New IT class revealed at National Convention

[jhooten]

ITJ has been announced by Oregon region. The class is designed to give a place in SCCA racing for LeMons/Chump cars. In case you are wondering the official class name is Improved Touring JUNK.

[CRallo]

Is it April 1st already?!

[Simon T.]

LOL There's no way!

[Greg Amy]

Where's my Fonzi icon...?

By the time these cars are built to meet SCCA safety prep standards, and drivers are wearing SCCA-required safety equipment, the whole concept is well above "Look down, there's some sharks!" status...

Can't wait until the first SoWDiv scrutineer looks at something with a shark fin bolted on top and pulls out the "neat and clean appearance" GCR requirement...

Have fun!

[preparedcivic]

This is for real. I have a friend going through SCCA Driver's School in one out there.

[BruceG]

ITJ has been announced by Oregon region. The class is designed to give a place in SCCA racing for LeMons/Chump cars. In case you are wondering the official class name is Improved Touring JUNK.

I went to the SCCA Oregon website and this schedule for the upcoming Drivers school/regional shows ITJ as a class!!

http://www.oregonscca.com/media-library/documents/roadrace/2012/schedulemarch2012v3-6-12%281%29.pdf

ITJ will be running in race group 7

My question is....who's paying for the zamboni to sweep the track after ITJ runs?:happy204:

[Ron Earp]

:happy204: for the Oregon region being proactive and trying to find a place for these racers to race in the SCCA.

[RacerBill]

Where's my Fonzi icon...?

By the time these cars are built to meet SCCA safety prep standards, and drivers are wearing SCCA-required safety equipment, the whole concept is well above "Look down, there's some sharks!" status...

Can't wait until the first SoWDiv scrutineer looks at something with a shark fin bolted on top and pulls out the "neat and clean appearance" GCR requirement...

Have fun!

Shark fins might be OK, but the stripper poles may raise some eyebrows :D

[Knestis]

This is going to be a VERY interesting place to watch the "cheap race cars" experiment in all of its glory.

** ITJ gives people with existing Lemons/Chump cars a place to race

** The "$500 rule" goes POOF without a tzar to enforce it at the races

** Time passes - about 18 months is my guess

** Someone looks at the ITJ rules and does a purpose-built car - without the cultural and enforcement constraints, it's going to be KILLER, DUDE...!

It's like someone did a ctrl+alt+del on IT.

K

[StephenB]

I wish they didn't give a false representation to what IT is... These cars are not IT cars at all and probably never will be. They should have called it what it is not an IT car.

Stephen

[Ron Earp]

Lots of flaws for sure, but at least they're trying. I sort of figure the entire "junk race car" thing is a fad, but you never know.

[tom91ita]

can't these cars run ITE anyways if they have the proper safety equipment?

or is it the fact that the cars are prepared to the "specs" of an alternate series that they do not not need to meet certain GCR issues?

[Ron Earp]

can't these cars run ITE anyways if they have the proper safety equipment?


ITE differs from region to region. Therefore this might be the case is some regions, but maybe not in Oregon.

[Simon T.]

Have you all been to a LeMons/Chump event? Chump Car isn't that bad, many cars I've seen are similar to IT cars, many of which don't even have the crazy glue on shark fin type items you all mention. I was surprised at how quick and how well prepped some of the cars at the Road Atlanta Chump Car round looked.

ITJ sounds like a joke though, as someone said, without the $500 rules and what not it just makes no sense. Plus why would you want to run it with SCCA when there is a busy Chump Car schedule anyway with endurance races and full fields?

What safety rules are different for these than SCCA? I think the only main difference is no H&N system, no?

[ribbie78]

Plus why would you want to run it with SCCA when there is a busy Chump Car schedule anyway with endurance races and full fields?



After running in both LeMons, Chump, and scca regional events I can say an attraction is one endurance weekend cost me the same as 2-3 weekends of club racing by myself. The gamble with our $500 car was if one of the other guys wrecked it you don't get any seat time possibly.

There was talk a year or two ago around Nelson that there "might" be a junk car class at some events.

[924Guy]

I wish they didn't give a false representation to what IT is... These cars are not IT cars at all and probably never will be. They should have called it what it is not an IT car.

Stephen

Are we really that sure the "rest" of SCCA Club Racing can tell the difference between and ITJ car and any other IT car? :p

[JeffYoung]

I think this is a great idea.

What are the licensing requirements though? Do you have to have a regional road racing license?

I think that will keep a lot of the folks with these cars away.

[rydermike]

Actually the Chumpcars are more in the spirit of what IT cars started out as or at least intended. Basically street cars with safety equipment added. Just not having the expense of everyone investing in high dollar suspensions and blueprinted and beyond motors.And once everyone spent all that money for same type improvements wheres the advantage?Whats with the snobbery anyway?

[TStiles]

I would love to see the potential revenue come into the club , However the challenge is going to be in mixing race groups with ITJ and I'm not crazy about adding more race groups to a crowded schedule

Some of those ChumpCar are pretty slow.

Going to be interesting when some of the guys lap the same car 3-4 times in a rational race :bash_1_:

[Doc Bro]

So what happens when a guy with a $500 investment (little skin in the game) pulls a total bonehead move and takes out a 60K racecar? Oh well....that's racing???

I think it's a poor idea......sounds purely revenue-centric to me....

The good news is this will pave the way for figure-8 racing, school bus racing, demo derbies, monster trucks, corn dogs and funnel cakes......

R

[Knestis]

I like the occasional funnel cake so no snobbery from me...

IT started as a regional invention and grew. This is a regional class that's designed to meet the needs of a market segment, and that's awesome. It's a region-specific deal so it has no more bearing on IT nationally than do the various (as has been pointed out) ITE/ITO/ITwhatever classes run by regions.

I don't think "slow" will be a new - or significant - problem, at least as it's driven by the rules. It's possible to build a dead slow car under CURRENT SCCA class regs (witness the Spridget thing we had to deal with during ARRC testing). And boneheads are as likely to be stoopid in an expensive car as a cheap one - mostly.

I just think it's going to be a fascinating case study of why doing this kind of thing every few years is something of a goat-rope, and why these initiatives ALWAYS move forward on the false proposition that the rules will control costs.

K

[Simon T.]

I like the occasional funnel cake so no snobbery from me...

IT started as a regional invention and grew. This is a regional class that's designed to meet the needs of a market segment, and that's awesome. It's a region-specific deal so it has no more bearing on IT nationally than do the various (as has been pointed out) ITE/ITO/ITwhatever classes run by regions.

I don't think "slow" will be a new - or significant - problem, at least as it's driven by the rules. It's possible to build a dead slow car under CURRENT SCCA class regs (witness the Spridget thing we had to deal with during ARRC testing). And boneheads are as likely to be stoopid in an expensive car as a cheap one - mostly.

I just think it's going to be a fascinating case study of why doing this kind of thing every few years is something of a goat-rope, and why these initiatives ALWAYS move forward on the false proposition that the rules will control costs.

K

Hey now if you're talking about the Bugeye running the test day this past year at the ARRC that little thing allowed me to make my first ever pass. :p

[TStiles]

There's nothing $ 500 about a $ 500 ChumpCar ... You can spend a pretty good chunk of change on a good ChumpCar effort

I can buy a decent IT car for what it costs to build a good ChumpCar

[JS154]

I was at the convention, and in the room when they spoke about this. It's not a joke. They do have a "no crap like shark fins or tripper poles on the cars" type of rule.

AS long as the cars meet SCCA safety requirements, they can run.

The idea is, these events are being filled, and people are getting real on-track, fender to fender experience. What better audience to capture and have race with us and become members of the SCCA? The ones that get the racing bug are going to race somewhere...we may as well be the ones to give them an easy entry path.

The people from the region that are doing it spoke about how many of them had entered these events, and while the skill level was not real high, the events were run cleaner (non contact-wise) than many of the Scca events they had seen.

Good on them for thinking outside the box on how to grow membership and participation.

[jjjanos]

I just think it's going to be a fascinating case study of why doing this kind of thing every few years is something of a goat-rope, and why these initiatives ALWAYS move forward on the false proposition that the rules will control costs.

Rule Section 1. Specify safety level
Rule Section 2. Specify what performance modifications can be made.
Rule Section 3. Set the claiming price for the class. You put the cash down, you walk away with that car as it came off the track.

You want to build a $60K car to win the ARRC? Good for you -- you'll win the ARRC and someone will take your car home for $5K.

[rydermike]

There's nothing $ 500 about a $ 500 ChumpCar ... You can spend a pretty good chunk of change on a good ChumpCar effort

I can buy a decent IT car for what it costs to build a good ChumpCar

It's probably cheaper to buy an existing IT car than it costs to do a new build Chumpcar , Then the bonus of selling off the suspension components and using those funds for the cost of the 1st race.

And it might suprise some people how fast Chumpcars go , at the Chumpionship last labor dat at Iowa Speedway the race alternated between the road course and the oval for a total of 25 1/2 hours of racing with avg speeds on the oval being in the low 31 second range for much of the field .... just a tick under 100 mph avg ;)

[tom91ita]

we should be running in our first LeMons event in April.

i give the region credit for getting outside the box. if they can fill up their own race group, that would be great.

one headache will be the licensing. but if we had our LeMons event late in the summer, this would be one way to get some more seat time or shake-down time for your car.

[Knestis]

From discussions elsewhere I don't *think* this is any kind of route to "alternate licensure." It's just a class.

K

[JeffYoung]

That may really keep the participation numbers down. It seems to me -- perception only -- that a large portion of Chump/Lemons drivers are not SCCA licensed, and do not want to go through the rigamarole and expense of getting one.

[dickita15]

I said at the convention and I will say here. The club racing department is pretty good at finding ways to make things happen if you are creative. I bet if some region wanted to try to do something like a lemons race there is some way to make it happen. Maybe it would be sanctioned as a school. Competitors would need membership and a physical but I bet the rest is doable if I thought about it long enough. Hell there are plenty of people smarter than me I bet Butch could figure a way in no time.
By the way, I am told MidDiv had a lemons class at schools and regionals last year.

[DavidM]

Do chump/lemons cars meet SCCA/IT safety requirements? If so, then I don't see a big difference between these cars and other IT cars. Couldn't they run in an existing IT class, though?

David

[Simon T.]

Do chump/lemons cars meet SCCA/IT safety requirements? If so, then I don't see a big difference between these cars and other IT cars. Couldn't they run in an existing IT class, though?

David

For the most part they do but they have glass removed I believe, many have more extensive gutting than IT, etc.

[Ron Earp]

I bet if some region wanted to try to do something like a lemons race there is some way to make it happen. Maybe it would be sanctioned as a school. Competitors would need membership and a physical but I bet the rest is doable if I thought about it long enough. Hell there are plenty of people smarter than me I bet Butch could figure a way in no time.

Sure enough. If the SCCA can toss the "we've always done it this way" I'm sure we could find better, faster, and more modern ways to teach folks to race and race safely. How old is the "two schools" model? And just because "it has always worked" doesn't mean there isn't a better way to do it.

[Charlie Broring]

I think ITJ is a a fine idea. It's good to see one of our regions trying to capitalized on the Chump/Lemons phenomenon to attract drivers from outside the club and provide it's members a new low-buck option. There certainly is room in the SCCA for a class less costly then IT and SM.

I know of another region where the SCCA members are running a Lemons clone endurance race independent of the National office sanctioning , so this isn't the first region to recognize the potential.

I recently asked the SCCA Chairman of the Board if the national office has been following the success of Lemons/Chump in attracting new road racers and if there was any interest in an SCCA getting involved in this sort of thing. He assured me that the interest was less then zero in Topeka. I was a bit surprise by this and it seemed like our club is missing an opportunity.

I think some of the best ideas in the SCCA emerge from the regions, I hope the ITJ class takes off out in Oregon, and then spreads eastward.

[RSTPerformance]

At first when I saw this thread I thought what the heck are they doing now.

I am scheduled to compete in my first Lemons race this May at NHMS and i am very excited! The one thing I keep thinking while we prep the car is that it would be nice for some of the other drivers to have some chances to race in some other events (if the car makes it through the first event!).

So after thinking about it, now I like the idea but I am NOT a fan of the association with IT. In reality the cars are closer to Showroom Stock/Touring cars than IT cars in my opinion. Personally I think it shows all of us IT folk what "they" think about the category as a whole. NOT IMPRESSED with that part of it but I like the idea to get more people involved...

Raymond "Still glad to see people thinking outside the box" Blethen

[gran racing]

So what happens when a guy with a $500 investment (little skin in the game) pulls a total bonehead move and takes out a 60K racecar? Oh well....that's racing??? Or what happens when a "$500 investment" car laps a 60k racecar? No, really.

