Adjustable Spring Seats/Perches

[manny]

i gotta be honest guys, i did'nt know that we were allowed to use the adjustable spring seats. :shrug:

ADMIN ADDITION, COMMENT REGARDING THIS PICTURE FROM THIS THREAD:

http://www.gt40s.com/images/Mustang/armperch.jpg

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?p=333458#post333458

[Ron Earp]

i gotta be honest guys, i did'nt know that we were allowed to use the adjustable spring seats. :shrug:

Got to read the rules. :shrug:


5.3.b.
Spacers, including threaded units with adjustable spring
seats, may be used with coil springs.

[Gary L]

Got to read the rules. :shrug:

5.3.b.
Spacers, including threaded units with adjustable spring
seats, may be used with coil springs.

And BTW, those exact words have been in the ITCS for at least the last 10 years... it's not a new rule.

[Knestis]

Got to read the rules. :shrug:

5.3.b.
Spacers, including threaded units with adjustable spring
seats, may be used with coil springs.

That doesn't strike me as being a stretch at all, particularly having seen the pics.

K

[Ron Earp]

That doesn't strike me as being a stretch at all, particularly having seen the pics.

K

If it says you can then you bloody well can.

We did ours a bit differently from the AS guys. Seems that most AS guys' cars we looked at had the threaded portion in the K-member which make it difficult to adjust and takes up precious room inboard. However, it keeps the weight off the arm. Our are on the arm, and sure, the adjuster/perch does add some weight where you don't want it but as a percentage of what is already there, it isn't much.

The upside is that it is really simple to adjust weights/height of the car since the bolt can be turned with a 3/4" socket at ride height. The screw has a spring/ball detent stop too that should hold position. Sure, again it is a bit of weight, about 2.2 lbs per corner but I think it is worth it. We could use 1"-8 aluminum threaded rods instead but I'm not convinced they will hold up in the long run. Definitely lighter though.

Plasma cutting up all the roundy round bits, adjusting for the correct angle, and welding all the parts together does take some time.

[lateapex911]

I THINK the spacer/adjustable rule is under the spring section isn't it? So, is it legal to actually weld or attach them to the control arm? Or must tehy be left free and part of the spring? (I'm not sure which way you did this Ron, I'm just curious as to the rule)

On my car, the strut had the adjustment on the front, and in the rear, the spacer/adjusters were free, captured by the spring.

[Ron Earp]

I THINK the spacer/adjustable rule is under the spring section isn't it? So, is it legal to actually weld or attach them to the control arm? Or must tehy be left free and part of the spring? (I'm not sure which way you did this Ron, I'm just curious as to the rule)


Gentlemen, let's not beat around the bush here - if you want to say they're illegal then say so, not ask rhetorical questions to bring the issue up repeatedly.

The pictures are pretty clear, there are welded plates in the arm that support the threaded rod. The spacer/perch sits on the rod. The rod goes up and down and raises the spacer/perch. The same setup has been applied to numerous ITB cars over the years although that doesn't verify legality.

Again, the rule states:

5.b.3. in entirety:


Springs of any origin may be used, provided they are of
the same number and type as originally fitted, i.e., coil,
leaf, torsion bar, and that they shall be installed in the original
location using the original system of attachment. The
joining of two or more coil springs by any means is prohibited.
The use of tender springs are permitted. Shackles
or spacers may be used to adjust leaf spring ride height.
Spacers, including threaded units with adjustable spring
seats, may be used with coil springs. Coil over threaded
body shock/struts are permitted.

Spacers, spring spacers, threaded unit with spring seat, spring seat, are all undefined in the glossary.

I think the solution is 100% legal. I have threaded units with adjustable spring seats. The ITCS nor the GCR explain how they may be attached. Really, they could just sit in the pockets that already exist in the arms, but welding them into those pockets is a much better design for long-term use.

If you think it illegal I'd like to understand your reasoning. I will also split this thread off from the build thread as it is more about rules and interpretation than building an ITS Mustang.

[Rabbit07]

You can get really slick with a Mustang and go to a 2.5" front spring from a 5" and save weight. Just saying....:p

[JeffYoung]

One point that Andy has always made that I fully agree with is that if the rule says you can do something, that means you can do whatever is necessary to, well, "do that something."

If you need to weld the adjustable spring perch seat to the arm, I'm convinced you can do it.

Analog. Rules say you can duct brakes. Doesn't say anything about running hose, or adding hose....clearly you can.

Given how that rule is worded, there would need to be an expression prohibition (like the old threaded body shock rule) preventing welding the perch to the arm.

[seckerich]

And it does not perform an illegal function which makes it pass the smell test. If you relocated some items to facilitate the install it would be different.

[JeffYoung]

Nothing was moved or changed. Springs in their original location.

[Ron Earp]

Nope, nothing changed or modified (except the parts we bought to put in the arms) and the function of everything remains as it was.

The part you buy is this one or similar:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/WEIGHT-JACK-WELD-IN-PLATE,6509.html

http://static.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/91645532_R.jpg

But they are too large to sit up in the arm in any fashion. So you cut the plate to fit and then you've got a sturdy nut to thread the rod into.

Lots of parts to choose from here and many other places:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Race-Spring-Mount-Perch-Spacer.html?first_answer=17

[ShelbyRacer]

And it does not perform an illegal function which makes it pass the smell test. If you relocated some items to facilitate the install it would be different.

