Minimum weight display

[Continuum]

I didn't find another thread about this...

How are people planning to display the minimum weight for their cars to satisfy GCR 9.3.29.D?


jason

[StephenB]

I didn't find another thread about this...

How are people planning to display the minimum weight for their cars to satisfy GCR 9.3.29.D?


jason

Missed that! Thanks for posting. I"ll probably get a 1" high sticker for the drivers side.

Stephen

[Chip42]

I have decals (thanks Marc!) that met the originally approved text of the rule, 2" tall and right under the class designation. after RM11-13 cam out and removed the 2" and 6" portions of the rule, Marc made me another set, about 1" tall because the others are just huge.

[Sandro]

http://www.lellaautosport.com/minimum_weight_decal.html

[Z3_GoCar]

Very nice Sandro: No requirement for height/placement, just put it where it's visable to Tech. I'm considering putting a sign on the roll bar/harness bar intersection. You know, right where you'd place a tech sticker.

[Greg Amy]

I'm considering putting a sign on the roll bar/harness bar intersection. You know, right where you'd place a tech sticker.
I don't recommend that. The purpose of this rule is so that as you're coming across the scales the guy sitting at the table with the books and the scales readout can simply look up at your car and easily read your numbers. If you make it difficult and/or they have to go looking for it, you're defeating the purpose and will likely be asked to fix it.

On the other hand, it's also a nice cross-check for competitors to see what they're declaring.

Don't be "that guy" and dink around with the intent of the rules...do it right, make it easy for everyone. Put it on the side of your car, right next to your number and class.

GA



9.3.29.D, p96 Jan 2012:

D. Displaying Minimum Weight
Except for classes in which there is only 1 required minimum weight (i.e., ASR, FB, FC, FE, FM, FS, FST, FV, SM5, SRF), all cars shall display the correct minimum weight specified in the current GCR in a manner that is clearly legible to the scrutineers at the scales. Cars that are run in more than one class must display the correct minimum weight for each class so that it is clear which weight applies to each class.



http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb345/GregAmy99/Temp/IMG_0087.jpg

[Z3_GoCar]

It doesn't say what size, or where it goes then I can put it in a spot that the guy waking up can see, without plastering it on both sides, and I'm not trying to hide it in the engine bay or the bottom of the car. Honestly, the only time my car's been on the scales is so that I can know what it weights.

[Greg Amy]

^^^^ <shaking head...>

.
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.
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[lawtonglenn]

I was thinking of on the roof over the passenger side window

[JeffYoung]

James, this is to help out the VOLUNTEERS in tech. Why be difficult about it? Put the weight on the side of the car.

Don't know about your region, but in ours, top 3 go over the scales every race.


It doesn't say what size, or where it goes then I can put it in a spot that the guy waking up can see, without plastering it on both sides, and I'm not trying to hide it in the engine bay or the bottom of the car. Honestly, the only time my car's been on the scales is so that I can know what it weights.

[jumbojimbo]

^^^^ <shaking head...>

Some people just like to make things difficult for no reason at all. Pissing off tech is about as self defeating as pissing off grid. There will come a day you'll forget your helmet and need to run back to the paddock. There will come a day when your car is 2 pounds underweight and someone will hand you a liter bottle of water.

I'm kind of curious why they changed the rule from what was originally written? Maybe because the placement of the class is only suggested and people like to get cute with their class letters too just to irritate corner workers and T&S.

[iambhooper]

Since I'm still rebuilding from the "shunt" at last October's Go, maybe it's time to replace the multitude of bat's :D

[jhooten]

I bought one of the mega-Sharpies. Then I realized the new car is black. Plan A out the window.

[joeg]

I've had mine on the SIDE of the cars for years. Only did so to help out tech.

[dickita15]

I'm kind of curious why they changed the rule from what was originally written?

To make it easy

[JLawton]

What's to ensure that people put the right weight on their car?

[Greg Amy]

What's to ensure that people put the right weight on their car?
You and $25.

[JeffYoung]

Talk about an easy protest...lol.....

[seckerich]

You put the weight on the side of the car so it is easy for tech when there are 30 cars to weigh in about 15 minutes. While you are racing tech goes through the cards to see if the weight you listed when you entered matches the GCR. If the weight you list on the car is bogus you will be in the stewards room in your near future.. :023:

[Harvey]

Steve

If the weight is on the card then it is up to the other competitor to protest if wrong.

I do understand but really why is this such a big deal?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Nobody thinks that an incorrect weight listed on the side of a car you are racing against would go unnoticed by the drivers? I don't get it.

Put it on, help tech out. For those that never get weighed? Sounds like you should ask your locals to do a check after a qual. Results would be fun!

[JLawton]

Who knows all the weights of their competition? Even if you look it up before, are you going to check it's the right number every time they roll across the scales? What are the chances that someone gets caught when they put a different weight on their car right before they go out for a race? And tech usually won't give you the weight of your OWN car. I can't imagine they'll be announcing it in the garage?? Will they start posting actual weights after?


Maybe I'm missing something??? :shrug:


.

[JLawton]

Nobody thinks that an incorrect weight listed on the side of a car you are racing against would go unnoticed by the drivers? I don't get it.



Andy, you are probably one of the FEW people who knows the weights of all the cars in ITA. The only weight I know in ITA is the Miata. I would have no clue what the Tegs are, what the CRXs are. I bet besides you, without looking it up, there is no one who knows the weight of the Saturn SC. How about the weight of the Saturn SL?

Again, are you gonna be chacking everyone's weights at the end of a race?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, you are probably one of the FEW people who knows the weights of all the cars in ITA. The only weight I know in ITA is the Miata. I would have no clue what the Tegs are, what the CRXs are. I bet besides you, without looking it up, there is no one who knows the weight of the Saturn SC. How about the weight of the Saturn SL?

Again, are you gonna be chacking everyone's weights at the end of a race?

Maybe I am the exception but I do know the ITCS. I don't commit it all to memory but I know the weights of cars I have considered building, cars that are quick and cars that I race against. When in impound, it's easy to see the weights staring you right in the face in a group. It would be unreal to have a wrong number on your car.

[Butch Kummer]

Who knows all the weights of their competition? Even if you look it up before, are you going to check it's the right number every time they roll across the scales? What are the chances that someone gets caught when they put a different weight on their car right before they go out for a race? And tech usually won't give you the weight of your OWN car. I can't imagine they'll be announcing it in the garage?? Will they start posting actual weights after?


Maybe I'm missing something??? :shrug:


.

I don't need (or want) to know the correct weights of all the cars in my class. What I DO know is the correct weights of the guys that might outrun me.

As a buddy of mine said long ago, "If you run at the back you can pretty much run whatever you want."

[jhooten]

Without knowing what engine is in my STO car how are you going to know if I have the correct weight on the car? LS1 weight with LS7 engine.

I stand by my "solution in search of a problem" opinion. SowDiv has been putting the wheel base, track, and WEIGHT from the tech sheet on the tech sticker for many years now. Every thing we need in tech to get the car across the scale. We didn't need a rule in the GCR. The weight alone on the car is fine IF you are using a platform scale. You need more information to get the cars across the scales in a timely fashion if, like many tech set ups, you are stuck with a set of portable 4 pad scales.

[Matt93SE]

Jerry, while you mention our weights are on the stickers.. For a SowDiv race, would that be considered sufficient to meet this rule from your tech perspective? I have no problem putting the weights on the car, but I might not have time to get it done before the Feb race due to work schedules.


for those of you that are complaining about displaying this, what advantage/disadvantage will this cause you? Someone might be able to figure out what size engine you have in the car, or what adder/multiplier you're running for an alternate suspension/engine/trans in some class? any of that stuff should be pretty easy to figure out anyway just by talking to the driver or looking in the window in grid or someone that knows the car to even listen to the engine putting around in the pits.

What's with all the secrecy? This ain't Formula 1!!

When I'm on track, the last thing I'm worried about is what my competitor weighs. I ASSUME the other guy is bringing a legal car since I made every effort to make my car legal and play within the rules. If I see something that I suspect is off, then and only then will say something to the competitor and give them a chance to fix it before I protest. but that's just me.. Trust but verify..

[Greg Amy]

Maybe I'm missing something??? :shrug:
Yes, the point.

Putting your weight on the side of the car makes it easier for tech to get cars across the scales faster. If you've ever worked tech (hint, hint) you'll know that the vast majority of the time is spent trying to look up each car as it goes across the scale, so that if there's a discrepancy you don't release them and go through the re-weigh procedure (which you've done -- not the tech part, the being light part...hint, hint...)

