ST Impact on IT...?

[Knestis]

So as ST gets off the ground for the 2012 season, do we think that it's taking entries from IT...? There's obviously a couple of ex-IT people involved but is its presence hurting IT entries? What do we think?

K

[TStiles]

I've been wondering the same thing.

All of our ( Feb - Sept ) races are rationals or double nationals so I'm planning to run my ITA compliant car in STL. I'm not going to do anything that will make my ITA car non compliant in ITA until this thing settles out.

The bad news is that our 1st race is next weekend and I'm the only entrant in STL and there are no ITA entrants. Last year we had 9-10 ITA entrants.

What is goofy is that 2 of the 5 STU entrants are miatas that are eligible for STL

Sure would be easier ( and cheaper ) to eliminate regional and national so I don't have to build a motor for STL.

[Z3_GoCar]

So as ST gets off the ground for the 2012 season, do we think that it's taking entries from IT...? There's obviously a couple of ex-IT people involved but is its presence hurting IT entries? What do we think?

K

Maybe/maybe not, it's hard to tell. ITR is just about doa no matter what, (a wreck, a blown motor, and a motor swap.) At our first DR/N we had 11 (Sat) and 10 (Sun) ITA cars, two STL cars that could be ITA cars and one Pro-7. For our Rational next weekend, we've got 5 ITA (a couple are DD-SM's), 1 ITS car vs. 1 radial sedan and 1 Pro-7, the STL cars are in a different run group...

Contrast last years numbers... for the January DR/N we had 4 (Sat), and 1 (Sun) ITA, and 1 ITC car, and the February race 5 ITA cars and 1 ITC

[Chip42]

ST takes IT cars - some people just prefer the ST ruleset. I know of 4 or 5 guys locally that moved to ST. But I think the flow of real transition cars will be a steady trickle, not a real worry.

that said, I've seen a ton of double dipping but I don't think our IT numbers are off, certainly not by a lot. Most of those I see are are ITA and S cars. I do see a good amount of "IT" cars at nationals, and I put that in quotes because I'm not sure if they all run in full IT trim. it has to affect the IT race budgets to be running nationals, so I anticipate some drop in attendance from that, but I'm not worried about it.

[Darryl Pritchett]

Well at the Sebring race last week we had 25 ITA entraints and only 3 STL which were all double dippers. As for the rule set of STL its written for the Honda crowd primarly and the Miata crowd. There is no way I should have to add 85lbs to my ITA Neon if I were to move it to STL. I know I can run as a ITA car in STL but to actually be competitive in STL you would have to build it to STL specs and to have to add 85LBS is absurd, especially with the weights the Integra's and Miata's can run at. Someone needs to wake up and realize the ones who are writing the rules this year for STL are setting it up for them to win a National Championship because the cars they drive have all the rules in their favor.

[lateapex911]

Well at the Sebring race last week we had 25 ITA entraints and only 3 STL which were all double dippers. As for the rule set of STL its written for the Honda crowd primarly and the Miata crowd. There is no way I should have to add 85lbs to my ITA Neon if I were to move it to STL. I know I can run as a ITA car in STL but to actually be competitive in STL you would have to build it to STL specs and to have to add 85LBS is absurd, especially with the weights the Integra's and Miata's can run at. Someone needs to wake up and realize the ones who are writing the rules this year for STL are setting it up for them to win a National Championship because the cars they drive have all the rules in their favor.

Well, how about you take an ITR Honda S2000 and run it in STL. You get wheels wider by 1.5", AND you get to race a chassis that is forbidden if you run it in STL guise. IIRC the engine is near the max allowed by STL mods anyway.

Yea, there are some logic inequities, but that's partly because the ruleset is based on theoretical maximums and ignores stock componentry that limits things to less than theoretical maximums.

On edit, I just saw your last sentence. Now those that know me know I've been critical of members of my own committee (the ITAC, when i was a member) and the CRB, but I never accused them of writing rules to promote their own racing effort. Thats thin ice you're on.
As a matter of fact, I know a STAC member, and while we might differ on the STL basic philosophy, I'm pretty darn sure he's not writing rules for his own car. Especially when he just spent lots of time and money getting his car to lose weight, and now, due to a rule change, he will have to bolt 80 pounds right back in.

[StephenB]

I don't Think it will have any noticable impact at all. I would be shocked if it ever became bigger than ITE. It may dwindle numbers in that class though...

As 1 or 2 people get serious about the class the cost will become huge. coupled with small fields I just don't see it taking off.

Stephen

My opinion B-spec has a better chance to take away entries and I don't see that happening either!

