Head and Neck Haters...Watch This

[chuck baader]

Self explanatory:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1753248


Scroll down to video....on third page are pictures of the aftermath. Now, tell me you don't need a H&N device??? Chuck

[Greg Amy]

Haven't watched the video, but can already tell you I don't need an H&NR device.

GA, whose HANS came FLYING out from under the shoulder harnesses after the first hit during a high speed wreck at Watkins Glen, right before hitting the wall two more times. Having to choose between HNR or tight belts when hitting the wall? Priceless.

[pitbull113]

Self explanatory:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1753248


Scroll down to video....on third page are pictures of the aftermath. Now, tell me you don't need a H&N device??? Chuck
:dead_horse:

[LD71]

Haven't watched the video, but can already tell you I don't need an H&NR device.

GA, whose HANS came FLYING out from under the shoulder harnesses after the first hit during a high speed wreck at Watkins Glen, right before hitting the wall two more times. Having to choose between HNR or tight belts when hitting the wall? Priceless.
Greg,
I've always wondered about that, sounds serious in your case---so what will you be doing in 2012 when the rule says H&N mandatory?
LD71 :D

[Greg Amy]

I've always wondered about that, sounds serious in your case---so what will you be doing in 2012 when the rule says H&N mandatory?
Wearing a used HANS*, what else can I do?

* and using Velcro straps across them to keep the belts on.

[jjjanos]

Self explanatory:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1753248


Scroll down to video....on third page are pictures of the aftermath. Now, tell me you don't need a H&N device??? Chuck

I don't need a H&N device.

Neither the video nor the photos demonstrate the need for such a device... i.e. what were the g forces?

Most importanly, even if the video demonstrated the need for a H&N device, it certainly doesn't demonstrate the need for a SFI 38.1 device.

[BruceG]

I don't need a H&N device.

Neither the video nor the photos demonstrate the need for such a device... i.e. what were the g forces?

Most importanly, even if the video demonstrated the need for a H&N device, it certainly doesn't demonstrate the need for a SFI 38.1 device.

My only run in with a wall was during 3 day racing school in a Formula Skip Barber at LRP. went thru 11 too hot, let up on the throttle. hung the tail out(rear engine) and came around. Hit the outside tire wall sideways at 80+. No HANS but my head and neck were ok, despite all the lateral movement. Broke a couple ribs. don't know what would have happened without a H&N if I had hit the tire wall head on...but I guess an OZ of prevention(HANS,ETC) might be worth a LB of cure. Obviously, it didn't help Greg when it failed to work correctly!!

[TStiles]

Haven't watched the video, but can already tell you I don't need an H&NR device.

GA, whose HANS came FLYING out from under the shoulder harnesses after the first hit during a high speed wreck at Watkins Glen, right before hitting the wall two more times. Having to choose between HNR or tight belts when hitting the wall? Priceless.

I've always wondered about that ... My Ultrashield harness has a velcro attachment from shoulder belt to shoulder belt

Think that would prevent the Hans flying out ?

FWIW : I live with neck pain every day that started after a pre HANS crash. In my case the HANS would not have helped ( hard RR impact into concrete wall on an oval ) , but I choose to be as safe as possible for the next time.

[chuck baader]

jjj..The wrecked E30 is a friend of mine. He calculated the G load in excess of 160Gs. The H$N made the wreck survivable....period. If you can't see that I feel sorry for you. Chuck (Someone who has hit/been hit 5 separate impacts while wearing the HANS.)

[Greg Amy]

He calculated the G load in excess of 160Gs.
Bullshit. Simple, outright, unmitigated bullshit.

[jjjanos]

jjj..The wrecked E30 is a friend of mine. He calculated the G load in excess of 160Gs.

He speaks from the dead (http://www.skytran.net/09Safety/10sfty.htm)?


The H made the wreck survivable....period. If you can't see that I feel sorry for you.

What specifically from the video, other than it being a hard hit -- which is not evidence of non H&N survivability --, is evidence that the crash would have been fatal without a H&N? You see what you want to see. If I show a priest a particularly interesting pattern on a loaf of bread, he's going to see Christ. An oven repair technician will see an oven that heats uneven.


Chuck (Someone who has hit/been hit 5 separate impacts while wearing the HANS.)

I had 3 before I got the device I can use for 3 more weeks. After that, nada. Obviously the Isaac is superior to your device as mine actually prevents impacts based on the evidence we both have presented.

[chuck baader]

Ok, Greg....show us your mad math skills. 80mph to stop in about 18" is how many Gs? Copied from another forum:

a=V^2/2d.

a= 5194ft/sec^2. That's about 162g's.

[chuck baader]

All of my hits have been side impact save 1.

jjj, you are correct, the data does not show non survivability from the impact without a deceive. However, it does show a damn good possibility. That's good enough for me.

Greg, the newer HANS with the wings and use of a 2" shoulder belt solves the problem. I have had no such issues with mine, and I have given it a very fair chance. Chuck

[Greg Amy]

Ok, Greg....show us your mad math skills...
No, you show us the data. Anything else is bullshit*.

GA

* Or semi-religious faith to an ideal that does not need proof.

On edit:

Greg, the newer HANS with the wings and use of a 2" shoulder belt solves the problem...So what you're sayin' is, the prior version of the bible wasn't as good as it should have been -- despite its industry approvals -- and may actually have been more dangerous, and that if I just forget that one and spend more money on the new bible, everything will now be okay? What happens when the next edition comes out due to inconsistencies in v2...just keep swallowing?

Gotcha.

[chuck baader]

Greg, obviously you missed this: "Ok, Greg....show us your mad math skills. 80mph to stop in about 18" is how many Gs? Copied from another forum:

a=V^2/2d.

a= 5194ft/sec^2. That's about 162g's." (Oh, yea...make that -160Gs)

You know the track and the speeds in that area. I feel 80mph is a reasonable assumption...and yes, I know what assumption means.

Most people, when designing items, improve the items over time. That is just the way it is. Real life does not model on a computer or drawing board. That is why there are other items available. Sorry you had a bad experience, but haters are gonna hate. Accept this thread for what it was intended....an example of what can and does happen to good people. BTW, I don't think Scott was using a HANS but another device. Chuck

[Simon T.]