But that doesn't mean that Tech is going to take your word for it; no way. They'll still take the time AFTER to look up your weight and verify that you put the right numbers on the side of the car, and if you didn't, they'll toss you for the violation. And, it since you're running a little sign on the side of your car that says "hey, I'm cheating!" your competitors won't give you a pass, either (yes, most people have a general idea of the weight of their competition).

Volunteer for scrutineering one weekend (no hint there) and you'll understand a LOT better.

Quit yer bitchin' and put your numbers on the side of the car.

GA

[JS154]

Steve

If the weight is on the card then it is up to the other competitor to protest if wrong.

I do understand but really why is this such a big deal?

In ST - unclaimed head porting (1% weight adder) or unclaimed aftermarket sequential gearbox (100# weight adder) or relocated suspension pickup points (50# weight adder per end), also weight is determined by displacment - or turbo restrictor size or VTS spec.

[JLawton]

But that doesn't mean that Tech is going to take your word for it; no way. They'll still take the time AFTER to look up your weight and verify that you put the right numbers on the side of the car, and if you didn't, they'll toss you for the violation.
GA


THAT'S the part I was missing. The verification by tech that the number on the side of the car is the correct one. That makes sense now.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Without knowing what engine is in my STO car how are you going to know if I have the correct weight on the car? LS1 weight with LS7 engine.



Seeing as how this is an IT site, those issues are for you and your competitors to work out! I make it a point to know who I am running against.

And to Jeff's point, I do hate when Tech won't even give you your number real time. They should make a production out of it to be honest. "Number 09 ITA Miata, minimum 2380, actual 2401. NEXT!"

This gives the competitors an opportunity to protest should the Tech shed not want to take action if a car is 1-X lbs under.

[betamotorsports]

It doesn't say what size, or where it goes then I can put it in a spot that the guy waking up can see, without plastering it on both sides, and I'm not trying to hide it in the engine bay or the bottom of the car. Honestly, the only time my car's been on the scales is so that I can know what it weights.

James,

Since I'll be working Tech this weekend at Cal Speedway, please put the weight on both sides of the car. Doesn't need to be anything big or special, just make it so one of us can see it and yell it through the window to Greg. I think we are making stickers to give out to the car owners so that will be the easiest and cheapest solution. I'm not sure if we'll have them for this weekend.

The stickers from the Runoffs are great.

[betamotorsports]

And to Jeff's point, I do hate when Tech won't even give you your number real time. They should make a production out of it to be honest. "Number 09 ITA Miata, minimum 2380, actual 2401. NEXT!" This gives the competitors an opportunity to protest should the Tech shed not want to take action if a car is 1-X lbs under.

Here in Cal Club tech we view a competitor's weight as a private matter. We do not shout it out and will not give that number out to other competitors. If a competitor is underweight by even 1lb. the car gets rolled off and back on the scales and re-weighed. That's plenty of notice to the other competitors that there may be an issue. And, if the car is still underweight, by even 1 lb., we refer it to the Tech Steward for action.

[seckerich]

There is a scale log at every race in the southeast and it is even recorded when you just roll across to check weight on your own. The recorded weight in impound is not secret and you should ask to see the scale log if you have a question about a competitor. The numbers on the side of the car just get everyone weighed fast and into impound to get cooled off. After that the scale log is checked against the GCR for legality. In almost all cases the tech card has the checked weight before you enter impound. Chief of tech does that while we all get to play on track. It helps the workers and has no downside so what is the big deal? Home depot even sells numbers for mailboxes that stick easily to a side window.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Here in Cal Club tech we view a competitor's weight as a private matter.

Can you help me understand why you view it as a private matter? If you are weighing cars for compliance, to me, it should be VERY public.

[Gregg]

If you are weighing cars for compliance, to me, it should be VERY public.Exactly. At WDCR events we do turn off the display that's visible to the driver when rolling over after a race. That's more of a precaution so that the driver doesn't summon his crew and have some additional ballast dumped into the car prior to being rolled back over the scales.

[titanium]

Home depot even sells numbers for mailboxes that stick easily to a side window.

That's exactly what I did for my car at the Sebring Nationals.
Both sides.
After applying all 4 numbers side-by-side, I rounded-off the corners with a razor to give a more 'finished' appearance. (Less 'mailboxy')

[Z3_GoCar]

James,

Since I'll be working Tech this weekend at Cal Speedway, please put the weight on both sides of the car. Doesn't need to be anything big or special, just make it so one of us can see it and yell it through the window to Greg. I think we are making stickers to give out to the car owners so that will be the easiest and cheapest solution. I'm not sure if we'll have them for this weekend.

The stickers from the Runoffs are great.

John,

You won't have to worry about me, I'm still waiting on my replacement Drive-Away protection emulator. Litterally it's on a slow boat from China.

[JS154]

James,

The stickers from the Runoffs are great.

yeah they sure are - I'm planning on leaving mine on.

[StephenB]

yeah they sure are - I'm planning on leaving mine on.

Pic?

[Matt Rowe]

Exactly. At WDCR events we do turn off the display that's visible to the driver when rolling over after a race. That's more of a precaution so that the driver doesn't summon his crew and have some additional ballast dumped into the car prior to being rolled back over the scales.

That still has never made sense to me. The tech shed is a physical building and a controlled space so there should be no crew there to add ballast. As the driver I want to see the same data that the tech crew is seeing to determine my legality. It just removes another potential source of protest in my humble opinion.

[Gregg]

My point being that as soon as you roll out of that building into that immense :rolleyes: SPR impound area, which is not 100% under the watchful eye of the inspectors, something that weighs a few pounds (large buckets of water/ice, tools, etc) could find its way into the car before its pulled back into the shed and across the scales.

I've seen that attempted in a few places (like VIR).

[Greg Amy]

Pic?

All cars, during initial tech inspection, have to demonstrate where in the GCR their official weight is, and it's written on that event sticker:


http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb345/GregAmy99/Temp/IMG_0089.jpg

[jhooten]

Jerry, while you mention our weights are on the stickers.. For a SowDiv race, would that be considered sufficient to meet this rule from your tech perspective? .

Unless we start putting the tech stickers next to the class designator the tech sticker would not meet the rules requirement.

[jhooten]

Seeing as how this is an IT site, those issues are for you and your competitors to work out! I make it a point to know who I am running against.



So I am hallucinating when I see the section labeled SUPER TOURING on the board index then?

[Greg Amy]

So I am hallucinating when I see the section labeled SUPER TOURING on the board index then?
This forum is, first and foremost, Improved Touring. Super Touring is "just being given a place to play, with no guarantee of competitiveness...."

:)

[Continuum]

http://www.lellaautosport.com/minimum_weight_decal.html

Perfect. Thank you Sandro!

For what it is worth to the broader discussion. I am going to put it near my class stickers on both sides. If I can help the techs out and get out of impound quicker on those 100+F days I am happy to do it.


jason

[tdw6974]

Having Spent several years in Tech I have one comment for Greg AMEN

[Andy Bettencourt]

So I am hallucinating when I see the section labeled SUPER TOURING on the board index then?
Nope, but you ain't in the ST sub-section my friend. '

[jhooten]

I know when I'm not welcome.
Sorry to bother you.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I know when I'm not welcome.
Sorry to bother you.

Seriously? I was just pointing out that the question isn't really germane to this site unless you are talking to the 'experts' in the sub-forum. No need to take your ball and go home, we just can't help you with those questions unless you are asking in the right spot. Come down off the ledge! :)

[tdw6974]

We used zazzle.com as source for decals. You can customize your decal to match your car color tastes etc. Inexpensive,good quality, and quick shipment. Disclaimer "no affliation with zazzle other than being a customer!":D

[jhooten]

Seriously? I was just pointing out that the question isn't really germane to this site unless you are talking to the 'experts' in the sub-forum. No need to take your ball and go home, we just can't help you with those questions unless you are asking in the right spot. Come down off the ledge! :)


It was a rhetorical question in response to the ongoing discussion concerning whether the proper weight had been posted on the car. Which you chose to nit-pick, totally ignoring the main point made in the following statement.

[betamotorsports]

Can you help me understand why you view it as a private matter? If you are weighing cars for compliance, to me, it should be VERY public.

Weight compliance is a pass/fail item - there's no gray area. Tech does not care what the vehicle weight is unless its non-compliant. We also feel that what a competitor's car weighs is a competitive secret and its not up to us to disclose that information. Most IT competitors joke about their car weights complaining how heavy the car is or how heavy they are personally. That's fine with us, but we do not presume to start that discussion.

[jjjanos]

But that doesn't mean that Tech is going to take your word for it; no way. They'll still take the time AFTER to look up your weight and verify that you put the right numbers on the side of the car, and if you didn't, they'll toss you for the violation.So, in other words, the rule serves no purpose as Tech still is going to look through the book for the weight of the car.

