ITS cars - which are the fastest?

[Bruce B]

I am interested in receiving some input on the subject of which cars are potentially the fastest for the ITS category....I realize I may get no response to my impossible question, or it may be like setting off a firework out there and I will get overwhelemed with passionate replies!
Thanks!

[CRallo]

In general? or in a particualar region? In the NE it seems to be 2nd gen Rx7's and E36? BMW's... 323 and 325? they all look the same to me, the BMW people can chime in on that one.

Those are the popular ones with a relatively well known "formula"

[frazer]

I agree with Chris. I'd say overall the 2nd gen RX7 and Bimmers are the ticket for ITS as those have the "well known formula". Nicely put Chris. That doesn't mean there isn't something else that can dominate the class, but at the moment... At Summit Point (WV) I remember seeing some fast Integra GSRs a while back. I originally built an ITS RX7, which to this day I regret selling. Once I did I bought my brother's wrecked BMW 325is and started working on it but time and money got the best of me and I had to let that go. The RX7 has always just fit me right. I raced motorcycles for a while but am currently shopping for a 2nd Gen RX7 to build another ITS car. Good luck with your shopping.

And to note... The 2011 ARRC races are going on right now. You can always watch the results and see what ends up where. Also, there's the obvious, that a good driver can win with a slower car.

[pballance]

FWIW the 2011 ARRC finishing order was,
BMW
BMW
BMW
Datsun
Nissan
Datsun
Nissan
Honda
Honda

Usually there are a couple of Mazda's in there, RX7's and Miata's. Kip Van Steenberg is really quick in his Miata. Then again, Jeff Young won the Southeast Division Championship in a TR7.

Fast is a relative term and in SEDIV you had better bring your A game with whatever weapon you choose. Good luck.

Paul

[Ron Earp]

In ITS there are many cars that can win and run upfront. We've discussed it a few times but the list is long:

325 (E36 and E30), 2nd G RX7, Integra GSR, Miata, 240Z, 260Z, 280Z, 280ZX, TR8, 300zx, and I'm hoping our ITS Mustangs will join that club. ITS is extremely diverse in the SE region and there are many top notch cars and drivers in the region.

Certainly the favorite formula cars are the BMWs and Mazdas, but there are certainly more choices than just those two.

[Knestis]

I'd propose that it's not the car make/model that makes a particular package fast. It's (1) the driver, (2) the technical understanding, and (3) the budget. Put the right driver in a well-developed, fully funded car and you're going to have a winner. And that applies pretty much to any IT class and geography.

Put differently, it's not possible to drive a poorly prepared ITS RX7 (for example) badly and expect to win in a region with any legitimate competition.

K

[CRallo]

Not to make any ASSumptions, what model are the Nissan's listed below? thanks!


FWIW the 2011 ARRC finishing order was,
BMW
BMW
BMW
Datsun
Nissan
Datsun
Nissan
Honda
Honda

Usually there are a couple of Mazda's in there, RX7's and Miata's. Kip Van Steenberg is really quick in his Miata. Then again, Jeff Young won the Southeast Division Championship in a TR7.

Fast is a relative term and in SEDIV you had better bring your A game with whatever weapon you choose. Good luck.

Paul

[Andy Bettencourt]

http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=69&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=55

:D

http://flatout-motorsports.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/ITS_RX_7_4dd430b7798ae_200x200.jpg

[CRallo]

Utterly shameless! :p

but arguably the top ITS car in the NE, ever! Too bad I'm poor...


http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=69&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=55

:D

http://flatout-motorsports.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/resized/ITS_RX_7_4dd430b7798ae_200x200.jpg

[Tom Donnelly]

Not to make any ASSumptions, what model are the Nissan's listed below? thanks!


300zx's. Both were fast with good drivers.

[JeffYoung]

I've raced for 7 years against the best of the best (in my opinion) in the SEDiv.

If I were selecting an ITS car now, I'd have two absolute prerequisites:

1. EFI

and

2. Four wheel disc brakes.

As people have listed above, there are a lot of chassis in ITS that can win, and as Kirk notes, given the right amount of driver talent, development time, and dollars, I'm not sure there are many cars in the ITCS that cannot compete.

If you want a proven, tried and true formula, then the 99 ITS Miata, the E30 BMW (the E36 still has the restrictor to develop around), or the RX7 are probably the ticket. The Z cars (up to the 280z) are a known quantity, fast and still competitive, but those carbs and drums...hmmmmm.....

