"Newb" Question on Track Safety

[EAPCPA]

I am pretty new to club racing. I have an ITS 260z for this year. Last March on Saturday, I wrecked it by myself at VIR turn 10 and blew the motor that same Sunday.
March memories was the race weekend, how could I forget.
This past weekend I raced at Charlotte with my newly repainted bodywork and rebuilt engine. I spent a lot of time and money due to my stupidity. At the race this weekend I heard there was one particular driver who was involved in three separate incidents during two separate races where the other drivers were unable to continue. What happens in this situation with the sanctioning body with a driver who is involved in so much carnage. I don't know if it could have been avoided or not but from the bench, it sounds like over aggression on the track. Don't flame me just throwin it out there.
I am a CPA, self employed and two kids in college. My spare time and cash is going toward my racing effort. If someone like that hits me and it is not my fault, is there recourse? I am staying out of the way of faster cars as I learn and sort my car but I can ill afford to be sent to the hospital due to an overly aggressive participant. Are those incidents reviewed and penalties assessed or is the driver at fault penalized in any way?
I understand that racing is risky and anything can happen but I need to weigh the risk in light of a uncontrolled driver putting the others at risk. equipment can be repaired or replaced but the human body is different. I am not willing to shell out the dough for a new helmet and head restraint next season if there is an uncontrolled driver at each event raising the risk level for all. I will go back to driving schools and maybe try autocross if there are no repercussions to control the testosterone level on track.

Just asking not trying to start a war between drivers who may have been involved.

[Knestis]

You have some opportunity for recourse through the driver/entrant protest process, but you have to protest a violation of a particular rule in the GCR (class rules). It's been my (fairly long) experience that the stewards generally won't act of their own accord unless it's a pretty blatant foul. And then, sanctions seem to be limited to "a good talking-to." Even if a protest IS filed, the consequences for on-track misbehavior are inconsistent.

BUT we get the culture that we want. If enough people are willing to make it clear that being a basher isn't acceptable, people will get the hint. That requires actually talking with people at the track.

You pretty much already know this but you have to assume that any time you go on the track, your stuff might be completely obliterated, through your fault, someone else's, or nobody's at all...

K

[RacerBill]

+1 what Kirk said. At the very least, the drivers who could not continue should have talked with the other driver involved. And after that, determine if a protest was warranted. At the regional level, the protest fee is very minimal, and it starts a paper (as opposed to vapor) trail on the driver with suspect conduct. There could always be extenuating circumstances, but at least start the paper trail.

[JeffYoung]

I've thought a lot about this one since it affects my class and the guys I run with.

I fully agree with Kirk that you have to be prepared to write off your stuff every time you go on track. But where that equation becomes skewed is when you start to beleive it is going to happen no matter what and it is going to be because of a particular driver.

At that point, one of the weaknesses of the SCCA (to me) is that we have an institution where policing of this conduct (at least in my region) is left primarily to the drivers. Like Kirk said, you get the culture you want.

In this case, I'm going to try to take the lead to get this sorted out among the drivers who race in ITS in the SEDiv. I've had several folks tell me (beyond just Ed) that they are concerned about making the investment in an ITS car and running with our group because of these incidents, and past incidents. This needs to get sorted or it is going to hurt us all.

Ed, that was a good post and no worries about reactions from anyone. You ask fair questions about how our group runs with each other. While at some point this is racing and you just have to "want" to do it, as we get into our 40s and 50s, the calculus changes some and the "want" to go racing gets outweighed by the cost of doing so. Where we have a situation in which body damage, etc. is pretty much guaranteed, then that balancing equation leans pretty heavily against racing.

The thing is we need guys like you to keep ITS strong and I hope we can clear this situation up so you continue with us.

Plus, that Z car is WAY too nice to waste at autocross...lol...and trust me, once you get it sorted and start running up front, the "highs" of racing will far outweigh what you get at a DE.

[Matt93SE]

Ed, you're not alone.
This was posted by one of our local racers/stewards after one guy punted at least three cars in two race groups over the weekend, and hit me as well (fortunately only a scrape on the bumper for me, but three others were taken out for the weekend.)

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12714

But yes. I completely agree. *something* needs to be done about the bad drivers. exactly what, I don't know, but something. How do you identify the bad driver vs. the guy that's just made two or three 'mistakes' in a season?
My first thought is that the guys getting hit need to protest. every time. whether they find this guy at fault or not. It starts the paper trail and when his name shows up enough, then maybe the stewards will begin to see the light and do something about it.

[seckerich]

I saw your car this weekend Ed and it is very nice. Did not get a chance to talk much because of my duties. We have a very good group we run with and a few recent incidents make it look bad on everyone. It is my understanding that action was taken this weekend but will wait until everything is posted because the stewards left before we got a full report. I ran my old ITS RX7 with the paint I put on it in 98 up until just before I sold it. I have raced with this group for almost 15 years with no problems. I am fully confident to go 2 wide with 99% of these drivers on any weekend and know they will not hit me. Anyone can get red mist and take you out, but it is the exception, not the rule. We are all too busy and have more respect than to take our friends out. I am just pissed that 2 guys I enjoy racing with had their season ended for no good reason. I understand the driver involved offered to help fix one of the cars, and if so that is a good gesture. Look forward to seeing you out with us again.

