To build or not to build

[HQHITA]

Gentlemen, I'm new here. I have tried searching, but to no avail.

I have in my possession a 95 Civic DX hatchback. I wanted to convert it to Si spec and run it in ITA. I have a z6 motor, tranny, I have the rear disc brakes, I have the proportioning valve, power steering rack, basically everything I need (except for a sunroof) all sitting outside the car.

Is the 92-95 EG Si competitive in ITA? Is it even legal for me to do conversion?

Should I abandon ship (sell the car, and all the parts) before I even get started?

I don't mind doing the work, mainly I want to know if it will be competitive. I can't really find any results or info on them which leads me to believe that I am answering my own question...

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
J

[Chip42]

why not leave it a DX and run ITB? less work, and also a good class with a lot of competition in many parts fo the country. the EG Si is a good car in ITA, though, yes. having a stock, solid-roof car as an Si will be at best questionably legal, though most people wouldn't object I don't think. also don't forget the differe control arms, steering rack,...

[Knestis]

I'd recommend sticking with B as well. That car is a drop-dead great option there.

THAT SAID, there are good IT cars out there for less money than you will spend to build one - even if you value your time at $0/hr. The price of the car is just a fraction of the total build cost.

Tristan Herbert has his ITB VW Golf for sale, which has demonstrated it's one of the best in the nation. (Check the classifieds here.) If you find yourself suffering from sticker shock looking at used race car prices, be warned that building (whatever) will cost 2x or more to achieve the same "sum of the parts" as buying.

Good luck!

Kirk

[joeg]

Where are you "J"??

There are many used built good IT cars for sale. Buy your first car.

[JohnW8]

I agree with buying a car being the cheaper alternative but I can say I've spent a lot of money fixing things on my "race-ready" car to suit me that makes building a car not seem so expensive.

And keep in mind building a car you will know every nut and bolt on it and know it's done right from the start.

There are 2 sides to everything.

[lateapex911]

While it seems you have "all the parts", ready to go, be careful.
Make a list:
Include on it things like
A racing radiator, an oil system/cooler/accusump.
The engine build.
The dyno time tweaking the tuning, the intake the exhaust, etc.
The cage, the seat, the safety stuff. Fire bottle.
SetS of wheels.
Tires.
Super jammy shocks.
Coilovers and race springs.
Strut tower plates, or similar.
Custom machined suspension bushings.
Super custom (or off the shelf) sway bar and other suspension bits.
Custom exhaust header and system.
Replacements for your hubs, bearings, brakes, pads, fluid, lines (Stainless steel at the wheels)
A different final drive and some form of ltd slip.


That's just off the top of my head. Now, you may say, "Well, I don't plan on being competitive first season so I don't need a built engine" (or similar). OK, fine, but, if you are competitive (uh, you want to race, so I'd assume you're competitive, ;) ), you will be going through the car adding the stuff I listed.
In the end, you WILL spend more for the same thing. Now, you might spread it out over two years, but, $20K is still more than $11K, no matter when and how long it takes to get there.
Some say" "I want to build so I know the car". Buy, then spend a weekend taking stuff apart and cleaning it, then putting it back together, you'll know it well.

[bamfp]

I am in the process of building a 92-95 Civic EX for ITA right now. I hope to have out at the end of April. I think it will make a good addition to ITA.

But like others have said it would also make a great ITB car. Cost run either one should be about the same. The B version might be a little cheaper.

[gran racing]

Buy. There are several cars out on the market which you simply can't get even close to after building something especially if you want a competitive car.

I'm having a hard time emotionally parting with my car which is why I haven't been more actively trying to sell it, but with a different ride for the next two years I guess it's time to part ways. I'll be listing it for a bit less than what's posted on here (in my sig).

[HQHITA]

why not leave it a DX and run ITB? less work, and also a good class with a lot of competition in many parts fo the country. the EG Si is a good car in ITA, though, yes. having a stock, solid-roof car as an Si will be at best questionably legal, though most people wouldn't object I don't think. also don't forget the differe control arms, steering rack,...

Mainly because I thought more people ran ITA. I'm in Orlando like you. I thought I had seen more participants in ITA in recent races. Also i thought ita was faster than ITB and thus more fun.

I figure the cost to build both cars are somewhat similar. I don't want to piss people off if my car doesn't have a sunroof. I would hate for people to think I am cheating. Don't we have to remove a sunroof anyways though?

I might contact you about a roll cage if I pull the trigger on this thing.

[HQHITA]

I'd recommend sticking with B as well. That car is a drop-dead great option there.

THAT SAID, there are good IT cars out there for less money than you will spend to build one - even if you value your time at $0/hr. The price of the car is just a fraction of the total build cost.

Tristan Herbert has his ITB VW Golf for sale, which has demonstrated it's one of the best in the nation. (Check the classifieds here.) If you find yourself suffering from sticker shock looking at used race car prices, be warned that building (whatever) will cost 2x or more to achieve the same "sum of the parts" as buying.

Good luck!

Kirk

Thanks man. I agree with you that buying a car is cheaper. That's not making my decision easier. That sounds like a great car, but I'm partially obligated to run Honda for work and cost reasons (I sell them).

[HQHITA]

Where are you "J"??

There are many used built good IT cars for sale. Buy your first car.

Sorry, Orlando, FL. I saw an ITA CRX for sale that is pretty cheap. Just kind of far from me. Could be a good option too...

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29574

Anyone know this car? Looks a little beat up, but has tons of spares...