I went to a ChumpCar event and choose not to watch much video of the track to challenge myself. Hell, after all these guys don't need a license, right? There was plenty of stupid stuff going on at this event, but honestly most of it was from the guys who can drive, not the novices. Walking to pit lane I was like, err, really? I wasn't expecting PAID pro drivers to be here. Why? It's about FUN.

My point with this link is absolutely not for some 100 visitors traffic but the post is too long to put here. This (http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/blog/chumpcar-adventure/)was my first ChumpCar event. Next time I'll take it as seriously as attending an SCCA event I want to win in a competitive class. Shame on me. (I did LOVE racing in the dark once I figured out where the track went.)

Why SCCA versus ChumpCar? Yes, there's a huge reason why. We offer sprint races. It takes a lot more to put together a enduro effort than a sprint race effort. One man crew versus several person crew.

IMO, way to go and actually take a look at the market and what's out there. If there are a few people who go to BMWCCA or PCA, so be it. They aren't paying higher entry fees or membership fees anyway. Hell, maybe I'll go down this route myself in a few years.

-- I do agree it should not be directly associated with IT. Give it another category. Not hard to do.

[rydermike]

You might be incredibly suprised to see who some of the guys that do occasional races in crapcans . People Like Trans Am Buzz McCAll , Randy Pobst Tommy Kendall among many other pro guys. Many guys have previously raced in SCCA & IMSA and for whatever reasoned stepped away and are now finding racing fun again under that formula.

[dickita15]

I think some of the best ideas in the SCCA emerge from the regions,

QFT:happy204:

[jhooten]

Dick,
You were kind of shy and reserved at the convention. Tell us how you really feel.

[Knestis]

... Many guys have previously raced in SCCA & IMSA and for whatever reasoned stepped away and are now finding racing fun again under that formula because people will let them drive for free.

Fixed.

By the way, I have a Lemons MkII Jetta kit. It ran a couple of races then blew up the engine before I snagged it. I've got a complete MkIII 2.0 swap for it.

Problem is, I don't have the time to put it together and drag it to the track. I'd be willing to give it to someone in exchange for the opportunity to be one of those "many guys" for a couple of races.

:)

K

[Flyinglizard]

FWIW, I have 2-3 SCCA, ITB and HP cars, 2 Chumpcars, 1 NASA SM. and prep many more..

The Chumpcar racing is just like SCCA regional racing, driver quality wise.
The speed is about ITA lap times for the winners. ITA speeds for 7 hr, 14 hr, 24 hrs. All on Treadwear 190 tires. The tires last about 30hrs on our light( 1750#) VW
The front running cars are purpose built. IE I have water cooled brakes, Big rad, some compression, no roof, well gutted. rear steer, custom ball joints, etc.

The cage rules exceed SCCA IT cages by a good bit. IE the complete Rocker/sill is encouraged to be attached. No max square in rule.
Driver side door bars are the same. You may cut the roof off and gut the inner panels. No bars past the strut/crush zones. Fuel cells or stock tanks.
The hoods may be gutted , vented, removed , (if you have a windshield and roof)

Chumpcar is not a joke. It is a fun way to run on great tracks for long races.
Chumpcar is not perfect. the 500$ is BS. The wheel/brake rules promote huge tires, not good, IMHO.
I have proposed a two class deal with the wheel size as the break at 7in, CCL and CCU.
John( MR head Chump) has shot it down each timeBTW.

Chumpcar has about 2900 drivers for 2011, they are doing something right. 40plus races.
25hr of Nelson had 75 ish cars,
14hrs @ Sebring had about 82 cars
How can SCCA tie onto this bus??

IMHO, SCCA would be wise to allow the Chumps/lemons drivers, credit for one school by showing 2 or more races on their logs.( 4-6 hrs driving time per race. )
Many of the drivers that rent my cars have Skippy, Bondurant, SCCA, IMSA exp. A huge cross section of well funded drivers .

I would be happy advise the Class and help setup basic rules and license considerations.
ITJ is just not verynice tho.
I like Crap Can Limited,CCL and Crap can unlimited , CCU

[Flyinglizard]

The key to getting these guys is racing in the dark!! in the rain. yeah, bring it on.
I had three drivers @ Sebring flipping coins to finish the race , in the dark, and raining.


HEy K. I'll take that jet if it is caged. We are running Sebring, NOLA, RA, Daytona.
hit me with a pic. please.
MM

[gran racing]

because people will let them drive for free.

I don't agree.Like I said, some of the guys who were there are PAID pro drivers. There is something to be said about this type of racing and the fun aspect. It's not like seats are expensive. I paid $750 in total which included tires, entry fee, fantastic food...pretty much everything. Crash damage liability was also an big attraction for me. With other teams I've looked into including your Pablo, I might be able to afford the rental fee but certainly not the repair bills even if it's a fair rate. These "crap cans" people can.

[Knestis]

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/2011/FrontSmall.jpg

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/2011/RearSmall.jpg

I don't see any reason that the real south wouldn't work. Take a look...

K

[Flyinglizard]

I'll work something out withyou.
MM

[MMiskoe]

Well, cheap cars or not, if anyone hasn't recognized that Chumpcar & Lemon's are positively kicking SCCA's ass for entries it would only be due to you not paying attention. At least for now, these two organizations have hit on a plan that seems to attract people. Maybe it won't last. But for now it's working. SCCA would be smart to realize the pool to fish from is not unlimited, but the number of people fishing for entries has gone up, thus reducing the catch. Allowing cars from other organizations is one way to do it.

Differences in ITE from region to region is dumb. There should be a catch-all class, (or a few for speed differentials), that allow NASA, EMRA, PCA, BMWCC, Chump, Lemons all a place to play w/o questions asked provided they meet safety regs. People already build cubic dollar ITE cars in the northeast, I assume in other areas too.

Even in Lemon's, there are no $500 cars winning the events. I've been to three of them, won one outright and got good looks at at least 3 overall winning cars. No way you're going to go out and build one from scratch, stay under budget and hope to win. All the winning cars had people behind them w/ lots of experience with either that particular car, or endurance racing, or both (both in my case).

You can go racing for cheap, you can't win for cheap. Those two are mutually exclusive.

[lateapex911]

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/2011/FrontSmall.jpg

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/2011/RearSmall.jpg

I don't see any reason that the real south wouldn't work. Take a look...

K
Oooo, I see something orange and interesting in the background of that lower shot. I'm surprised they even let that jetta in the same building, LOL

[forestdweller37]

Newbie de-lurking here. I've not posted much if any on this forum, but I thought I might have something to add to this discussion. As to my background, I'm a 10 year SCCA member and Chumpcar racer who's crossing over to SCCA club racing. I earned my novice permit a year ago driving a Chumpcar. This year I plan to run some Regionals in SM and ITA.

A few thoughts:
Cost: Chumpcars are not at all cheap to build for new racers. The rules for roll cages and most safety gear are very similar to SCCA. The cost is the same. (e.g. The cage in our chump miata cost us $3k at a local race shop.) There's a lot of new/fresh parts to buy to make the cars track worthy. Remember, we're building these things to be driven hard for 24 straight hours. Breaking down in the first hour makes for an expensive un-fun weekend. Hubs, wheel bearings, cooling systems, etc. have to be in excellent mechanical condition. The braking systems are generally re-built with stock parts and racing pads. Probably 50% of the cars at a Chump race will be set up for video, data, and/or radio communication. The only thing they're not doing is spending money on (very many) high performance parts or true race engine builds. Where individuals save money is by sharing the costs of building, transporting, etc. and by not having to purchase Hoosiers. Dunlop Star Specs are close to being the "spec" tire for Chumpcar. We've flogged a set for 14 hours. They look like they could have gone well past 18. Typical Lat G numbers are 1.1-1.15.

Speed: Looking at some NASA Spec Miata results from the short course at BIR shows fast lap times of 1:56.476 and 1:57.319 for first and second places respectively. The three quickest drivers on my chump team have logged lap times in the low 1:59-2:01 range. Our 1.6 Miata is an upper mid-pack car. We'll typically be passed by some high-powered Hondas, BMW 325's, and that darn V8 Lexus. (How fast is a B-Spec again?)

Crashing/rough driving: We have about 24 Chumpcar race hours on our car with zero incidents of contact. Remember every Chumpcar is at least 3/4's borrowed from the other team members. Would you really want to be the one to explain to your 3+ team mates why you bent their race car? The endurance format generally allows for patience in making a pass too.

SCCA tech: Been there, done that...with a Chumpcar. There are nuances between the rule sets that cause problems. Very few if any would be full-on safety issues. Chumpcar allows things like anti-lock brakes and removing the dash. The basic GCR does not. The "neat and clean" and missing body work rules also come into play. Unlike SCCA, there are no minimum weights in Chumpcar. Chump requires all windows except the windshield to be removed or replaced with Lexan. A person building a dual usage car would pretty much need to plan for it from the start.

SCCA Licensing: When I ask other Chump drivers if they'd consider giving SCCA a try, the licensing issue is typically one of the first reasons/excuses given for not doing so. Their perception is that it's a big expensive ordeal. At my Region's annual driver's meeting, I asked if SCCA's new "mentoring" licensing program could utilize observed participation in a Chump race as a basis for issuing a novice permit. Seat time is typically the second reason they use for not crossing over to SCCA.

I don't think Oregon, or any other region, will have much luck attracting the existing crapcan racecars simply by offering a class for them. The licensing, tech, and shared car ownership will be stumbling blocks to any driver who wants to give SCCA a try with his/her team's car. With that said, these “chumps” are out there turning wrenches, building caged race cars, and learning racecraft. SCCA needs to find a way to make them feel welcome because many have the perception that they would not be.

Other Regions besides Oregon have classes similar to ITJ. Perhaps some some cross-region/cross division communication on the interweb could be used to develop a "standard" SCCA-friendly rule set for them. Knowing that the class was available in multiple regions would make it more attractive to individuals looking for less expensive racing. Something similar was done several years ago amongst the autocrossers who wanted a Street Touring class for their sports cars. They formed a Yahoo group to discuss it and hammered out a rule set. It was voted on and accepted by some larger regions, but never implemented due to the National office producing their own version of the class (appearing in April!) These days, something like a forum thread and google docs could help facilitate the process.

Chumpcar is not perfect. A lot of people aren't into the "themes." Many don't like digging through Craigslist everyday to try and prove or re-prove that a version of their $1500 donor car could have been bought for $500. Chumpcar drops the ball in making entry lists available to the world, publishing results, or even being on the radar for contingency. Race starts involve the cars circling the track randomly spread out until the green flag is flown. Some tracks are "dumbed down" for the novice drivers. An example would be using the "bend" before the "kink" at Road America.

The trick is to make SCCA club racing appear even cooler, more fun, and easily accessible.

Apologies for such a long post.
-Chris

[dickita15]

Chris, thanks for the informative post. I think many of the problems attracting people from chumps to SCCA are perception and could be overcome just by demystifying the process and making them feel welcome. On of advantages of SCCA is in my opinion we are the best at serious competition. Where we sometimes fall down is we get a bit wrapped up in that serious competition and forget to make easy and fun.

[JLawton]

I see this as a perfect way to get guys to cross over to SCCA. I agree, I think SCCA should embrace it.

[924Guy]

Excellent post, Chris, this is exactly the kind of feedback we need for such a program...

[RacerBill]

More cars = more competition
More cars = keep entry fees low

Let's fill up those tracks! Make it happen!!!!!!

[Flyinglizard]

SCCA vs Chumpcar issues:
SCCA has 3 or 4 20-40min sessions, spread out over two days. Lots of down time.
Chumpcar has a single 7 to24 hr race and than nothing. , No down time. Lots of track time.

SCCA requires 2 schools for a novice permit. , cost is $1k min.
Chumpcar requires a single class room session and puts you on track. Somehow this works way better than it should.. The facts are that the very slow/new drivers get easily passed by the more experienced drivers and most have a steep learning curve.
The 4 drivers required also help each other out, like a team of personal coaches, IMHO.
My cars have done about 100hrs ontrack with Chump and have had no car to car contact. The endurance mind set , along with the speed differential keep this a low contact race.

My teams have a lot of ex SCCA guys that have crossed over TO Chumpcar, not the other way. The Chumpcar thing is viewed as a step up and away from the SCCA hassle and too many classes.
Too many classes, 2,3,4 or 5 cars per class=Bad

I would love to help SCCA make this work.
Required would be Novice permits issued for ex SCCA,and multi race Chumps.
Open/ one or two class 6 hr endurance races, preferably @ Night . ( 6 hr , 2 hr limit, 3 drivers per car, no fuel rigs!!))