His H&N system could have helped or it may not have mattered.

Either way it was a hard impact, we've seen people hit that wall at that angle before without any H&N system at higher speeds and get right out, but is it worth trying if you can be better prepared with a H&N system?

[jjjanos]

Ok, Greg....show us your mad math skills. 80mph to stop in about 18" is how many Gs? Copied from another forum:

a=V^2/2d.

a= 5194ft/sec^2. That's about 162g's.

Assuming 80MPH (which, unless I see the data logger, is probably a gross overestimation of the speed at impact) ...

80MPH = 117.333 feet/second initial velocity
0MPH = 0 feet/second terminal velocity

Delta = 117.333 feet/second
Delta ^2 = 13,767.11
Distance = 1.5 feet
Delta ^2/(2xDistance) = 4589.037
1Gee = 32 Feet/second^2

Gamma/Gee = 4589.037/32 = 143.4074 "Gees"

And if he had taken that deceleration, he would have had more significant internal injuries from the force of his organs and other soft tissues slamming into his body.


You know the track and the speeds in that area. I feel 80mph is a reasonable assumption...and yes, I know what assumption means.

How many seconds was he sliding sideways? You scrub alot of speed off when the tires aren't rolling. At 60MpH, the deceleration is 80.67 gees. At 40MpH, the deceleration is 35.85 gees .

And my ISAAC still remains superior as I have had zero crashes where it would have been useful while wearing it and you have had 1 where yours was useful. Obviously, the reasoning the ISAAC is a better device is that it works premptively and actually prevents impacts....

[Greg Amy]

Greg, obviously you missed this:
No, I ignored it, because it makes too many assumptions, and ignores too many other factors to be of anything other than an Internet argument. I'm an engineer, I know better.

Show me the data*. Otherwise, it's bullshit.

GA

* As in, data acquisition, proving your position rather than relying on Internet math.

[downingracing]

And here is a video of that same device trapping someone in a car (1 minute mark). Covered in gas and can't get out of the car.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEtCGO9atzM

And I'm not the best driver - but I saw that car dumping fluid and saw the crash coming way before it happened. I'm glad the driver is OK.

[Simon T.]

And here is a video of that same device trapping someone in a car (1 minute mark). Covered in gas and can't get out of the car.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEtCGO9atzM

And I'm not the best driver - but I saw that car dumping fluid and saw the crash coming way before it happened. I'm glad the driver is OK.

Yeah but do you see that wreck or a heavy frontal impact more on any given race weekend? I'd bet you're far more likely to experience a nice front bang than a massive rollover.

[downingracing]

Yeah but do you see that wreck or a heavy frontal impact more on any given race weekend? I'd bet you're far more likely to experience a nice front bang than a massive rollover.

I see more rollovers (easy or hard) than heavy front end impacts. Over 13 years of road racing... Doesn't need to be a 'bad' rollover - that device would have trapped him in the car after any rollover.

[Simon T.]

I see more rollovers (easy or hard) than heavy front end impacts. Over 13 years of road racing... Doesn't need to be a 'bad' rollover - that device would have trapped him in the car after any rollover.

Then maybe it's the track, but attending 20+ days of track use a year at Road Atlanta I've seen far more heavy frontal impacts where you may want a H&N than rollovers where it may trap you.

[Knestis]

It's a little late for substantive arguments about the merits of various H&N designs, guys. Y'all (collectively) missed that boat.

K

[erlrich]

It's a little late for substantive arguments about the merits of various H&N designs, guys. Y'all (collectively) missed that boat.

K

What?!?! Too late??? It's not too late until we say it is! Was it too late when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[Greg Amy]

Hey, he's on a roll.

;)

[ShelbyRacer]

If any people ever deserved to be on double secret probation, it's some of us on this board...

[ner88]

What?!?! Too late??? It's not too late until we say it is! Was it too late when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
They did when????:shrug:

[TStiles]

" My advise to you , is to begin drinking heavily "

[lawtonglenn]

<sigh>

80 on track, likely 50 at impact
1.5 feet to 0 is ridiculous (0.013sec at 80)

let's make a table of "gees" vs decel time

dv = 50mi/hr * 5280ft/mi * 12 in/ft /((39.37 in/m)*3600sec/hr)= 22m/sec

accel = dv/dt
1g = 9.81 m/sec^2

decel
time , gees

0.05sec , 44g
0.10sec , 22g
0.20sec , 11g
0.40sec , 5g

my guess? at the average speed of (50-0)/2= 25mph = 36.6 ft/sec it would take
0.1 sec to move 3.66 feet, which considering the crush zone and the deflection
of the concrete barrier, seems reasonable

I'd say 22g +/- 11g (nowhere near 160g)



Early experiments showed that untrained humans were able to tolerate 17 g eyeballs-in (compared to 12 g eyeballs-out)
for several minutes without loss of consciousness or apparent long-term harm.[14] The record for peak experimental horizontal g-force
tolerance is held by acceleration pioneer John Stapp, in a series of rocket sled deceleration experiments culminating in a late 1954
test in which he was stopped in a little over a second from a land speed of Mach 0.9. He survived a peak "eyeballs-out" force of 46.2
times the force of gravity, and more than 25 g for 1.1 sec, proving that the human body is capable of this. Stapp lived another 45
years to age 89, but suffered lifelong damage to his vision from this last test.[15]

.
.

[jjjanos]

But he was driving flatout and was seventh!
[quote]
Early experiments showed that untrained humans were able to tolerate 17 g eyeballs-in (compared to 12 g eyeballs-out)
for several minutes without loss of consciousness or apparent long-term harm.[14] The record for peak experimental horizontal g-force
tolerance is held by acceleration pioneer John Stapp, in a series of rocket sled deceleration experiments culminating in a late 1954
test in which he was stopped in a little over a second from a land speed of Mach 0.9. He survived a peak "eyeballs-out" force of 46.2
times the force of gravity, and more than 25 g for 1.1 sec, proving that the human body is capable of this. Stapp lived another 45
years to age 89, but suffered lifelong damage to his vision from this last test.[15]

.
.