[HQHITA]

I agree with buying a car being the cheaper alternative but I can say I've spent a lot of money fixing things on my "race-ready" car to suit me that makes building a car not seem so expensive.

And keep in mind building a car you will know every nut and bolt on it and know it's done right from the start.

There are 2 sides to everything.

I agree 100% with this. I have access to a great shop, and I think the guys would like building it as well. Plus I would know the idiosyncrasies of the car...

[philstireservice]

First off - faster isn't always more fun. It's all relative. I know someone in Florida that says ITB is quite popular and to boot, we are building new wheels for the Honda's.....:happy204:

[HQHITA]

While it seems you have "all the parts", ready to go, be careful.
Make a list:
Include on it things like
A racing radiator, an oil system/cooler/accusump.
The engine build.
The dyno time tweaking the tuning, the intake the exhaust, etc.
The cage, the seat, the safety stuff. Fire bottle.
SetS of wheels.
Tires.
Super jammy shocks.
Coilovers and race springs.
Strut tower plates, or similar.
Custom machined suspension bushings.
Super custom (or off the shelf) sway bar and other suspension bits.
Custom exhaust header and system.
Replacements for your hubs, bearings, brakes, pads, fluid, lines (Stainless steel at the wheels)
A different final drive and some form of ltd slip.


That's just off the top of my head. Now, you may say, "Well, I don't plan on being competitive first season so I don't need a built engine" (or similar). OK, fine, but, if you are competitive (uh, you want to race, so I'd assume you're competitive, ;) ), you will be going through the car adding the stuff I listed.
In the end, you WILL spend more for the same thing. Now, you might spread it out over two years, but, $20K is still more than $11K, no matter when and how long it takes to get there.
Some say" "I want to build so I know the car". Buy, then spend a weekend taking stuff apart and cleaning it, then putting it back together, you'll know it well.

Great advice. Those are in the budget (mine not wifeys!!!)

[Knestis]

An ITA car isn't enough faster than an ITB car to be inherently more fun. Make your pick based on competition. That's what's ULTIMATELY more fun.

K

[HQHITA]

So it seems that the general consensus is:
1. Car would be competitive in ITA
2. Car would also be competitive in ITB.
3. Legality of the car is somewhat in question in ITA because of the lack of the sunroof which we have to remove regardless.
4. Much more expensive to build vs. buy

[HQHITA]

An ITA car isn't enough faster than an ITB car to be inherently more fun. Make your pick based on competition. That's what's ULTIMATELY more fun.

K

I agree. Thats the whole reason I wanted to get into ITA. I just checked a couple results for Sebring and ITA is almost twice as many participants as ITB...

[Matt93SE]

yeah, pretty much.

Also keep in mind ITA and ITB are almost always on the track at the same time. If you want to race the other guys, just pretend the sticker on the door says something else, and don't get in the way if there's an in-class battle somewhere in the top 3-4 positions. (If you get between me and the leader and cost me contingency money or a #1 trophy, then expect to get an earful...)

But yeah, everything else you've mentioned is spot-on. It's a LOT cheaper to buy a running car than to build one. For the price of the cage in my car, I could have bought one of three different pro-built chassis that have come up for sale in the last year or two. If I were doing it over again, I would most certainly buy one of those chassis and then put my preferred brand of engine/suspension/etc goodies on it.

[HQHITA]

What's the best place to find cars for sale. I checked this forum, but there are only a couple of cars

[gran racing]

Word of mouth. Even when some of us are kind of in the market to sell our cars, we have formed such ties to them we don't exactly try to hard. (Raises hand.) Weird how the For Sales signs were brought to a few events I attended but never made it on the car. It's also hard for many people to sell a car because the cars are being listed at 1/2 or less than what was spent financially, then there's a TON of time spent on the development aspect.

To give you an idea, looking at a car build spreadsheet with a guy who is not slow at doing things, already has the donor car, doesn't need to spend much time researching development issues, and so forth is estimating 200 hours for the build not including any painting. I think it's going to add up to more than that. Note: this is for a really well built car.

Sometimes you can post here what you're looking for and if anyone knows where you one might be found; also attend events and ask competitors. Oh, and do NOT discount shipping cars or making a weekend trip going to get one yourself. You might be surprised with how reasonable some shipping companies are.

[raffaelli]

So it seems that the general consensus is:
1. Car would be competitive in ITA
2. Car would also be competitive in ITB.
3. Legality of the car is somewhat in question in ITA because of the lack of the sunroof which we have to remove regardless.
4. Much more expensive to build vs. buy


It is way more expensive to build than to buy. I went against the very good advise from the very best mentors on this site and built a car. Money poured out as compared to buying on, easily 2:1 and 5 digits came in a hurry. On top of that there was an entire season of trying to get stuff right and a bunch of missed events.

That said, I made the right choice for me to build. For me, the experience was totally worth it as I had zero car experience prior.

However, my next car....will be purchased.

[R2 Racing]

I actually have a very quick '92 ITB DX hatchback that I'm looking to sell. Thought I had it sold in the past couple of days, but looks like that's falling through. It won the ARRC in 2010, and was poised to possibly repeat in 2011 before a brake problem forced me to withdraw while running in second during the race. It's definitely one of the fastest ITB cars in the country, and just needs fresh belts to be race ready. I still haven't officially listed it publicly yet, as I just haven't got around to it while trying to complete a lot of work on the rest of my cars. Only reason I'm looking to sell is to "thin the hurd". Easily the most fun to drive and easiest to work on car I've ever experienced, with Honda reliability, consistency, and parts support. If you'd like to talk about it, feel free to email me at "kevin at ruckracing dot com".