[StephenB]

trying to edit but it wont let me...

Just wanted to add that I think it attracts a different group of people that would have probably run ITE or similar class. Not that it is a bad class just not at all like IT with a constantly changing target for rules and lots of $$ mods that require more mechanical knowledge IMHO.

Stephen

[Knestis]

... Someone needs to wake up and realize the ones who are writing the rules this year for STL are setting it up for them to win a National Championship because the cars they drive have all the rules in their favor.

If you honestly think that's the case, you need to make a formal complaint with the national office and your area director.

Or shut the hell up and post an apology here.

K

[JS154]

Someone needs to wake up and realize the ones who are writing the rules this year for STL are setting it up for them to win a National Championship because the cars they drive have all the rules in their favor.

Right, because my 2.3L BMW fits perfectly in STL.

I suggest you think before you type, because clearly here you did not.

If you have something of value to add, I suggest you send in a resume to the CRB and request to join the STAC. If you don;t you can hang out on the forums and make stuff up about people you obviously don't know.

[JS154]

ST takes IT cars - some people just prefer the ST ruleset. I know of 4 or 5 guys locally that moved to ST. But I think the flow of real transition cars will be a steady trickle, not a real worry.

that said, I've seen a ton of double dipping but I don't think our IT numbers are off, certainly not by a lot. Most of those I see are are ITA and S cars. I do see a good amount of "IT" cars at nationals, and I put that in quotes because I'm not sure if they all run in full IT trim. it has to affect the IT race budgets to be running nationals, so I anticipate some drop in attendance from that, but I'm not worried about it.

I think once STL has it's own race at the Runoffs you may see more cars being built. I also think one thing many people don't realize, is that STL is Super Touring Lite...But it is still Super Touring, not Super Improved Touring.

[Z3_GoCar]

Right, because my 2.3L BMW fits perfectly in STL.

I suggest you think before you type, because clearly here you did not.

If you have something of value to add, I suggest you send in a resume to the CRB and request to join the STAC. If you don;t you can hang out on the forums and make stuff up about people you obviously don't know.

I hope you realize that those who run domestic made equiptment won't be helped by including select eur/asian market motors.

Daryle, I suggest that if you can't beat them then you might be able to join them. MBSA (South Africa) makes Honda products under license, and you drive a product of Daimler/Chrysler... so it might be argued that you can install the class beating Acura powertrain in your Neon?? :shrug:

[ulfelder]

The primary impact on me is that Andy Bettencourt keeps bugging me to let him drive my ITR S2000 in an STL race. :o

And he will! June 8-9 at Lime Rock.

[Darryl Pritchett]

Okay I will apologize for the statement made of making the rules in their favor, however this is a forum of opinions but I could have or should have worded it differently.

With that said name one car that will compete with the Intergra and its WHP or the Miata. Then we will just wait and see what kind of car dominates this class.

[JS154]

I hope you realize that those who run domestic made equiptment won't be helped by including select eur/asian market motors.

Daryle, I suggest that if you can't beat them then you might be able to join them. MBSA (South Africa) makes Honda products under license, and you drive a product of Daimler/Chrysler... so it might be argued that you can install the class beating Acura powertrain in your Neon?? :shrug:

Ford Zetec? or Sigma? 1.7L VCT at 153 base hp would help.

[jumbojimbo]

I think once STL has it's own race at the Runoffs you may see more cars being built. I also think one thing many people don't realize, is that STL is Super Touring Lite...But it is still Super Touring, not Super Improved Touring.

If this is true then it points out a problem with the way we develop new classes. We should be creating classes that are so interesting and so compelling that people join the class because they want to. And then the organic growth of the class will lead to a runoffs race. Not the other way around.

B-Spec is another example of this, we're so excited about the pro races we forget to build the class from the bottom up.

If STL grows it could be good for IT. It would not be a bad thing to get the drivers who want to tinker and push the envelope of the IT philosophy into a class where that kind of development is part of the class design. One of the things that hurts a mature class like IT is the perception (right or wrong) that you need an engineering degree to complete. Trimming the pointy end of the field might lead to higher overall participation.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Okay I will apologize for the statement made of making the rules in their favor, however this is a forum of opinions but I could have or should have worded it differently.

With that said name one car that will compete with the Intergra and its WHP or the Miata. Then we will just wait and see what kind of car dominates this class.

Darryl,

Help me understand your point. Yes, you have to add weight but think of the extra power you can make when you add compression, cams, etc to the Neon motor. Then in theory, you have more power to compensate for the extra weight.