PM if you'd like. Need to know more about what you want to do. For example, RX7s are fast, how to develop them is well known, but they have a lot of maintenance requirements and can be finicky. E30s are solid cars with no real weaknesses, a good choice if you just want to drive. Same with teh ITS Miata -- blindingly fast at some tracks but at a disadvantage at others. Porsche 944S? Perhaps unbeatable power but weak links in the motor.

And so on. If you want to develop a car, I have some ideas. Note that none of them are "TR8"....lol....If you want to just jump in and race, I have some other ideas.

[Bob Roth]

I am curious, in '09 Rob Huffmaster in a 2nd gen RX7 set a record at the ARRC doing a 1:38.3. the next four cars were running in the 41.9 - 42.5 range. Huffmaster was like on rails going through turn 1 up the hill. He was flying.

This year the winner was running at 43's. Of course there were no RX7's this year, but still the field seems slow, I didn't see rain so any idea why?

[JeffYoung]

No offense to the participants but the field was a bit light this year. Matt Reppert has run 41s at RA in the past, and I am pretty sure Zsolt/Trevor did so in the GSR this year in the ProIT.

But, I'm not sure there is anyone with Huffmaster's talent who has run in S at the ARRC in a long time, if ever. He does amazing things with that RX7.


I am curious, in '09 Rob Huffmaster in a 2nd gen RX7 set a record at the ARRC doing a 1:38.3. the next four cars were running in the 41.9 - 42.5 range. Huffmaster was like on rails going through turn 1 up the hill. He was flying.

This year the winner was running at 43's. Of course there were no RX7's this year, but still the field seems slow, I didn't see rain so any idea why?

[frazer]

Lots of good info here. I'll admit, I loved my 2nd Gen and the Flatout RX-7 for sale is awesome! Too bad my wallet can't swing it. As I was reading this, my wife saw the E30 BMW comment and got excited. She loves the E30 BMWs. Now she's all about wanting us to get an E30. Haha!!! Gotta love the support. :)

[Z3_GoCar]

I'd recommend going the other way, and get a '99-'00 323. The e-30 may be efi, but it uses a air flow meter that's uncompatible with any other ecu. The oil system is a weak link. Finally it uses the antique semi-trailing arms in the rear.

[JeffYoung]

I would respectfully disagree with that. In fact, an E30 just won the ARRC.....

The AFM can be dealt with. Megasquirt doesn't require it. You just leave it in, but disconnected, and use a MAP sensor.

The rear suspension design isn't perfect, but it's certainly the equal of the rX7 and the 240z, and better than mine (a live rear axle).

I think the E30 is probably one of the most balanced cars in ITS. Good brakes. Good engine (good power and good torque). Good gear box. Decent suspension.

[preparedcivic]

I'd recommend going the other way, and get a '99-'00 323.

This. These E46's are a 150 pounds heavier, but no SIR and with open ECU's the VANOs system is fair game to monkey with, for a bbbeeeeegggg power advantage.

[JeffYoung]

Just to clarify, the E46 323 is at 3000 bls, or 150 more than the E35 at 2850. The E30 is at 2750.

In other words, the E46 323 weighs 250 lbs more than the E30. That's a lot.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Add one vote for the E36/E46 stuff. An E30 may have just won the ARRC but did lets really put that into it's proper context. From what I have seen around here, you need a much sharper tool than an E30.

The 36/46's can out-produce their projected HP, especially when you grab hold of an adjustable cam or to with a good ECU. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the easy button is an S5 powered 2nd gen RX-7. Other cool cars to choose from for sure.

[JeffYoung]

The fully developed E46s I've seen (Irish Mike) and heard of (Autotechnic) are very, very fast. Never had one at the ARRC though I think, or did Mike come up one time? Not sure the dollars involved on a full tilt build though.

The E36 is a bit of an unknown quantity in ITS right now. Some think the SIR wouldn't be that much of a hinderance if fully developed. Others think it is an anchor.

I still think the E30 is a great choice. Good power, good torque, good brakes, decent suspension, and 2750. I've seen a few well prepped but by no means fully developed, and they have been very fast.

[gran racing]

2. Four wheel disc brakes.

Why? Testing was done at Road Atlanta (by either Peter or his brother) with rear discs versus drums. The drum brakes were good for a couple of mphs on the back straight.

Anyways, not that important to the conversation but thougtht it was interesting.