Absolutely my thoughts.

Now, if you put a stepper motor on that threaded rod for cockpit adjustability... :023:

Would that be specifically outlawed via 9.1.3.D.5.c.1?


Any anti‑roll bar(s), traction bar(s), panhard rod or watts
linkage may be added, removed, or substituted, provided
its/their installation serves no other purpose. The mounts
for these devices may be welded or bolted to the structure
of the vehicle. No suspension control mount or component
shall be located in the trunk or driver/passenger compartment
unless installed by the manufacturer as original equipment.
Traction bars used to control axle rotation shall be
one piece solid bar or tube. Heim rod ends may be fitted.

[lateapex911]

Ron, you know what you did, and it's probably obvious to you in the picture. I couldn't really tell. My background when I added these to my car is that the guy who suggested it was a higherup in SCCA and said, "leave them loose and you're clearly legal". I figured he was right, and gave it no critical thought.
But you make a good argument and I'm inclined to agree. As the Roffe Corollary says, "If it says you can, you bloody well can"

[Flyinglizard]

All of the strut front ends are allowed to let the spring hit any top bucket and move the lower welded perch.
The result is the same as the pic but the parts are not.
No speed or tuning advantage , just a slight time advanatge over the loose screw, inside the stock lower bucket.
"Springs must fit in original location in the stock fashion" is clearly not the rule. The rule is written conflicting ,IMHo.

I always sat the screw inside the stock bucket.
But reading the rules I dont see how it should be illegal to weld the perch/screw/nut,inside the top of the bucket.
It would clearly be legal ,if the top of the bucket was stock with just the nut welded to it. IMHO, MM

[JeffYoung]

I don't understand this post. No, you can't move the spring location.


All of the strut front ends are allowed to let the spring hit any top bucket and move the lower welded perch.
The result is the same as the pic but the parts are not.
No speed or tuning advantage , just a slight time advanatge over the loose screw, inside the stock lower bucket.
"Springs must fit in original location in the stock fashion" is clearly not the rule. The rule is written conflicting ,IMHo.

I always sat the screw inside the stock bucket.
But reading the rules I dont see how it should be illegal to weld the perch/screw/nut,inside the top of the bucket.
It would clearly be legal ,if the top of the bucket was stock with just the nut welded to it. IMHO, MM

[Ron Earp]

Me either. There might be some good information there, but I can't makes heads or tails of what was written.

If he's saying it is illegal I disagree. The spring section from the GCR reads:



5.b. Springs and Shock Absorbers
1. Shock absorbers may be replaced provided that the
replacements (a) attach to the original mounting points,
and (b) are of a non-remote-reservoir design. The number
and type (e.g., tube, lever, etc.) of shock absorbers
shall be the same as stock. The interchange of gas and
hydraulic shock absorbers is permitted. External adjustments
of shock control shall be limited to two (2). No
shock absorber may be capable of adjustment while the
car is in motion.

2. MacPherson strut equipped cars may substitute struts,
and /or may use alternate inserts. Spring seat ride height
location may be altered from stock. Remote reservoir
struts and/or inserts are prohibited. External adjustments
of shock control shall be limited to two (2).

3. Springs of any origin may be used, provided they are of
the same number and type as originally fitted, i.e., coil,
leaf, torsion bar, and that they shall be installed in the original
location using the original system of attachment. The
joining of two or more coil springs by any means is prohibited.
The use of tender springs are permitted. Shackles
or spacers may be used to adjust leaf spring ride height.
Spacers, including threaded units with adjustable spring
seats, may be used with coil springs. Coil over threaded
body shock/struts are permitted.

4. Spacers or lowering blocks may be used between leaf
springs and the point(s) of attachment to the axle housing.

If he's saying that you can't change the spring ride height and that makes it illegal then I disagree with that point. According to the Ford manual, the Mustang has a "modified MacPherson strut" front suspension. Due to this, 5.b.2 states "Spring seat ride height location may be altered from stock", meaning you can raise or lower the spring seat.

Furthermore, the overall enabling statement is 5.b.3:


Spacers, including threaded units with adjustable spring
seats, may be used with coil springs.

If it says you can, then you can. This statement has no limitation or guidelines on how to carry it out. Just as was pointed out earlier that the allowance for brakes ducts just say you can use them, it doesn't indicate if they need to be welded, riveted, glued, bolted, screwed, or attached to the car with bubble gum, or, if they should be made from steel, aluminum, fiberglass, or whatever else you can dig up.

[manny]

guys guys guys, i never had any intention to start this type of discussion PLEASE. i think the build of the SN95 mustang is a great idea. BTW the current build of these 2 cars is just totally awesome! first rate job of building :023: when i do build another mustang of those years i will look at all of the work you have done and use as a reference. its just a great job on how a car is built. Thank you very much for showing this old dog a very nice way on building my next mustang :023:

[Flyinglizard]

I was just saying that the rules are conflicting.
The spring seats can be moved on the struts.
The spacers are allowed and the welded nuts are part of the spacers..
All legal as the rule is written,( but not the original mounting system.) That line conflicts with the prior lines.
Maybe it should read the" new springs must be concentric with the stock location, mounting points and systems are free. "
MM, (ADD)