Don't forget David Purley...
He returned to Formula One in 1977 with his own LEC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEC_Refrigeration_Racing) chassis designed by Mike Pilbeam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilbeam_Racing_Designs) and run by Mike Earle. It was this car in which he suffered serious injuries in an accident during pre-qualifying for that year's British Grand Prix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_British_Grand_Prix). He survived an estimated 179.8g (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force) when he decelerated from 173 km/h (108 mph) to 0 in a distance of 66 cm (26 inches) after his throttle got stuck wide open and he hit a wall.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Purley#cite_note-Purley-2) For many years, this was thought to be the highest g-force ever survived by a human being.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Purley#cite_note-Purley-2) He suffered multiple fractures to his legs, pelvis and ribs.

[lawtonglenn]

But he was driving flatout and was seventh!



:happy204: one of my favorites!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyr6VDaaWJE

[JLawton]

They did when????:shrug:


Jees Jerry, I didn't think you were too old to miss the John Belushi reference!! I stand corrected!





:D



.

[tom_sprecher]

Haven't watched the video, but can already tell you I don't need an H&NR device.

Me neither since I have decided to quit racing instead. It wasn't the H&N requirement alone, but it was another straw that eventually broke the camel's back.

[Hoof Hearted]

:happy204: one of my favorites!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyr6VDaaWJE

I've seen this several times and continue chuckling... ...I enjoy it even more now that I see my car (red Scirocco, then owned by Tim Meyer) makes an appearance at the 3:21 mark.

I think I'll be handing over my H&R ransom to purchase the Safety Solutions Hybrid Pro Rage Restraint because it has side-impact tethers, low neck profile and torso straps...

[JohnW8]

Me neither since I have decided to quit racing instead. It wasn't the H&N requirement alone, but it was another straw that eventually broke the camel's back.

I never like seeing comments like this.
SCCA seems to have too many straws as of late.

[Speed Raycer]

Me neither since I have decided to quit racing instead. It wasn't the H&N requirement alone, but it was another straw that eventually broke the camel's back.
That's why I went over to CHUMP. One class... basically no real rules other than to keep costs "down" and currently NO HNR rule other than you gotta have something. Belts get 4 years from manufacture date. You should find a team Tom. Guaranteed to have fun racing again ;)

[Russ Myers]

I'm pretty much in Tom's boat as well. But I can still go solo untill the powers that be mandate H&N devices in auto-x.



Russ

[ShelbyRacer]

Come do hillclimbs and Time Trials. No H&N requirement, 5 year belts... Heck, you can even run just a bar in some cars (though I'm not fond of that...). I can also tell you that if you have a competitive road race car in the northeast, you will be in great shape car-prep-wise at Time Trials. Most of our competitors are not at the car preparation limits...

[mossaidis]

COMSCC is a great club (non-SCCA) located in the northeast which I began running HPDE/TTs with back in 2005. They run at Mosport, Mont Tremblant (not every year though), NJMP, NHMS, WGI and a few others including Summit... http://www.comscc.org/. Another good HPDE club woud be PDA (NASA) and BMWCCA (I typically run with Patroon)

[BruceG]

Given some info on LRP, I would say that they are going to be "marketing" to get alot more clubs there for track days this year.

[tom_sprecher]

For me it was the amount of time and work involved vs. the entertainment I was getting out of racing was no longer worth it. Having to buy a H&N, new helmet, license and get yet another physical pushed it over the edge.

My car is up for sale here. http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29956 I know it's asking top dollar, but am more than willing to negotiate.

While it is for sale I'll do test days at Rd Atl and Little Talladega. I'm really looking for some track time that can be done in one day. Show up around 9-10, run some sessions, be home by 6, sleep in my own bed to get up and do something else the next day. Previously, since I would help paddock park for test days my race weekend would start at 12 on Thursday. I no longer have any desire to spend 4 days at the track. I don't even spend four days on vacation.

If I can't do it in one day, I'm out. Plus, my son and I might get a couple of dirt bikes to play in the mountains with instead. Again, only one day required.

[Flyinglizard]

Bring your son to Chumpcar, run one day and go home.
What ever, spend the time with your kids doing something.

[Kai Noeske]

Crossposting what I wrote over at the sandbox, with expletives removed:

This is about the argument "No proof that this accident would have been deadly without a HNR" that some of you raised above.

That argument is moot and completely misses the point. It is not just about life and death - it is about head and neck *injuries*, and many of you don't seem to know these injuries' consequences. Any massive whiplash (and that impact WOULD have been one) includes a severe concussion, and injuries to the spine.

We know that non-fracture, soft-tissue spine injuries stay with you for a long time, and can give you a hard time for years, if not the rest of your life.

However, much worse, we have recently learned about repetitive head injury syndrome: A concussion is not just a bruised brain that goes away. It causes microscopic injuries and changes to your brain, and if it happens repeatedly, it can fry your brain really badly in many ways (neurological performance, mental health) and make it very sensitive to more concussions. Google "Repetitive Head Injury Syndrome" - it's bad. Observed in football players, boxers, and the like.

I know what I am talking about. Two heavy whiplashes when I was hit in traffic accidents, and one bike accident where I crashed into a driving car (my fault), with no helmet, totaling a 7 yr old Citroen with my body - mostly my head, 27 stitches, massive concussion that affected my brain function for 6 months or more. Apart from a sensitive neck that periodically gives me shit, I now get concussion symptoms from relatively minor impacts to my head - mild hit in a Karate tournament, the classic standing up into an open kitchen cabinet door, etc.

Wearing a HNR for me is not just an "I don't want to die" thing. It is an "I want to keep blows to my brain to a minimum" thing, because also the non-lethal blows are really effing bad.

[JLawton]

I really have no issues with the mandate to wear a device. My issue is two fold. One, I have a device that is now deemed "unsafe" by an organization that is representing the manufacturers. Two, my choice is limited because of the small amount of knowledge I have of the whole thing seems to me to be a huge conflict of interest.