[JeffYoung]

Maintenance, reliability and pedal feel.

Drums stop just fine. For a while. Problems: at least on my car, failure mode is (a) session one, shoes look just fine; (b) session two, shoe is entirely delaminated or wheel cylinder has fallen to pieces.

With a drum brake you are CONSTANTLY working on it to get pedal feel right. And it's a trade off. You set the drum up to rotate nicely and get those mph, and you lose pedal feel. You set it up for pedal feel and you get rotational friction and lose the mph.

I hate the things honestly.


Why? Testing was done at Road Atlanta (by either Peter or his brother) with rear discs versus drums. The drum brakes were good for a couple of mphs on the back straight.

Anyways, not that important to the conversation but thougtht it was interesting.

[Andy Bettencourt]

And don't forget that test was on a FWD car where there is a ton of weight transfer under braking.

[Ron Earp]

Why? Testing was done at Road Atlanta (by either Peter or his brother) with rear discs versus drums. The drum brakes were good for a couple of mphs on the back straight.

Anyways, not that important to the conversation but thougtht it was interesting.

I don't know the players here and it is but a single data point, but what is the reasoning cited for why the drum brakes allowed a couple of mph advantage on the straight?

[JeffYoung]

I think the idea is if you set them up "loose" you get no rotational friction, meaning the shoes are backed off the drum slightly. Problem is, result is bad pedal feel.

With discs, you are always going to have some pad drag on the rotor.

[Ron Earp]

I think the idea is if you set them up "loose" you get no rotational friction, meaning the shoes are backed off the drum slightly. Problem is, result is bad pedal feel.


"Testing was done at Road Atlanta (by either Peter or his brother) with rear discs versus drums. The drum brakes were good for a couple of mphs on the back straight."

Man, that would be a really difficult test to orchestrate. I suspect the most practical way to do it would be to have a single car and convert from drums to disc brakes in the paddock and run multiple sessions back to back on the same day with the same driver with identically worn tires.

Or, maybe two cars, prepared exactly alike except for the rear brakes, and have the driver test them back to back.

However, in any of these scenarios I suspect the statistical variations in the measurement methods will result in a confidence interval that will exceed the absolute value of the measured parameter, i.e., it'll be lost in the noise.

Get yourself a car with EFI and four wheel disc brakes. Don't mess around with carbs and drums, been there and done it, a lot. It sucks.

[JeffYoung]

Absolutely. EFI and 4 wheel discs make for happy racers.

[frazer]

After thinking...I'm shopping for another 2nd Gen. Can't help it. I miss my old car and the comfort and confidence I had in it. Until I make the purchase I'll keep an open mind and my eyes out for whatever comes up.

[gran racing]

Agreed, probably not 100% perfect testing but I do think it has merrit. No matter what I've tried (new calipers included), I can't get rid of all pad drag. It's not horrible but it can be felt. Rotated an Accord with drums, and didn't have drag like mine.

[JeffYoung]

You can set them up that way (the drums) but you end up (at least on my car) with very poor pedal feel. I need the shoes out on the drums to get a good pedal.



Agreed, probably not 100% perfect testing but I do think it has merrit. No matter what I've tried (new calipers included), I can't get rid of all pad drag. It's not horrible but it can be felt. Rotated an Accord with drums, and didn't have drag like mine.

[Mazmarc63]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the easy button is an S5 powered 2nd gen RX-7. Other cool cars to choose from for sure.

I have loved my easy button for over 15 years.:happy204:

To address Mr Young's obvious envious statements about the Rx-7 - "but they have a lot of maintenance requirements and can be finicky".

I recently looked at the date of the parts bill for my last engine rebuild. March, 1997!! Not a typo. The engine in my Rx-7 was last rebuilt by Rob May when he worked at ISC over 14 years ago.

Yes, the gearboxes are the weak link but if you are smooth (= fast) you can get by with occasionally replacing synchronizers.

Yes, I am biased.:D

[erlrich]

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet, so I'll just throw it out there...


If you want the fastest ITS car, get an ITA Miata :023:

[Ron Earp]

I recently looked at the date of the parts bill for my last engine rebuild. March, 1997!! Not a typo. The engine in my Rx-7 was last rebuilt by Rob May when he worked at ISC over 14 years ago.



I suppose the bigger question would be engine hours, not engine age. How many hours since the last rebuild? And a big Bzzzzzzztttt if you don't have an hour meter with which to check....:)

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet, so I'll just throw it out there...