[Greg Amy]

So, in other words, the rule serves no purpose as Tech still is going to look through the book for the weight of the car.
Correct, but they don't have to do it while you're sitting right there, taking up space on the scales and they have a line of 6 other race classes that all need to be weighed.

Trust, but verify.

Can't imagine why this is causing so much bitching. This is just the stupidest thing to get all bent out of shape about...it's not like us wankers need to save valuable advertising space on the side of our car or anything...

GA

[jjjanos]

Correct, but they don't have to do it while you're sitting right there, taking up space on the scales and they have a line of 6 other race classes that all need to be weighed.

Seriously... how long does it take to look up the frigging weights?


Can't imagine why this is causing so much bitching. This is just the stupidest thing to get all bent out of shape about...it's not like us wankers need to save valuable advertising space on the side of our car or anything...

Cuz it's off-season. Cuz it's another PITA put on the racers. Cuz it's another PITA that seems to be a solution to a non-existing problem.

Do my decals need to carry an unexpired SFI decal too?

[Racerlinn]

<checks calendar>
Yep, it's still winter.

[Greg Amy]

Seriously... how long does it take to look up the frigging weights?
I'll chalk you up in the column of "I've never volunteered to work the scales at tech while 6+ classes of 3+ cars each are all standing out in the hot sun/cold rain waiting to be paraded across the scales while some guy flips through the outdated paper copy of the GCR trying to find MY car, in MY class, and trying to get from me the chassis, car, engine installed, number of gears, suspension mods, blah, blah, blah."

Try it sometime, you'll like it.

Conversely, we can do it just like we do at the Runoffs: instead of doing all the work in arrears, we can stand in the pre-tech line with our helmets waiting for our tech approval sticker, while debating with the tech inspector what page in the GCR you are to find OUR car, in OUR class, and trying to get from me the chassis, car, engine installed, number of gears, suspension mods, blah, blah, blah. Or, even better, we can wait in line behind the guy in front of us that's doing the same thing for HIS car.

Or we can put a little piece of vinyl on our car with that info (or, if that's a bit too steep an investment, put a piece of duct tape and "write" the number on the duct tape. Your call.)

<still shaking head...>

GA

[lateapex911]

Seriously... how long does it take to look up the frigging weights?




Jjjjjanos, carrying dickish behavior to ever new heights. This is a record, even for you.

yes, YOU don't see a problem, but then you are one of the more centric guys out there.

Now if you were actually working tech, trying to get racers in and out quickly, for their benefit*, maybe you could see the reason.
But we know you aren't in tech, so you won't.

*And the benefit of many others, because at some tracks, paddock space is limited, and there isn't an aircraft carrier deck sized space to line up 40 cars waiting to be weighed, so all the cars get stacked up clogging traffic, etc.
And before you whine that they shouldn't weigh 40 cars, bla bla bla, I'll go on record as saying Id LOVE it if tech was more assertive in weighing everybody, and making everyone open hoods, etc.

[jjjanos]

I'll chalk you up in the column of "I've never volunteered to work the scales at tech while 6+ classes of 3+ cars each are all standing out in the hot sun/cold rain waiting to be paraded across the scales while some guy flips through the outdated paper copy of the GCR trying to find MY car, in MY class, and trying to get from me the chassis, car, engine installed, number of gears, suspension mods, blah, blah, blah."

Lots of phale there.
Paper copy -- though even in that case finding a car is a 3-second ordeal. More important... why isn't registration automatically generating a sheet for tech with the legal weight for that configuration of this car in the class? I know that when I register I have to give the legal weight of my car.

As for # fo gears, engine installed, suspension mods, blah.... where's the check to keep me from putting a low-ball weight on the car? Neither tech nor my competition is going to know # of gears, suspension mods, blah.

This sounds like SCCA grabbing a machete when a paring knife was needed -- the different mods, prep-levels ad nauseum are a GT/Prod/ST problem.


Try it sometime, you'll like it. Thanks, I did my duty flagging.


Conversely, we can do it just like we do at the Runoffs: instead of doing all the work in arrears, we can stand in the pre-tech line with our helmets waiting for our tech approval sticker, while debating with the tech inspector what page in the GCR you are to find OUR car, in OUR class, and trying to get from me the chassis, car, engine installed, number of gears, suspension mods, blah, blah, blah. Or, even better, we can wait in line behind the guy in front of us that's doing the same thing for HIS car.

Or the numbers can be entered during the registration process which then generates the list for tech.... Still doesn't do squat about mods though.

[Greg Amy]

Yes, I know trying to logically argue with him is silly, I just want everyone else to understand how silly he really looks.


...why isn't registration automatically generating a sheet for tech with the legal weight for that configuration of this car in the class?
To what end? So Tech has to flip through 250 8-1/2x11 sheets of paper to find the right car/class for your car, when the number can simply be written on a piece of duct tape on the side of the car?


where's the check to keep me from putting a low-ball weight on the car?Using your same "logic phale", the same check to keep you from low-balling the weight on the registration sheet you want them to create: Jeff Lawton and $25.


Thanks, I did my duty flagging.Good, then you possibly fully understand why we make drivers put numbers and class on the side of the car instead of having flaggers call in "red Miata with the white top and blue paint marks on the LF bumper" and making them look up ID info and report that from either an outdated copy of the GCR or by flipping through 250 8-1/2x11 sheets of paper that registration generated.

Then again, maybe not.

Point is moot: do it if you want to compete; you have no say in the matter. I personally don't care if it annoys you. In fact, I kinda smile when I think it may...

GA

[jjjanos]

Now if you were actually working tech, trying to get racers in and out quickly, for their benefit*, maybe you could see the reason.

Impound lasts 30 minutes n'cest pas? Ain't nobody leaving impound for 30 minutes that goes to impound, even those that go there by mistake.

And let's not forget... why isn't registration automatically generating a sheet for tech with the legal weight for that configuration of this car in the class?

It would have made my life easier as a flagger if they didn't have that stupid white flag rule for the first session of the day (that serves no purpose), but it won't be changed. It would make my life easier as both a flagger and a driver if the stations were all given green flags to indicate where the yellow flag condition ends, but that rule goes no where.


And before you whine that they shouldn't weigh 40 cars, bla bla bla, I'll go on record as saying Id LOVE it if tech was more assertive in weighing everybody, and making everyone open hoods, etc.

I have no problem with a rule requiring impounding every car after every session... though if it's to tasking to spend a few seconds to look up the weight of a car, I would suggest that such a rule also would be too tasking.

[jjjanos]

To what end? So Tech has to flip through 250 8-1/2x11 sheets of paper to find the right car/class for your car, when the number can simply be written on a piece of duct tape on the side of the car?
Run group 1
# Tech sticker Weight
01 2345
1 X 1974
5 X 8765
.
.
.
99 X 5465

<Page Break>

Run group 2
# Tech sticker Weight
0 X 2345
00 X 12125
01 X 2874
1 X 1765
02 3765
.
.
.
99 X 1465

<Page Break>


Using your same "logic phale", the same check to keep you from low-balling the weight on the registration sheet you want them to create: Jeff Lawton and $25.

OK, so we've established that without a protest, tech has no way of knowing whether the weight I've declared is legal if that weight depends upon unseen modifications.

Still sounds like this isn't an IT problem and lies with other classifications that have multiple weights for the same year/car based on prep level.


Point is moot: do it if you want to compete; you have no say in the matter. I personally don't care if it annoys you. In fact, I kinda smile when I think it may...


And there lies the reason why other sanctioning bodies have growing memberships and SCCA is stagnating or dieing.

[Greg Amy]

why isn't registration automatically generating a sheet for tech with the legal weight for that configuration of this car in the class?
Because it's far easier and more efficient to have drivers put a piece of duct tape on the side of their car and use a Sharpie to write their weight on it. And it only has to be done one time instead of every event. And it saves trees, under which American children can play. If you don't like America and/or you hate children, then I guess that's between you and your Maker, but personally I like both America and children;after all, children are our future and America is where I live ("f**K yeah!")

So I, as an American patriot who loves children, am pretty ok with the "duct tape and Sharpie" option.


And there lies the reason why other sanctioning bodies have growing memberships and SCCA is stagnating or dieing.I suggest if someone is avoiding SCCA because they can't afford 12 inches of duct tape and a Sharpie, they probably weren't a strong member/competitor to begin with... - GA

[jjjanos]

So I, as an American patriot who loves children, am pretty ok with the "duct tape and Sharpie" option.

I love America. Growing trees keeps agriculture majors employed. Cutting down trees keeps lumber jacks employed. Processing wood into paper keeps papersmiths in employed. Shipping that paper from factory to warehouse keeps teamsters employed. Moving the pallets from semitruck to warehouse and to a stake truck keeps high school-educated people employed. Stocking the shelves of the office store and running the register keeps more of the same employed. Keeping those people employed allows them to pay for their kids college. These are all shovel ready jobs.