(And yes, I wrote several letters complaining about both issues)

I don't mind shelling out $500-$600 to increase my safety (to what ever degree you want to argue) while racing. I WISH my device was the biggest expense over a season........... In fact, I wish it was the biggest exepnse I have for one weekend!!!

So I kinda gotta call BS on the "expense" argument. Spread out over the life of the device it's a drop in the bucket. You can't complain about the H&N mandate expensing you out of racing.............


.

[Kai Noeske]

I really have no issues with the mandate to wear a device. My issue is two fold. One, I have a device that is now deemed "unsafe" by an organization that is representing the manufacturers. Two, my choice is limited because of the small amount of knowledge I have of the whole thing seems to me to be a huge conflict of interest.

(And yes, I wrote several letters complaining about both issues)

I don't mind shelling out $500-$600 to increase my safety (to what ever degree you want to argue) while racing. I WISH my device was the biggest expense over a season........... In fact, I wish it was the biggest exepnse I have for one weekend!!!

So I kinda gotta call BS on the "expense" argument. Spread out over the life of the device it's a drop in the bucket. You can't complain about the H&N mandate expensing you out of racing.............


.

Agreed - and while some say that the likelihood of a fatal HN injury from a frontal impact is low in club racing, everyone knows that it is *almost certain* to get into one or several accidents in your club racing career that have a forward velocity component - even getting rear-ended, or hitting the wall backwards, whips your head forward. Every one of those will injure your neck and brain through the classic whiplash mechanism. If you consider that, then a HNR is a small-ish investment that has a close to certain lifetime likelihood of making a soft tissue injury much less bad than it could be.

[Russ Myers]

How did I ever live through my wreck in the esses at Rd. Atlanta? I really don't have the faintest idea. I really should be quite dead .

Russ

[jjjanos]

even getting rear-ended, or hitting the wall backwards, whips your head forward.

Ummmm, you need to look at the signs on the direction vectors in that equation....

[pitbull113]

reading through all this BS about the H&N mandate i've read good reasons for and against wearing a H&N device but I haven't read one good reason why as an adult i'm being forced to wear one. I should be able to make that decision myself.

[tom_sprecher]

reading through all this BS about the H&N mandate i've read good reasons for and against wearing a H&N device but I haven't read one good reason why as an adult i'm being forced to wear one. I should be able to make that decision myself.

The BOD's fear that if they did not mandate use, like most other sanctioning bodies, the Club wiuld be liable in the case on serious injury or death.

Or at least that's how a couple of Directors explained it to me.

BTW I agree with you.

[red986s]

I have no doubt that this type of argument has come up multiple times back in SCCAs past.

"My GOD! The club is mandating all racers where helmets! I quit!"

"Can you believe the new rule requiring safety belts!? I should just quit!"

"You've got to be kidding me, the club is forcing us to where fire suits! THAT'S IT, I QUIT!"

So go ahead, quit. Just less folks for the rest of us to pass. :114:

[lateapex911]

I have no doubt that this type of argument has come up multiple times back in SCCAs past.

"My GOD! The club is mandating all racers where helmets! I quit!"

"Can you believe the new rule requiring safety belts!? I should just quit!"

"You've got to be kidding me, the club is forcing us to where fire suits! THAT'S IT, I QUIT!"

So go ahead, quit. Just less folks for the rest of us to pass. :114:

Read up.
The number of people who are in that camp (AGAINST any device) are the vast minority. Most are upset at the club forcing us to choose among a limited set of choices.
It's a unique situation with no real parallel.

[red986s]

Read up.
The number of people who are in that camp (AGAINST any device) are the vast minority. Most are upset at the club forcing us to choose among a limited set of choices.
It's a unique situation with no real parallel.

Thanks Jake, I have read about, at nauseum, the argument. I heard about the requirement at the beginning of 2011. Saved my money and preparing to by one. I have yet to read ANYTHING on the limited choices we have injuring anyone who has used one in an accident. What bothers me are those who say they are going to quit over it. Aren't all our choices for safety equip limited by certification and age (ie belts, helmet, suit)?

[biovic]

From personal experience of a hard frontal impact back in 2006 at NHIS between my car and a concrete jersey barrier, going from 55mph to 0 in less than a second (knocked over barrier so probably traveled 3 feet), I believe my H&N (happened to be a HANS) saved my life or at least prevented serious neck injury. I actually had no whiplash (I won't mention the lower spinal compression fractures, I believe due to loose belts (I wouldn't be surprised if some on this board may argue there is a H&N link :rolleyes:). I was probably one of the first half dozen racers in the region to wear a H&N, I think I bought it in 2004 ($900 cost back then) but I felt it was worth the money for increased safety, considering I (we) spend lots more money on go faster parts. I did not do a lot of research on other products (I think the Hutchins was the only other one at the time), but have used the HANS for 8 years and it is part of the safety equipment and routine for me at this point. My post is not meant to debate any device or the certification bodies, etc. Sure, I'm peeved too that the new rules will make me recertify the thing and the hassle of mailing it out to weherever to get checked/inspected and re-stickered, but I'll have to do it if I want to race.

Victor
03 ITA NER

[JLawton]

All the arguing and complaining about mandating is all a moot point as Kirk said. That horse has alread left the barn!! :dead_horse::dead_horse::dead_horse:



I do feel bad for those people who have to stop racing because they have to spend $500 every five years..... (or whatever it ends up being before we have to throw them away like we do hemets) That equiates to $100 a year (yeah, I'm a math genius)........ I spend more on fuel in one weekend than that!!

[gran racing]

I'm not in favor of madating the H&NR system. People touting off how this is THE device to save your life are missing the boat. Yes, I've had the joy of totalling a car shoving it into a wall at a high speed (I did not own a H&NR at the time). I'm not convinced that it should be the most important item which should be addressed for safety concerns; just lawer concerns. Look at half of the cages we see in the paddock. Yes Kai, that includes yours. ;) You're also missing both additional nets that the HANS needs.