Pack the track time into one day.
I would love to see a SCCA,regional weekend with split groups for sat and Sun. No reason that we should have to be there for 2 days for 4 short sessions.

Typical Chump transport may be 8-12 hrs driving. They wont want to drive that far for 2 hrs track time. Most wont go far for a single 7 hr race.
3/4 of my drivers fly in@ 1000 miles or more.

We need to appeal to these well funded racers , by increasing track time, making access easy, decreasing down time.

The best idea would be to add it to a World Challenge week end as a filler, fri eve or some other slow time. Keep the 1000$ entry fee and let em run. I could sell that. :)
MM

[rydermike]

Well said ^^^^^ . Chump is somewhat like short track racing when it comes to your time , You show up race and head home , and even if they are a double 7 hour race weekend , it's not like doing a 9am session then another in the afternoon and all the downtime.Heck , Chump dosen't even bother with qualifying sessions , and considering the lenth of the races it really wouldn't matter anyway. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1563869010794.2079454.1057426676&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=1750094146306&set=a.1563869010794.2079454.1057426676&type=3&theater

[downingracing]

I like the cross-over concepts and the alternative licensing paths being worked on. But I'm one of the people who like the long race weekend. I like having a session in the morning and one in the afternoon. This gives me plenty of time to watch my friend’s race and hang out at the track. And additional time to fix any ‘oops’ that happens during a qualifying session or race. A single day event does not appeal to me. I consider a race weekend to be a vacation like event that I do several times a year. Friday to Sunday (or Monday if the tow is long) is fine with me.

Now a 4 race weekend (with blind draw start for race #1) is something that sounds interesting to me. Many of our race weekends around here are 1 qualifying session Sat. with a race in the afternoon - followed by a qualifying race Sun morning and a final race Sun afternoon.

[StephenB]

I agree 100 percent with matt. I would look for alternate events if they were 1 day events.

MM, since chump cars are a step up how would you suggest to convince them to step back down to our type of events without redesigning what we already do. or is that just not possible?

Stephen

[Simon T.]

I would love to help SCCA make this work.
Required would be Novice permits issued for ex SCCA,and multi race Chumps.
Open/ one or two class 6 hr endurance races, preferably @ Night . ( 6 hr , 2 hr limit, 3 drivers per car, no fuel rigs!!))

Many tracks wouldn't easily allow that nor would many workers want to do that.

Pack the track time into one day.
I would love to see a SCCA,regional weekend with split groups for sat and Sun. No reason that we should have to be there for 2 days for 4 short sessions.

I personally like down time, it gives time to hang out with friends, fix things, and just enjoy time with others sharing a common interest. I like the idea of SCCA having better endurance racing, but I think it could easily be done with a good endurance series for IT cars and not needing junk cars, many drivers are turned off by the Chump/Lemons thing because it lacks credibility in the racing world as a legit form of racing and many teams/drivers show up completely new and can ruin your day.

The best idea would be to add it to a World Challenge week end as a filler, fri eve or some other slow time. Keep the 1000$ entry fee and let em run. I could sell that. :)
MM

If you really just recommended a Chump type class runs during a World Challenge weekend, that will NEVER happen. SCCA Pro would run away laughing before you could even finish a proposal.


.....

[rydermike]

.....

REALLY? You think these guys are more dangerous because they run a different series and "will ruin your weekend" You really need to see an event , with the considerable difference in cars (They run from slowish ITC like cars right on thru to V-8 Camaro/Mustang/Crown vic cop cars to a huge numer of Barbie Malibu Wagens)And there is less contact in a season than the avg club weekend of spec miata or spec club racer.And no matter what type race course or teams show up , YES any single bonehead move can screw someone over.

[rydermike]

Here is a link to a very truthful article : http://www.thecalifornian.com/article/20120310/LIFESTYLE/203100307
Please read with an open mind

[Simon T.]

REALLY? You think these guys are more dangerous because they run a different series and "will ruin your weekend" You really need to see an event , with the considerable difference in cars (They run from slowish ITC like cars right on thru to V-8 Camaro/Mustang/Crown vic cop cars to a huge numer of Barbie Malibu Wagens)And there is less contact in a season than the avg club weekend of spec miata or spec club racer.And no matter what type race course or teams show up , YES any single bonehead move can screw someone over.

No, some people think that. However it is true there are some bone head moves at these races, the RA round was stopped like 4 or 5 times I think. Do you trust a driver that went to one night of a classroom session for an hour to be racing wheel to wheel with you or someone that at least went to a legit school? Don't get me wrong, it works, because you could spot the new drivers racing and they do well at avoiding other cars, but stuff happens and I just think some people would agree it's far more likely to happen with someone extremely new than someone who had more training experience. The Road Atlanta race didn't have any major wrecks from what I can remember, the biggest issues being broken cars, a couple fires, and slicking down the track.

I've been to event and plan on racing some of them with the new car, I'm just being realistic.

[Simon T.]

Here is a link to a very truthful article : http://www.thecalifornian.com/article/20120310/LIFESTYLE/203100307
Please read with an open mind

I don't see your point in posting this as I know what Chump Car is having been to a race and like I said planning to race a few, I don't personally like all the humor stuff involved because I would prefer serious racing, not saying I don't like to have fun, but it just takes away something from me if I was chasing a Cressida wagon with a life size naked Ken doll bolted to the roof.

I don't see where the argument is going though. If you want to go run Chump Car instead of SCCA go for it, I think both could create a cool endurance series that has big fields and good races, to properly run Chump Car though you're not really spending much less than you would to run IT. You could probably win for less but the rest is the same.

[Flyinglizard]

Back on topic.

For this to be a success. It has to copy success.
1) The time on track vs time on trailer.
2) The ease of access.
3)I never said to issue novice permits to virgins. I said consider to issue a NP to two or more race Chumps.
4) Lack of down time.

Matt, No where did I say that if you had all of your sessions done in one day, that you had to leave!! Stay till monday if you want. Many younger drivers a have other people in their lives. It might be selfish to take the entire weekend away from family. Having a one day option, makes it an option.

SCCA is made up of retired engineers that their wives are happy if they get out of the house for a couple of days.
Younger people with money live in a different world, (so I am told.)
Races. Chumpcar races all races of 6 hr or more. Many well into darkeness. " Cant get workers and tracks dont allow it" is nonsense and not the truth. It just cost more money. Dont kid yourself, money gets it done.
Sebring 14hr, had the same worker set that SCCA does.

There are some Chumpcar drivers that would run the 30 min SCCA style of races . Cuz racing is racing. The downside is that the Chumpcar rules limit fuel tanks and driver stints , that results in a sort of a balance over the period of 12hrs. Not 30min.( (my Son would love to run his own race, in the Chumper. he is always about3- 4 sec per lap faster thananyone else)

How about this; Call the classes CCL and CCU, for over and under 7 in wheel width. ( That has been a huge speed differential maker for the class so far,lack of wheel size rule)

Run the races at the end of the day for at least 2 hrs.
Allow all class cars over the SM lap times, to compete.(have one qualifying session of 20 min or more, on the same day.)
Do this both days and charge according to track time. Drivers could race just one day.

Issue NP for drivers with 2 or more races.
Issue NP for valid track time and put into effect the "mentor" program.
Credit one school for one race.

FWIW the wining cars cost more than the IT cars but hide the cost out of site.
Iwould be happy to get this going, in the SE.

The class is the perfect WC filler, no tech, just plenty of various cars . WC just needs money also.
MM

[JS154]

No, some people think that. However it is true there are some bone head moves at these races, the RA round was stopped like 4 or 5 times I think. Do you trust a driver that went to one night of a classroom session for an hour to be racing wheel to wheel with you or someone that at least went to a legit school? Don't get me wrong, it works, because you could spot the new drivers racing and they do well at avoiding other cars, but stuff happens and I just think some people would agree it's far more likely to happen with someone extremely new than someone who had more training experience. The Road Atlanta race didn't have any major wrecks from what I can remember, the biggest issues being broken cars, a couple fires, and slicking down the track.

I've been to event and plan on racing some of them with the new car, I'm just being realistic.

I believe the point is not to run endurance crapcan events, nor is it to mix the crapcan class in with ITwhatever, it;s to give them a race group and try to grow participation and membership in the SCCA. It's not about the cars, it's all about the people.

[jjjanos]

Do you trust a driver that went to one night of a classroom session for an hour to be racing wheel to wheel with you or someone that at least went to a legit school?

If I don't know them from racing with them, I don't trust either of them. I've been around SCCA since 1973 and neither a legit school or 25 years of racing rids a driver of the stupid or the red mist.

[rydermike]

If I don't know them from racing with them, I don't trust either of them. I've been around SCCA since 1973 and neither a legit school or 25 years of racing rids a driver of the stupid or the red mist.

Well said ! Schooling whether it be racing or college isn't always a good measurment of true capabilities.

[Knestis]

I believe the point is not to run endurance crapcan events, nor is it to mix the crapcan class in with ITwhatever, it;s to give them a race group and try to grow participation and membership in the SCCA. It's not about the cars, it's all about the people.

And there's the potential rub.

If it is the enduro format that makes crapcan racing attractive and "affordable," then attempting to transplant *just* the car rules to SCCA sprint racing is going to be unsuccessful.

Similarly, if it's the byzantine "cost control" rules that make the cars "affordable," they won't continue to be so if that management structure doesn't come with the cars.

If the COMBINATION of all of the various factors is required for crapcan success, then the model has to be adopted as whole cloth. AND if part of that is the established brand and management - which cannot be appropriated - then the real solution would have to be to do combined events. We aren't very good at playing nice sometimes.

The problem is that we don't tend to think through the "why" of something before we latch onto it.

K

[RacerBill]

from Simon T.
If you really just recommended a Chump type class runs during a World Challenge weekend, that will NEVER happen. SCCA Pro would run away laughing before you could even finish a proposal.

For the second year, we are running an IT-Spec Miata Challange race at Mid-Ohio combined with the Grand-Am Weekend! There is oppotunity out there to run on Pro weekends.

[Flyinglizard]

Just by allowing the class may bring a few of the G1 cars. The early , real 500$ cars that have been evolved out of contention.
There are about 1200 crap cans racing.
The problem will be finding a group that puts up with them.
I have rented my CC for the SCCA schools in the past and had no issues. The drivers are just trying to get through the weekend.

I ran a PDX with it and they went crazy. (Sebring short, the cars' design track).
SCCA wont gather enough cars, trying for their own group, esp with a short race format. The few that do show up, may not come back due to the attitude of the SCCA crowd.
The older, ex SCCA guys may never come back due to the same reception, of superiority etc. That is why they are at Chumpcar. The people are nice.

I see very little market for a sprint race format.
I see a small market for allowing CC to be used at the driver schools.

I see no market if the Chumpcar races are not used as a school credit.
It is all about the money. track time VS $. Chumpcar is 1000$ entry and 14hr track time, min.
SCCA is maybe 300$ entry, 2hrs max track time, plus the 2 days of "life time."

While my Crap can drivers are some of the best funded drivers that I have worked with over the years, they still just want to drive a lot.
FWIW I still have one seat open for the 14HRS @ Daytona, 850$(3 cars @ 4 drivers per)
80 cars will start the race, same @ SEbring, 14hrs.
The market is so strong that I am taking apart IT cars for these races.
How can SCCA compete?

[jjjanos]

Let us do the math....

SCCA:
$300 entry fee for 1 hour track time at max. = $5/minute
plus the wear and tear on the vehicle
plus the needless replacement of perfectly good safety equipment
plus the cost of getting there
plus membership
plus license fee
plus the cost of the physical on a regular basis
plus the "you owe me" cost of leaving the spouse and little ones at home alone
or the almost equally expensive "you owe me" cost of taking same spouse to the track
plus the car itself
plus the cost of any extraordinary damage to the car

Allsports Grand Prix
$24.50 for 8 minutes or $3.06/minute
<carriage return>

Chumpcar
Someone else do the per minute cost, but I bet it's a hell of alot less than SCCA.

The only thing I can't figure out is how one finds a vehicle that legally meets all of their $500 value requirements.

[jhooten]

Oregon region:
I hope your plan works and you attract many new members by trying it.

Naysayers:
Besides sitting on your hands and spouting negativity what are you doing to grow the membership and attract new racers or workers?

[JIgou]

At my Region's annual driver's meeting, I asked if SCCA's new "mentoring" licensing program could utilize observed participation in a Chump race as a basis for issuing a novice permit. Seat time is typically the second reason they use for not crossing over to SCCA.

