OK.

-Chris

Flyinglizard
08-19-2012, 11:19 AM
Joey, Love your car.
I have 3 cars that we cross between Hp and Chump. One of the cars is a valid HP contender, with my Son driving.
The Chump rules are way too lax and will burn off a lot of serious racer guys ,including a lot of my team.( 16 drivers) John has let the 500$ deal get way out of hand , IMHO.
Some basic rules to control the benefits of big power make a lot of sense in the cost containment area. Max tire size being one simple control. There is a reason that every other race class has a tire size or wheel size rule to contain the lateral power race.
John's extra huge ego wont allow him to change his mind and accept that maybe things could be made easier. Simple crap like changing the glass rule to allow glass removal instead of requiring it. He actually said at one point that SCCA required all glass to be removed . This simple rule change would gain a lot of cars like the IT cars that could rum more classes and sanctions.
Cost containment is crucial to long term participation,IMHO
Our current Chumper was the oval track car that I based my book upon.
The tire rule was a 108$ Goodyear treaded slick tire. One tire every month was normal. next rule change went to American racers and required one tire each week , for the same 150$ win. Less racers are the result.
My email is in my sig . ..
The Turbo Jett Chumper is now plated in FL. and meets the SCCA PDX rule by having a street plate. This makes the SCCA old school just want to leap :)
We had 5 Chumpers @ Sebring sat, with Chin MS. 3 wide down the back straight, nice.
MM

Flyinglizard
08-19-2012, 11:26 AM
I also believe that it is time to have classes as prior posted. The real 500$ Gen 1 cars, now have no reason to show up.
The Gen 2 ,200hp 6cyl/ cars should have their own class .
The G 3 -mods, cut, boosted,swapped, "Crap Can Am" ( Ogren copy right) should have our own class.
All IMHO

Flyinglizard
10-01-2012, 09:00 AM
I'll have the Turbo Jett @ Sebring for rent . Turkey trot, and the short course race.
I have to sweet talk Rick into the ITJ rules.