How are people's seats mounted? Seen some pretty crazy stuff there too. Stricter controls of who we allow out on the track. Physical tests of drivers to really see what the heart attack risk might be. From what information I've seen, that probably represents the highest cause of death in our type of racing.

Stating that the purchase is a drop in the bucket is bunch of BS. Fine, reduce the expensive SCCA dues, don't phase out belts every two years unless FIA certified, new helmets, and now a $600 (screw HANS) purchase? Many people including myself look at what this hobby costs and evaluate if other activities might be a better option. No, the $600 by itself might not break the camels back but it all adds up. Don't complain when the next $600 required item is added to the list.

[BruceG]

I wish that I had a Butler Halo seat and/or dual nets when I was hit on rt2 in Glastonbury by a 5pt buck, Thanksgiving week! The impact was mostly lateral, so perhaps a HANS wouldn't have helped...but the deer's rack shattered the drivers side window, crushed my door, tore off my mirror and damaged the left front fender on my 2011 Subaru Legacy. I was sore both in my neck and lower spine for 2 weeks from the lateral impact.:(

[RacerBill]

I will be going to the IMIS Show in Indy tomorrow, and I will ask the Simpson/Safety Solutions folks about the 38.1 recertification rule and how Hybrid will implement this.

[downingracing]

From personal experience of a hard frontal impact back in 2006 at NHIS between my car and a concrete jersey barrier, going from 55mph to 0 in less than a second (knocked over barrier so probably traveled 3 feet), I believe my H&N (happened to be a HANS) saved my life or at least prevented serious neck injury. I actually had no whiplash (I won't mention the lower spinal compression fractures, I believe due to loose belts (I wouldn't be surprised if some on this board may argue there is a H&N link :rolleyes:). I was probably one of the first half dozen racers in the region to wear a H&N, I think I bought it in 2004 ($900 cost back then) but I felt it was worth the money for increased safety, considering I (we) spend lots more money on go faster parts. I did not do a lot of research on other products (I think the Hutchins was the only other one at the time), but have used the HANS for 8 years and it is part of the safety equipment and routine for me at this point. My post is not meant to debate any device or the certification bodies, etc. Sure, I'm peeved too that the new rules will make me recertify the thing and the hassle of mailing it out to weherever to get checked/inspected and re-stickered, but I'll have to do it if I want to race.

Victor
03 ITA NER

I had the same type impact with my Civic a few years ago at IRP (ORP). Nose into a single stack of tires and then into the jersey barrier. Was going around ?80? when I hit the brakes and had about a car length of skid marks to the wall. Rolled that barrier away and didn't do the Civic any favors. (Hood thru the windshield, twisted the motor, frame rail touching the front tire...) No H&N device - only belts. I'm 100% sure I didn't need a H&N device to save my life (since I didn't die or get (really) hurt in the crash)...

This argument is always fun. I'm just poking here and am over the whole thing. I'm sure I'll purchase something - the cheapest thing I can get that passes tech. I will use it and have it adjusted to not impact my ability to use the mirrors and I'll 'probably' be racing again in 2012.

And the next step in the quest for safety is to require these devices for every track event! PDX drivers should be required to use these devices as well. Looking at the 'proof' videos all over the interweb - Many accidents are 1 car incidents that the H&N device saves the driver's life. Since many (most) PDX drivers are using vehicles WAY FASTER than most IT cars AND are often lacking things like racing brake pads - They should be required to use these safety devices as well. Using the argument that a mandate of H&N devices will 'kill' PDX is not valid - SAFETY FIRST.

[jjjanos]

I do feel bad for those people who have to stop racing because they have to spend $500 every five years..... (or whatever it ends up being before we have to throw them away like we do hemets) That equiates to $100 a year (yeah, I'm a math genius)........ I spend more on fuel in one weekend than that!!

Before even receiving a tech sticker next year I am looking at:

new belts
a replacement H&N system for the one I have already
a new seat so that the new H&N system offers the same level of protection the now worthless H&N system already gives me.
a new helmet
$400 out of pocket for my physical because the medical plan pays for 1 every 2 years and I needed to get one this year for something else and I'll need one to renew the license next year.
$200(?) in membership and licensing fees
explaining to the Missus why the 2008 $800 xmas present is now useless.

Sooooooooo, I'm basically looking at spending as much as I did on the car itself just to comply with a stupid, assinine regulation adopted by fools and morons.

For that upfront cost, I get to incur $250+ entry fees for less than 1 hour of track time, the operating expenses on the car, the depreciation on the car, the cost of food/fuel/hotel getting to and staying at the track or, if the boy isn't with me, I can skip the hotel but then I don't get to say good morning or put my son to bed.

Or.... I can tell SCCA to shove it, on race weekends - I can be there when my son wakes up, take him into the backyard and play with him, head off to the go-kart track one of the days and drive until my arms fall off for a cost well below what 1 hour of track time costs and get home in time to read my son "Where's My Cow?" and give him a kiss good night.

You do the math.

[gran racing]

Or you can bring your son and family to the track? LOL Not sure about yours, but my soon-to-be four year son LOVES going to racing events, hanging out while I work on the car, and watching daddy go out on the track.

[jjjanos]

Or you can bring your son and family to the track? LOL Not sure about yours, but my soon-to-be four year son LOVES going to racing events, hanging out while I work on the car, and watching daddy go out on the track.


the cost of food/fuel/hotel getting to and staying at the track or, if the boy isn't with me, I can skip the hotel...

He loves the race track. He's only 2, but if I tell him on Monday that we are going to the race track this weekend, he will remember it all week. Oddly enough, the only other thing he remembers like that is when I tell him that Uncle Torch is coming over.

[Gregg]

oddly enough, the only other thing he remembers like that is when i tell him that uncle torch is coming over.:023:

[JLawton]

Nobody here has ever said what we do makes sense......... Financially, socially, physically, emotionally...................

It is a silly sport..................

[callard]

It is a silly sport..................
So are mountain climbing and bull fighting...but Papa H thought they were pretty cool.:shrug:

[dave parker]

Oddly enough, the only other thing he remembers like that is when I tell him that Uncle Torch is coming over.