[benspeed]

When I started racing I looked at what was winning and bought a built car and went out and raced competitively.

I listened to the advice and benefited from it tremendously as a newb. One of my best buds didn't take advice and built his first car and has $25k in an ITA car that still hasn't finished a race....he could be running a top car in any IT class and winning races instead of fiddling with the car...

[lateapex911]

As an FYI, Ruck bleeds Honda blood. HE's been around them and knows them well, and has had an ITC (?), ITB, ITA and ITS Honda in the stable over the years. I think the S, the A and the B cars have all won the ARRC or set track records someplace.

So, if nothing else, listen to his words of wisdom, he knows from what he speaks.

[R2 Racing]

As an FYI, Ruck bleeds Honda blood. HE's been around them and knows them well, and has had an ITC (?), ITB, ITA and ITS Honda in the stable over the years. I think the S, the A and the B cars have all won the ARRC or set track records someplace.

So, if nothing else, listen to his words of wisdom, he knows from what he speaks.
Thanks, Jake. I do still have my ITC '85 Civic H/B too, which I'm also looking to sell. The ITS Prelude is the only one that's gone. My ITS, ITA, ITB, & ITC Honda's have all won Divisional Championships & set track records, while the ITA & ITB cars have also won ARRC's. Then there's that FP car, that hasn't done too bad for itself either. Been tweaking on Honda's for 17 years now, and for 13 years in SCCA Club Racing.

[Chip42]

keep in mind ITA and ITB are almost always on the track at the same time.
not in the SEDIV, usually they pair ITB/C with FP/HP and ITA and S into another group.


So it seems that the general consensus is:
1. Car would be competitive in ITA
2. Car would also be competitive in ITB.
3. Legality of the car is somewhat in question in ITA because of the lack of the sunroof which we have to remove regardless.
4. Much more expensive to build vs. buy

you got it. in order of importance, though, I'd say it's 4, 3, 2, 1. just sayin.


What's the best place to find cars for sale. I checked this forum, but there are only a couple of cars

here, racingjunk.com, the brown board, ebay believe it or not, the local and national SCCA magazines, etc... between Tristan Herbert's Golf and Kevin Ruck's civic being for sale, you can BUY some of the best ITB cars in the country. if you do, don't expect to be as fast as them right out of the box, though. seat time rules, some natural talent doesn't hurt either.

whatever you choose, let us know if you need guidance, support, or anything else (like those 15x6" wheels ;) )- we're here to help.

also know that A and B are both strong in the CFR, and sediv. ITA is dominated by miatas, with a bunch of integras, civics, and CRX's mixed in, while ITB is heavy on VW, but there's also a bunch of corollas, MR2s, civics, accords, preludes, etc... in the sediv. in our stables alone there are 7 ITB cars...

[HQHITA]

If you guys keep making so much sense, I won't know what to do! Thanks for the advice and all the replies. Makes a ton of sense.

Here's a little more info so you can get a better feel what I am thinking.

The car basically cost me nothing, but I have a D16z6 that I acquired that I already paid for it to be balanced and blue printed. I have a clutch and FW that's the same. There has been some investment in getting all the other parts as well to make it an Si. Plus bearings, pumps, gasket set is in my possession as well. I own a race seat, mounts, harness, fuel cell, window net.

I can't really sell the DX to someone on the street because I sold the a/c system out if it and I have a spun bearing...

Also, Building the car would be a team building activity at the office that could inspire some of the techs.

However, i cant discount you guy's advice which would basically mean to part out what I have at a loss and buy a ready made car. But I am really torn. I've had the car and the parts for almost two years btw... Just waiting for the right time.

Is there an easy button anywhere?

$4500 for an ITA CRX is soooo cheap too. Couldn't get a donor car and a cage for that probably...

[HQHITA]

Thanks for the offers guys, but I am pretty set on ITA. Either in this car to build or buying a CRX from someone

[ajmr2]

I agree. Thats the whole reason I wanted to get into ITA. I just checked a couple results for Sebring and ITA is almost twice as many participants as ITB...

Ditto on buying a built and log booked car, whatever the class. Just remember this. Fewer guys in your class means a better chance of winning! I won my first 2 races in 20 years last year when no one else showed up in my class and I had a blast racing 30+ other guys! Yeah, I got some grief about it from my ITB buddies, but all I had to do was show them my trophy and checkered flag!
I'd look at eBay too.
:eclipsee_steering:

[Matt93SE]

Nothing stopping you from building a car if you want to. I insisted on building my own and wouldn't question doing it again... BUT building my own car from scratch was the point of the project.

If going the fastest for the cheapest- NOW- is your goal, then buying a car is the best way to do that. If you want to spend the time drinking some beers with your buds and build a car from scratch, then take a season (or three) making it competitive, then don't hold back.

[gran racing]

Build it, keep it a low-ish buck car, do NOT fall into the trap of pouring lots of cash into the car (which you will), gain some racing experience, sell the car for a well-build one. Although this will never work because you will find yourself spending more and more money as well as time, then feel like if only one more thing were done...then another...then another, and the cycle continues.

[HQHITA]

Nothing stopping you from building a car if you want to. I insisted on building my own and wouldn't question doing it again... BUT building my own car from scratch was the point of the project.

