lexan widows

[manny]

This past week end i noticed some IT cars with lexan windows, i was wondering has this become legal or not? Would help to reach weight.:shrug:

[Chip42]

not legal*. where did you see them, sebring for the Turkey Trots?
*cars like the MR2 and fierro can replace the rear glass if the cage goes through it, but that's the only exception.

[Ron Earp]

There is/was a Porsche 911 in FL running ITR with lexan windows. Started right in front of me in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx31kJSsyJc

I can't remember if there are any others we saw with lexan, but I did see some shaved door handles in IT. I do remember thinking that "they do IT a bit different" in FL.

R

[Chip42]

there's definately a subset of our fair state that does IT differently. they tend to be from south FL and slow, so when they venture north or we venture south they get beat, and the cheating goes unaddressed. An ITR 911 simillar to the one you mention wasn't keeping ahead of Steve's ITB MR2 this weekend, for example.

I suppose the no-tech regional points races (CFR, not SARRC) has somethign to do with this.

I had a chat with the owner of one blatently illegal car this weekend. he's a long time acquaintence so it was a more pleasant conversation than it could have been. he didn't end up running (because the car was too slow on friday) but he had a wing, orange anodized Al control arms, brembo brakes, etc... and had no idea that any of it was illegal, and then defended it as saying the car was too slow for it to matter. I tried to explain the image that it presented about FL to the rest of the country, but he didn't really seem to care. I told him about ST and suggested he look into that next time.

[Knestis]

..."they do IT a bit different" in FL

Quoted for posterity.

K

[Ron Earp]

Quoted for posterity.

K

I've only been down to FL to race once and it was a lot of fun. Iconic track, good people, and we got to meet face to face a few of the regulars here and on the brown board.

I remember seeing a few odd things in IT. There was a 911 that had a full interior running ITR, I thought that was pretty cool and certainly not illegal. The full on race lexan window 911 that I mentioned, then I remember some shaved door handled car, along with one car employing a cold ram air intake. To each his own, but I'm not sure one couldn't find issues like that in other region's paddocks. FL just had so many cars in the ITR, ITS, ITA, ITB, IT7 run groups that chances are there will be some odd ducks in the mix and not necessarily from FL either.

[quadzjr]

Ron I know the 911 you were talking about. I told him about his window a weekend running sebring short course. I told him I have no dog in the fight but I think it should be addressed. I do not know when, but the issue was addressed. The car in yoru video was the same 911 that was there this weekend with normal glass. However it maintained the aluminum strpas for some reason?? I confirmed it when I was walking the paddock this weekend with my brother (first race he has attended and entering the double school in february)The car was WOAH fast in a straight line (at least compared to me in the ITB MR2) and WOAH slow in the corners. The driver was very courteous however and did not just drive around me every straight. At the end of the race I lost brakes and lost touch with the battle ahead of me.. I pointed him around and all was good.

There has been some blatantly illegal cars that we have addressed in the past that did not go over as well. An certain ITB CRX with a JDM D15 with vtec comes to mind.

The Daytona race is a big one.. easy to get to and often puts the entire IT field in one group. big turnouts. in 08' when I ran the ITA civic, and Christian(sp) was breaking in the ITA EF civic sedan, and Hoppe broke the track record (I think) in his ITA integra there was 88 IT cars on track not including ITC. So like you said do to the numbers.. it will be easy to find one that is illegal.

[manny]

well, even if i am one of the slower cars in ITB i will still develope and drive my heavy beast :D. i"ll do my best to beat you with a legal car. BTW one of the cars i saw was an ITB car with side and back lexan windows. What i dont like is that you have quests and family there to watch and enjoy the place and they see these other cars just flying around you and they ask why your not as fast and i try to explain to them that those cars arent legal and they look at you and say how do they get away doing that. i have no way of answering them. But in all i had a GREAT week end and i will be there no matter what. Big thanks to Mike Horn, great guy :023:

[Knestis]

Not to be indelicate but what is SUPPOSED to happen, is you protesting that guy who's illegal in your class. If you choose not to, that's fine (I've made that decision as recently as this year's IT 'fest) but don't be surprised if you don't do anything and "nothing happens."

K

[titanium]

Manny, I agree with you that it's a hard question to answer. During the weekend, the struggle just to get your own car on the track, puts limits on your time that makes the idea of protesting someone a difficult decision.

We don't have the GCR memorized. We would have to look up all the info on the protest procedure.
You spend an unknown amount of time tracking down the correct SCCA person to file a protest with.
Depending on what you protesting, a bond may be required.
You fill out the paperwork to file your protest. (did you get all the correct information ahead of time?)
Will you have to stay after the race? (Your wife and kids want to get home)
And so on....

Maybe its time for a "Protest short-form"?
Currently, when you register at a CFR event, you get 3 sheets of paper back at the window. A schedule for the weekend, A list of cars/drivers in your run group, and a 'drivers meeting' (sometimes).

I propose they give you two more sheets of paper.
1) a form to fill out to protest a cars equipment.
2) instructions for filling out the form.

Items that you could use this form on would be:
Lexan windows
Tires beyond fenders
Too low
Lolly-pop test for rotaries
Control arm
"Air" bushings
And so on...

This would not be for driver/crew conduct or for items requiring a bond to be posted.

Also, the SCCA official that you turn in the form to should wear a special hat (or something article of clothing) that identified him as the person to give the form to.

They would not have to do it at every race. Just regionals.
(The Nationals are a whole 'nuther thing)
If the competitor that is found in violation will be given till his next race to correct he car.
He will not be sent home, but that weekends points/trophy will be taken back, and he can still run in the remaining races that weekend under those conditions.

