cams?

[Anviltester]

are cams unrestricted, must remain stock or somewhere in between? i cant seem to find it in the rulebook. am i missing it?

[JoshS]

The basic premise of the rulebook is that "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't." You can't find it, so they have to remain stock.

[Anviltester]

i realize the premise. just wondering if i missed a section or line when i was reading it. any firm answers?

[JoshS]

i realize the premise. just wondering if i missed a section or line when i was reading it. any firm answers?

That was a firm answer. Stock.

[Ron Earp]

Stock.

But pay attention to your car and find out how many cams came in the car stock. If multiple cams exist then undoubtedly one of them is better than the others. And pay attention to the section on cam timing and cutting your head.

[Flyinglizard]

Stock cam , but you can put it anywhere that you can get keys for.
+or-3 is abouyt the limit for VW. Just cutting the VW head usually results in about minus 4 degreeS. works fine there . Better torque will be about +2,+3, IMHO trying to make passing situations coming off of turns, not the end of the striaghts.
This thread come up every couple of years, if youlook back ,Ihope that I have said the same thing. :)/

The actual rule says that the "cam timing may be returned to stock"
Or may not..
Not a huge deal where ever it is, with a stock cam.
PS if youhave twin cams , I read the rules to say that they must be aligned to each other, IE both must be at the same timing RE to the crank.

[Anviltester]

its a mk3 gti 8v for itb. through my homework trying to find the best parts for these builds (i am building twins) i have learned of some people who have diff cams from diff manufacturers (not stock) which is why i asked. I wont name names or sources - i, umm, actually already forgot. wait, what was i saying?

[Andy Bettencourt]

its a mk3 gti 8v for itb. through my homework trying to find the best parts for these builds (i am building twins) i have learned of some people who have diff cams from diff manufacturers (not stock) which is why i asked. I wont name names or sources - i, umm, actually already forgot. wait, what was i saying?

So you can have a cam from a different 'source' so long as it's to OEM spec. EVERY spec. That's under the 'replacement parts' rule.

[Anviltester]

the ones i was told about and whos running them are def not stock lift/duration. so if you cant hear the cam lope difference and theres no one around to complain did the cams get changed? hehehe

[Chip42]

Stock cam , but you can put it anywhere that you can get keys for.
+or-3 is abouyt the limit for VW. Just cutting the VW head usually results in about minus 4 degreeS. works fine there . Better torque will be about +2,+3, IMHO trying to make passing situations coming off of turns, not the end of the striaghts.
This thread come up every couple of years, if youlook back ,Ihope that I have said the same thing. :)/

The actual rule says that the "cam timing may be returned to stock"
Or may not..
Not a huge deal where ever it is, with a stock cam.
PS if youhave twin cams , I read the rules to say that they must be aligned to each other, IE both must be at the same timing RE to the crank.

and the actual rule, which you seem to understand, is why you cannot do what you advise in the first part of your response.

cams may be returned to the correct, stock timing by means of keys. that may also be left retarded by allowed machining to the head, and I suppose you could machine, key, and machine, and wind up with less retardation and it's grey legal. anything advanced is BS, 100% (unless you have some magical cam drive that advances as the distance between cam and crank drops).


the ones i was told about and whos running them are def not stock lift/duration. so if you cant hear the cam lope difference and theres no one around to complain did the cams get changed? hehehe
this kind of thinking/building isn't helping anyone. follow the rules and the odds of the rules getting all of the classifications right goes up. cheat and you risk becoming the "proof" of the negative, and a false target.

[Anviltester]

this is why i asked originally. there are so many variables black and grey that are available and i wanted to get the consensus on where the line is. but name me a successful race team that doesnt "push" the rules from go carts to f1 and everything in between. got my answers. thanks everybody. my clients will see you on the track soon.

[Knestis]

...name me a successful race team that doesnt "push" the rules from go carts to f1 and everything in between. ...

Raises hand. :happy204:

You have permission to look at anything you want on my car, Mel. It is *not* necessary to cheat - not even "tech shed legal" - to have a competitive IT car. Put someone with a second-per-lap more talent than me in my car and it's a winner anywhere. Bowie Gray at the 2007 ARRC proved it.

K

[JeffYoung]

Agreed.


Raises hand. :happy204:

You have permission to look at anything you want on my car, Mel. It is *not* necessary to cheat - not even "tech shed legal" - to have a competitive IT car. Put someone with a second-per-lap more talent than me in my car and it's a winner anywhere. Bowie Gray at the 2007 ARRC proved it.

K

[shwah]

Raises hand. :happy204:

You have permission to look at anything you want on my car, Mel. It is *not* necessary to cheat - not even "tech shed legal" - to have a competitive IT car. Put someone with a second-per-lap more talent than me in my car and it's a winner anywhere. Bowie Gray at the 2007 ARRC proved it.

K

+1. If you want to win, it is not worth trying to do anything outside the rules. Put your focus on doing EVERYTHING well that you are allowed to within the rules.

BTW - there are some "stock" cams from other models that folks have run in the Mk3 VW. Don't do that either.

[TStiles]

Raises hand. :happy204:

You have permission to look at anything you want on my car, Mel. It is *not* necessary to cheat - not even "tech shed legal" - to have a competitive IT car. Put someone with a second-per-lap more talent than me in my car and it's a winner anywhere. Bowie Gray at the 2007 ARRC proved it.

K


Agreed.