If going the fastest for the cheapest- NOW- is your goal, then buying a car is the best way to do that. If you want to spend the time drinking some beers with your buds and build a car from scratch, then take a season (or three) making it competitive, then don't hold back.

Thanks. THis might be what I was waiting to hear. That might be the point of the whole deal. Build the car, shoot the s**t, race it, make it better, etc...

[HQHITA]

Build it, keep it a low-ish buck car, do NOT fall into the trap of pouring lots of cash into the car (which you will), gain some racing experience, sell the car for a well-build one. Although this will never work because you will find yourself spending more and more money as well as time, then feel like if only one more thing were done...then another...then another, and the cycle continues.

THat would be best case. Ideally, ITA for a while then win the lotto and race Porsche Cup cars...

Hey one can dream right?:rolleyes:

[Matt93SE]

..... There's always LeMons and ChumpCar too. :eek: ...

As Dave Gran said too, you'll wind up throwing piles of money at the thing in development if you really want to make it fast. That's where you benefit from buying a built car.
I missed buying an old Speedworld Challenge car a few years ago and I REALLY wish I'd have done it now. It was a roller for like $2200, but included just about everything but the engine and ECU. But I was broke and couldn't afford to build it if I wanted to. since then, I've bought a car, put a cage in it, and am still building the thing.. I'm nowhere near the prep level of that car and I've got probably $15k into this one now.

Basically I'm doing exactly what Dave said above NOT to do. :)

[gran racing]

Don't feel bad Matt, I did the same thing. :(

[HQHITA]

Don't feel bad Matt, I did the same thing. :(

That was going to be a question I was going to ask. FOr everyone that's saying don't build it!! Buy one! How many actually bought vs. built the car.

I think building might be part of the process...

Here I go, Hopefully see you guys soon (though $15,000 later):)

[lateapex911]

The smart ones learn from the mistakes. The rest of us just advise others, LOL

[HQHITA]

The smart ones learn from the mistakes. The rest of us just advise others, LOL

It's only money right? I'm sure I'm going to advise someone: don't build a car, buy one made, etc...

I think second car will be bought when funds allow...

[marka]

Howdy,


Build it, keep it a low-ish buck car, do NOT fall into the trap of pouring lots of cash into the car (which you will), gain some racing experience, sell the car for a well-build one. Although this will never work because you will find yourself spending more and more money as well as time, then feel like if only one more thing were done...then another...then another, and the cycle continues.

FWIW, this was my plan for my ITA Neon, which was a "buy it, don't build it" thing. Its still my plan, but at this point I've got probably $5k to $7k (I don't really want to know) into a car that isn't done yet (though I think I've spent most of the money. Wait. Was that the sound of my block cracking as I said that? :-). I can't imagine that I'll ever be able to sell the car for anything like that kinda money.

But its still the plan... I'm resisting the urge to get a Neon shell to put a real cage in, vs the modified bolt in one in my current car. I'm resisting the urge to build the motor. Etc. I figure if I'm going to get really serious, I should do it with something like an ITA miata or perhaps another 'clearly the car to have in the class' choice.

I will say that "buy it built" means you need to be willing to deal with stuff that isn't to your personal standards. Nearly all the money going into my car is some level of "I want it to go faster" or "I don't like that". I've been lucky in that there haven't been any nasty surprises or anything... The car is basically what I thought it was. But there's still things where when I look at how it was done, I decide to redo it which takes time and sometimes money.

Mark

(In hindsight, I'd have bought a different car if I'd known what the future was going to bring. Either Child's "more ITA Neons and parts than you can fit in your trailer" deal, or maybe the ITB Golf that's for sale now. But those deals weren't out there when I was looking. There was an ITA civic sedan that looked like a good build though, and I should've probably lowballed him.)

[gran racing]

It's only money right?

Not even close. I know you said your shop and guys would enjoy several building aspects, but lets not forget what it really takes to build a quality car (it goes well beyond just the basics). There's a stupid number of hours to get things figured out. I absolutely would never have built my car again look back at things.

The other big difference IMO right now is that there are multiple cars which can be bought at a modest price, and it's the driver whose not taking it up front versus the car. In this thread alone, you're hearing about three or more guys who have cars that will be racing in other categories and whose cars will otherwise sit.

You want a project car for the boys? I like the previous idea. Build a Chump Car and drive it as a team. Buy your car and get out there racing something nice right away.

[mossaidis]

Am I a late arrival for this thread? :) Jero, I will share everything I know about my build and, what in opinion, works or does not work. Much of my knowledge, which is really translated from others, will transfer to your car if you decide to build as IT car where as an ITA or ITB car. Let me get online tonight from home and I will pour my guts out on this thread... (par for the course)

[Brettt]

I just thought I would chime in on the "build it in spite all conventional wisdom" side of things. I am well aware that it isn't for everyone to build your first car, and there is A LOT to be said about buying one already built. While you will learn a lot from building a car(what we did), I believe there is also a lot to be said about buying a turn-key car and looking at how it's put together.

For instance, while the labor of doing it yourself may be free, I'm still finding myself spending many nights trolling forums to find tips and tricks that fast people have done on my car. While all of this is well and good, personally I'm a very visual, hands-on kind of learner and nothing compares to seeing how it works in person. I can look at numbers and spring rates and suspension diagrams all day and night, but it seems that only after we've bought and installed the stuff on the car does it really "click" for me. It seems I need to feel the difference from the driver's seat before I really understand it.