[JeffYoung]

Obviously Darryl can chime in, but I believe his point is relative. He has to add weight to the car moving from A to STL and doesn't think the added power bump compensates for it.

I may be wrong but I think with the displacement formula the Integras lose weight going from IT to STL and get the power increase.

Then, layer Jake's very perceptive point on top of this: STL is all about theoretical power whether your car can make it or not.

In short, I think what Darryl is saying is that the 2.0 liter displacement advantage is really a penalty and motors that can't achieve their specific output potential even within the STL ruleset lose out.


Darryl,

Help me understand your point. Yes, you have to add weight but think of the extra power you can make when you add compression, cams, etc to the Neon motor. Then in theory, you have more power to compensate for the extra weight.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I guess I didn't read that kind of thought into his post. What *I* think he is saying is that the rules state that if he wants to run his IT car in STL, he has to gain weight. No mention of additional prep etc.

Maybe I am wrong, hence the clarification question. Any estimates on what an STL 2.0L will produce?

We are all in agreement that the Honda's are well positioned to dominate the class and the more I hear the more I 100% believe it was originally conceived as a Honda/FWD swap class. Barriers are being put up and clarifications are being made to protect that original philosophy. No problems, just crazy limiting as we have beaten to death before. 'They' want a FWD Honda swap class, so be it. It won't survive. ESPECIALLY when someone like Drago builds a Miata that, on paper, isn't a match for a well built and well driven HondAcura and his prep and driving make everyone look foolish. It will create ridiculous FUD, weight and limits will ensue and the class will die...

Just my prediction.


Obviously Darryl can chime in, but I believe his point is relative. He has to add weight to the car moving from A to STL and doesn't think the added power bump compensates for it.

I may be wrong but I think with the displacement formula the Integras lose weight going from IT to STL and get the power increase.

Then, layer Jake's very perceptive point on top of this: STL is all about theoretical power whether your car can make it or not.

In short, I think what Darryl is saying is that the 2.0 liter displacement advantage is really a penalty and motors that can't achieve their specific output potential even within the STL ruleset lose out.

[Rabbit07]

I have decided recently that the guys on the STAC have all lost their minds. My new goal is to build the 99 Miata I have into an ITS car and run it in ITS and STL. That way it just costs me less money in Lead, Camshafts, Pistons, and tuning.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!:blink:

[lateapex911]

OK, Chris. Lets look at the math:
ITS Miata will make 163 at the wheels. The math puts that at 2430. Add the RWD factor and you're at 2490. Well, really you'll be at 2550 once the new RWD factor goes into effect. (assuming it's 5%, not the 7% I read about here. I like 5, easy math. ;) , plus it's a pretty reasonable value all things considered. I think 2.55 is low.)
So, the Presumed and obvious main frontrunner is the Teg at 2430.
2430/190 = 12.78
2550/163 = 15.64

So, I'm not sure I'd spend money doing that, myself.
Now, Jim Drago thinks he can get a 99 motor to 190.* If so, that means
2550/190 = 13.42
THAT is worth a shot, and would be a good race.
Dunno about his number though, but I give him the nod when it comes to Miata motors.
*From a RR/AX thread.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Now, Jim Drago thinks he can get a 99 motor to 190.*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA! Drago - if you are reading this, you are nuts. :)

[lateapex911]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA! Drago - if you are reading this, you are nuts. :)

And I quote:


That is the 64,000 question! ( That may be literal )http://www.roadraceautox.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I have an 02 Miata that will likely become my STL Miata with a 99 engine... Everytime I turn around.. it is more $$ and then more $$$ and oh yeah, then more $$$.

I think 185-190 Dynojet SAE is possible(probable) in STL MIATA, whether that will be enough is the question? Especially at +150 lbs over the Integras, we need to get the CRB to fix this ASAP! http://www.roadraceautox.com/images/smilies/popcorn.gif ( full disclosure: I havent started my car and building it knowing full well the rules and possible issues before hand)

[JeffYoung]

Is he talking wheels or crank though? I guess by referring to Dynojet it must be wheels.


And I quote:

[lateapex911]

Gotta be wheel! Unless he's backing out the power to crank but that would be illogical.

If it were crank, that would back down to about 158-160 wheel, and that ITS motor territory. Given the allowances I'd think more is reasonable to expect.