Chris, I have tentative approval for this in the format we discussed. So there's one hurdle removed. :D



I don't think Oregon, or any other region, will have much luck attracting the existing crapcan racecars simply by offering a class for them. The licensing, tech, and shared car ownership will be stumbling blocks to any driver who wants to give SCCA a try with his/her team's car. With that said, these “chumps” are out there turning wrenches, building caged race cars, and learning racecraft. SCCA needs to find a way to make them feel welcome because many have the perception that they would not be.

Along with Chris, we had two other entries in our regional-only "ChumpCar-esque" classes last year. Not a huge number, but in this area every single entry makes a difference.

The "E11" rules we brought the chumpcars in under are in this document:

http://http://www.dlbracing.com/download.filx?FileID=1337

We'll be doing it again for 2012.

Jarrod

[JLawton]

And there's the potential rub.

If it is the enduro format that makes crapcan racing attractive and "affordable," then attempting to transplant *just* the car rules to SCCA sprint racing is going to be unsuccessful.

Similarly, if it's the byzantine "cost control" rules that make the cars "affordable," they won't continue to be so if that management structure doesn't come with the cars.

If the COMBINATION of all of the various factors is required for crapcan success, then the model has to be adopted as whole cloth. AND if part of that is the established brand and management - which cannot be appropriated - then the real solution would have to be to do combined events. We aren't very good at playing nice sometimes.

The problem is that we don't tend to think through the "why" of something before we latch onto it.

K

I don't think the "class" will be successful but what it will do is allow guys who got a taste of wheel to wheel an opportunity to expand on it without having to go out and buy another car. That cost (or perception of cost) is what keeps a lot of people away from racing. So we have now introduced a whole new population of potential racers to SCCA. That's why I like the concept.

[forestdweller37]

chris, i have tentative approval for this in the format we discussed. So there's one hurdle removed. :d

jarrod
:023:

[downingracing]

...The few that do show up, may not come back due to the attitude of the SCCA crowd. The older, ex SCCA guys may never come back due to the same reception, of superiority etc. That is why they are at Chumpcar. The people are nice....

Wow... The attitude of the SCCA crowd?? I don't know where you are from or where you race, but I can guarantee it isn't anywhere around Ohio, Indiana, Michigan! The folks running SCCA around here are the nicest people you can hope to meet racing! There are definitely d-bags at every event (there is at least one in every group!), but they are the exception.


I'm glad their format works for them. And I wish them all the success they can have! I don't see the regions around here having the time in the schedule for an enduro-type event to attract those drivers. Counting their seat time towards a license - no problem. Changing the format of weekends that attract tons of drivers and are successful - I don't see it happening.

On the topic of licensing - I do think it is funny that there is such a to-do about how 'hard' it is to get an SCCA license. Back when I did it, I did 2 different weekends to get my regional license. Now, you can just do one weekend and you're good to go! I'm not sure how much easier it needs to be. 1 weekend and you have a competition license. You can go from 'I'd like to do that' on Friday to 'I'm now doing it!' on Sunday! All just my .02¢ :)

[Simon T.]

from Simon T.
If you really just recommended a Chump type class runs during a World Challenge weekend, that will NEVER happen. SCCA Pro would run away laughing before you could even finish a proposal.

For the second year, we are running an IT-Spec Miata Challange race at Mid-Ohio combined with the Grand-Am Weekend! There is oppotunity out there to run on Pro weekends.

HUGE difference though in running IT cars and Chump Cars, SCCA Pro Racing from what I've heard is very strict on professional appearance, I don't know if they would even let IT cars run at a WC weekend like GA does. It would be awesome, but I'm just thinking realistically.



The older, ex SCCA guys may never come back due to the same reception, of superiority etc. That is why they are at Chumpcar. The people are nice.

People aren't nice in the SCCA? Every club/race group has "those guys." I've been in SCCA paddocks for years even not racing and have met a lot of nice people, more than anywhere else. When I ran last year's ARRC I was even more impressed with all of the help that was given, pointers, and just friendly attitudes. I love the strong competition you see in the paddock and on track but it seems like for the most part at the end of the day everyone can have a drink and be friendly.

If SCCA wants to compete with these crap can endurance series they should just make a large endurance series, ITJ being a class for these cars, the rest are typical ECR classes. Long races, 4 hours minimum, even have a weekend dedicated to just the series. You can run your $500 car or you can run a $20,000 IT car and win. I know Chump has the exceptions class or whatever but you aren't really competing.

[SMac92]

This might sound odd, but what if regions that need the entry numbers made a class/run group of non-competition cars and non-licensed drivers. It can be stock cars driven to the track, semi-prepared race cars, ChumpCars/LeMons, whatever. The only requirement was to have the car looked over by a mechanic, have a number on the side, and then have a SA2005 helmet (those could be available for rent). No other safety equipment and drivers can add upgrades to their car as wanted.

There could be 3 races or so per season that include this run group for one day so that it will gain more entries than if it was included in every race. We already sign our lives away every time we race, if these competitors do the same, then there doesn't seem to be a lot of conflict. It will offer drivers a cheap way to dive into wheel to wheel competition with nothing holding them back if they don't like it. This is basically a PDX without the instructor and participants can pass anywhere. I think the ChumpCar class is good for any region that needs the entries, but it might be a bit of a risk for the regions that don't.

Steven

[Simon T.]

This might sound odd, but what if regions that need the entry numbers made a class/run group of non-competition cars and non-licensed drivers. It can be stock cars driven to the track, semi-prepared race cars, ChumpCars/LeMons, whatever. The only requirement was to have the car looked over by a mechanic, have a number on the side, and then have a SA2005 helmet (those could be available for rent). No other safety equipment and drivers can add upgrades to their car as wanted.

There could be 3 races or so per season that include this run group for one day so that it will gain more entries than if it was included in every race. We already sign our lives away every time we race, if these competitors do the same, then there doesn't seem to be a lot of conflict. It will offer drivers a cheap way to dive into wheel to wheel competition with nothing holding them back if they don't like it. This is basically a PDX without the instructor and participants can pass anywhere. I think the ChumpCar class is good for any region that needs the entries, but it might be a bit of a risk for the regions that don't.

Steven

That sounds like a death trap to me. lol I'm all for open passing track days but when you add competition to it the chances of contact and wrecks greatly add up. I don't think the club's insurance would like it too much either.

[Matt93SE]

wheel to wheel without a cage and full safety equipment just won't happen.. that scares me just thinking about it.

I've raced LeMons for several years and many current and ex-SCCA racers are playing there. Lots of the front-running Club Racers also build, race, and maintain theirs and others' Chump/LeMons cars. Our KeMons team plans to do start doing some Chump races this year as well, and will probably move away from LeMons due to the stupid penalties and down time of simply going 2 wheels off.
....A note on driver skill here... At Lemons, if you spin the car, hit someone (minor contact), or put 4 wheels off, they park your car for half an hour. If you do it again, they park you for an hour. Do it a third time, and your day is done. If you HIT someone, you get more severe penalties. bad driving is very harshly penalized. I haven't run ChumpCar yet, but I understand the rules are closer to club racing. i.e. 4wheels off and continue is no big deal, but punting someone is dealt with quickly and severely.

the cage in our LeMons Miata is an SCCA-legal cage-- had it done by the same shop that did the cage in my STU car. LeMons cage rules are pretty much the same as IT cage rules, except they still allow ERW tubing. I *think* that rule has been changed, with previously registered cars grandfathered in. Just like older IT cars.

the required driver safety gear is the same as SCCA. Must be SA2005 or better helmet, full face, SFI 3.5A/5 or better suit, some sort of neck protection- at minimum you need a collar, but many/most run a HANS or similar. If you have an open top car, you must wear arm restraints.

You gotta have a fire extinguisher. handheld is OK, but many teams are running a full-blown fire bottle and fuel cell.


the prep level on the faster-running LeMons cars are similar to an IT-type build. big radiator, blueprinted engine (some with intake, headers, and cams), coilovers, better brakes than most IT cars since brakes are considered a safety feature and don't fall under the $500 rule. I see Wilwoods and bigger OEM brake setups on many cars.

As for the safety differences between the cars, as long as the car meets SCCA's safety requirements, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to run. no windshield? Treat it like an open top Prod or GT car, and require the driver to wear full face helmet and arm restraints.


I see this as a good entry level class to get some of the serious chump guys entered into

Licensing? If the car is safety-legal, then the drivers can go to an SCCA school and get a novice permit. Houston Region's Super School is a 2.5day event (fri evening classroom + sat & sun on track) and was about $600 IIRC. I walked away with 8 hrs of wheel to wheel track time and a novice permit. done. That's the same cost of running a Chump race for most of these people with just as much track time, so they won't complain.

Hell, I almost want to go back to another school just for some additional instruction and cheap track time. :) ..back to the point..

I don't see any reason to call this a bad idea. done right, it will bring new people (of all ages) to SCCA, and expose some of the old stuffy club racers to people who like racing because it's FUN.

[forestdweller37]

If SCCA wants to compete with these crap can endurance series they should just make a large endurance series, ITJ being a class for these cars, the rest are typical ECR classes. Long races, 4 hours minimum, even have a weekend dedicated to just the series. You can run your $500 car or you can run a $20,000 IT car and win. I know Chump has the exceptions class or whatever but you aren't really competing.

We have the IT Tour, BFG Super Tour, Regional, National, Rational, Majors, and Showcase weekends. (I probably missed a few...) Why not an SCCA Endurance Challenge?

But seriously, everyone on my Chump team really enjoys endurance racing on real street tires (huge cost savings when you're on track for hours). The car being a "crapcan" does not really appeal to us. But what else is there? NASA doesn't run any endurance races of real length in the Midwest. If the opportunity to race a "nice" car around the SS*/SM/IT* prep level on street tires existed, I think we'd vote to jump ship. Of course this is probably how the "I" classes get created LOL. :rolleyes:

And what of the people racing formula and sports racing cars? They would not mix well with the tin tops. Likewise there are some pretty big speed differentials amongst those tin tops that would need to be considered. It would not do to exclude them. Although there could be a slew of empty seats available for them with the teams that can race those weekends.

[Flyinglizard]

The SCCA has been only fair to our family over the last 20 yrs. I expect the volunteers to do their jobs, and I am sure that I have made a lot of my luck.
97% of SCCA are great people and without the workers and all of the volunteers we could not do this. If you want details please email me.

Chumpcar is almost exactly the same, racing wise as SCCA . We have offs and no big deal. Just dont hit any chicane barriers or cut the course. All fair and logical.

I would say to post the Crap Can Class in "sportscar" with the normal format and see how many hits you get. Most will say, "not enough track time and the race is to short for our team".
See what it takes for the regions to extend saturday track time until 9:00. Buy pizza and beer, rent your own Bambulance if you have to.
The night races will draw cars and new racers.
Night races will draw cars.

I will bring 3 cars/ 9 drivers, for any Sebring, 6hr night race.


I would vouch for all of my drivers for NP or regional license . Non are current SCCA holders. 2 have lapsed, 2 are PDX guys with lots of laps and about 5 CHump races.

If you were thoughtful, SCCA could issue novice permits(to Chump racers with 2 or more races), run this group all by itself @ 4:00 or 5:00 , calling it a drivers school. Run a 4 hr race.
Post race, the successful drivers could all get the second school credit . Good to go and race SCCA. There, you have a way.

[gran racing]

run this group all by itself @ 4:00 or 5:00 , calling it a drivers school. Run a 4 hr race.

Many tracks that I'm aware of this would not be possible. Take a look at the majority of tracks where Chump and LeMons run. Summit Point? Nope. The secondary circuit. Nelson...need I say more (although appreciate the grassroots effort they have there).