Just something to keep in mind. I'm 100% confident that I'm a better driver because we've built our own motor after the first one grenaded in the Driver's School, made improvements to the cage design(additional bracing and such), and changed spring rates and adjusted the suspension settings in the pursuit of those dang Miatas. It is true that all of these things take time, but for me at least, it is WELL worth it in the end to have an far greater understanding of the car dynamics and the effect that the different changes have made. As far as I'm concerned, knowledge = speed.

Also, we won our first 2 races this past year in our second season of running in the Midwest Division after muchissimo help diagnosing things and getting a decent setup from people like Greg Amy and Matt Kessler that I found on this very forum. :smilie_pokal:

[Darryl Pritchett]

Check out my post on here under other race cars for sale. I have a 2001 Honda Prelude SH that has been running SSB. Currently has a blown engine but would make a very competitive ITS car and has the capability of putting out over 200WHP. Tons of spares to go with it all for $2,500. Three tranny's, two ATTS units, 3 sets of wheels and tires one being a set of Hoosier Wets with one session. Hood, bumper and more. This would keep you in a Honda and could get you on the track for a lot less then building.

[HQHITA]

Wow. That's ridiculous. I am not far from you. Is the car in Daytona or Deltona?

FML, make it more confusing... I don't know a thing about preludes though...

[Darryl Pritchett]

Car is in Daytona, come look at it.

[HQHITA]

That seems like a ridiculous deal, but wouldn't it cost a bunch of money (maybe not as much) to convert that car to ITS specs?

I am thinking you need suspension, exhaust, header, intake, ECU, motor, blueprint motor, clutch, etc...?

Whereas the my hatch plus a cage should be less than $2500 and the rest of the stuff I still need. Difference is spares. But EG parts are cheaper and it should be cheaper to run.

Am I off base here? The thought of owning a car for $2500 is unbelievably appealing, but then I start adding all the other stuff and i'm kind of back at square one no?

[Chip42]

Am I off base here? The thought of owning a car for $2500 is unbelievably appealing, but then I start adding all the other stuff and i'm kind of back at square one no?

you DO get spare wheels, tires, trans, a cage already in the car (assumes the cage is good, as making any modifications is easier than building from scratch), kill switch, fire bottle, likely some sorting already done that transfers to IT. and parts of the motor (I don't know how bad it is). that $2500 might not be the best deal in the history of racing, but it is a pretty good deal.

also, whatever you wind up doing, you don't "need" to build a motor to the nines. honda did a good job building them in the first place, so pull a good junkyard mill and go driving. build the good motor later.

[Darryl Pritchett]

Car has brand new clutch with only one weekend of racing. Yes it has a very nicely done cage already in the car, has carbotech brakes. It already has a different computer in it so it can be tuned. These H22A V-Tech motors with very little extra work can produce 200+Whp. Go racing with a salvage yard motor for a year and learn to drive the car to its capability then start thinking about a fully built IT motor.

[Bill Miller]

That seems like a ridiculous deal, but wouldn't it cost a bunch of money (maybe not as much) to convert that car to ITS specs?

I am thinking you need suspension, exhaust, header, intake, ECU, motor, blueprint motor, clutch, etc...?

Whereas the my hatch plus a cage should be less than $2500 and the rest of the stuff I still need. Difference is spares. But EG parts are cheaper and it should be cheaper to run.

Am I off base here? The thought of owning a car for $2500 is unbelievably appealing, but then I start adding all the other stuff and i'm kind of back at square one no?

The spare wheels/tires would cost at least half of what he's asking for the car. And I'm pretty sure you could just slap some ITS stickers (and weight stickers) on the car, as is, and run itl

You're a Honda guy and the car is close to you. For $2500, you're getting a big jump on the build. I haven't priced them, but I would not be surprised if a cage for you car is $2000 - $2500.

You can probably have this car, w/ a stock motor, on the track for <$5000. Hard to do that in ITS. And it's a Honda, so it should be dead reliable.

Faster cars are usually more expensive to run, but I don't think it would be that big a difference between an ITS Honda and an ITA Honda. The spares that come w/ this car will also go a long way to mitigate that.

The nice thing, is that you could be on the track and work on developing the car as you learn it.

[callard]

I've built all 8 of my racecars over the years and a couple for friends. It's fun but expensive. And takes mucho time. What he's asking for the SSB car is less than most of my spares packages. BUY IT!!!!! Stick a JY motor in it and go racing.
You and your shop buds can build your dream car at a more leisurly pace as your wallet allows. Meanwhile your driver skill set will outpace your fabricator skill set.
BUY IT!!!!!:023:

[HQHITA]

Thanks for the advice guys. I am going to go look at the car early next week.

Thanks again

[lateapex911]

(In hindsight, I'd have bought a different car if I'd known what the future was going to bring. Either Child's "more ITA Neons and parts than you can fit in your trailer" deal, or maybe the ITB Golf that's for sale now. But those deals weren't out there when I was looking. There was an ITA civic sedan that looked like a good build though, and I should've probably lowballed him.)

Mark, not picking on you here, but, just running with your point.
For those that don't know, Mark likes to ask questions and get advice. Then he ignores it. ;)
So, when he went race car shopping, I seem to recall he got advice to buy a good car with a pedigree, and even if it cost double what the cheap cars were selling for, it would still be a deal.

But of course the lure of the deal is strong.
And if I'm not mistaken, the car still hasn't driven in a race yet.
So, while the great cars here might sound expensive, when you do the REAL math, they're freakin deals.