If you want the fastest ITS car, get an ITA Miata :023:

Wait until we build a 99+ for ITS!!!

[erlrich]

Wait until we build a 99+ for ITS!!!

I think it's amazing that they aren't tearing up ITS yet - given what the ITA cars are capable of, and the relatively small gap between ITA and ITS now, I would think a full-tilt, well-driven ITS Miata would be a force to be reconed with.

[JeffYoung]

I guess you haven't seen the ISC 99 ITS Miatas......

Did Kip win the ARRC one year in one?

They are basically unbeatable at momentum tracks like Roebling, and very hard to beat at a short twisty handling track like CMP.

At VIR, both Mike and Kip struggled.

[Ron Earp]

Wait until we build a 99+ for ITS!!!

Ron Munnerlyn has one here in the SE that I have driven and it is fabulous (although a bit soulless). If he scores another 15 hp with it, which I think is definitely possible, even the power rich TR8 will have to be concerned. Great balance, as always with the Miatas.

[JeffYoung]

That car and that driver with 15 more hp will be waxing us all. He was amazingly fastin the infield at Charlotte, and at Roebling (given that he was basically at SM power levels).

[Ron Earp]

I'm still going to unleash some domestic whoop ass on it. At least on the straights. For part of the straight. Well, maybe right at the beginning of the straight.

[CRallo]

I'm still going to unleash some domestic whoop ass on it. At least on the straights. For part of the straight. Well, maybe right at the beginning of the straight.

LOL (literally)

[JIgou]

If you're thinking about building an E46, get an ECU solution figured out before you get too far into the build. Double VANOS, both continuously-variable = potential for good power, but also means you're going to need a GOOD computer solution...and that ain't gonna be cheap.

The SIR on a weak E36 2.5 motor knocks 10hp/10ft-lbs off of it, and changes the AFR about 4 points (and I don't mean 13.8:1 to 13.4:1) across the board. Looks like a good Megasquirt build can control everything necessary with this engine, though, including the simpler "on-off" VANOS.

I honestly giggled in my helmet a couple of times when I jumped on the brakes in our E36 coming into the braking zone at T10 in Atlanta. If we can keep that RF from locking as easily in other spots (coming into T3 and T5 in Atlanta, for example), we'll be in good shape on the braking front.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I honestly giggled in my helmet a couple of times when I jumped on the brakes in our E36 coming into the braking zone at T10 in Atlanta. If we can keep that RF from locking as easily in other spots (coming into T3 and T5 in Atlanta, for example), we'll be in good shape on the braking front.

This is an issue that some people overlook when corner-weighting a car. Most go for the best possible cross weights at the expense of the Front L-R. I bet you could make a slight adjustment to that and be in a really good spot.

[JIgou]

This is an issue that some people overlook when corner-weighting a car. Most go for the best possible cross weights at the expense of the Front L-R. I bet you could make a slight adjustment to that and be in a really good spot.

We'll certainly be tweaking in that area, although there's not much difference (around 50 lbs, I think) between the two as it ran last weekend. Coming from a SM, I was really quite surprised at how close the side-to-side weights were. Of course, with 2900 lbs to spread around it's easier to have each wheel be similar. :D

Keeping the inside front on the ground probably wouldn't hurt on this car, and we're planning on playing with springs and bars up front to see if we can get that a little better. The shocks on the car are known for having limited droop travel, which doesn't help that situation....

[type r rocket]

Adding to Jarrods comments,the car we brought to the ARRC this year which finished 3rd on the podium was getting it's lunch handed to it on the back straight.Everywhere else it was pretty good,really good in fact,the brakes are awesome and handled like a dream except for the back straight.
Our real motor blew up ealier this year so we put a 80,000 mile junker with stock Vanos and all in to just make the race,after leaving the dyno we knew we were bringing a knife to a gun fight.We were at least 10 hp down,probably really 20hp from where it could be and needs to be to compete at the Road Atlanta.The car got to the 45's on Saturday and I think with another session could get to a 44 flat with what we had in it.
With that all being said,a real motor,some sort of real engine managment,some real dyno work and some time on track with the car next year and I think you'll some different results(except for 5 easy laps at our home track earlier this year last weekend was my first real laps in the car)Can a well prepped,well driven E36 get to the 38's at Road Atlanta,probably not by me but I damn well will be really close next year.
We were on old,some really old tires all weekend(Hoosier R6)and I want to say we were hundreds of pounds over weight.So yes we have a bit of work to do but I do think a E36 can be a good ITS car

[JIgou]

... I want to say we were hundreds of pounds over weight.