At my house WE call him "Uncle Greg".
Porsche can show you where he falls asleep (anywhere he sits down) and can tell you good stories about how loud some of the toys he buys are.
:happy204:

cheers
dave parker

[lateapex911]

:dead_horse::dead_horse::dead_horse:



I do feel bad for those people who have to stop racing because they have to spend $500 every five years..... (or whatever it ends up being before we have to throw them away like we do hemets) That equiates to $100 a year (yeah, I'm a math genius)........ I spend more on fuel in one weekend than that!!

Jeff, yea, it's going to run me more like $2000 to be as safe as I was BEFORE they made me buy one. And I'll be lass safe, unless I buy a NEW CAR to get a bigger window, because I'm giving up egress space.

then of course the old seat goes into the dumpster, along with the belts and old HnR..
Just seems silly. And I HATE rules that everyone tells me are for my own good, but ya, know, the rule is REALLY good for other people to profit $ on, and really not good AT ALL for me.

I REALLY appreciate that some BoD members went to bat on this time and again, I get the stupid situation with legal issues, but I also look at the rule book, and i see SO much contradiction and hypocrisy it makes my head spin.
Such as: Seats may NOT have sliders such as the ones used on every Grand Am etc car built, but MAY be attached with velco, etc etc. (See Daves list)


yet we line up to pour money into some racketeers pockets.

[tom_sprecher]

Yet we line up to pour money into some racketeers pockets.

Besides someone else telling me what is best for me, this aspect is what really irritates me. It only helped me finally decide to no longer subsidize the whole thing.

Test days = no rules = they get my $$$
Racing = too many rules = they don't get my $$$

Vote with your wallet. I doubt it's any more effective than voting for our political leaders, but it's definitely more satisfying. ;)

[tsrauto51]

Some drivers really need a H&N. I know hindsight is 20/20 but check out where he goes to opposite lock. All the indicators are there, steam, slowing car, and shiny racing surface. It's white knuckle time = no input = drive straight off if you must. H&N is for the lowest common denominator. The rest suck it up. "The club" has been making us jump through hoops for years so whats one more thing?

[philakamrbean]

Ranger indicated the seat was a Kirkey Halo (not sure of model), and head and neck restraint was a Safety Solutions RS3 or something like that.

[BruceG]

Nobody here has ever said what we do makes sense......... Financially, socially, physically, emotionally...................

It is a silly sport..................

Just watched the British touring car series from Donington Park. The series leader, Jason Plato got forced off at 120mph on to the infield grass, hit an embankment,rolled and flipped 3 or 4 times...walked away feeling ok. He was wearing a HANS and most of the movement would have been lateral!Very subjective...but still better off for wearing the device, I would think.:dead_horse:

[Russ Myers]

Eric Medlin and Scott Kalitta died while wearing HANS deals. What's your point?

Russ

[BruceG]

Russ....Since we have to wear a H&N device.....and HANS is one of the few choices(and I own one), of course I'm interested in how they do during an accident. Obviously, there are times(like Dan weldon's incident) where no H&N would have helped. I'm not familiar with the 2 men you spoke of.

[BruceG]

Russ...Just Googled scott. Seems like he left the drag strip in excess of 300MPH and became airborn in a funny car.Not quite sure what the structural integrity of the vehicle is.

[Russ Myers]

Bruce,
I am one of those who is not in favor of MANDATED H&N deals. You don't really know if it actually saved you beacuse there is no A-B comparrison. I race a Pinto, it don't really have a whole lotta Delta-V. I actually know people who drive faster than my race car on I-485 around Charlotte. And I really do stand a better chance of being killed by someone texting while driving. I was wrecked this year at VIR, and listening to a bunch of folks, I shoulda been carried out on a slab. Walked away pissed, thats all. Not being mean or snooty, just don't like the idea, that's all.

Russ

[BruceG]

Bruce,
I am one of those who is not in favor of MANDATED H&N deals. You don't really know if it actually saved you beacuse there is no A-B comparrison. I race a Pinto, it don't really have a whole lotta Delta-V. I actually know people who drive faster than my race car on I-485 around Charlotte. And I really do stand a better chance of being killed by someone texting while driving. I was wrecked this year at VIR, and listening to a bunch of folks, I shoulda been carried out on a slab. Walked away pissed, thats all. Not being mean or snooty, just don't like the idea, that's all.

RussRuss...I respect your opinion! Seems like we all have our knickers in a twist over H&N(rightfully so). It seems that every shunt I have seen on NASCAR,British touring cars, German touring cars, SCCA on YOUTUBE, ad naseum, the HANS is the only H&N device I have seen a driver wearing! That's not good for us...but since I own one, I've been trying to see how it worked in different accidents. BTW..Pintos are neat race cars, as are 2.3L MUstangs. I'm surprised more folks don't race them due to the availability of parts.

Happy XMAS season to you!:happy204:

[Knestis]

HANS has an even firmer hold on FIA-sanctioned racing (e.g., F1 and touring cars) than it does in the US. The big-dollar teams can also afford to design the entire seat and cockpit around the device, using the car to provide lateral protection.

There is NOTHING wrong with that and in fact, those comprehensive systems are an excellent advance in driver safety - like the removable head surrounds in formula cars. However, we deal with so many different kinds of chassis, seats, driver sizes, etc., that we should have more flexibility in our solutions.

We don't though. The ship has sailed. Most of the SCCA members that didn't go out and buy a HANS because they saw them on "real racing drivers" didn't give a damn about any of this until it was too late to influence policy.

K

[lateapex911]

HANS has an even firmer hold on FIA-sanctioned racing (e.g., F1 and touring cars) than it does in the US. The big-dollar teams can also afford to design the entire seat and cockpit around the device, using the car to provide lateral protection.


K

My understanding is that in F1 for example, HANS has made custom units. I'm not sure how far down the line custom units are available.


Bruce, that's great that people 'walk away".... but really, so? WHY they walked away is COMPLETELY unknown to us. We don't have the information to make the judgement. Maybe it was the seat?? Or the foam containment cell? Or maybe, even though he was bouncing around a lot, no individual impact imparted significant stress or G loading to his body. You just don't know. So, lets not toot about how great the HANS he was forced to wear is.