[lateapex911]

Just saw the prelude post. Paging kevin Ruck. he can tell you about the potential. I recall he had a Prelude that set a lap record at Mid Ohio, in ITS I think. Thats pretty impressive, as Kip VS has run there. I might be confused, but, look into the specific with Kev (PM him from here) and you might find the Lude has top drawer potential.
ITS in FL is very well represented...actually it's hopping all across the SE.
A car with a logbook, a good cage a good chassis and spare wheels with for 2500 should be seriously considered.
It will get you ON the track AND you can build it up as you see fit. best of both worlds???

[HQHITA]

Just saw the prelude post. Paging kevin Ruck. he can tell you about the potential. I recall he had a Prelude that set a lap record at Mid Ohio, in ITS I think. Thats pretty impressive, as Kip VS has run there. I might be confused, but, look into the specific with Kev (PM him from here) and you might find the Lude has top drawer potential.
ITS in FL is very well represented...actually it's hopping all across the SE.
A car with a logbook, a good cage a good chassis and spare wheels with for 2500 should be seriously considered.
It will get you ON the track AND you can build it up as you see fit. best of both worlds???

That's exactly what I am thinking...

[almracing]

HQHITA - J, sent you a PM.

[JLawton]

Trust me, even if you buy a built car, a race car is one continueous project. There's always stuff to work on. So don't feel just because you bought a "built" car that you'll be sitting around drinking beer with nothing to do.

Even when my car was running well, we would spend a couple of hours between race weekends doing a nut and bolt, checking set-up, looking for broken stuff and tweaking it to make it go faster. in my opinion, one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle to being fast is prep. Good prep takes time........


Edit: I built my first car..... biggest mistake I ever made. It probably set my driving developement back 3-4 years because I spent all the time working/building the car instead of working on my driving skills. The bottom line is do you want to be out on the track racing THIS season or spending a couple of years in the garage?

[pavis]

HQHITA:

PM sent re: ITA crx for sale

Pete

[Chip42]

FWIW I LOVE building racecars, and I encourage anyone who has the gumption for it to give it a shot. but as has been said above, even a built car is an ongoing project and after a few years you will have rebuilt it to be pretty much what you want it to be, but meanwhile you will be driving the thing and learning. Also, you might pick up some tricks done by the builder/previous owner(s) that you might not have thought of yourself.

Steve's MR2 was a logbooked car, but the only things left from the purchase are the shell with interior, header, differential, sway bars, strut tower bar, and main + fan switches. everything else, from the cage to the paint, was redone by Steve and the rest of TrackSpeed. so I guess that's a worst case scenario.

I built mine from a street car. it's 100% my designs, and I have WAY more in it than I could ever sell it for - just counting hard costs. it took years to get to where it is, meanwhile I was NOT driving. love the car, thoguh.

we have 2 other MR2s in the fleet that were purchased as running cars. both needed engines rebuilt within the first week of track use, and a few other odds and ends, but were generally ready to use AND came with tons of spares (full spare street car, each). huge savings, but there's a lot about both cars that isn't up to the same build standard as Steve and My cars... yet.

[HQHITA]

So it seems building a car is out the window.

Now the question becomes buy a very cheap SSB Prelude and convert to ITS or buy a ITA CRX for several thousand dollars more.

I've had a CRX before, never driven a Prelude. I like the promise of the speeds of ITS or ITR more (my street car runs 2:23's at Sebring).

There's probaly a $3500 difference in price. For Prelude, Motor is $1000, suspension $1500ish? Header is $1000ish? So real cost is very similar at the end of the day.

Parts for CRX are more common. Recipe for success in CRX more proven.

Opinions?

[gran racing]

Depending on the track, ITS and ITA speeds might not be all that different.

[HQHITA]

6 seconds at Sebring...

[Matt93SE]

If it were my choice, I'd buy a car already built to the class vs. converting one from another class. I'd choose the CRX.
What's the weight difference in the two? I would suppose both are faily cheap to run, but you're looking at greater consumables cost on a larger car. more tires & brakes mostly, slightly more fuel.

[HQHITA]

Almost 700 lbs in ITS and about 300 pounds in ITR (Prelude can run both).

COnsumables would be more expensive (specially Hoosiers)

I think prelude would be easier to drive than the CRX though...

[Matt93SE]

The CRX would be more "twitchy" at the limit due to the shorter wheelbase, but I would think it should do better on small tracks due to the same reason. The Prelude would be better at stretching its legs.

Kinda like my 240SX vs. a Miata. They're about the same power to weight ratio, but they get through corners a touch faster with the same basic setup and can get on the gas sooner on corner exit.. but I run them down and catch them in braking at the end of the straight and they have a hard time getting back around me. :)

[Wreckerboy]

Late to the party here, but were it me, I would lean towards:

1. Car with the largest knowledgebase if you hate inventing the wheel.
2. Car which will compete in the largest field. A fast car is nice, but a fast car with nothing to race against is boring.

Case in point - I race a SSM Miata. It's not the fastest class in the paddock. One of the bigger reasons for my choice in mounts was that I can race in a 40+ car field on average (Summit Point). That means that no matter where you are on the driver development curve you always have somebody to race against. As I've moved forward from starting in the 40s to running in the top 10 I've had ever increasing levels of competition which have forced me to up my game to compete.

EDIT - and buy, don't build. I've made that mistake more than once and all it does is waste seasons of money.