A sharpie on the side of the car employs far fewer people.


I suggest if someone is avoiding SCCA because they can't afford 12 inches of duct tape and a Sharpie, they probably weren't a strong member/competitor to begin with... - GA

Point............................................. .........................................> You.

The failure to consider the impact on the paying custome is the problem. Yep, this is a minor thing... a death by a thousand cuts.

[Greg Amy]

A sharpie on the side of the car employs far fewer people.
I think you greatly misunderestimate the contribution that duct tape and Sharpies make to America...nay, the world itself! Why, without duct tape, we'd not even gotten to the moon! And there are many, many, many American families that owe their safety and qualify of life to the taxes provided by the hard-working souls of the American factories producing truly, made-in-the-USA yet globally-sold American icon products like the Sharpie...

Hey, you know, just sayin', man.

GA

[dickita15]

One factor that IT guys miss is that in many classes there are various weights that a car can run depending on tranny, heads or wheel size. By having the weight on the car your competitor who is more likely to know your configuration than a tech inspector can see if you are declaring a legitimate weight. The first two times this was proposed the requirements were a bit overbearing but the way this rule is written it is pretty darn simple to comply with.

[jjjanos]

I think you greatly misunderestimate the contribution that duct tape and Sharpies make to America...nay, the world itself!GA

I was not making a comment on the contributions of either Sharpies or duct tape to America. Without the former, finding a passed-out roommate would be wasted. Without the latter, child care would be far more tasking. It simply was a comment on the total employment generated through the two methods. The Sharpie/duct tape approach is a single shot as neither the the tape or the Sharpie-written weight will ever fade. The paper approach generates green (what could be more green than working with trees?) jobs for years.

[Z3_GoCar]

One factor that IT guys miss is that in many classes there are various weights that a car can run depending on tranny, heads or wheel size. By having the weight on the car your competitor who is more likely to know your configuration than a tech inspector can see if you are declaring a legitimate weight. The first two times this was proposed the requirements were a bit overbearing but the way this rule is written it is pretty darn simple to comply with.

Greg, I'd recommend you read the rule and tell me where it says that I have put this seemingly random number on both sides of my car, and why something that's "visable" throught both the windshield and the passenger window won't do?

[lateapex911]

Impound lasts 30 minutes n'cest pas? Ain't nobody leaving impound for 30 minutes that goes to impound, even those that go there by mistake.





Remember the part of my post about paddock sizes?? Stretch the brain a bit. Cars go from in front of the scales, all lined up 40 deep, to a parc ferme area. Getting them THROUGH the scales faster, means the tiny clustered paddock area in front of the scales has cars disappear faster, resulting in less traffic jams and congestion.
I can see this rule having an IMMEDIATE affect on certain tracks.

I don't see why all the whining. The sky may be falling in other areas of the club, but it's fine here. Really.

[Dave Gomberg]

Greg, I'd recommend you read the rule and tell me where it says that I have put this seemingly random number on both sides of my car, and why something that's "visable" throught both the windshield and the passenger window won't do?
You are correct n both counts - maybe. If you always run at a single track or if all the tracks you run at have the inspectors on the same side of the car, then you can satisfy the rule with the weight displayed on only one side. As for putting the weight on a window, that will work - in many cases - as long as it is easy for the tech person to locate and read. But, you would be derailing the train if they have to hunt and use binoculars.

Dave

[jjjanos]

Remember the part of my post about paddock sizes?? Stretch the brain a bit. Cars go from in front of the scales, all lined up 40 deep, to a parc ferme area. Getting them THROUGH the scales faster, means the tiny clustered paddock area in front of the scales has cars disappear faster, resulting in less traffic jams and congestion.
I can see this rule having an IMMEDIATE affect on certain tracks.

Like I said... the time to find the weight of an IT car via the paper method is a few seconds. 40 cars x 8 seconds = 6:20 to weigh all the cars, except the lead car is coming off the track 90 seconds before the last car, so the delay is less than 5 minutes. Plus, all you need is the initial weigh and then you have 30 minutes to check the correct weight.

Cars are in parc ferme, correct? I run the car over the scale as I enter impound or 22 minutes later, both are equally valid weights since the car is in parc ferme. Worried about the driver gaining weight in the interval? Already exists -- cuz I'm going to demand another weighing and I bet so will the Stewards... especially if neither I or my crew got to see the weight on the scale (E.g. Summit Point which hides it and anywhere that doesn't have the electronic display for the driver to see).


I don't see why all the whining. The sky may be falling in other areas of the club, but it's fine here. Really.

Like I said.... death by small cuts. It's just one more PITA.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's just one more PITA.

If you consider putting 2 new decals on your car for the sole purpose of making a group of volunteers job easier a PITA, then you don't care much, if at all. Success in this sport is largely the 'details'. This is a one-time, easy-to-do, 'detail' that helps us all.

:rolleyes:

[JohnW8]

On the topic of post event weighing... since we combine the car and driver weight why do we have to be weighed separately?

And does anyone know where I can get some FIA/SFi 38.1 spec duct tape? I can only afford 12" so can I split the piece into 2 6" pieces?
:(

[JoshS]

On the topic of post event weighing... since we combine the car and driver weight why do we have to be weighed separately?

You don't have to be weighed separately. If your region weighs you separately, then you should ask your region why.

[JeffYoung]

We do it (weigh separately) at two tracks and the reason is pretty clear -- the scales at those tracks only weigh one axle at a time, so the procedure is front axle, rear axle, driver.

[Chip42]

The GCR spells it out like Jeff said - 5.9.4.B "If all 4 wheels cannot be weighed simultaneously, the driver must be weighed separately from the car."

I think this comes from formula and other light weight cars where the driver can "add" weight to the front by leaning forward and then to the rear by sitting back into the seat and pulling in his legs. with all of the controlled chaos that is post race impound, this would be hard to notice in many cars.

note that this is only for official weights, the scales are open throughout the weekend for drivers to come across and get their corner weights.

as for the weight stickers - I love the idea. perfect? no. helpful? yes. and it promotes honesty in the classes where there are configuration weights (especially ST, Prod, GT). I actually see no negative to this.

[StephenB]

Greg, Thanks for posting up some pics of some ideas. I found it helpfull and I am sure the OP did since that is what he was looking for.

As for everyone complaining... really? WOW. get out and SKI!!!
If you really can't afford them send me a PM and I will send some to you. I even have a few colors of vinyl you can pick from!

PS: I DO THINK this is a GREAT idea for those classes with multiple weights. As stated above it allows all competitors to see what the driver THINKS he or she should be at and allows the competitors to agree or disagree long before the car even hits the scales in impound. Very smart move as we add these more complicated classes. AS another poster stated for IT it isn't really a big deal since we can look it up pretty quickly in the GCR, however I am all for consistancy within SCCA when it comes to a simple rule like this.

[CRallo]

andy, you are probably one of the few people who knows the weights of all the cars in ita. The only weight i know in ita is the miata. I would have no clue what the tegs are, what the crxs are. I bet besides you, without looking it up, there is no one who knows the weight of the saturn sc. How about the weight of the saturn sl?

Again, are you gonna be chacking everyone's weights at the end of a race?

2330/2360

[JLawton]

2330/2360


Dude, you need to get a social life!!! LOL :lol:

[Rabbit05]

http://www.javelinamx.com/javhome/race/mata02.jpg



I think we ought to start put the CI on the hoods to now..or CC's...Why not.... right ? Its only another 5-10 bucks right ? ...and now that we have a set system for classing cars everyone can see if that car is classed properly or the competitor is within the rule set.

You should know the weight of your car, tell the scale guy and be done with it. I mean really ?? This isn't the Runoffs its a bunch of Guys/Girls getting together and having fun at the track on the weekends..I understand its point for like the Prod guys and the such and its easier ...but come on really ?


Sorry I agree with JJJ about the death by 1000 cuts or the straw that broke the camels back...the SCCA has been a real turn off for me this year..mostly its my personal situation..but I now need a H&NR , a new Helmet , window net , the usual maintenance on the car ..the entry fees aren't getting any lower..and now I got to find a spot on my car ..(which I care how my car looks ) for the weight of my car...which ,oh yeah, is still not correct..:(

Audi Coupe : 110 hp = 2500 #

And to top it off my car still runs like a bag of smashed assholes...

This isn't fun anymore...

-John

[RacerBill]

http://www.javelinamx.com/javhome/race/mata02.jpg



Sorry I agree with JJJ about the death by 1000 cuts or the straw that broke the camels back...the SCCA has been a real turn off for me this year..mostly its my personal situation..but I now need a H&NR , a new Helmet , window net , the usual maintenance on the car ..the entry fees aren't getting any lower..and now I got to find a spot on my car....