I tried on all the major players the other night, in Greg Amys car. I was shocked at how the HANS has zero adjustment to the tethers. They are what they are, no matter if you're a tall big guy with no neck, or a tall big guy with a giraffe neck. (Or some other combination). My head went pretty far forward and down before the straps hit. Then it felt like I was a dog that just hit the end of the leash. My head hurt after a few of those "what if" head tosses. To me, I'd think that one size doesn't fit all. Performance MUST vary from person to person, no?

Well, we just don't know. Call SFI and they will refuse to release any data except to say it passed the minimum level of acceptable in their required tests. HANS reports only the data they want to, and only from the dummy they use. (mandated by the 38.1 spec). (Which, in HANS case is pretty much of their choosing, LOL)

The other one I tried, DID have adjustable tethers. So you can get them perfect. But what's perfect? And whats to stop somebody from loosening them to ineffectiveness?

The Hybrid was really tedious to hook up. Threading the D rings through the helmet loops....uggg. And the arrangement of the shoulder fulcrum piece and all the straps made just getting the harness and everything situated pretty dodgy. I wasn't a fan of all those straps either.

The R3 was most comfortable for me. The thing that goes down you back fit me fine. And it was pretty easy to fit and hook up.

None of them limited my head movement in any significant manner. The halo seat (a Racetech) was the guilty party on that count.

In the end, one thought kept pushing forward. My old unit, the one I've been wearing long before SCCA even discussed recommending something, addressed each and every concern I had as I tested the options I have to choose from. It self adjusts to your geometry. It doesn't hit you like a dog on a leash. IT provides better lateral support. It's easy to hook and unhook. It's off in 1 second.

For me, this mandate is a HUGE and $2000 step BACKwards.

[BruceG]

Jake...I'm in complete agreement with you. I'm not advocating a HANS to anybody. I'm stuck with mine for the time being and guess that the more you know about the devil you know...the better. Most of us(me for sure) should have done a better job fighting the club to include more choices...and perhaps that will happen down the road. It's just another expense I'm not looking forward to.Thank you for your valuable imput!!

[ShelbyRacer]

My understanding is that in F1 for example, HANS has made custom units. I'm not sure how far down the line custom units are available.




Yeah, if you look at this list, you'll see some F1 units spec'd out separately (look at the end of the document). I wonder why the specs aren't published? :rolleyes:

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/B4C9D26E26B5320FC12578CC0038E07C/$FILE/L29_Approved_FHR_systems.pdf

If one of you guys would "donate" your Isaac to an F1 team, do you think they could get it approved? :)

[joeg]

They are not speced because the F1 custom Hans are proprietary to Hans and the F1 team.

[tom91ita]

Jake,

based on your test fits, what do you recommend for the more than 2 less than 4 weekend per year budget aware racer?

thanks.

[gran racing]

Unfortuately, the HANS. And I don't like them. I think that in the end Jake and I will agree on our real opinions - we weren't that impressed with any of them. So choose the best of the worst options available. Certainly made me appreciate how the ISAAC device works and felt. :(

The Hybrid Pro Rage wasn't comfortable and awkward. Supposidly the clips that go to the belt help in side impacts. Guess it makes sense. The R3 was easier to get on, but without the seat pad I didn't care for it.

Spoke with the inventor of the Safety Solutions product (Trevor Ashline) the other day for a bit. A few things I wasn't aware of when we did the testing / a correction to what I was previously told. The Hybrid Rage most definately needs the belts to stay put, but supposidly with it's design of rubber it stays put more than the HANS.

The R3 is more designed for other types of racing and works without relying on the belts. Said it's much more popular in offroad racing. Think he said boat racing, but don't quote me on that.

Comparing the data of the specs was more than a challenge. Hell, Safety Solutions initially told me that before releasing the upper neck tension tests he'd need to clear things with their........marketing department. As you already know, SFI can't divulge the info since it's not theirs.

The article and video from our get together are still in progress. Hopefully it'll be completed soon. Video editing is a major PITA. lol

[lateapex911]

Jake,

based on your test fits, what do you recommend for the more than 2 less than 4 weekend per year budget aware racer?

thanks.Well, honestly, I think it's a big ole mess, and very difficult to decipher the actual performance.
Considerations:

Your car. Lets face it, a 50MPH hit into tire barriers in a sedan based car with a full cage and sheet metal is a lot different than an Indy car into the wall at Texas. Doubtful many of us NEED super head on performance. So deciphering the numbers might not be THE most important aspect.

Your seat. Any lateral protection? Some H&NRs do a better job here. If your seat isn't a halo style then maybe that model with better offset performance will help you keep the seat you have. (less $ spent in the end)

Budget: these things aren't cheap. Nor are the upgrades (new seat) to make them work as well as the Issac, if you used that previously.

Comfort. The R3 fit me fine but I guess my shoulder blades fit it well. Others wanted the seat pad. They Hybrid seemed way too cumbersome. The HANS kinda annoyed my shoulders and I hate the thing hanging on me as I get out. But thats a real personal call.

Principals/Ethics: SFI and HANS clearly wrote the spec that has resulted in, to be blunt, a bunch of crappy solutions. If the makers of the HANS were really interested in real safety, they'd have written a spec that had design freedom in it as opposed to language designed to protect HANS and help them write patent infringement lawsuits. They were quite bright about that. SFI of course is guilty too, but we are in a box on that aspect. So, from a principal POV, some may avoid the HANS.

To answer your question, based on the info you've given, I'd search for a used HANS. Or i'd find a friend in another class that races and borrow his. It's not like a helmet where you sweat it up, and the sizing aspect is simpler. Heck buy him beers, or throw him a $20 for rent. If you payed $20/race, you'd have spent $180 after three seasons of your assumed schedule. In three years, maybe the landscape for H&NR will have changed.

I hope........