[HQHITA]

Late to the party here, but were it me, I would lean towards:

1. Car with the largest knowledge base if you hate inventing the wheel.
2. Car which will compete in the largest field. A fast car is nice, but a fast car with nothing to race against is boring.



Both fields have roughly same number of entries down here. CRX would get the nod for knowledge base and parts availability for sure.

Prelude looks clean, every CRX I have seen looks a little banged up...

[Chip42]

crx stuff just popped up. further away, and unfortunately the owner died last year (RIP Ken) but he knew his way around hondas and you'd be helping out his family.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30115

[HQHITA]

Thanks for heads up. I just emailed him.

Know anything about the car?

[Chip42]

I spent some time with Ken a few years back when he had his FP car at CMP, and some emails after. pretty sure that one is not part fo the sale though. just based on it and his knowledge, I'd assume they are good but not high-dollar pieces. Likely a very good "build it further" starting point for you.

I think that Rob (wreckerboy) has more info. maybe some of the other NE guys can add details, too.

[Bill Miller]

crx stuff just popped up. further away, and unfortunately the owner died last year (RIP Ken) but he knew his way around hondas and you'd be helping out his family.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30115

Sorry to hear about Ken, I raced w/ him years ago w/ EMRA. I also remember him w/ his GP or FP car at Summit. RIP

[Wreckerboy]

Kenny, his family, and the fabled "Stinkin' Honda" were good people. All that I know about Ken's stuff is that is most likely decent, "as represented" material. I highly doubt that the the person listing it or Ken's family would intentionally try to deceive anybody about its condition.

[Darryl Pritchett]

Come look a the Prelude because it is close to where you live and look at all the extras that come with it and then make your choice. As for the competitive part the Prelude could be a front runner at most any tracks. As a SSB car it was very fast at Roebling Road, Sebring & of course Daytona. It held track records at Nashville & Daytona. Daytona record was reset by a Mustang in SSB last August.

[TStiles]

Kinda like my 240SX vs. a Miata. They're about the same power to weight ratio, but they get through corners a touch faster with the same basic setup and can get on the gas sooner on corner exit.. but I run them down and catch them in braking at the end of the straight and they have a hard time getting back around me. :)

Not after Louie does my motor :D Just kidding , not this year ( maybe )

Very true about the way the cars race ... Miata qualifies quicker if it gets a clean lap ... 240SX passes at the start ... Miata & 240SX have a good race until miata driver is a nice guy to an EP car ... EP car holds up miata @ corner exit ... 240SX checks out

BTW : Don't build / Buy

[Matt93SE]

Trey, don't forget Blondie in the ITA Miata that likes to spin in front of us 3x a race. ;)
Watch out for the EP cars. they're either really fast, or they have really bad drivers. If they get in your way, just ride their bumper for 1/2 a lap or so and they'll spin and you can go on around.

[HQHITA]

I am very happy I found this forum. You guys have been a ton of help all ready. THere seems to be a ton of choices for cars in the budget I was thinking. Now to pick one...

I am leaning towards an ITA CRX despite the proximity of the Prelude. I am going to go see it. But the lack of parts support scares me.

[Chip42]

don't let parts support scare you off. it's a prelude, it's been done before, it can be done again. go-fast parts might cost a little bit more but compared to a few seasons of registration fees, tires, and towing even a few thousand in shocks seems paltry.

worry more about what the OEM and aftermarket will suppor tin terms of OEM-spec wear items. like wheel hubs. a dried up supply can bench the car. if the prelude is supported better than the CRX (and I have heard that some parts like that for the CRX are getting rare) then the prelude will be cheaper in the long run.

[seckerich]

A friend of mine has an 89 CRX ITA car that is for sale here in NC. Has the OPM inverted shock setup, LS, etc and is in the under $5000 price range. Good starter car. PM me if you have any interest.

[HQHITA]

don't let parts support scare you off. it's a prelude, it's been done before, it can be done again. go-fast parts might cost a little bit more but compared to a few seasons of registration fees, tires, and towing even a few thousand in shocks seems paltry.

worry more about what the OEM and aftermarket will suppor tin terms of OEM-spec wear items. like wheel hubs. a dried up supply can bench the car. if the prelude is supported better than the CRX (and I have heard that some parts like that for the CRX are getting rare) then the prelude will be cheaper in the long run.

I see where you are coming from, the though of a 23 year old race car is a bit daunting (vs. an 11 year old car)

It just seems like for cost reasons, (since we are not building any more) it would make sense to buy the best available car for the cheapest possible price vs. spending more money on the Prelude to make it an ITS car...

[HQHITA]

I went to see the Prelude. It is nicer/ cleaner than I thought and has a TON of spares...

More confused than ever.

CRX vs. Prelude. I need a sign :shrug:

[HQHITA]

A friend of mine has an 89 CRX ITA car that is for sale here in NC. Has the OPM inverted shock setup, LS, etc and is in the under $5000 price range. Good starter car. PM me if you have any interest.

Tried to PM you but I don't know if it went through.

[TStiles]

More confused than ever.

CRX vs. Prelude. I need a sign :shrug:

You could always hit the EZ button and buy a miata :D

[seckerich]

Tried to PM you but I don't know if it went through.

Replied, but here is the information.

Car is owned by my friend Steve Haupts Father and they were running track days with it and planned to race ITA. His father does not want to race it now so it is for sale. . As far as I know it is legal to current ITA specs and has some nice pieces on it. You can contact Steve at 828 Three Three Five 1864 and he can get you information on the car. It is even street legal and was tagged so he drove it to VIR for a track day.