[rydermike]

Many tracks that I'm aware of this would not be possible. Take a look at the majority of tracks where Chump and LeMons run. Summit Point? Nope. The secondary circuit. Nelson...need I say more (although appreciate the grassroots effort they have there).
Really? You consider tracks like Laguna Seca 2nd tier? Here's a list of Chump tracks , oddly all same as SCCA runs plus maybe a few!
AUTO CLUB SPEEDWAY
BEAVERUN MOTORSPORTS PARK
BRAINERD INT'L RACEWAY
BUTTONWILLOW RACEWAY
CALABOGIE MOTORSPORTS PARK
CHARLOTTE MOTOR SPEEDWAY
DAYTONA INT'L SPEEDWAY
EAGLES CANYON RACEWAY
EDMONTON (CFB)
GATEWAY INT'L RACEWAY
GIMLI MOTORSPORTS PARK
GRAND BEND RACEWAY
HARRIS HILL RACEWAY
HEARTLAND PARK RACEWAY
HIGH PLAINS RACEWAY
INFINEON RACEWAY
IOWA SPEEDWAY
LA JUNTA RACEWAY
MEMPHIS MOTORSPORTS PARK
MICHIGAN INT'L SPEEDWAY
NELSON LEDGES ROAD COURSE
NEW JERSEY MOTORSPORTS PARK
NOLA MOTORSPORTS PARK
PALM BEACH INT'L RACEWAY
PIKES PEAK INT'L RACEWAY
PORTLAND INT'L RACEWAY
ROAD AMERICA
ROAD ATLANTA
SEBRING INT'L RACEWAY
SHANNONVILLE RACEWAY
SPOKANE COUNTY RACEWAY
STREETS OF ENSENADA
STREETS OF MEXICALI
STREETS OF WILLOW
TEXAS WORLD SPEEDWAY
THE RIDGE MOTORSPORTS PARK
VIRGINIA INT'L RACEWAY
And to make it more intersting as well as challenging at Iowa Speedway last years "Chumpionship" ran both the roval as well as oval, are YOU ready to do 31 second just shy of 100 mph avg speed laps?

[Simon T.]

...are YOU ready to do 31 second just shy of 100 mph avg speed laps?

I don't get what you're saying here. :shrug:

[lawtonglenn]

Chumpcar. Someone else do the per minute cost, but I bet it's a hell of alot less than SCCA.



FWIW I still have one seat open for the 14HRS @ Daytona, 850$(3 cars @ 4 drivers per)


$850/driver / ((14hr x 60min/hr)/4 drivers) = $4/min

.

[Speed Raycer]

I haven't read all the responses. Don't really need to as it's nothing that I haven't read before when other forums talk SCCA vs Crapcan.

The drivers are the same in both. Some great. Some not. Some predictable. Some not. The initial cost of the car is less, but other than that, costs are the same EXCEPT the costs typically get split among 4-6 guys. That is a HUGE factor.

IMO, the ONLY reason someone will run their crap can with the SCCA class is to get some seat time at a track or to shake the car down for the next Crapcan race.

I've run with my CHUMP team for the past 3 years. I can honestly say its the best and most exciting racing I've ever had. I've let my SCCA licence expire. No desire to renew it as I don't really see coming back to sprint racing any time soon. I will be returning to SCCA PDX's though... to shake down the chumpcar and get our drivers some more seat time.

[DavidM]

Somebody 'splain to me what's the difference between chumpcar races and SCCA enduros. SCCA does some 12 hour races as well. What makes chumpcar better, or at least more subscribed? If the attraction of chumpcar is that you can spread the cost amongst multiple people and get a decent amount of seat time then it would seem SCCA enduros offer the same thing. Should SCCA look more at putting on enduro format races instead of sprint races?

David

[Greg Amy]

The perception -- well, *my* perception -- of the attraction of ChumpCar (and LeMons) is that it's cheaper, primarily in the realm of building a car. Which is true, right up to the point that someone wants to win. At that point, it's no more a $500 car than the GRM 2012 Challenge cars cost $2012 (unless your name is Mike Brewer and you have a guy named Edd China working for you...)

In that mindset, the difference between ChumpCar and Improved Touring is in name only.... - GA

[boywonder]

Somebody 'splain to me what's the difference between chumpcar races and SCCA enduros. SCCA does some 12 hour races as well. What makes chumpcar better, or at least more subscribed? If the attraction of chumpcar is that you can spread the cost amongst multiple people and get a decent amount of seat time then it would seem SCCA enduros offer the same thing. Should SCCA look more at putting on enduro format races instead of sprint races?

David

My opinion on why the crapcan races receive more entries is simply that entry into a ChumpCar event over an SCCA sanctioned event is perceived to be easier by most normal (read: those not already holding SCCA racing licenses/memberships) people. The bar is set lower w/ fewer hoops (read: less time commitment) to jump through and perceived lower costs (having done both I can attest that they are actually very close) split between friends that you're also building a car with. It's all perception.

Having run a few dozen SCCA sprint races and a handful of LeMons endurance races, I can attest to the fact that there is a big difference in the racing and especially the quality of racers on the track - but I'd still pick crapcan enduro races over SCCA enduros purely because of car count. 100 cars on the track, even if half don't finish and more than half are driven by clueless maniacs, is still more fun than racing against 14 well-prepped cars and teams.

/my $.02

[Knestis]

Somebody 'splain to me what's the difference between chumpcar races and SCCA enduros. SCCA does some 12 hour races as well. What makes chumpcar better, or at least more subscribed? If the attraction of chumpcar is that you can spread the cost amongst multiple people and get a decent amount of seat time then it would seem SCCA enduros offer the same thing. Should SCCA look more at putting on enduro format races instead of sprint races?

David

Good question...

** TIRES - If we ran on crap tries that lasted all day, we'd save a lot of dough. For that to make sense, everyone has to be in the same boat and they would have to be the same hard junk that crapcan cars currently use.

** ENTHUSIASM - The crap cars are still the realm of the band of brothers who hang out and work on the car. That keeps down service costs, translating into lower per-hour $$.

** IGNORANCE - I'd argue that a lot of the Chump/Lemons car owners are still deluded by their own perceptions that their cars are really cheap. They haven't gotten in the habit of adding up their actual costs because they are so used to adding up their FICTIONAL costs to make their $500 arguments.

Because of all of the above, per-hour seat prices (not costs) are still artificially low.

K

EDIT - I'm going to reiterate my prediction of convergence; that eventually crap car enduros will be indistinguishable from "real" enduros, irrespective of who is left standing to sanction the races.

[forestdweller37]

Somebody 'splain to me what's the difference between chumpcar races and SCCA enduros. SCCA does some 12 hour races as well. What makes chumpcar better, or at least more subscribed? If the attraction of chumpcar is that you can spread the cost amongst multiple people and get a decent amount of seat time then it would seem SCCA enduros offer the same thing. Should SCCA look more at putting on enduro format races instead of sprint races?

David

Chumpcar puts on enough enduros for teams with shared car ownership to form and make a season of it. SCCA's enduros are more of an exception than the norm.

If SCCA had a set of enduro classes similar the five used for "The Devil in the Dark" and promoted a nation-wide endurance series, would it be well subscribed? Would it draw in new member-drivers?

[zchris]

Not everyone likes the scca ruleset. Its very restrictive and does not leave much wiggle room. I bet that alot of what poeple that are attracted to chumpcar and lemons like is the freedom to do as they like building the cars. Some like to feel they can build an advantage into there car by superior car choice and building. Thats where chumpcar and lemons is attractive to many. Its why its not attractive to me. I would like to think my driving is the key to winning. But different strokes for different folks. The scca needs to realize we cannot be everything to everyone. The biggest problem scca has is to many events. Cut the supply of events down and the # of racers per event will go up. And the interest in scca may go up as well.
Chris Howard

[Flyinglizard]

Ease of entry, lack of hassle, are the good points of Chumps. The subjective AIV(average internet value) and such will be the downfall.
The tire rule is nice. tires last 3 races on most cars. Not 1 per 2 hr.

The SCCA is percieved to be a major hassle getting a license and getting thru tech.
Have you guys looked at the boards from an outsider point of view?? Washer bottles, shifter bushings. etc.
Ease of entry, makes it happen.
Advertising. SCCA has next to none.
MM

[TStiles]

Quick Chump Story :

- I had a student at a DE , good student , eager to learn , good skills , good mechanical skills , plenty of disposable income.

- Student did a few DE events and asked me about racing , I encouraged him to go get an SM and run it as an ITA car to get his feet wet

- Student was frustrated by the SCCA process , medicals , forms , licensing , schools , tech , ect. so he didn't do anything

- Student found ChumpCar , bought a car , rebuilt it ( several times ) ... He's raced the snot out of it , he's had a blast , and has spent more than enough to develop and run a 1st class IT car

- Student finds this thread , and is very confused as to why some of us are snobs about the SCCA process. He wants to come race with us , but between the barriers to entry and some of our attitudes , it's unlikely

Let's face it guys , our barriers to entry are a problem.

I can tell the prospective SCCA racer to ignore the perceived snobs , but I can't do anything about the barriers to entry outside of guiding the prospective racer thru the process.

Another guy on the same Chump team , who instructs with several groups picked up a nice fully built E36 and is going to go race. I can't even get him to give SCCA a sniff , he's NASA all the way ( loves the NASA 4 sessions per day / hates the SCCA 2 sessions per day )

[lawtonglenn]

...frustrated by the SCCA process , medicals , forms , licensing , schools , tech , ect. so he didn't do anything
...

I am wondering if there is there a series that allows people with:


intermittent seizures that cause a loss of motor skills (medical, forms)?

no clue about the way to negotiate a green flag start, signal that you about to pit-in, or what to do when confronted with a waving yellow (schools)?

serious lack of judgement on the track and around traffic (licensing, schools)?

dangerously unsafe cars that threaten competitors as well as the driver (tech)?

and I am also wondering.... if there is, do you want to subject yourself to the risk of being near such a person in a race? ... I don't.

.

[rydermike]

I am wondering if there is there a series that allows people with:


intermittent seizures that cause a loss of motor skills (medical, forms)?

no clue about the way to negotiate a green flag start, signal that you about to pit-in, or what to do when confronted with a waving yellow (schools)?

serious lack of judgement on the track and around traffic (licensing, schools)?

dangerously unsafe cars that threaten competitors as well as the driver (tech)?

and I am also wondering.... if there is, do you want to subject yourself to the risk of being near such a person in a race? ... I don't.

.

Intermitten sizures? Then they shouldn't even possess a street license which is reqired everywhere

They do have a friday night "ground school" to instruct you on the flagging and basic procedures

Lack of judgement isn't something seen much , MUCH LESS CONTACT than the avg SCCA race , if anything the newbies are extremely carfeul and watching their mirrors and point you by way before you get to them

Dangerous cars? There is real tech and safety is a big deal

I can say this about the Chumpcar stuff , but I can;t about the lemons , no experiience with that group.

[lawtonglenn]

aha!... you ASSUME that I was speaking of ChumpCar, I was not

I was just reading ChumpCar's lengthy rule book (I like the humor in its style)
and ChumpCar DOES have forms, schools, licensing, and tech

http://www.chumpcar.com/dev/cms/assets/downloads/chumpcar-rules.pdf

I was commenting on the DE student's frustration at having to actually complete
forms, schools, licensing, and tech, and wondering if there is ANY
series that would not require these.

.

[TStiles]

aha!... you ASSUME that I was speaking of ChumpCar, I was not

I was just reading ChumpCar's lengthy rule book (I like the humor in its style)
and ChumpCar DOES have forms, schools, licensing, and tech

http://www.chumpcar.com/dev/cms/assets/downloads/chumpcar-rules.pdf

I was commenting on the DE student's frustration at having to actually complete
forms, schools, licensing, and tech, and wondering if there is ANY
series that would not require these.

.

It's not just one thing , it's the perception of SCCA process of a+b+c+d+e+f , ect. I think a lot of people see our requirements , get frustrated , then just hit the EZ button , and go Chump racing

I can easily count 10 guys who I've met thru DE's that have gone racing , not a one has ended up in SCCA

It's may not be an issue for your division , but we don't have a Driver's School in SW Division anymore ... Unless a new guy has somebody to guide him thru the process , the process is perceived as difficult and perception is reality.

[TStiles]

[QUOTE=rydermike;334543

Lack of judgement isn't something seen much , MUCH LESS CONTACT than the avg SCCA race , if anything the newbies are extremely carfeul and watching their mirrors and point you by way before you get to them

I can say this about the Chumpcar stuff .[/QUOTE]

I've seen both sides of driver judgement in ChumpCar , the vast majority are aware and are pretty good about point bys ... One the other hand , I've encountered a few that want to block ..... How does that compare with SCCA ? About the same except when somebody does something stupid in Chump it's at a much lower speed

[Flyinglizard]

Speeds are the same as ITB, tunr speed is lower, straight speed is higher.
Cages are more than IT.

[jjjanos]

I am wondering if there is there a series that allows people with:


intermittent seizures that cause a loss of motor skills (medical, forms)?

no clue about the way to negotiate a green flag start, signal that you about to pit-in, or what to do when confronted with a waving yellow (schools)?

serious lack of judgement on the track and around traffic (licensing, schools)?

dangerously unsafe cars that threaten competitors as well as the driver (tech)?
and I am also wondering.... if there is, do you want to subject yourself to the risk of being near such a person in a race? ... I don't.

I've seen all 4 at the same SCCA NATIONAL.