-John

not to mention the increase in competition license fees!

[Matt93SE]

A sharpie on the side of the car employs far fewer people.

I beg to differ. Sharpies and Duct tape are both made from petroleum products, among many other things. The petroleum industry employs 200,000 people in the Gulf of Mexico area alone. (I'm sitting on an oil rig in the middle of that swamp right now, BTW.)

So keep leaving the lids off your Sharpies and replace that 12" strip of duct tape every race. Thousands of rednecks and coonasses are relying on you! :p

[JohnW8]

We do it (weigh separately) at two tracks and the reason is pretty clear -- the scales at those tracks only weigh one axle at a time, so the procedure is front axle, rear axle, driver.

Well that makes sense. I forgot about the single axle scales.

Thanks.

[jjjanos]

If you consider putting 2 new decals on your car for the sole purpose of making a group of volunteers job easier a PITA, then you don't care much, if at all. Success in this sport is largely the 'details'. This is a one-time, easy-to-do, 'detail' that helps us all.

Helps us all? Hardly.

On most weekends what the hell does tech have to do other than weigh the cars and watch for 30 minutes to expire? It's basically the one thing they do on a regular basis.

But, I'll turn a new leaf and think of the children. You know, actually having impound is pretty tasking on tech, so we'll eliminate weighing the cars entirely -- that's pretty much all they do at impound. That's make it much easier on a group of volunteers. We're self-policing correct? You think someone is underweight, throw paper at them.

That pesky annual tech thing is pretty difficult too - what with looking for expiration dates and checking suits for holes and what not...so what we'll do is require drivers to bring in a signed-notarized statement that attests to their equipment being in compliance with the current SCCA rules. Show the paper at registration, get your tech sticker. Given the number roll bar and belt mounting violations I've seen on cars that passed annual tech, it should lower SCCA's liability too -- a win-win. They won't have that pesky problem of having said the main hoop consisting of two welded tubes having been approved by SCCA and I've never seen any driver need to climb into the car and wear the safety harness to show it's in compliance with where it will be worn.

It's another minor annoyance in a sanctioning body that is full of annoyances.

[betamotorsports]

Helps us all? Hardly.

On most weekends what the hell does tech have to do other than weigh the cars and watch for 30 minutes to expire? It's basically the one thing they do on a regular basis.

But, I'll turn a new leaf and think of the children. You know, actually having impound is pretty tasking on tech, so we'll eliminate weighing the cars entirely -- that's pretty much all they do at impound. That's make it much easier on a group of volunteers. We're self-policing correct? You think someone is underweight, throw paper at them.

That pesky annual tech thing is pretty difficult too - what with looking for expiration dates and checking suits for holes and what not...so what we'll do is require drivers to bring in a signed-notarized statement that attests to their equipment being in compliance with the current SCCA rules. Show the paper at registration, get your tech sticker. Given the number roll bar and belt mounting violations I've seen on cars that passed annual tech, it should lower SCCA's liability too -- a win-win. They won't have that pesky problem of having said the main hoop consisting of two welded tubes having been approved by SCCA and I've never seen any driver need to climb into the car and wear the safety harness to show it's in compliance with where it will be worn.

It's another minor annoyance in a sanctioning body that is full of annoyances.

Wow! You really have no frickin' clue. Work Tech one weekend and educate yourself. Just a couple notes:

1. It takes about 2 minutes to weigh each car from rolling it on the scale (for each axle) and then weighing the driver separate (per the GCR). We have to weigh the top 3 cars in each class and the stewards often ask us to weigh one or two other back markers in each class. Typically its 8 to 10 cars per run group. At least once during the day the stewards ask us to weight all of one class (SRF, Spec Miata, etc.)

2. A proper annual for a car that already has a log book takes 15 minutes if everything is correct. We do take the time and check roll cage numbers, belt expiration, fuel test ports, fuel cell certification, kill switch, etc. If its a new car that initial inspection takes at least an hour. We will probably have three or four brand new cars this weekend.

Please don't underestimate the work the Tech volunteers do. Please go work the Tech trailer one weekend.

[jjjanos]

1. It takes about 2 minutes to weigh each car from rolling it on the scale (for each axle) and then weighing the driver separate (per the GCR). We have to weigh the top 3 cars in each class and the stewards often ask us to weigh one or two other back markers in each class. Typically its 8 to 10 cars per run group. At least once during the day the stewards ask us to weight all of one class (SRF, Spec Miata, etc.)

So there's plenty of time to look up the cars' weight?

[EV]

So there's plenty of time to look up the cars' weight?
For them, but not for everyone.

The DC region has a proper whole car scale. Sub 15 seconds to weigh.

JJ, you need to take a chill pill. This isn't onerous and it helps a worker. Get off your high horse, remove your head from your sphincter, and get over it. IMHO, you buddy are the reason SCCA is dying a slow death. Who the F wants to come play on your sandbox? I know I don't....

[ajmr2]

I have to say, some guys are spending way more time complaining about it than it does to stick the numbers on the car. Anything that helps move tech along is OK by me. I don't get it! Maybe it's got something to do with the mid winter miss my buddies and the action on the track blues, but really!

:dead_horse:

[lateapex911]

Man, as a driver, this is embarrassing. I HOPE Jjjj isn't typical of the average driver, because the volunteers who come in here and read this will think we are all a bunch of pompous know it all selfish pricks.

Jeez you complainers, REALLY!?!?!?!
Put the fuckin stickers on the car and shut the hell up!
The tech guys get there first thing in the morning, and are the last to leave. If you think they just sit around all day, shut the hell up and actually work some spring day in tech. I am sure you will learn something if you have the capacity to have an open mind.

And even IF they sat around eating bon bons like the local cops at a dunkin donuts all day, they're serving US, the drivers, for free, so spend the $10 bucks (jjjjjj, aren't you a freakin lawyer or somebody who works some legal beagle job? yea yea, I know, it doesn't matter what you make, it's about the 'principle") and put a couple stickers on the car~

John, "Now I've got to find room on my car"? Really? You can't find 20 sq inches?????? You know how ridiculous that sounds? Sorry, I have respect for you and how you race, etc, but, re read that post of yours. It's not SCCAs fault your car runs like shit. Some of us (ITAC) volunteers fought until we were told to leave by the CRB to get your cars (and others in ITB (and ITA, etc) weights correct*. I've personally spent DAYS of my life on con calls, calling shops, and doing research about ITB. Do me a favor...don't thank me personally...thank me by treating volunteers who have a simple request well, and not making an embarrassing stink about it, l?
Nothings perfect. Volunteers are helping you and I race. If we're going to complain about putting a 5" sticker on the car, I shudder to think of what we must be like to our wives and girlfriends and family.

*I'm no longer on the ITAC, because I was pushed into resigning over an issue fighting the CRB over ITB issues. Sorry your car isn't at the weight you prefer or think is correct.

[Z3_GoCar]

My point is visable=/=side of car. If it's suposed to be on the side of the car then that's what the rule should say. But it doesn't, it leaves it up to the car owner to place it some place visable. Also, as a corner worker I don't like to see additional numbers on the side, it's more likely to result in a wrong call. We're out there just as early/late as the tech team, and unlike them can't wonder about during our break. So, why would you want to piss us off by putting extra numbers on the side of your car?

[Matt93SE]

So there's plenty of time to look up the cars' weight?

I dunno.. how much time do you have?
In SwDiv small bore, we have 7 national classes on the track at once. with regionals, we have 10 classes. usually the national classes have at least 3 each, and ITA has 3, with ITB having 1 or 2(haven't seen an ITC car here lately.)
So that puts tech pushing 26 cars over the scales, then going back and checking off their other items too.

quite often, I'll take lunch by our tech shed since they're busy working the group 1 cars through and don't have a chance to eat lunch. In the hot TX summers, usually tech is just as drenched in sweat as I am after a 40 minute race in 105+heat... And they don't get cool suits.

As has been mentioned, why don't you spend a day or ten in the tech shed and help out? I'm sure they'll be happy to have someone help them push 100 cars over the ramps each day. Maybe gaining a little perspective on the situation will allow you to take less of a sourpuss view on the people that are working for free so you can race. :D


We're out there just as early/late as the tech team, and unlike them can't wonder about during our break. So, why would you want to piss us off by putting extra numbers on the side of your car?
I dunno.. usually I get my "wondering" done during breaks by walking my section the track to look for debris.

.......If you get distracted by a 2" number next to a 12" number going by at 100mph, then by golly, you've got a helluva lot more time to look at a car than I do!

[Tom Donnelly]

This is a joke thread, right? About stickers?

Because I don't see whats so bad about a sticker to display the weight.

Its a sticker!!!!!