[Rabbit07]

OK, Chris. Lets look at the math:
ITS Miata will make 163 at the wheels. The math puts that at 2430. Add the RWD factor and you're at 2490. Well, really you'll be at 2550 once the new RWD factor goes into effect. (assuming it's 5%, not the 7% I read about here. I like 5, easy math. ;) , plus it's a pretty reasonable value all things considered. I think 2.55 is low.)
So, the Presumed and obvious main frontrunner is the Teg at 2430.
2430/190 = 12.78
2550/163 = 15.64

So, I'm not sure I'd spend money doing that, myself.
Now, Jim Drago thinks he can get a 99 motor to 190.* If so, that means
2550/190 = 13.42
THAT is worth a shot, and would be a good race.
Dunno about his number though, but I give him the nod when it comes to Miata motors.
*From a RR/AX thread.

Wrong, I get to run it at the ITS weight. 2375?

[bamfp]

OK, Chris. Lets look at the math:
ITS Miata will make 163 at the wheels. The math puts that at 2430. Add the RWD factor and you're at 2490. Well, really you'll be at 2550 once the new RWD factor goes into effect. (assuming it's 5%, not the 7% I read about here. I like 5, easy math. ;) , plus it's a pretty reasonable value all things considered. I think 2.55 is low.)
So, the Presumed and obvious main frontrunner is the Teg at 2430.
2430/190 = 12.78
2550/163 = 15.64

So, I'm not sure I'd spend money doing that, myself.
Now, Jim Drago thinks he can get a 99 motor to 190.* If so, that means
2550/190 = 13.42
THAT is worth a shot, and would be a good race.
Dunno about his number though, but I give him the nod when it comes to Miata motors.
*From a RR/AX thread.

So run the math with a Civic with a 1.6L making 175 and 1.7L making 180 and what do you get?

[Andy Bettencourt]

So run the math with a Civic with a 1.6L making 175 and 1.7L making 180 and what do you get?

A CRX with 175whp at 2160 would be THE combo if it could happen. Even if you pie-in-the-skied 190whp from a Mee-otter, at the current 2490lb weight (soon to be at least 2550? Maybe more) - its a non-starter. 1.6 is the hands down choice.

STL CRX Si: 2160/175=12.34
STL Integra 1.8: 2430/195*=12.46
STL HondAcura 1.7: 2295/180=12.75
STL Miata 1.8: 2490/190**=13.11
STL Miata 1.8: 2550/190**=13.4
ITR S2000: 3005/220***=13.65
Grand Am MX-5: 2835****/205=13.83


* Assuming 10whp above IT build
** Assuming 30whp above IT build (really?)
***Assuming 10whp above our current car
****Assuming eventual change to 5% adder for RWD

Even if you took the best P/W in ITR and ran it: E36 325 (2785/220whp=12.65) it still won't touch the top tier choices (note - it's not eligible, just an illustration). IT cars running in STL won't have a chance when the class gets some real cars...and that is TOTALLY fine. It's just a place to run as a double-dipper. You wouldn't want any IT cars with better numbers.

[jdrago1]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA! Drago - if you are reading this, you are nuts. :)

I knew I was nuts before reading this.. 183 :(, but it sure does sound good :)

Hopefully 190 by 2013 Runoffs
Jim

[Greg Amy]

I knew I was nuts before reading this.. 183 :(, but it sure does sound good :)
;) I predicted 185 for the Mee-otters in STL trim, looks like I missed that, too...

GA, who's still LOL'ing at all the wankers whining about how STL was going to be a "FWD Honduh class..." :happy204:


Someone needs to wake up and realize the ones who are writing the rules this year for STL are setting it up for them to win a National Championship because the cars they drive have all the rules in their favor.

[Andy Bettencourt]

;) I predicted 185 for the Mee-otters in STL trim, looks like I missed that, too...

GA, who's still LOL'ing at all the wankers whining about how STL was going to be a "FWD Honduh class..." :happy204:

Guess you missed that power to weight estimate on the 1.6? All the Honduh's are still a pound per HP better. We'll wait until we see a fast one. Imagine Joe with 50 more WHP. Sweet Geezus.

[Rabbit07]

Lol.......

Bring it:dead_horse:

[Andy Bettencourt]

It will certainly be an awesome matchup to see if we have a 190whp Otter out there with a 175whp 2200lb FWD/DWB car.

Still wondering how that RX8 was so quick at 3000lbs and what - 215whp?

It's a cool class for sure. Needs moar K20 and NSX. :) I wish there was no limit on chassis age.

[Rabbit07]

Still wondering how that RX8 was so quick at 3000lbs and what - 215whp?



You work on it like we did for hours..days...weeks

[Andy Bettencourt]

You work on it like we did for hours..days...weeks

It should be way down on p/w to anything well built.