[downingracing]

..The biggest problem scca has is to many events. Cut the supply of events down and the # of racers per event will go up. And the interest in scca may go up as well. Chris Howard

Maybe... But at least for me, I pick the events on the schedule that I want to do on the weekends I can be available. If there are less SCCA events that fall on weekends I'm available, I do less events. I'd bet that others would consider running with another club if they had an available weekend and the other club had an offering...

[jhooten]

The biggest problem scca has is to many events. Cut the supply of events down and the # of racers per event will go up. And the interest in scca may go up as well.
Chris Howard


I disagreed with the area director when he said this and I disagree you. However I will concede the situation may be different in your area.

Our 4 tracks are spread way out. The closest is an 80 mile tow for me and the farthest is about 250. That is just for in division races. Our 16 weekend schedule lets me pick and choose which races at which tracks I can attend based on work, family, and other conflicting events. If we only had 8 race weekends it would be extremely difficult to make enough races to qualify for the divisional championship. Maybe retirement will change that but I doubt it.

And IF we cut down on our winter races where would the snow birds have to go?

[Flyinglizard]

I see the same track rats at the track, no matter who is puttin on the weekend. So I dont think that SCCA has too many events. (FL.)
Track time per day is really weak with SCCA. I see that somebody else also mentioned the NASA 4sessions per day, with 4 or 5 groups. NASA treats it's racers like customers it wants back. We seem to treat them like a PITA.
I dont know how to change it. but dead time at the track does not help.
Todays kids, and even I, like to get on track , not sit around in the sun.
There is way too much of" That's how we do it"
It should be " how can we do it better?"
Just like a "talk around" post race or hot lap, with my drivers. We go over each area of the track, and see what can be better.
When you think that you had a perfect corner, you may as well stop racing.
Same with a race weekend. Maybe we should actually talk to the youngest people and newest members and see what is liked and what could be improved. There is no way to improve , if you dont look for ways.
For a start; NASA and Chump has sat evening trophy handouts and a small gathering of the racers to laugh and drink a beer or eat a hot dog.
Most of the best/fun events I have been involved with had similar.

I doubt that SCCA can draw much from Chumpcar. The racers are a different frame of mind. SCCA is a bunch of lawyers, Chumps are a big bunch of care free racers, (some lawyers ). Some Chumps have Lots of money but dont want to be hassled by the little games and ladders of SCCA.
They just write a check and race.

Also; You can fly an airplane with a drivers license medical, but you cant race a car with SCCA. That should get a real look if SCCA wants to compete for these newer clients. We still have more heart attacks than anyone else, how is the med doing anything other than raising the entry bar/hassle expense?
The med test could be; get out of the car in less than 20sec with a bag over the helmet.

I do see a small opportunity for Chumpcar racers; The Chump format requires 4 drivers. Some of the time,2 or 3 may not be very good. The best driver may want to race a solo event. Mine does. Maybe tailor a 4 session weekend to have two drivers split the car. That allows the team to be together and for two drivers to run the car. This makes the most sense,as i type it.
SCCA would still need to; Credit the race time for school time on track
Copy the success of the team effort
Copy the "medical success" somehow
Copy the track time density, better.
Have a small party for trophies. Give out top three no matter how many are in the class.Duh.

SCCA will still need to advertise in some relevant places. grass roots, Road and track Inet. Chumpcar forum.. Make it not the secretsports car club.

I would be happy to help set the basic rules and format.
MM

[lateapex911]

Also; You can fly an airplane with a drivers license medical, but you cant race a car with SCCA. That should get a real look if SCCA wants to compete for these newer clients. We still have more heart attacks than anyone else, how is the med doing anything other than raising the entry bar/hassle expense?
The med test could be; get out of the car in less than 20sec with a bag over the helmet.


MM

I agree with you on this one.
Thats an area that has really caused me pause with the SCCA. Are they REALLY concerned with safety? The insistence on running a H&NR, proper suit and proper cages says "yes".
The fact that I'll have to spend nearly $2 thousand and I'll be LESS safe than I was BEFORE the mandate, says, "not really", we're really just as concerned with political stuff.
And the fact that more drivers die from on track 'self inflicted'* medical events than are killed by basilar skull fracture, and fire combined tells me, "no".

And before you say, "Well, thats because the rules require a H&NR device, so of course basilar skull fracture death is low", I'm talking about the period before they were mandated.

This might be a harsh thing to say but, each and every time this is brought up, it gets NO play. The higher ups look the other way. Roll their eyes. It's the dirty little big secret in the Secret Car Club of America.
Why??
Because we are old. The guys who the rule will hurt are the guys who write the rule. For many, a REAL stress test to determine the suitability of one to operate a racing car in extreme heat, etc, will be a fail. No more racing.
Furhter, it's my suspicion that the ruleswriters are fearful that a legitimate "line in the sand" will eliminate far more than just the rulesmakers...it will have a significant effect on entries.
Finally, it's the old schools last stand. The right to die doing something you love. How can we take that away? And who believes those stupid stress tests anyway? Get off my lawn.

(And there's merit to that position, IF the only guy to go is the guy having the incident. But many others are affected, even tangentially. The corner worker who finds the dead body. The event which might be delayed and stopped early, and those who run it. The track and the investigators. The family who lost a loved one possibly a decade early. And then there's the collateral damage aspect. Suppose the car jerks right...down pit lane, at 100, and strikes grid workers or pit workers...it could be a tragedy. Longshot? yea, odds are against it, but....)

I have written in and requested that we be required to attach all of our devices, and then get out as you suggested. It was rejected. The SCCA stated that such a requirement would run afoul of the "Americans with disabilities act" and that the club could be sued by somebody for not allowing equal access to the activities that it sanctions.
Kirk Knestis followed up with a nearly identical request. This time, the answer was that the club "Saw no need for such a standard". (or something similar, perhaps Kirk can be more exact.

Simple bottom line in life and in this case, people do what they want to do. I don't think the club is interested in any such test, for various reasons.

* By "self inflicted" I mean that no outside event caused the incident, it was a medical seizure/ heart attack or the like.

[rydermike]

Even the FAA took away the medical certification for SOME of the recreational flier;s out there, a drivers license is now good enough if you meet all the other training requierments (At least 20 hours of instruction , previously 40 hour min) for a "Sport Pilot" ticket. And I believe it is just a matter of time before other private pilot licenses follow that path once there is a pattern that the sport pilot guys have no more in flight medical incidents that those with medical certs.And being most street people have zero clue on what SCCA is.

[Simon T.]

Track time per day is really weak with SCCA. I see that somebody else also mentioned the NASA 4sessions per day, with 4 or 5 groups. NASA treats it's racers like customers it wants back. We seem to treat them like a PITA.

I'm going to guess you haven't ran a NASA event. lol

[Flyinglizard]

The last 4 NASA weekends were 3 sat and 2 sun. (For SM)
Simon, If you have something to say, just say it. Pleae dont imply anything, spew facts. Thanks, MM

[Simon T.]

The last 4 NASA weekends were 3 sat and 2 sun. (For SM)
Simon, If you have something to say, just say it. Pleae dont imply anything, spew facts. Thanks, MM

I've just never had any good experience with NASA, my first impression of them was horrible and not much has changed, I'm not the only one either. NASA wants money, nothing more. Their safety is questionable to the point where I'm not sure I'd even feel safe running another event with them, at least not around here, some of the stories I've heard amaze me. It's not my spot to tell all the details about what I've seen or heard.

NASA appeals to the younger crowd because of the HPDE, time trials, and for those that want to road race the classes allow more freedom modifying.

The only real appeal NASA wise to me is the endurance racing, typically longer than the SCCA enduros and they run a 8 hour at Road Atlanta every December that brings some big teams out. Aside from that though I have no interest.

Someone once told me "If you want to race, race with the SCCA, if you want to dick around, play with NASA."

[Flyinglizard]

Ran last weekend with NASA, @ Sebring;
Nice guy @ tech, nice people @ reg.
3 sesssions sat, 1 race
4 sessions sun , 2 races.
No wrecks..
They had a driver meeting stating the passing policy and that any contact had to fillout paperwork.
Track was hot all day. The group that was coming off, was checkered and the next group was let on, overlapping with a pace car between the groups. The pregrid was moved to the EMT house road so that traffic did not cross.
50 to 60 cars per group.
Very efficient, well run two days.
The system was not perfect; The pace car bunched up the race group for qualifying. We sat in the pits until the group came around T 17. So the waiting went from(SCCA) sitting in the grid, to rolling around the track, bunched up.
The day is "time priority" not "race priority" . If someone went off hard or leaked all over the track the timed session would stay the same.
CFR SCCA, tries to get a race in regardless of the wrecks. But waste a lot of time clearing the track between groups. Esp @ long tracks like Sebring. Lime Rock had a more flowing on and off track system.
NASA had 4-5 Ferraris ,.lots more $.
I did not take the Chumpcar. Too much going on.
Plenty safe, plenty nice. IMHO. We could/should learn from them.

[ericblois]

im from the area, Oregon that is. im surprised no one has said that the region also added a Drift run group so now the local drifter have a group to run in. I race with ICSCC in the area and our car counts are about 3-4 times that of SCCA. this should be good for all of us racers in the northwest. NASA and PCA BWCCA none of them hold races in the northwest so we are stuck with SCCA, ICSCC and now chump and lemons. I have an ITA bmw and i can say almost every one of the chump cars in the area are at least as built as my ITA car is. they dont have a min weight so they are all supper light.
I now have 7 (8 if you count Bremerton which is an old airport runway) tracks with in 500 miles of my home so its all depends on who i want to race with and how many races my wallet can afford. closest to farthest PIR, ORP, The ridge, Bremerton, PR, mission , Spokane and Thunderhill.

[RacerBill]

Even the FAA took away the medical certification for SOME of the recreational flier;s out there, a drivers license is now good enough if you meet all the other training requierments (At least 20 hours of instruction , previously 40 hour min) for a "Sport Pilot" ticket. And I believe it is just a matter of time before other private pilot licenses follow that path once there is a pattern that the sport pilot guys have no more in flight medical incidents that those with medical certs.And being most street people have zero clue on what SCCA is.

For 2012, SCCA changed the physical requirements from every two years or every year to every three years, every two years, or every year (if you're over 70). Cut the number of physicals in half. Of course I get a physical every year, cause my insurance provides that at zero cost - just don't have to send in the paperwork.

Not a giant change, but still a change towards what people are asking for.

[forestdweller37]

im from the area, Oregon that is. im surprised no one has said that the region also added a Drift run group so now the local drifter have a group to run in. I race with ICSCC in the area and our car counts are about 3-4 times that of SCCA. this should be good for all of us racers in the northwest. NASA and PCA BWCCA none of them hold races in the northwest so we are stuck with SCCA, ICSCC and now chump and lemons. I have an ITA bmw and i can say almost every one of the chump cars in the area are at least as built as my ITA car is. they dont have a min weight so they are all supper light.


Are you seeing much interest in the ITJ class out there?

[Knestis]

Looks like 20% of the cars in the group at the March PIR Regional were ITJ cars.

http://www.oregonscca.com/media-library/documents/roadrace/2012/Results/results12marg6.pdf

And for consideration, the best SCCA Regional results sheet EVAH!

http://www.oregonscca.com/media-library/documents/roadrace/2012/Results/results12marg2.pdf

I'd laugh out loud but it's a pretty sad statement about the health of the club on the west coast.

K

[Flyinglizard]

10 cars in the group? The 2 J cars had a good race it looks like.
Really sad. Time for a big change in direction maybe.

[Knestis]

You can certainly see why they might be willing to try new things, eh?

K

[lateapex911]

10 cars in the group? The 2 J cars had a good race it looks like.
Really sad. Time for a big change in direction maybe.
Wow. Out of 10 cars, 7 got first place trophies! (1 was a DNF)
Ouch. Whats the point?

[Z3_GoCar]

Wow. Out of 10 cars, 7 got first place trophies! (1 was a DNF)
Ouch. Whats the point?

They're out racing?? Not all regions have full fields. I don't know how busy NASA events are in the North West, but in California they easily have 2-3 times the cars in the paddock. Same with 24hrs of Lemons events. I've seen lots of 10 car and under fields, but never a one car field.

[Flyinglizard]

Most of the outsiders @ the SCCA club races say that we have too many classes.
Is that it? Too many classes IT, Prod, STU, STL, GT, SS, Too much cost to run at the front.
Why?
I agree.