Refreshing :happy204:

BTW : There is a place for guys who want the rules box to be a little bigger ( ST ) , if that box is not big enough for you ( Prod ) , if you find that box too small ( GT )

[JeffYoung]

Exactly. Maximizing with all the little stuff allowed by the rules netted me big gains. It can be done. Takes time and effort and the realizaiton that not everyone in front of you is cheating.

[MMiskoe]

Takes time and effort and the realizaiton that not everyone in front of you is cheating. Speak for yourself man, anyone who is front of me must be a cheating bastard and anyone who is behind me is a world class driver with the finest equipment under them! Right?

[Ed Funk]

Speak for yourself man, anyone who is front of me must be a cheating bastard and anyone who is behind me is a world class driver with the finest equipment under them! Right?

That's the way it is in my classes.

[Andy Bettencourt]

That's the way it is in ALL classes.


Fixed. LOL

[Flyinglizard]

The cam timing rule, or lack of, is fine as is. Power/torque drops if the cam is more than 2 degrees advanced. Typical timing change, due to milling the block and head is about 4-5late. 2-3 Late seems to work best for the legal #020,VW mk 2 cam.
I have a "cam timing table", that sits on the top of the head so that I can measure the "up lobes" to get a true cam center.

Using all of the legal methods is needed to run well anywhere. This is legal , within the rules, and standard op.
I was pretty sure that you need to have a VW part # marking on the cam.

FWIW I just run all of MY ITB VWs, in HP now anyway. I have the trick CV axles, add a cam, take out the weight, and run on the SRF tires.

Chip 42, what is not legal?? BTW the cam does advance with rpm. The belt spreads on the front side a bit and moves the cam up about 1 @ 5000rpm. Watch the cam with a good light.

If you are building a race VW, the 20$ for my book will return a lot of good tips and some speed. Esp the rear steer section for the VW 2/3/4 cars.

[Chip42]

Chip 42, what is not legal??

Stock cam , but you can put it anywhere that you can get keys for.

we're discussing static timing, not dynamic advnaces resulting from centripital forces on the belt or any other "slop" in the assembly. you cannot static time the motor wherever you want using a bushing or key, you may correct it (i.e. put it back to stock) with those. I'm not accusing you of cheating, but your statement I've quoted 2x now is incorrect and to follow it to intentionally SET a desired cam advance would be illegal.

[GKR_17]

I'm not accusing you of cheating, but your statement I've quoted 2x now is incorrect and to follow it to intentionally SET a desired cam advance would be illegal.

If you won't say it I will.

Intentionally setting the cam timing to anything other than stock is CHEATING. With non-adjustable timing, you can leave it alone after milling the head, or use an offset key to bring it back to stock (and nothing else). If it has adjustable gears, then they must be set to stock timing. PERIOD.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Intentionally setting the cam timing to anything other than stock is CHEATING. With non-adjustable timing, you can leave it alone after milling the head, or use an offset key to bring it back to stock (and nothing else). If it has adjustable gears, then they must be set to stock timing. PERIOD.

Truth.

[Chip42]

If you won't say it I will.

Intentionally setting the cam timing to anything other than stock is CHEATING. With non-adjustable timing, you can leave it alone after milling the head, or use an offset key to bring it back to stock (and nothing else). If it has adjustable gears, then they must be set to stock timing. PERIOD.

absolutely. I'm just not going to accuse someone of doing without evidence.

[Flyinglizard]

You are right, you cant go past zero.

[JeffYoung]

Well, not exactly.

The concept is you have to use stock cam timing, or the timing that results from when you cut the head, or an offset key to return the timing to stock if you want.

[Ron Earp]

Us poor suckers with pushrod motors don't have to worry about such things. Line up the dots on the cam and crank, done deal.

[Flyinglizard]

The TR 8/Rover is going into my TVR. Building the engines for SOLO TR 8 race cars got me into my current building . I have found that the stock Buick cams are almost always late.

The cam timing thing is a done thing. Most people cant get the cam back to exactly zero, or even know what zero is.
The VW engines have about a 3 degree tolerance at this point in time due to a multitude of factors,.. Deck ,head, camwheels.
The days of cutting the block and sizing the head to get a specific cam timing are over.
The reality is that it doe not make much difference. The car wont go fast if the cam is advanced. The stock legal cam/springs/throttle body, wont spin enough to see a return of more than 3 degrees retard.
To think that the only legal cam positions are full retard or straight up, is living in a perfect world that doesnt exist. IMHO.
If you really want to fix the cam timing thing, pull valve covers in impound.
MM

[ShelbyRacer]

The way I read the rules though, you may *centerline* the cam if the "stock" timing (straight key) if it is not correct. This should be allowed under "Blueprinting". Obviously, it would be the responsibility of the driver/entrant to be able to provide documentation to support the spec that is used. That might be something that even the "pushrod guys" can use. Given the significant manufacturing variances in mass-produced factory cams, this is something to be considered.



So, if your heads are cut, you theoretically have 3 options-

straight key with whatever advance/retard obtained from cutting the head
offset key to restore "stock" timing according to calculation
offset key to centerline the cam
Even if you haven't cut the head, you can use the "straight" timing or the centerlined timing.

This is one of those old factory-backed Showroom Stock tricks- find the factory cam with the "best" cam timing...

[GKR_17]

The rules don't have any allowance for "center-lining" the cam unless that is how it is specified in the factory manual. The blueprinting allowance does not apply unless the factory used offset keys.