I've been in that line to the scales at tech in July after a race. Not only do I get handed a cold water bottle, they give out ice cold towels as well. I want that line to move as fast as possible. And all they want is a sticker. I already have to change contingency stickers all the time, what's one more?

Just my 2 cents.

[betamotorsports]

We got a lot of crap at Tech when the Safe Racer National stickers were required. And we gave those away for free. Its in the nature of drivers to complain.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We got a lot of crap at Tech when the Safe Racer National stickers were required. And we gave those away for free. Its in the nature of drivers to complain.

That was because of the 'I don't want to advertise anyone who I am not getting something from directly" mentality.

This thread is a joke. If it really chaps your ass that you have to put your minimum weight on the side of your car, then take the season off and find something less stressful, like mowing the lawn. #peoplewhoaren'thappyunlesstheyareunhappy

[JeffYoung]

Some people would argue with a supermodel about to give them a blowjob.


That was because of the 'I don't want to advertise anyone who I am not getting something from directly" mentality.

This thread is a joke. If it really chaps your ass that you have to put your minimum weight on the side of your car, then take the season off and find something less stressful, like mowing the lawn. #peoplewhoaren'thappyunlesstheyareunhappy

[jjjanos]

For them, but not for everyone.

The DC region has a proper whole car scale. Sub 15 seconds to weigh.

And I bet they have a piece of paper that gives them the weight on my car that I've already entered in the automated registration system.


JJ, you need to take a chill pill. This isn't onerous and it helps a worker.

I've already said I'll think of the children -- eliminate impound entirely. That will help the tech workers a hell of alot more wouldn't you say? Think someone is underweight, then throw paper like you need to do on everything else.

And while this isn't onerous. Neither was that, or that other thing over there or that do-hickey over on the other side or.... add a bunch of small things, none of which is a major PITA and you know what you get? Something that in aggregate becomes a major PITA.


I dunno.. how much time do you have?
In SwDiv small bore, we have 7 national classes on the track at once. with regionals, we have 10 classes. usually the national classes have at least 3 each, and ITA has 3, with ITB having 1 or 2(haven't seen an ITC car here lately.)
So that puts tech pushing 26 cars over the scales, then going back and checking off their other items too.

I think you would be hard-pressed to find an event in SWDiv where, other than an impound all, you would have 26 cars in impound at once. And if this is a problem for your region then address it in your region's supplemental regs, not the GCR or get a set of scales that lets the car drive on/off the scales.


Maybe gaining a little perspective on the situation will allow you to take less of a sourpuss view on the people that are working for free so you can race.

First, eliminate the GCR-required impound entirely if weighing cars is too difficult or it is too hot. Think someone is cheating, then we are a self-policing organization -- throw paper.

Second, no, they don't do work for free so that anyone can race. The only thing you need to have a race is 2 race cars and 2 drivers.

Everything else is not required. These other things make it safer or reduces cheating or makes the racing more interesting or smooths some process but they aren't required. Most of us are very happy to have the things done by the vols, but when push comes to shove, those things aren't required. Half the flag stations unstaffed and the rest understaffed? We'll get in our cars and we'll race. Why? Because we're there to race and we've all been out on test days when there were even fewer people out on the stations.

Maybe we (SCCA) need to remember that all you need to have a race are the cars, especially since other sanctioning bodies are starting to kick our ass because they offer less hassle, less red tape and a better value for the money.

[ajmr2]

Some people would argue with a supermodel about to give them a blowjob.

:happy204:

[betamotorsports]

Some people would argue with a supermodel about to give them a blowjob.

I would have a problem with a male supermodel... not that there's anything wrong with that. :-)

[Matt93SE]

Since we're already in the gutter... Maybe we should all chip in and buy jjjjjjjanus a BJ.. might cheer him up a bit. ;)


And yes, there are quite often 20+ cars in impound in SWDiv. we regularly have 30+ car fields in SM, SRF, and small bore.. We have a few more people than just three redneck cousins named Darrell holding each others' beer while the other one is making laps in the tow truck. :P

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[mossaidis]

ah... hm... gez...um...

We are trying to make things easier with what we have and improve what we have.

Speaking of easier, can you jjjanos place a signature at the bottom of your posts? something like (I *think* this is accurate...):

Jeff Janoska
#20 ITX Honda CRX XX
XXX region

I always forget who the heck you are since we have never met and, if we did, we would not introduce ourselves with our IT.com alias name. I literally spent 30 minutes searching jjjanos on the internet trying to find out who you are. It was a comprehensive result set as I found out what other forums you author on, entire threads dedicated on your behalf (sometimes ones there just to berate you), your birthdate, your home address, photos of "Smurf damage" on your #20 blue CRX (bummer dude), your laptimes on mylaps.com, etc. Yet, it would have been more "efficient" for you to place some information in your sig. Lack there of, I will now remember to wish you a happy 46th birthday next month.

^ take this and apply it here ...

It's your right to protest other cars. it's tech's job to weigh them so the rest of us don't have to. Why? All men are evil, in our case, we use weights to one degree or another to create some level of equity, ppl are sometimes unfairly competitive and I don't have a set of scales nor do I want to lug around a set around the paddock. Just sleep on that... please dream about...efficiency...

You definitely have a unique persceptive on many issues. Though thought provoking, we need to work together on a lot of issues. This is NOT worth the forum member's effort IMO. Let it go...

Does the rule need some clarification? Not in sprint - use good judgement, well I guess there the problem lies. If inclined, I suggest writing a letter to the CRB if you want them to be more specific in the GCR or at least provide some "examples". :) or in Jeff Janoska's case a letter to the CRB disapproving the rule.

Is it a good rule? I think so. (+1) for me, it's a no brainer. Should SCCA be a lean running machine? Yes. Are there lessons we can learn from other orgnizations? Yes. So, let's work on that AND keep our currect shop running as best as it can be.

I too think we have some bigger fish to fry. Think equity for ITB!!! Think continued classification of more modern IT cars (the next 5-10 years will continue to bring challenges to ITAC, i.e. direct injection, more turbo's, hybrids (?), diesels, higher hp sports cars, etc).

[jumbojimbo]

Like I said.... death by small cuts. It's just one more PITA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxPLws7PCo&feature=player_detailpage#t=193s

[jhooten]

I think you would be hard-pressed to find an event in SWDiv where, other than an impound all, you would have 26 cars in impound at once. And if this is a problem for your region then address it in your region's supplemental regs, not the GCR or get a set of scales that lets the car drive on/off the scales.


Again you think wrong.

Last Rational I had 33 cars in my impound lot for one group.

And no it is not the regions problem. The divisional Executive Steward makes the race groups for all the regions in the division. He will not approve your supps if you do not do it HIS way.

for 2012 the groups are:
Class Groupings for the 2012 Season
Group 1: AS, T1, T2, GT1, GT2, GT3, STO, SSB, GTA*, ITE*, ITR*, ITS*, SP* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_one.html)
Group 2: FA, FB, FC, FE, FM, CSR, DSR, S2, FS*, ASR* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_two.html)
Group 3: SRF (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_three.html)
Group 4: GTL, STU, EP, FP, HP, SSC, T3, ITA*, ITB*, ITC*, SRX7*, BG*, LG*, SPB*, STL* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_four.html)
Group 5: FV, F500, FF, FST*, CF*, F600* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_five.html)
Group 6: SM, SM5* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_six.html)

When SM drivers start acting up HE will put up the IMPOUND ALL board and I will have 50 Miatas sitting in in the lot.

[Rabbit05]

Man, as a driver, this is embarrassing. I HOPE Jjjj isn't typical of the average driver, because the volunteers who come in here and read this will think we are all a bunch of pompous know it all selfish pricks.

Jeez you complainers, REALLY!?!?!?!
Put the fuckin stickers on the car and shut the hell up!
The tech guys get there first thing in the morning, and are the last to leave. If you think they just sit around all day, shut the hell up and actually work some spring day in tech. I am sure you will learn something if you have the capacity to have an open mind.

And even IF they sat around eating bon bons like the local cops at a dunkin donuts all day, they're serving US, the drivers, for free, so spend the $10 bucks (jjjjjj, aren't you a freakin lawyer or somebody who works some legal beagle job? yea yea, I know, it doesn't matter what you make, it's about the 'principle") and put a couple stickers on the car~

John, "Now I've got to find room on my car"? Really? You can't find 20 sq inches?????? You know how ridiculous that sounds? Sorry, I have respect for you and how you race, etc, but, re read that post of yours. It's not SCCAs fault your car runs like shit. Some of us (ITAC) volunteers fought until we were told to leave by the CRB to get your cars (and others in ITB (and ITA, etc) weights correct*. I've personally spent DAYS of my life on con calls, calling shops, and doing research about ITB. Do me a favor...don't thank me personally...thank me by treating volunteers who have a simple request well, and not making an embarrassing stink about it, l?
Nothings perfect. Volunteers are helping you and I race. If we're going to complain about putting a 5" sticker on the car, I shudder to think of what we must be like to our wives and girlfriends and family.