Just an idea....

[bhudson]

If you're wanting a paper trail on a driver, then the SCCA protest form is the only one the stewards can use. Otherwise, you having a friendly chat with your competitor is the alternative.

The SCCA Protest form is not that difficult. The form is available on the SCCA website, and at the event you can get one from either the Chief Steward or the Chairman of the SOM. Most stewards I know will guide you on how to complete the form. All you have to enter is the driver you're protesting and what part of the GCR is violated. The fee is nominal ($25 for regionals, $50 for nationals). A bond is usually only required if the inspection requires dis-assembly.

[quadzjr]

well, even if i am one of the slower cars in ITB i will still develope and drive my heavy beast :D. i"ll do my best to beat you with a legal car. BTW one of the cars i saw was an ITB car with side and back lexan windows. What i dont like is that you have quests and family there to watch and enjoy the place and they see these other cars just flying around you and they ask why your not as fast and i try to explain to them that those cars arent legal and they look at you and say how do they get away doing that. i have no way of answering them. But in all i had a GREAT week end and i will be there no matter what. Big thanks to Mike Horn, great guy :023:

Did you confront the other driver? I am not against talking to the driver you can PM me for specifics.. no matter if your first or last. The idea is to not cheat. Because it WILL matter to the guys behind you.

I did not see any ITB cars with lexan windows, with the exception of my own and my fathers (Both ITB MR2s) back windows. Like mentioned before, both are legal to have lexan rear windows as long as the cage goes through it. My brothers MR2 cages does not go back to the rear towers thusly he has a stock glass in place. There should not be any car in the ITCS with side glass lexan that I am aware of.

There was an ITA Fiero there.. I think that was the only other car this weekend that could qualify for the rear lexan.

[manny]

The vehicle in question was of the VW type and no i didnt confront him. I saw it while we were going to the end of the line after signing in. To me its not that important, doesnt the car get looked at while on the false grid? If they come in the top 3 wouldnt it be noticed during weigh in? I know my car is to heavy and would be nice to get it lower if we were allowed to use lexan. All in all i had a GREAT time and that is why i am a member in the SCCA, because of all of you :023:

[joeg]

Manny--Grid workers check general safety items and your personal safety gear--not the legality of the car.

Impound is generally the place of the tech steward's domain.

[Knestis]

Manny--Grid workers check general safety items and your personal safety gear--not the legality of the car.

Impound is generally the place of the tech steward's domain.

...and they won't typically look at ANYTHING unless they get a piece of paper specifically requesting that they do so.

K

[Greg Amy]

...and they won't typically look at ANYTHING unless they get a piece of paper specifically requesting that they do so.
Maybe true on a personal level, but not correct on a structural/political level. There's nothing in the regs that keeps a scrutineer from throwing paper on something non-compliant to the regs, certainly something safety-related. As a scru I'll point out non-safety-related non-compliant items to competitors often, letting them know that I'm simply bringing it to their attention and not taking action, but that unless they fix it I'll likely bring it to the attention of their competitors...

But, yes, on a personal level, generally speaking scrutineers are loathe to get involved in stuff like that unless prodded/requested/protested.

And, by the way, if time allows I'll also prowl the grid looking for items, too.

GA

[Matt93SE]

And, by the way, if time allows I'll also prowl the grid looking for items, too.

GA
But do you prowl the paddock at night with a flashlight looking under cars for things to protest? :018:
(we had a guy doing that at a race here.. ironically, his kill switch didn't work the next day and nobody said anything....)

[Greg Amy]

But do you prowl the paddock at night with a flashlight looking under cars for things to protest? :018:
I can neither confirm nor deny... ;)

[bhudson]

ironically, his kill switch didn't work the next day and nobody said anything....)

How was it found that the kill switch didn't work? Did someone need to use it and it didn't work?

[Matt93SE]

It was found in impound after the race... At the previous race, they DQ'd the class winner because his car didn't have one.. (his STU car blew an engine the day before, so he ran his SSB car in STU... and STILL won.)
so at his race, the guy had one and it didn't work, and he wasn't penalized.. Of course he immediately came out with the line "well it worked yesterday."

Of course it did.. Kill switches always randomly choose when to stop working and let the car still run...... :rolleyes:

[jumbojimbo]

At the Nelson Ledges race in Oct there was a SM with a checkered flag wrap across the back window. I couldn't see thru the front of the car, I couldn't see the driver's hands.

I debated about saying something to driver but finally just said something to tech at impound of the Sunday morning race. He said he'd check grid for the afternoon race. I only mentioned the window, the tech guy surmised for himself I couldn't see hand signals, etc and understood it as a safety issue, not a nitpick.

I wasn't sure if my action was mildly passive aggressive or not. I just didn't picture that having a word with the driver would be constructive, he obviously likes his window tint and no one has ever complained before...

[Matt93SE]

I agree with you there.. If tech didn't say anything, I would have said something to the competitor myself. But yeah, that's a safety issue-- I would think that's well within tech's realm of action.

[tderonne]

From the GCR:

9.3.53. WINDOWS
Windows shall be clear or uncolored, except in Production, Super Touring, Touring, and Showroom Stock if no factory or after market clear windows are available. Officials may require the replacement of windshields that are considered a safety hazard. All closed cars shall run with both front door windows fully open.

Doesn't explicitly say no graphics on the windows, but close.

[Matt93SE]

It says windows shall be clear or uncolored. a wrap covering the entire window would certainly make it NOT clear.
graphics with sponsor or driver names are a different issue.