[mossaidis]

Guys, thank you for your advice so far. Your opinion is/will be invaluable for those that have not purchased anything yet, worry that the "sales" deadlines are quickly approaching and that spending $600 w/o any personal homework makes us think twice... three times, maybe four before spending that kind of money. I was really hoping the Hybrid would be better than the HANS in terms of comfort, perhaps not. Damn you SFI...

[gran racing]

I'm going mess around with the Hybrid one more time. There are guys who love it.

[Knestis]

I really liked the hybrid when I tried it. It's not nearly as fiddly as one might think, even if snapping into the D-rings required help.

K

[pitbull113]

ups just delivered my hybrid rage and though i haven't sat in the car yet or hooked it to my helmet it seems comfortable enough that i won't notice it on track. i'm a small guy 5ft 6in 160 lbs but i can see how larger guys (overweight) might find it cumbersome.

[gran racing]

OUCH! lol Maybe you're just tiny. :p

[lateapex911]

Yea, I know I'm not svelt, but I was a little insulted by that, LOL. 6'3" 215...

[gran racing]

Yeah but dude, you're a swimmer!

Okay, so in actuality I do give you tons of credit Jake, but you knew that already. 29 takes later, getting the "you suck" e-mail from Hollywood.....finally it's live on YouTube. A 4 minute video taking 3 plus hours to film? Grrr.

[pitbull113]

okay you guys know that wasn't directed at anyone in particular right? what i meant was there is very little adjustment in the straps and if you're not height weight proportional it might be a pita to get fitted right.

[tom91ita]

.....finally it's live on YouTube. A 4 minute video taking 3 plus hours to film? Grrr.

link?

[Hoof Hearted]

So I did my research (read Dave G's article!) and purchased the strap & buckle contraption (aka Hybrid Pro Rage) and I hate it. I am returning it for the clavicle crunching, belt slipping contraption (aka HANS).

I was enraged by the Rage with all the tethers, clips, straps, buckles... ...just cumbersome. Plus the SFI sticker date on the Rage was already a year old. When asking the SafeRacer dude for an exchange to the HANS, I requested a "fresh" sfi sticker... ...he said "it's like buying milk...". Well, when I buy milk, I pull the jug from the rear of the cooler, so please dig in the back of the rack...

Apparently, SafeRacer just got in a new shipment of "fresh" HANS, so we'll see.

Thanks Dave for putting together the test fittings!

[lateapex911]

The brilliant Hans spec bites again! Seems like you can build a unit that will meet the spec and avoid lawsuits, but nobody will buy it....

[Spinnetti]

jjj..The wrecked E30 is a friend of mine. He calculated the G load in excess of 160Gs. The H made the wreck survivable....period. If you can't see that I feel sorry for you. Chuck (Someone who has hit/been hit 5 separate impacts while wearing the HANS.)

Interesting. I had nearly the same hit. The sound and feel are one you never forget. Mine was at the IT fest years ago, at wide open throttle at the end of the main straight. My car was crushed worse than that as I had another car pile drive me in. They didn't have HANS back then, and I got out without anything sore whatsoever. My car was so bent that two of the wheels (kitty-corner) didn't even touch the ground. What does that video prove? Absolutely nothing. Continue the debate. This crazy rush to please insurers without reasonable cost/benefit drives me nuts. hardly worth doing anymore. Damn hans hurts my collarbone - I can't imagine how that would feel in a crash. Show me the stats from other kinds of racing that justify this madness. The circletrack guys somehow have thousands of races annually without changing belts, seats, window nets etc. ever two minutes don't they? Are they dying off in droves?

SCCA would be better off strictly policing contact instead. Its no thrill to throw out thousands every time some hothead is a jerk and leans off you - getting to be like a demolition derby.

[ITEGT]

Heres my post about the Hybrid over on C-C.com.

I linked it because of all the pictures.

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=935181#post935181

If youre too lazy to click the link and are thinking about getting a Hybrid rage, be sure to order the M6 upgraded helmet latches and tethers. $65 more but well worth it.

The standard D rings are noisy and look like something I should hang the helmet up with, I called Safety Solutions and told them that too.

[Brettt]

Plus the SFI sticker date on the Rage was already a year old. When asking the SafeRacer dude for an exchange to the HANS, I requested a "fresh" sfi sticker... ...he said "it's like buying milk..."

I had the same thing happen to me, actually. The medium unit that I ordered showed up with a "Dec 2010" date stamped into the sticker. As the unit was new and there is NO reason in the world why I should have to pay to have it renewed a year earlier, I sent it back. They tried to give me some guff, not unlike they gave to you.

The main difference is that I talked to the guy at SafeRacer for a while and got them to RMA the unit in exchange of what should be a new one. The most recent email I've received said that while they (Simpson) didn't have any "new" units in stock, they sent it back to them and Simpson is currently putting a new SFI sticker on it and sending it back to me.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that they shouldn't do exactly that for anyone who buys a product from them that has an expiration date due to an SFI sticker. BE FIRM with them and you'll get a new sticker.

[BruceG]

I had the same thing happen to me, actually. The medium unit that I ordered showed up with a "Dec 2010" date stamped into the sticker. As the unit was new and there is NO reason in the world why I should have to pay to have it renewed a year earlier, I sent it back. They tried to give me some guff, not unlike they gave to you.

The main difference is that I talked to the guy at SafeRacer for a while and got them to RMA the unit in exchange of what should be a new one. The most recent email I've received said that while they (Simpson) didn't have any "new" units in stock, they sent it back to them and Simpson is currently putting a new SFI sticker on it and sending it back to me.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that they shouldn't do exactly that for anyone who buys a product from them that has an expiration date due to an SFI sticker. BE FIRM with them and you'll get a new sticker.

IMHO, I think we should all give a webseller like ogracing.com(an IT racer,as well) our business. I've had several run ins with Saferacer about items I've purchased,curt responses over the phone when I asked for a catalog, as there wasn't one with a recent order(now...What's up with that!!).

I think they have grown fat off of all of us...and forgotten customer service.

[924Guy]

+1 to that, especially a big thumbs up for OG Racing. I got my cage and fire system for the ITB car from them, and they've always been most excellent in customer service. They know how it's done right.

Saferacer, OTOH... not so much.