[Greg Amy]

Guess you missed that power to weight estimate on the 1.6?
Guess you missed we're talking about the 1.8...? I sincerely doubt Drago dropped a 1.6L into his NB.

GA

Edit: And, if someone considers them self a true Miata wheel-man (or -woman) the STL-prepped 1.6L Miata will weigh 350 pounds less than Drago's car. Cam and compression that thing up with good top-end valvetrain components and there is your "Sweet Geezus".


We are all in agreement that the Honda's are well positioned to dominate the class and the more I hear the more I 100% believe it was originally conceived as a Honda/FWD swap class. Barriers are being put up and clarifications are being made to protect that original philosophy. No problems, just crazy limiting as we have beaten to death before. 'They' want a FWD Honda swap class, so be it. It won't survive. ESPECIALLY when someone like Drago builds a Miata that, on paper, isn't a match for a well built and well driven HondAcura and his prep and driving make everyone look foolish. It will create ridiculous FUD, weight and limits will ensue and the class will die...

Just my prediction.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Guess you missed we're talking about the 1.8...? I sincerely doubt Drago dropped a 1.6L into his NB.

GA

Edit: And, if someone considers them self a true Miata wheel-man (or -woman) the STL-prepped 1.6L Miata will weigh 350 pounds less than Drago's car. Cam and compression that thing up with good top-end valvetrain components and there is your "Sweet Geezus".

Talking about the 1.6 Honda vs the perceived equality. Glad you quoted me above, because so far, it's almost true. Time will tell what the STAC does with the RWD weights given the sample and quality of the fields.

Edit: On the 1.6 Mazda, I wonder what power the FP cars are putting down and how close those cam specs are to ST rules. Could be a fun option.

[bamfp]

Talking about the 1.6 Honda vs the perceived equality. Glad you quoted me above, because so far, it's almost true. Time will tell what the STAC does with the RWD weights given the sample and quality of the fields.

Edit: On the 1.6 Mazda, I wonder what power the FP cars are putting down and how close those cam specs are to ST rules. Could be a fun option.

When I worked at Sunbelt we built a basic FP Miata engine. It made 175 crank hp. That was with I think .390" cams and 10 to 1. I think the good ones now are making 185+. So it will make at the crank what the B16 Honda engine should almost make at the wheels.

[Andy Bettencourt]

When I worked at Sunbelt we built a basic FP Miata engine. It made 175 crank hp. That was with I think .390" cams and 10 to 1. I think the good ones now are making 185+. So it will make at the crank what the B16 Honda engine should almost make at the wheels.

Bummer - good info though. I have to think that the solid lifters on the 99+ are a huge factor in making power.

[mossaidis]

I am no B16 expert... yet, I think making 180whp with a B16 on 93 octane is a high mark, certainly not impossible. 185 whp might be a stretch.

[jdrago1]

Still wondering how that RX8 was so quick at 3000lbs and what - 215whp?



Andy
That RX8 honestly was not that "fast"! It was however, very well prepped and sorted. It handled and broke really well, Ray obviously had lots of laps in the car and drove it well. My Miata did not show its' true potential, I was oiling down the tires and didn't realize it until well after the race( months). I thought it was just too stiff on rear shocks. Without the Miata oiling down tires, IMO whoever is driving the miata in that race would have won. I think the Miata would have taken much of the driver factor out of the race. With the weight this year and the many cars coming this year, I imagine the same Miata will be tail end of the lead pack or maybe even mid pack depending on how many cars come next year.
Jim

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy
That RX8 honestly was not that "fast"! It was however, very well prepped and sorted. It handled and broke really well, Ray obviously had lots of laps in the car and drove it well. My Miata did not show its' true potential, I was oiling down the tires and didn't realize it until well after the race( months). I thought it was just too stiff on rear shocks. Without the Miata oiling down tires, IMO whoever is driving the miata in that race would have won. I think the Miata would have taken much of the driver factor out of the race. With the weight this year and the many cars coming this year, I imagine the same Miata will be tail end of the lead pack or maybe even mid pack depending on how many cars come next year.
Jim

Good info Jim. Like I have said, the danger here was regulating the RWD cars out of competitiveness before any top flight FWD cars get developed. The reason they did so well was hey were well driven, already developed packages. Your situation notwithstanding, it was obvious that you did more motor development in year one than anyone in the class could fathom.

[Greg Amy]

<shaking head...>

[Andy Bettencourt]

It was more than *I* could fathom for sure, especially in V.1. Either way, given the known HP/weight ratios, it was a quick move.