Lemons has 3 classes, Slow, Med, Mod. They get many cars.
The Chumps have one class. I want to add a big and a small bore class and leave it like that, But no love for the 2 classes yet.
Idont know the answer.
One class, cheap tires, cheap cars, and cheap gas, all seem to add racers. New and old.
I do know that lack of rule nerds are an asset. I have quit running my cars in IT because I just dont like the little nit picking about the rules. Horns, evap bottles, etc.
I have chosen to play in production( with my IT cars) as a result. Maybe I am not the only one. WE have way more rentals of the Chump seats than the IT or Prod cars.

Maybe consider running the ITJ class as a regional class with DOT 190 tires, 7 in wheels( for all cars), as the wheel size limits the applied power of the big cars.
MM

[Z3_GoCar]

Good point Mike... but how many classes are being run at the NASA events?

AI, PT E, D, C, B, A.. GTS 5, 4,3,2,1... Spec Miata, Spec e-30, Pro-3, Spec 7... E 0, 1, 2, 3... All the BMW Club Racing Classes... All the TT classes... All the HPDE drivers...

Lots of production car based classes, no formula car/sports racer classes, but generally, the mis-mash of classes is the same. I think what really has helped NASA grow so much is the youth appeal... as in it's attracted the fans of the cars that have previously been given short shrift in the bureaucracy that's grown up around the SCCA.

BTW... it's been over a year and a half since anyone posted in the Pacific Region subfolder :(

[ericblois]

There is no NASA in the northwest but there is ICSCC which is only in the northwest, and as car counts go they have a class like Nasa's specE30 and that class normal size is over 20. ITA has been in the upper 20 now in in the upper teens. there is a new class ST which is anything goes with 10:1 power to weight and they are now up to about 10 cars in class. 944 cup has jumped ship from scca to run with ICSCC and SM is strong normally in the upper teens

[Spinnetti]

This is going to be a VERY interesting place to watch the "cheap race cars" experiment in all of its glory.

** ITJ gives people with existing Lemons/Chump cars a place to race

** The "$500 rule" goes POOF without a tzar to enforce it at the races

** Time passes - about 18 months is my guess

** Someone looks at the ITJ rules and does a purpose-built car - without the cultural and enforcement constraints, it's going to be KILLER, DUDE...!

It's like someone did a ctrl+alt+del on IT.

K

Lemons has already done that, and Chump making it worse....
I've run IT/A since 1992, and have been running Lemons for years instead. I get to build what I want, how I want, so long as its within the cost. I'm running a Lexus LS400 without any "bolt on" decorations and its a blast! Meanwhile, my nearly perfectly prepared AE86 sits covered in the garage on new but aging hoosiers due to getting bumped to ITB where I don't want to bolt 220lb to it. Its how IT used to be - and in the good way.

[Spinnetti]

Fixed.

By the way, I have a Lemons MkII Jetta kit. It ran a couple of races then blew up the engine before I snagged it. I've got a complete MkIII 2.0 swap for it.

Problem is, I don't have the time to put it together and drag it to the track. I'd be willing to give it to someone in exchange for the opportunity to be one of those "many guys" for a couple of races.

:)

K

I'd take you up on that... I've built several, and we are doing well in our lexus, but I want to do a veedub, ideally with a TDI as the next engineering challenge. You could drive the Lexus for that matter if you are reasonably fast... We should be in the hunt to win now, so I'm looking to take home the nickles hopefully before too long... email me if you still have it my username at gmail

[Spinnetti]

Some of you clearly don't get it. Think of it if you were a mythical sales guy tring to make the pitch to run SCCA vs. "Crap Can"

Org
SCCA - Permits, Licenses, 2 drivers schools, huge rule book
CC - Small rule book, licence by paying for it

Car
SCCA - Hugly restrictive, build how SCCA wants it, seems to be winning cars and everybody else
CC - Build what you want, how you want

Event
SCCA - mostly sprint races lots of downtime
CC - All enduros, very little downtime

Cost
SCCA - Expensive to run up front
CC - Less expensive to run up front

Quality
SCCA - Some great guys, lots of hyper aggressive dbags
- Plenty of on track contact
CC - Lots of great guys, a few hyper aggressive dbags
- Very little. Strongly disincentivized


Its funny to me that the whole club looks down on IT, and IT looks down on CC. As (for now) an ex-SCCA guy, you guys for the most part just don't get it. Lemons is more fun for less $. simple. I see it as exactly what IT was meant to serve. As for "rolling chicanes", "Dangerous cars" etc... all I can say is "whatever". When I ran ITA, there were plenty of those. In CC, you just know that its up to you to keep it clean. I don't worry about my line, I just make sure I get a clean run by regardless of what the others will do. I've had one contact (wheel mark) in 240hrs or racing. Certainly less than in SCCA where I lost a car and got hit good twice besides. I'm having a blast in Lemons, and will try Chump too. Besides, nowhere in the SCCA can I run what I felt like running - a nice Lexus LS400!

[Spinnetti]

we should be running in our first LeMons event in April.

i give the region credit for getting outside the box. if they can fill up their own race group, that would be great.

one headache will be the licensing. but if we had our LeMons event late in the summer, this would be one way to get some more seat time or shake-down time for your car.


So, how'd you like it Tom? I'm ready to win one of these things... just need better pit work and flag free drivers!

[wepsbee]

So I checked the rules:
1.4: Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers--and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin' bastids--may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In other words, don't spend a lot on a cheater, cause if you do, you ain't gonna own it much longer.
1.6: Your Car May Be Destroyed at Any Time: In addition to accidents and other unfortunate boo-boos, one car may be selected by blind ballot of all teams for immediate removal and total destruction. It could be your car. It probably WILL BE your car. You'll have 30 minutes to yank out any safety items you want to rescue, and then it's toast. Them's the breaks. Don't bring it if you ain't OK with losing it.
So I spend $1500 or more putting in a roll cage and I could lose it all just for fun!!!!

[Knestis]

I'd take you up on that... I've built several, and we are doing well in our lexus, but I want to do a veedub, ideally with a TDI as the next engineering challenge. You could drive the Lexus for that matter if you are reasonably fast... We should be in the hunt to win now, so I'm looking to take home the nickles hopefully before too long... email me if you still have it my username at gmail

I've finally shifted it to some friends down in NJ who are going to help get it together. Given the realization about the lack of secondary insurance, I'm rethinking it a little but the car will at least get done at this point.

K

[JoshS]

They're out racing?? Not all regions have full fields. I don't know how busy NASA events are in the North West, but in California they easily have 2-3 times the cars in the paddock. Same with 24hrs of Lemons events. I've seen lots of 10 car and under fields, but never a one car field.

In San Francisco Region SCCA, things are very different and much much healthier than SoCal and the PNW, it would appear.

Our NASA and SCCA turnouts are about the same (very full). But the big difference is that SCCA has a paddock full of race cars, and NASA has 15% race cars and 85% HPDE cars (I don't know the actual number, it's something like that), and the few race cars that are there get all stuffed onto the track together for super-short sessions so the practice and qually sessions are basically useless.

[tom91ita]

So, how'd you like it Tom? I'm ready to win one of these things... just need better pit work and flag free drivers!

we had a ball!

for three guys, this was their first time W2W. i did not go at all last year and for $550 plus my fuel there, i got out this year.

and we are getting together probably the same group for Autobahn in June.

K, give up your car to folks to prep it. that was Lee's entry fee. he found that old ITC car for $500 and sold some parts off it and that is our car now. others put in some cash and others sweat equity to prep the car.

no cars were claimed or destroyed at Gingerman and from what i hear, that is there mostly as a "scare" factor to keep folks relatively honest.

oh, and 1 of the 3 newbs wants to build a sister 1st gen crx into an ITB car and go scca.

[Spinnetti]

I've finally shifted it to some friends down in NJ who are going to help get it together. Given the realization about the lack of secondary insurance, I'm rethinking it a little but the car will at least get done at this point.

K

K. Thanks for the info... I'm going to keep a lookout for a MKI Scirocco or GTI...


Tom:
Glad you enjoyed it! "Get with it" though and build something more interesting! - leave the CRX/Miata/E30 to the SCCA folks and build something nobody else would dare - that's 1/2 the fun :)
For me, I enjoy building the car and making it do things others didn't think was possible - and I ain't done yet :)

[Flyinglizard]

I am trying to advise Chumpcar with a rules set. The faster cars see no need for any parity. Big surprise. The new guys dont want to rock the boat. The 6cyl, rear drive cars are the class of the group as the Chumpcar rules allow any car without engine size distinctions.
Just using the 205 tire width, will keep the car fairly even. The big V 6 and V 8 cars cant put power down on a 205 tire. The small VW/honda/Miata, can be close at the end of a lap , if all the cars are on a 205 tire . (Based on my data and past experience.)
I would highly recommend that any region that tries this, should consider some tire width rule from the start . The wheels are already bought so some may have 7.5 or 8 in wide wheel s, but if the tires are all small car optimal , more parity will be the result.
The size # is easy to see and regulate.
Better racing will be the result. IMHO

[red986s]

By the way, I am told MidDiv had a lemons class at schools and regionals last year.

They did. A couple "ITC" level and a couple "AS" level cars. No shark fins or stuffed animal heads were seen. Though one of the "AS" level cars, a mustang, looked like it was straight out the movie "Mad Max". It wasn't a big deal and everyone had a great weekend.

I think as long as you keep it at a reasonable level we snobby drivers wouldn't even notice a "crap car" in the mix.

[jimbbski]

1.6: Your Car May Be Destroyed at Any Time: In addition to accidents and other unfortunate boo-boos, one car may be selected by blind ballot of all teams for immediate removal and total destruction. It could be your car. It probably WILL BE your car. You'll have 30 minutes to yank out any safety items you want to rescue, and then it's toast. Them's the breaks. Don't bring it if you ain't OK with losing it.
So I spend $1500 or more putting in a roll cage and I could lose it all just for fun!!!!

I think this rule is put there to keep racers from cheating, not that they would.

I ran my frist Lemons race on April 19 & 20 at Gingerman and even though our car had problems and I had problems with the car I had fun and plan on running another race in Oct. at Autobahn.

While a few cars have been crushedin the past, mostly in the first few years of Lemons, I haven't heard of any being crushed lately. The actions of those teams that caused their cars to be crushed were noted by the other teams and those actions were not repeated by other teams at future races.

You can read up on most of this by going to the Lemons website and reading past forum postings.

[GTIspirit]

So what happens when a guy with a $500 investment (little skin in the game) pulls a total bonehead move and takes out a 60K racecar? Oh well....that's racing???

I think it's a poor idea......sounds purely revenue-centric to me....

The good news is this will pave the way for figure-8 racing, school bus racing, demo derbies, monster trucks, corn dogs and funnel cakes......

R

I keep wanting to go watch the figure-8 school bus racing at the local oval dirt track. I'm sure I could get some corn dogs and funnel cakes there, mmmm. ;)

[tom91ita]

I think this rule is put there to keep racers from cheating, not that they would.

I ran my frist Lemons race on April 19 & 20 at Gingerman and even though our car had problems and I had problems with the car I had fun and plan on running another race in Oct. at Autobahn.

While a few cars have been crushedin the past, mostly in the first few years of Lemons, I haven't heard of any being crushed lately. The actions of those teams that caused their cars to be crushed were noted by the other teams and those actions were not repeated by other teams at future races.

You can read up on most of this by going to the Lemons website and reading past forum postings.

what car were you in?

i was with the "Team Gutty" CRX Lee team. Jabaays had prepped the car.

EDIT: we are planning on the June event at AutoBahn/Joliet, IL



Originally Posted by Doc Bro http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/images/chromium/blue/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?p=334146#post334146)
So what happens when a guy with a $500 investment (little skin in the game) pulls a total bonehead move and takes out a 60K racecar? Oh well....that's racing???

I think it's a poor idea......sounds purely revenue-centric to me....

The good news is this will pave the way for figure-8 racing, school bus racing, demo derbies, monster trucks, corn dogs and funnel cakes......

R


would the $60K driver feel better about being taken out by a $3500 car? bonehead moves are not limited to those that have an inexpensive car. i figured the most valuable part of the cars i have driven was the driver. :eclipsee_steering:

[Spinnetti]

So what happens when a guy with a $500 investment (little skin in the game) pulls a total bonehead move and takes out a 60K racecar? Oh well....that's racing???

I think it's a poor idea......sounds purely revenue-centric to me....

The good news is this will pave the way for figure-8 racing, school bus racing, demo derbies, monster trucks, corn dogs and funnel cakes......