[timo944]

If you find yourself suffering from sticker shock looking at used race car prices, be warned that building (whatever) will cost 2x or more to achieve the same "sum of the parts" as buying.

Good luck!

Kirk

You gotta be kidding Kirk. More like 5x !!!!!!!!!

[HQHITA]

I think I got a sign. No more CRX. Between prelude or buying a race ready integra. Either ITA or ITS.

[HQHITA]

Got the Prelude.

Thanks to Darryl.

Looking forward to seeing some of you guys out there.

J

[mossaidis]

congrats!

[mark500]

If here is a better option to purchase a car then why are you wasting your money and time both to built a car?:eclipsee_steering:

[Greg Amy]

If here is a better option to purchase a car then why are you wasting your money and time both to built a car?:eclipsee_steering:
Spammer or not? You decide before I go ahead and ban him and delete this post. - GA

(Why? Just created the account, first post is an attack, advertisement in signature).

[Chip42]

likely spam but it wasn't completely obnoxious. watch list, 3 strikes sort of thing?

[HQHITA]

I asked myself that question several times. It all started with me building a car though... I guess I did something "in the middle".

Prelude is coming along. Pulled the old motor last week, and found a donor motor. Went to pick up the car it was in yesterday, pulled it in the shop, and pulled out the motor in about 2 hours. Going to seal it all up just in case and drop it in. I'm removing the sound deadening this weekend and and installing the kill switch. The car should be way underweight so then comes adding ballast and I should be ITS ready.

I am planning on shaking the car down next weekend at Homestead w/ NASA in TTE.

How accessible should the kill switch be? I am planning on mounting it on the dash on the passenger side.

Also, I might remove the ABS and install an adjustable prop valve. Any adverse side effects of doing that?

[Chip42]

Jero - good to hear about your progress, and good that you got a doner spare car, too!

mount the kill switch such that you (as strapped into the seat) AND a corner worker can get to it. this is optional of course, but it's helpful to everyone. if you or the workers can't get to it, then it's not serving its purpose. my car has 2 mostly for this reason, as my seating position limited good interior mounting points to the center of the cockpit.

ABS is suppsoed to be disabled in IT. the honda brake hydraulic system is a diagonal, so when you add a manual prop valve you hav to either brake into both rear lines and add one to each or re-plumb the system such that one piston of the MC works one axle (F piston - F brakes/R-R is common convention). with a little preparation you can do all of this underhood and keep the hardlines form the OEM prop valve or ABS module, let me know if you need a hand here. for now, though, just pull the ABS fuse and deal with the dash light, it should work pretty much fine (verify that before braking when it counts!!!). The OEM ECU might get annoyed by the missing ABS.

[R2 Racing]

How accessible should the kill switch be? I am planning on mounting it on the dash on the passenger side.

Also, I might remove the ABS and install an adjustable prop valve. Any adverse side effects of doing that?
I'm a huge supporter of sticking the kill switch somewhere that the driver can reach it from his seat. If I'm in that car, and something happens, I sure as hell am going to want to be able to reach that switch. I always just weld a little plate on the drivers-side A-pillar down tube, just far enough away to still be in the drivers reach, and mount the kill-switch there. That way it's also right there on the edge of the window opening, so it's easily accesible by workers as well.

On my old ITS Prelude, I removed the entire ABS system. Per the rules, you're supposed to have it at least disabled, so why not remove it entirely (which is also legal per the rules). It's quite heavy, makes bleeding the brakes a bit more of a pain, and the routing of the hard-lines is long and usually in the way. If you remove it, you can replace the weight where you want it, bleeding becomes easy, custom make your own hard-lines and route them wherever you want, and you can stick in a simple bias controller very easily while doing the conversion. Win-win-win-win.

[HQHITA]

Awesome! Thanks guys. I will find a good location on the driver's side. With that Prelude, the passenger side is more convenient because of the way the harness is laid out and the battery. Drivers safety > running more feet of battery cable!

I'm glad you guys confirmed my suspicions about the ABS. I had a Longacre brake kit lying around from a couple of years ago and have all the flaring tools. I might just order a prop valve and do it this weekend. The engine bay part would be much easier to do while the motor is out.

Kevin, you routed the front line from the MC to a T to both front brakes and the rear line from MC through the prop valve to the rears correct?

[Terry Hanushek]

Greg


Spammer or not? You decide before I go ahead and ban him and delete this post. - GA

(Why? Just created the account, first post is an attack, advertisement in signature).

Delete the signature, leave the post

Terry

[R2 Racing]

Kevin, you routed the front line from the MC to a T to both front brakes and the rear line from MC through the prop valve to the rears correct?
Yup. The port on the MC closest to the radiator, I use for the fronts. One line out of it, into a T, and off to each front caliper. The port closest to the firewall goes out, through the firewall and along the exhaust tunnel to a prop valve located next to the seat, then another line out of the prop valve and back to a T located up on the rear passenger seat area, and then off to each rear caliper. Quite easy and effective. Just be sure to get yourself a nice double-flarring tool to make the ends of the brake line. Cheap ones from Harbor Freight or whatever don't work well at all. As for the T's, I just go down to the local junkyard and pull them out of cars. Especially early-mid 90's Toyota's, you can be find them easily accesible mounted right on the firewall. Same thread size any everything as Honda, and can easily be tossed into your toolbox. :023: