Ducting ...

[FLATKITTY]

9.1.3.D.8.b ... "Openings are permitted for the purposes of ducting air to the brakes, cooler & radiator."

This rule seems singular in what it permits ... "openings" only. And this rule is enclosed w/in a section that applies to front spoilers / air dams only. And while there is a rule dealing w/brake ducting (& driver cooling), I did not see any rule that specifically allows IT competitors to install additional ducting for the radiator &/or oil cooler w/in the confines of the bodywork?

And there is nothing that addresses ducting w/in 9.1.3.D.3.a/b.

What am I not seeing here?

[Andy Bettencourt]

9.1.3.D.8.b ... "Openings are permitted for the purposes of ducting air to the brakes, cooler & radiator."

This rule seems singular in what it permits ... "openings" only. And this rule is enclosed w/in a section that applies to front spoilers / air dams only. And while there is a rule dealing w/brake ducting (& driver cooling), I did not see any rule that specifically allows IT competitors to install additional ducting for the radiator &/or oil cooler w/in the confines of the bodywork?

And there is nothing that addresses ducting w/in 9.1.3.D.3.a/b.

What am I not seeing here?

Most people add their ducting to those items (radiator and/or oil cooler), making sure they are ATTACHED to said items and then they BECOME those items. Meaning 'any radiator meeting X, Y and Z' limitations with ducting attached makes it a complete unit...also understanding that there is no specific rule disallowing the ducting of air to those items.

It's why you see exhaust manifold shields attached to exhaust manifolds, air intake 'boxes' attached to air intakes, etc. (Air intakes are limited to heat shielding because there is a rule that states that all air must be source from the stock location - usually meaning inside the engine bay)

[FLATKITTY]

Thank you for the quick response.


"Most people add their ducting to those items (radiator &/or oil cooler) making sure they are ATTACHED to said items & then they BECOME those items. Meaning 'any radiator meeting X, Y & Z' limitations w/ducting attached makes it a complete unit ..."

But, in the case of the radiator, the attachment points of the ducting are most always on the radiator core support ... NOT the actual radiator.


"... also understanding that there is no specific rule disallowing the ducting of air to those items."

Doesn't that fly in the face of "Modifications shall not be made unless authorized herein."?

Just a little gun shy after seeing some of the conversations on this site dealing w/windshield wiper fluid containers, steering wheel adapters, etc.

Under the heading of "No good deed goes unpunished", :D I would like to ask 2 additional questions: 9.1.3.D.6.b says "Air ducts may be fitted to the brakes, provided that they extend in a forward direction only ..." Why would you NOT have them extending "in a forward direction only"?

And #2: With the recent upgrade of wheel diameters for IT cars, why was the 15" rim singled out for exclusion? This question came to mind while reading Mr. Earp's interesting on-line ITS Mustang buildup.

[Chip42]

someone, sometime, had a reason for the language that is in the brake ducting allowance. and by "attaching" some structure for ducting or insulating of the free component, be it radiator or exhaust component, the added material is considered part of that component and it's open limits, so is allowed where not "actually" allowed, so long as it does not perform a prohibited function.

wheel diameters - the rule allows up to 15" in S-C and 17" in ITR, or the stock wheel diameter, whichever is larger. you may freely fit wheels of smaller diameters. class maximum rim widths must also be followed, regardless of the wheel diameter (6" B&C, 7" S&A, 8.5 in R). not sure about the 15 exclusion you are referring to...

also, reading the rest of the air dam rules, you will see that there are maximum number and hole allowances in the stock body, allowed specifically for the ducting to the brakes, and that the dam may not reduce the opening to the front grille. if you can find a place to add an additional duct opening in your air dam to provide air to a cooler, without reducing the grill opening or cutting holes in the body, you are free to do so.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thank you for the quick response.


"Most people add their ducting to those items (radiator &/or oil cooler) making sure they are ATTACHED to said items & then they BECOME those items. Meaning 'any radiator meeting X, Y & Z' limitations w/ducting attached makes it a complete unit ..."

But, in the case of the radiator, the attachment points of the ducting are most always on the radiator core support ... NOT the actual radiator.

Then, technically, those assemblies are illegal. There is no provision for adding stand-alone ducting like that - but since radiators and oil coolers are essentially open (for the purposes of the rules we are talking about), if they are PART of your 'FlatKitty' branded custom cooler, then that part is a complete unit legal under the rules.



"... also understanding that there is no specific rule disallowing the ducting of air to those items."



Doesn't that fly in the face of "Modifications shall not be made unless authorized herein."

That is a good initial stance to take as that is how the IT rules are build BUT it says you can have ANY radiator (again with limits on holes created, plane of installation, etc) so your radiator WITH ducting is legal because the unit is free. The rule you would fall back to if this were illegal is the 'all legal modifications must not also perform a specifically disallowed function'. Nothing about ducting cool air from the outside to your radiator there....but there IS a rule prohibiting air from outside to the air intake...see how that works?

We refer to it here a lot as the 'if it says you can, then you bloody well can' George R. corollary. "It says I can have any radiator within these parameters, well here is MINE". And as long as it doesn't do anything specifically called out as illegal, you are good to go. But it MUST be attached to the radiator in some way. Bubble gum? Zip tie? Full structural attachment? Up to you and your competitors to decide what you think will pass muster.

[tderonne]

I've never bought the "attached" balogna.

Spiritually, any radiator is any radiator assembly, so some attachment is implied. But to me, it goes no further than the that.

[FLATKITTY]

Chip42: "Wheel diameter - the rule allows up to 15" in S-C & 17" in ITR, or the stock wheel diameter, whichever is larger. ... Not sure about the 15" exclusion you are referring to."

Those ITC thru ITS cars w/an OE rim size of 13" or 14" have a choice of 13" thru 15" tire sizes to pick from. And the ITR class has a choice of 16" or 17" tires to choose from. It just seems as if those (non ITR) cars w/a 15" OE wheel (such as Mr. Earp's Mustang) have been unfairly restricted to a single 15" tire size.

[FLATKITTY]

Chip42: "Someone, sometime, had a reason for the language that is in the brake ducting allowance."

I agree w/what you are saying as every rule has a 'history'. However, w/that said, any rule that has lost its 'history' (or relevance) which you seem to indicate here w/the 'forward facing brake duct' should be reassessed. If it's no longer valid, then delete it.

Rule books are living documents & deletions are just as important as updates to make their reading clear & concise.

Chip42: "And by "attaching" some structure for ducting or insulating of the free component, be it radiator or exhaust component, the added material is considered part of that component & it's open limits, so is allowed where not "actually" allowed, so long as it does not perform a prohibited function."

I am not sure that clarifies anything or not, but I sure as hell am impressed w/the fact you got it all in a single sentence! :D

[FLATKITTY]

tderonne: "I've never bought the "attached" bologna. Spiritually, any radiator is any radiator 'assembly', so some attachment is implied. But, to me, it goes no further than the that."

I agree. It seems as tho 'attachment' has been redefined the same way that Bill Clinton redefined 'sex'. :D However, the good news is that I have some 4' tie wraps for anyone who needs to keep their ducting 'legal'. :023:

[Chip42]

kitty -

sorry if you don't like the wheel rules. they are more open then they had been in that starting 2012, you can run smaller wheels if you want. if your car had a 15 stock in ITS and a 14 fits, go ahead and run a 14 if you want. with open final drives, we feel this rule's effect is small, especially considering general availability of sub-15in tires.

the physics of brake ducting have not changed. whatever the intent of the "forward facing" portion of the rule was, it's still covered. I'm not going to volunteer that I think removing POSSIBLY unneeded language is a good idea. if you think it is, ask. www.crbscca.com

sorry that you don't like the addition of non-prohibited functions to open items. the ship sailed long ago, not really a lot of good getting upset about it. if you think a function that is being exploited should be prohibitted, then click that linke above.

and yeah, I have a tendancy to write long, complicated sentances. It's inherited.