Minimum weight is 2850. I don't remember what your slip said after the race on Saturday, but it's possible you were only 100 or so lbs over.... :D

[JeffYoung]

I'm very interested in how this car does. I've always thought the BMW folks abandoned the E36 far too quickly after the SIR, and have considered this as a potential "modern" ITS if I ever get tired of farking with drum brakes.

[Z3_GoCar]

I'm very interested in how this car does. I've always thought the BMW folks abandoned the E36 far too quickly after the SIR, and have considered this as a potential "modern" ITS if I ever get tired of farking with drum brakes.

While I'd be sad to see you give up the TR, which BTW is one bad-azz odd-ball, I've got one word:

DOEEET!! :D

[benspeed]

I like the oddball too - 968 is heavy and pricey to run. If I wasn't a P car nut I'd be on the 36 but more likely the 46. My Autotechnic bros have got the computer figured at some insane five figure development but they make ITR power in ITS from extreme pro level hard work plus its a better chassis. If I was going ITS I'd do 323 all the way. 46 is the way for that class.

[JeffYoung]

What kind of power do they make?

[cjb25hs]

What kind of power do they make?

My thoughts as well Jeff. If they make R power in S, then maybe they need some more weight and while were at it maybe shave 50lbs off the TR8 and RX7 as well j/k on the weight shaving LOL!

[JeffYoung]

Spec weight on my car -- 2560 -- is under process power, but I run at 2680. Probably need to fix that in teh book too actually although I've got one more round of motor development to do.

There are two cars that wholly in my opinion -- opinion -- might be outside of process in ITS. 944S and 323. I don't have any evidence to back it up so they stay as is.

[gpeluso]

I'm interested in the power they make too....................i have a great ITS rx7. I also have a little BMW knowledge too.

Greg

[JIgou]

I like the oddball too - 968 is heavy and pricey to run. If I wasn't a P car nut I'd be on the 36 but more likely the 46. My Autotechnic bros have got the computer figured at some insane five figure development but they make ITR power in ITS from extreme pro level hard work plus its a better chassis. If I was going ITS I'd do 323 all the way. 46 is the way for that class.

A year ago when Dave and I were going through the "what should we do" decision process, I saw the Autotechnic cars and I'm pretty sure we chatted with them. They certainly had the ECU figured out, but the associated price spooked us.

In the last couple of days, as I've been digging into ECU options for our car for next year, I've learned that within the last 6 months or so a couple of folks have figured out how to run a double, continously-variable VANOS with a Megasquirt (the latest and greatest, of course).

Hmmm.... :D

[Ron Earp]

In the last couple of days, as I've been digging into ECU options for our car for next year, I've learned that within the last 6 months or so a couple of folks have figured out how to run a double, continously-variable VANOS with a Megasquirt (the latest and greatest, of course).



That will be a mean ITS car....

[benspeed]

I think over 200 all day but these are pro built

[gpeluso]

looks like most of the cars near you guys are probuilt.......................Some real fast bmw's in ITS and ITR. What do ITR E36 cars make then?? Or is it just weight related?

[RacerBowie]

The ARRC ITS champion E30 waves at you from Georgia, as it goes under the knife for an offseason of getting made significantly faster. :D

[JeffYoung]

New motor and shock package for me this winter...

Get that E30 to CMP and VIR next year!

See you guys at RA.

[RacerBowie]

New motor and shock package for me this winter...

Get that E30 to CMP and VIR next year!

See you guys at RA.

Sadly, Matt basically CAN'T travel. He's on call for his business 24/7... actually had to leave the ARRC twice to run out on service calls. He risks it once a year to go to Birmingham... but even then has to tow there with his work truck just in case. :(

[JeffYoung]

I don't believe it. I think he is just afeared of CMP...lol.

[RacerBowie]

I don't believe it. I think he is just afeared of CMP...lol.

Skeered of fire ants? :D

It's pretty funny to see him roll up in the International box truck to the race track with commercial dishwashing junk filling up the back of the truck. :blink:

[Bruce B]

As the originator of this thread, I want to Thank everyone who took the time and pitched in with their thoughts in response to my question, as I try to get a feel for the ITS landscape. And if any more want to respond of course that is great too. This forum rocks!