R

Classic.. The "snob effect". Somehow "I'm important and a good driver because I spent a lot of money". I find the reverse to be sometimes true. The rich guys can afford it and bang into people or drive like they own the track. Us folks with more ordinary means want to keep our "junkers" as clean as possible (well, I do anyway).... It does seem to vary by region and doesn't seem to be correlated by income or car cost. I think your premise is is not support by any verifyable facts. Actually, Lemons/Chump cars cost about the same as a mid-pack IT car. Much is safety junk anyway. Yeah, there are some huge speed differentials in Lemons, and yes, some of those folks can't drive to save their lives, but so what? I've seen no data that SCCA is safer and lemons is more fun - All the more fun to pass them! 80 car fields beats the heck out of 3 car fields. I'm not sure if I'm ever coming back despite my fully developed car just sitting in the garage. My "Lemons" racing has been cleaner than a lot of SCCA racing, and I no more want my Lemon dinged than my pristine unscratched IT car that I've been racing since 1992. I think you just don't want your a$$ kicked by my "$500" Lemon (LS400 Lexus) thus invalidating your $=self-image Come play in the "junker" world and you might just get surprised by the level of competition at the pointy end of the field :)

[Robbie]

So I checked the rules:
1.4: Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers--and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin' bastids--may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In other words, don't spend a lot on a cheater, cause if you do, you ain't gonna own it much longer.
1.6: Your Car May Be Destroyed at Any Time: In addition to accidents and other unfortunate boo-boos, one car may be selected by blind ballot of all teams for immediate removal and total destruction. It could be your car. It probably WILL BE your car. You'll have 30 minutes to yank out any safety items you want to rescue, and then it's toast. Them's the breaks. Don't bring it if you ain't OK with losing it.
So I spend $1500 or more putting in a roll cage and I could lose it all just for fun!!!!

This tells me you've never been to a Lemons race. There have only been two cars claimed....ever. One was a Mercedes S600 that was a car that can never be registered, but the claim was never taken up. The other was a Camaro from Pratt and Miller with a race motor in it.

Most super cheated cars just get an insane number of penalty laps added. There hasn't been a car destroyed by the People's Curse in years.

Don't drive like an asshole and your car will survive.

[TStiles]

I am trying to advise Chumpcar with a rules set.
Better racing will be the result. IMHO

I sure hope ChumpCar is open to development of some rules , I suggested to Joey a few years ago that they might want to take a look at NASA PT classing in an attempt to establish what cars can and can't compete and potential class distinctions.

I left the discussion with the impression that they really like the way the system was working ( who wouldn't with the number of entries ) and they were not open to classing or making the rules less ambiguous.

I concluded that without a clearer ruleset , I would park my plans to build a car and just run a few races with buddies ( in their cars ) until it all sorted out. We're doing the 24 @ TWS next month , but that will likely be my last race because the car we have just can't cut it anymore.

I would find the ChumpCar series very appealing with either PT or IT ruleset.

[jimbbski]

what car were you in?

i was with the "Team Gutty" CRX Lee team. Jabaays had prepped the car.

EDIT: we are planning on the June event at AutoBahn/Joliet, IL
:eclipsee_steering:
http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LMIS12/047-LMIS12-UG.html

Our team and car. Looking for a driver for the June race at Autobahn.

[tom91ita]

http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LMIS12/047-LMIS12-UG.html

Our team and car. Looking for a driver for the June race at Autobahn.

i loved that car! your theme was great as well.

we'll have to look you guys up. or stop by the Team Gutty (orange CRX # 75) trailer.

and for those that think a $500 car means that is all you spend, if you take a $500 EF civic and put in a full cage with thicker tubing than SCCA and brakes are "free" and not part of the budget, tires are not part of the budget but cannot be R compounds, wheels are not part of the budget, fuel cell is "free" and not part of the budget.

you could easily spend the $3500 to buy/prep a car or buy a used civic ITC / ITB car.

the LeMons have something similar to PT in that if they think you are BSing the costs (i.e., added go fast goodies), they assess you BS Laps. so three cars can be in the same class but get different handicaps.

for me, this is about going to the county fair/carnival. i go to have a good time not because i have to win a prize. but then, we are already plotting adding a larger cell to allow for longer runs.....

[jimbbski]

I won't be at the June race, that's why the line about looking for drivers for that race. Another driver and I have other plans.

I do plan on racing at the Oct. Autobahn race. I don't think our team will enter any other Lemons races other then those two.

[forestdweller37]

I sure hope ChumpCar is open to development of some rules , I suggested to Joey a few years ago that they might want to take a look at NASA PT classing in an attempt to establish what cars can and can't compete and potential class distinctions.

I left the discussion with the impression that they really like the way the system was working ( who wouldn't with the number of entries ) and they were not open to classing or making the rules less ambiguous.

I concluded that without a clearer ruleset , I would park my plans to build a car and just run a few races with buddies ( in their cars ) until it all sorted out. We're doing the 24 @ TWS next month , but that will likely be my last race because the car we have just can't cut it anymore.

I would find the ChumpCar series very appealing with either PT or IT ruleset.

Is this thread still going?!?

But I agree with mogren and Tstiles about Chumpcar needing some clearer prep and classing rules. It's getting frustrating trying to hang with an equal or better driver in an E36 BMW 325 when all I have to work with is a 1.6 liter Miata.

Mogren, why limit tire width instead of an over/under displacement rule like Super Touring? It seams like that would just make driving the heavy/powerful cars less enjoyable.

[Knestis]

I sure hope ChumpCar is open to development of some rules , I suggested to Joey a few years ago that they might want to take a look at NASA PT classing in an attempt to establish what cars can and can't compete and potential class distinctions.

I left the discussion with the impression that they really like the way the system was working ( who wouldn't with the number of entries ) and they were not open to classing or making the rules less ambiguous.

I concluded that without a clearer ruleset , I would park my plans to build a car and just run a few races with buddies ( in their cars ) until it all sorted out. We're doing the 24 @ TWS next month , but that will likely be my last race because the car we have just can't cut it anymore.

I would find the ChumpCar series very appealing with either PT or IT ruleset.

But Chump with IT rules would be IT, wouldn't it?

And with the cost containment and penalty laps schemes in place, how is it possible that a car "just can't cut it anymore?"

K

[TStiles]

And with the cost containment and penalty laps schemes in place, how is it possible that a car "just can't cut it anymore?"

K

Easy , Our car owner/builder loves the old Celica. So he built and continues to develop a 1975 Celica. Last spring we ran a perfect race in one of the 7 hr races. Finished 4th , but our best lap time is about 6 seconds a lap off the leaders best laps.

Not sure I agree with the cost containment assumption. Our owner has spent a ton on the Celica , but it's still a rolling turd.

Without clear rules , guys continue to push the envelop and render the older cars non competitive. How about a 2nd Gen RX7 with a SHO motor that gets no penalty laps ? How about an absolute bone stock 1.6 miata with no laps ? No way a true crap can can be competitive.

I'm OK with it , ( I just join the team as a diversion / fun weekend ) just think Chump could retain more competitors by better definition of the rules and adding a few classes.

[Flyinglizard]

The cost containment is out. There is very little real cost containment. The AIV rule has made it into a craiglist/desk jockey race . each team has a AIV guy thatcall day cruises for adds and make up their own ads. total BS.
It should go back to actual cost,IMHO. Or a few hard rules to keep the cost/ return in check. The front running cars are as well prepped as any front running IT car or prod car. Not as pretty , but evry thing in the car has been looked at for weight, speed, and durability .

As for the 205 tire size recommendation; The big, heavy, fast, cars will slow down and be less inviting. The lighter cars will have a better PSI loading and have a better chance.
I am working on my power per pound , as we go on. The car is getting lighter and cleaner , the engine is sneaking up on power. It has a better engine than My Hp car, and is 200# lighter. I use a taller gear box to reduce the 5th gear time. The little 5 th gearis small and breaks, 3/4 works well but might give away some lap times.The drivers shift better 3-4 than 3,4,5. also. Daytona and Road Atlanta will need 5th gear, Sebring does not.
I am filling in the front end grille area, lowering the hood angle, cutting the windshield, removing the tail lights, flairing the interior panels. etc. Taping the seams.

You still need 4 drivers that can drive it fast and gently.

[Greg Amy]

Ever taste "Hakarl"? Smells pretty bad, but some people really like the taste...

[Spinnetti]

http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LMIS12/047-LMIS12-UG.html

Our team and car. Looking for a driver for the June race at Autobahn.


Very nicely prepared... you know your bodywork... too nice for lemons, but plenty wierd enough!

[lateapex911]

Easy , Our car owner/builder loves the old Celica. So he built and continues to develop a 1975 Celica. Last spring we ran a perfect race in one of the 7 hr races. Finished 4th , but our best lap time is about 6 seconds a lap off the leaders best laps.

Not sure I agree with the cost containment assumption. Our owner has spent a ton on the Celica , but it's still a rolling turd.

Without clear rules , guys continue to push the envelop and render the older cars non competitive. How about a 2nd Gen RX7 with a SHO motor that gets no penalty laps ? How about an absolute bone stock 1.6 miata with no laps ? No way a true crap can can be competitive.

I'm OK with it , ( I just join the team as a diversion / fun weekend ) just think Chump could retain more competitors by better definition of the rules and adding a few classes.

Kirks point is that in the real world, after time, popularity adds cost. Want to run around and don't care about winning? Thats easy, and cheap. Want to win? No problem, as long as nobody else does either. BUT, once a crafty, and well funded competitor decides the prize is worth spending ....it's all up to the bank account.

Look at the post from Micheal...he's building the engine for more power, hes doing a LOT of work on the car...changing the hood angle, shortening the windshield...changing transmissions. Yea, he might be doing that work himself, ('containing cost') but ther's nothing stopping others from paying for that.....and saying they did it themselves.


As far as the 'flexible rules", (penalty laps, etc) thats another term for 'favoritism'.
Ever heard the term, "Jumped the shark"?

[tom91ita]

Ever taste "Hakarl"? Smells pretty bad, but some people really like the taste...

i love the analogy. especially since there were a couple of shark fin themed cars there as well as a Beatles yellow submarine crx.

[Flyinglizard]

A Chumpcar got a logbook here in FL @ daytona registered in ITO. Ran some 2:32 laps.
Funny, when I take my old Chumper out in any CFR events the tech guy says it will nevvver get a log book. maybe we need a new tech guy? or SCCA has to step back and see how to treat todays racers.
Remember that many of these drivers/car builders have been down that 12000$ IT car thing and 40,000$ prod class and have gotten smarter( or reprioritized) over the years.

[jumbojimbo]

A Chumpcar got a logbook here in FL @ daytona registered in ITO. Ran some 2:32 laps.
Funny, when I take my old Chumper out in any CFR events the tech guy says it will nevvver get a log book. maybe we need a new tech guy? or SCCA has to step back and see how to treat todays racers.
Remember that many of these drivers/car builders have been down that 12000$ IT car thing and 40,000$ prod class and have gotten smarter( or reprioritized) over the years.

I assume tech is saying your car will not pass SCCA tech because it doesn't meet the rules?. Tech inspectors have a reponsiblity to ensure the cars are safe and meet the rules. This is a dangerous sport and people can get hurt, even die. It's not fair to ask a tech inspector pass a car that's not safe and be responsible for someone getting hurt.

If you are saying you want to present your Chumpcar as is, without making an effort to meet the actual rules, then yes, it won't pass tech and it shouldn't pass tech. But if you are presenting a car that meets the rules and happens to also be a chumpcar then it damn well better pass tech.

In my experience SCCA as a whole is filled with fair, friendly people who are out to have a good time and put on safe and fair races. Sure, there is the occasioinal jerk, but I've never been a part of any organization that doesn't have an odd personality or two. That's the way the world is and I don't believe that lemons and chump are magical exceptions to the ahole rule.

[Flyinglizard]

My Chumper has a lot more cage and cage mounting points,than IT rules. It passes SCCA safety rules, easily.
It will not pass the clean/neat/ uncrashed rule. it is neat and clean but has run about 70 ovaltrack races and gathered some "love" along the way. The crush areas are fine.

The roof has been cut off. It has louvres in the hood ,The tail lights are cage mounted. The battery is floor mounted /covered. It has the air dam/splitter/ nose . it weighs about 1780 plus driver.
CFR tech ,has been not fun. I avoid them when I can.
WE also run the HP VW Rocco, SM, ITB cars. Tech stays consistant and a PITA.
"Rick" has been pretty nice most of the time, allowing the Chumper for schools maybe 2 times.
MM

[Flyinglizard]

When I get through the 14hrs of Daytona( 3 cars, 8 drivers for us, 85cars entered) with Chumpcar, I will look at starting the class here in CFR.
As I say, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I will try to be part of the solution.
I do want to keep all of the cars on the 205 tires for a soft parity control.
MM