*I'm no longer on the ITAC, because I was pushed into resigning over an issue fighting the CRB over ITB issues. Sorry your car isn't at the weight you prefer or think is correct.


Jake ,
First off thank you for the respect , and right back at you ...:023:

Perhaps I came off in a wrong way ...for me, PERSONALLY, its a culmination of things that has me put off and the reason for my post and what I posted ..should my 5 cylinder heap be an relevant factor for this topic ..nope ..I was venting. I will put a sticker on my car , because the rule state to do so...will I like it ..nope.

Do I want to make the tech VOLUNTEERS work harder? Absolutely Not ... And please make no mistake I am extremely grateful for the work that ALL the SCCA volunteers do .

And I do want to thank you personally for your service on the board ..its got to be a tough gig..and I definitely would not want that job .

And well as far as the Audi weight thing, I have my opinion and others have theirs. I still have numerous factory documents for the stock Audi HP . I have also posted a few pics of said documents. I have been told their is a differing number out there with out solid proof...But this can be discussed in another thread if you like, as this topic has been drawn out in the past.



But, when it come down to it, if you really think that my opinion on the matter is going to change because someone says ...

"shut the fuck up and put the stickers on"

...you are dead wrong my friend.



-John

[Matt93SE]

But, when it come down to it, if you really think that my opinion on the matter is going to change because someone says ...

"shut the fuck up and put the stickers on"

...you are dead wrong my friend.

-John

But it works when I talk to the kids like that! :shrug:

[Andy Bettencourt]

But, when it come down to it, if you really think that my opinion on the matter is going to change because someone says ...

"shut the fuck up and put the stickers on"

...you are dead wrong my friend.



-John

John,

Let's take the issue out of your personal context. What if all your safety equipment was up to date, your car was running strong, and you just came off a NARRC Runoffs win in October....do you still feel the same way about the stickers? The point is that for the effort of a couple pieces of duct tape and a sharpie, we could all comply if we really cared that little.

:)

[Rabbit05]

Andy ,
Nope it isn't that big of a deal ... but like I stated earlier ..its a culmination of things that has moved my opinion in a negative light on this subject.

It's just another SCCA requirement to go and play...:(

And, personally, I really don't like the numbers on the car..I think some one posted a pic earlier in the thread. I will probably put it in the rear window, like a bumper sticker style. Or if permissible on the cage itself.

-John

[jumbojimbo]

It's pretty obvious there are a couple of people who are looking to find fault with SCCA any way they can. They aren't going to be reasonable and if that is how they want to act then it's about time they moved on to NASA Chumpcar or some other greener pasture. I'm not worried about workers seeing this, they know what a bad apple looks like.

:dead_horse:

We're just stroking their egos arguing with them. It's hard to resist though, isn't it?

[Matt93SE]

We're just stroking their egos arguing with them. It's hard to resist though, isn't it?

See post #102. :023:

[JLawton]

Hmmmmm. i hope I wasn't coming across as complaining about putting the numbers on my car. I have no problem with that. I was just wondering how the compliance piece of it was going to work. I have a great deal of respect for what all the volunteers do so i can race.

[lateapex911]

Andy ,
Nope it isn't that big of a deal ... but like I stated earlier ..its a culmination of things that has moved my opinion in a negative light on this subject.

It's just another SCCA requirement to go and play...:(

And, personally, I really don't like the numbers on the car..I think some one posted a pic earlier in the thread. I will probably put it in the rear window, like a bumper sticker style. Or if permissible on the cage itself.

-John
John, I hear you, but we need to step back from our own situations.

I am looking at ditching my Isaac that had the best numbers in the game, and getting something that offers me less protection and is uncomfortable. AND will end up costing me $800, plus a new seat to make up for it's lack of protection that I used to have, for another $1200 or so. (And I'll STILL be less safe, as the egress area I will wind up with is smaller. So that's a lose, lose lose. Dumb.

Also, I've done blown up the mouse wheel that was the power in my car, and they don't make them anymore. So I've got that hurdle.

Plus the helmet is up. Gotta spend for a new one.

So yea, I've got some hurdles....

But I can't blame SCCA for the stupid Head and neck restraint issue. I blame our lame ass legal system, and the racketeers at the SFI. I'm SAD that SCCA has finally sucked up on the deal, but I'm respectful that they resisted for as long as they did.

My engine? My fault, shoulda had spares.

helmet? Again, my fault. Knew it was due soon, should have gotten ahead of the curve so it didn't hit all at once.

But, $5 worth of little stickers I can stick on my window???? A one time expense? Are you kidding? I'm going to get upset about that!?! Plus, it helps my friends Dick and Greg...of course I'll do it.

I gotta isolate and think big picture, IMO.

[jjjanos]

Again you think wrong.

Last Rational I had 33 cars in my impound lot for one group.

And no it is not the regions problem. The divisional Executive Steward makes the race groups for all the regions in the division. He will not approve your supps if you do not do it HIS way.

When SM drivers start acting up HE will put up the IMPOUND ALL board and I will have 50 Miatas sitting in in the lot.

You'll have to excuse me, but I relied on the actual event results, not the reserved numbers.

Exactly how quicker will those "50" Spec Miatas get through the push-on/push-off scales by adding these decals? I can see where cars might get through a drive-on scale quicker, but I don't see much even in that situation.

As for your Exec-- I suggest that he be reminded that all you need for a race is 2 cars and someone to drive them. It's not his job to ensure that things are done his way. It's his job that to ensure that the supps are not inconsistent with the GCR. One of the (many) faults with SCCA is how oftern people carve out personal fiefdoms.

As someone else mentioned, what about the ST classes were the weight is variable depending upon what you did in your build -- details that you might not want your competitors to know?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this is an organization-wide problem and how it helps someone other than the guy who volunteered to do X but not these parts of it.

[TStiles]

Again you think wrong.

Last Rational I had 33 cars in my impound lot for one group.

And no it is not the regions problem. The divisional Executive Steward makes the race groups for all the regions in the division. He will not approve your supps if you do not do it HIS way.

for 2012 the groups are:
Class Groupings for the 2012 Season
Group 1: AS, T1, T2, GT1, GT2, GT3, STO, SSB, GTA*, ITE*, ITR*, ITS*, SP* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_one.html)
Group 2: FA, FB, FC, FE, FM, CSR, DSR, S2, FS*, ASR* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_two.html)
Group 3: SRF (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_three.html)
Group 4: GTL, STU, EP, FP, HP, SSC, T3, ITA*, ITB*, ITC*, SRX7*, BG*, LG*, SPB*, STL* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_four.html)
Group 5: FV, F500, FF, FST*, CF*, F600* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_five.html)
Group 6: SM, SM5* (http://www.sowdivscca.org/numbers/grp_six.html)

When SM drivers start acting up HE will put up the IMPOUND ALL board and I will have 50 Miatas sitting in in the lot.


Please tell me that we're ( SW Division ) just going with our Tech stickers that have the weight on them ?

[ShelbyRacer]

Some people would argue with a supermodel about to give them a blowjob.

I think that's an excellent analogy to this thread in a few ways---

People will talk about it and make it seem like a much bigger deal than it actually was...

OR

A whole lot of excitement in anticipation, but in reality the whole thing is over in 10 seconds.

It is definitely winter.

[seckerich]

I can't seem to find the "ignore self centered prick button today", can anyone find it? :happy204:

[JohnW8]

Done!

[ajmr2]

That's an outrageous imposition? :shrug:

[StephF]

:birra:

I love January.
Now all we need is a good, old fashioned acrimonious how-to-classify-different-cars-for-weight thread, and maybe one about SFI, FIA and general H&NR complaints and comparisons thrown in.
Oh! And don't forget to add one about what donut swilling, parasitic, useless wastes of oxygen all (insert volunteer catagory here) are. That usually gets some good posts.
I guess if you can't go racing, you can sit there and throw stinkbait on the water and watch what hits. I think they call this chumming.

[lateapex911]

Ahh, but Steph, at least a thread about weights can result in something*, and is worth discussing....

*the "process", and Andy's and Darins and my and Kirks and Jeffs involvement would likely have not happened were it not for this place....

[Matt93SE]

You'll have to excuse me, but I relied on the actual event results, not the reserved numbers.

Exactly how quicker will those "50" Spec Miatas get through the push-on/push-off scales by adding these decals? I can see where cars might get through a drive-on scale quicker, but I don't see much even in that situation.


SM isn't the issue. It's getting the alphabet soup groups through.

http://www.sowdivscca.org/raceresults/2011/20111015/Group%205-2%20-%20Race%20-%20Sat.pdf
25 cars in the race. 13 classes. 24 out of that race would have gone to impound, only 3 had the same weight.

There are many Rational races where we have had 40+ starters, but being a Rational, they only sent the national entries to impound and let the regional cars go. had it been a restricted regional, all those 40 cars would have still been on the track at the same time

As for the ST* guys that might have alternate suspension, transmissions, or engines, I don't see any/many of them complaining. (I'm not...) Those classes are the ones that these little stickers are going to help get through impound. This isn't about making people feel good about themselves or be fair, it's about efficiency. This is a very simple task, and you're making it an absolute nightmare.

[Z3_GoCar]

Also, I've done blown up the mouse wheel that was the power in my car, and they don't make them anymore. So I've got that hurdle.


But, $5 worth of little stickers I can stick on my window???? A one time expense? Are you kidding? I'm going to get upset about that!?! Plus, it helps my friends Dick and Greg...of course I'll do it.

I gotta isolate and think big picture, IMO.

Hey Jake, I think ST is calling. Swap a 13B in that puppy add a wing and go racing :D

As for the sticker, the rules say visable, Greg and John say all sides :shrug: If it's suposed to be all sides then why doesn't the rule say that?

[lateapex911]

Hey Jake, I think ST is calling. Swap a 13B in that puppy add a wing and go racing :D

As for the sticker, the rules say visable, Greg and John say all sides :shrug: If it's suposed to be all sides then why doesn't the rule say that?

ST? Not gonna happen in this chassis! It's an old live axle car. STL rules no care about stuff like that, so i'd be stupid to invest a cent for that.
Plus, they don't want rotaries in STL, and the weights are extremely non competitive.
And building that for STU is like throwing money down a dry well when there's a pipeline nearby. Again, wrong chassis, and more mods allowed = more expense.

As for the stickers, who cares what the rule says? it's a request to list your weight so tech can see it easily...I'll parse a performance rule to death to glean an advantage, but this? It's for everyones good, so I'll use my best judgement and try to please Greg and Dick.

[jhooten]

Please tell me that we're ( SW Division ) just going with our Tech stickers that have the weight on them ?


Looking at the new GCR that just made it to the website. the final version of the rule that made it into the GCR appears to me to allow that. The first version I read said 2" numbers next to the class designation. The tech sticker would not have met that requirement.

Let's see what the Houston tech crew does next weekend.

[Matt93SE]

Next weekend, or next race weekend?

The story I heard from Svaton or Rogerson said the SWDiv tech sticker will work for us, unless the tech table is on the other side of the car. (then I'll just put the sticker on the other side! ;) )

[dickita15]

The tech sticker works but then you have to deal with it every weekend. Do your own simple sticker on the car and you are done.

[Matt93SE]

I'll get there eventually. have to get off this oil rig before I can touch the car.

[Greg Amy]

I'll get there eventually. have to get off this oil rig before I can touch the car.
If you find yourself driving through Port Barre, I know someplace you can crash...

GA, amused that this conversation is still going on...

[Matt93SE]

Not far out of my way actually.. It's about 20 mi north of the I-10 hell I'll be driving through.

I'm amazed that after 7 pages of this BS, we're still remotely on the same subject! Wait.. I think tGA and I have just shot that one in the foot.

[Greg Amy]

Family is from Opelousas, my dad lives just off Hwy 190 on Bayou Cortableu. "Rustic" but comfy and plenty of beds (he usually hosts BMW Club bike riders passing through the area). Plenty good places to get good Cajun cooking in Port Barre and area, easy access to Baton Rouge and New Orleans...

[Matt93SE]

If you're into that sort of thing.....
I've just never been able to get into the cajun/NOLA lifestyle.
I guess because most of my experience has dealt with Katrina "refugees" that moved to Houston and trashed the place. Then I come through this state and see the mess they left behind. (There are STILL boats sitting on the side of the highways that were washed up there during Katrina...)

[Greg Amy]

Oh, you'd LOVE sitting down with my dad and a couple cousins and listening to that side of the story and what they saw...safe to say sha, dey raght der wit choo....

[CRallo]

Dude, you need to get a social life!!! LOL :lol:

says he who apparently has nothing better to do than stalk this thread... :p

[betamotorsports]

Hey Jake, I think ST is calling. Swap a 13B in that puppy add a wing and go racing :D

As for the sticker, the rules say visable, Greg and John say all sides :shrug: If it's suposed to be all sides then why doesn't the rule say that?

You can do what the rules says. I just asked that you put two stickers on the car (pass and driver side) so it makes things a bit easier depending on whether we're running CW or CCW at Buttonwillow or other tracks. One sticker is enough to meet the rule requirements and I and the other folks in tech won't complain about it.

[JeffYoung]

I've spent about a week in Gonzalez (close to Port Barre?) and down on the river ove the last 2 months for work (Nucor steel mill going in). Piss poor place, kinda grungy.

FANTASTIC people, FANTASTIC food. The freaking Clarion hotel has some restaurant attached to it that has some of the best food I've had in years.

Cool area.


Oh, you'd LOVE sitting down with my dad and a couple cousins and listening to that side of the story and what they saw...safe to say sha, dey raght der wit choo....

[Greg Amy]

Cool area.
These are not places I'd want to try to make a living, but they are most certainly on my short list of places to live when I'm done working...

[jhooten]

ATTENTION SOWDIV

Consulted with the Divisional Administrator of Tech today at the divisional meeting, Yes the tech sticker will meet the rule requirement.

[Matt93SE]

Thanks for the update, Jerry!

[rcc85]

Since IT cars running in ST go by the IT specs, if I were to double dip in ITC & STU this year, I would use the ITC weight of 2380 lbs, as the weight in both classes, right?

Bob Clifton
#05 ITC Dodge Daytona (even if it still says ITB on the door)

[Matt93SE]

The way I understand it, you would use your IT weight.

[seckerich]

As long as you run 100% IT legal you run that weight. Interchange specs on 1 item you go to STU weight, or do not run if not specifically listed in STU.

[TStiles]

As long as you run 100% IT legal you run that weight. Interchange specs on 1 item you go to STU weight, or do not run if not specifically listed in STU.

Is this applicable in STL as well ?

[Greg Amy]

Any IT-compliant car (even ITR) can compete in STU.

Any IT-compliant car 2L displacement and less can compete in STL.

In either case, you must completely conform to the IT regs, including weight, in which case you must display your IT weight (though you must also display the STU or STL class.) However, if you deviate in any way* from the IT regs, you must completely conform to the STU/L regs, in which case you'll display your STU/L weight.

GA

* A good example: any SM car can also compete in STL. However, we're getting rumors that some 1.8L SMs think it's OK to pull their restrictor plate and still compete in STL as an SM. That is incorrect; to meet the regs to compete in STL as an SM, they must "completely conform...to Spec Miata class specifications". If they happen to otherwise meet the STL specs they're fine, but many do not meet the 5" ride height requirement and many of the allowed SM head mods do not strictly meet the STL regs (as they do not in ITA/S).

[benspeed]

Cmon what happened to the nonsensical bitching about two dollar stickers??? This thread is perfect for winter punishment.

God dammit how can anybody make me put TWO friggin stickers on my million dollar IT car??? The dogcart injustice of the unholy volunteers trying to make life better for TECH????

Im running my crayola tampon sticker right up the car pooper!!! Take that!!!! I bet these assholes even cheer for the communist liberal Patriots - smells like this dictatorship comes from New England or some other smartypants part of Syria or sum tin.......

[Z3_GoCar]

Sorry Ben,

I've got a wire-harness that needs triming, and my concerns were addressed that:

a ) were all reading the same rule

b ) not all of us have acres of sheet metal next to our class designation

Finally, I do have to say I appreicate the job that Chuck, Peggy, John, Ken, and Kevin do at Cal-Club Tech :023: I can go to a shop and pay money for an anual, or I can get it done at Tech for free. As I'm a racer on a budget I go with Tech every time, and truely appreciate their effort.

[betamotorsports]

I think if you go to any of the shops on the Cal Club list a renewal annual is free. At least I don't charge for a renewal and I've done a couple dozen or so over the years (a burger from In-n-Out across the street is appreciated :)). I will charge $40 an hour (half my shop rate) for a new car inspection.

[jhooten]

You charge a club racer labor for a log book issue?

[betamotorsports]

No, Cal Club Tech does not charge competitors for stuff (except some stickers). My company, BetaMotorsports will charge an hourly fee for a new vehicle tech inspection if a competitor brings the car to my shop. I don't charge for a annual renewal. My shop is one of the approved tech shops for Cal Club.