[JeffYoung]

I hope that is the case, and if so that is outstanding.


I understand the driver involved offered to help fix one of the cars, and if so that is a good gesture. Look forward to seeing you out with us again.

[EAPCPA]

Matt93SE that was a great thread. Thanks for that. And the other replies as well.

I do understand the risk and can accept a total loss on any given weekend, that's racing. It would be interesting to hear from one or several Se Div Stewards or Board members on this subject. Since I am new I am unfamiliar with the organizational structure and hierarchy of the organization but it would be good to know where the region stands on the issue and if they are going to allow it to go on until someone gets hauled off the track in an ambulance. I don't mean to keep bringing bodily injuries up but one of the driving schools I attended last fall had to have life flight from Duke and UNC come to VIR to pick up a driver and instructor due to a single car incident and it did not turn out well for either. They survived but recovery was extensive.

I understand(secondhand info) that the particular driver last weekend has had several incidents this season with others and 4 wheel offs too; so again, from the bench, it sounds like overly aggressive driving and for what, a wooden plaque? I will race with anyone if I know I can trust them to race clean and I hope my reputation with the other drivers on track is the same. There is incidental contact in racing and things happen, but during a season if you have four or five or more serious incidents then perhaps it is time to call a drivers meeting (the track track steward?) and discuss the rules with everyone. They do it at the pro levels and this is just club racing. We do it for the fun of it and the adrenaline of wheel to wheel racing or so I thought. It is the most fun I have ever had with my clothes on so far (I am 51). :eclipsee_steering:

This stuff reminds me of when my son played baseball in high school and two opposing parents started slugging it out, over a kid's game! Maybe a bad analogy but we are all just big kids driving fast cars. I have to grow old, I don't have to grow up.

[EAPCPA]

seckerich I was posting while you responded.

That is a great gesture to assist in the repairs. I will be back, I was chasing car issues all weekend and it really sucked. My goal was to see the checkerd flag and I did do that. Threw a belt in race 1 and overheated DNF, car wouldn't start on the grid for race two qualifying due to dead battery from lost belt in race one and vapor lock while sitting on the grid. Had carb issues during race two so I was running on three cyls for most of the race, pitted several times lost count but nothing obvious. Probably trash in the rear carb. It ran good maybe two laps but sputtered like hell the rest of the time. Monitored EGTs and gauges and continued while staying out of the way. Just wanted to see the flag since I did not see it back in March and this is the first race since all of the repairs were complete.

[JLawton]

The good news is this sort of behavior is rare. Usually those guys disaapear on their own after a year or two because the wrecks take a toll on them and their wallets as well.

Injuries: That's REALLY rare. My guess is the driver that got hurt had more horse power than skill and probably didn't have the full safety equipment?? You probably have a better chance of getting hurt driving on the highway than at the track.

Don't give up, it will get better! The car will start to run right (after all, it's not British), it will handle better and the driver will improve........ making it even MORE fun!!!

[Greg Amy]

Topic moved from "Southeast" to "General" as I think it's of interest to all... - GA

[jimbbski]

Most of my racing has been with MCSCC with a few SCCA races in past years. In MCSCC we try to race clean and did for many years with a few exceptions, until the introduction of the SM class.
Some of the drivers who raced there started to hit each other to gain a postion and then took to hitting cars not in their class just because they were "in their way".

It took awhile but the stewards finally came down hard on these "problem" drivers and as mentioned in another post these types of drivers tend to "go away" after a while anyway. (Perhaps in our case to SCCA. LOL)

The SOP in place in MCSCC now is that all contact must report to the stewards by the corner workers or by any driver involved by reporting to the stewards after the session or race that the contact occured in. If contact is reported by a corner and the driver fails to report to the steward the driver will be requested to report to the stewards over the PA.

At this point reports are taken from each involved party and the corner if it was observed by one. I can't comment on what actions take place after that but some are labeled "just racing", avoidable, or unavoidable.

The point here is that hopefully "every" incident of car to car contact is recorded and repeat offenders are noted by the stewards and some action, either official or unofficial can be taken to perhaps solve the problem.

From my near 25 year association with MCSCC I have observed that "bad drivers" don't stay long with us. I know that in SCCA which is a national organization with thousands of member, (I was one once.) you can't know everyone you race with and I think that is one of the reasons this problem seems to be more common there.
Some of the people I race with I have known for many years. Would you hit one of your best buds?

[924Guy]

We were starting to get more than our usual share of contact at Waterford Hills - an organization not unlike MCSCC. This year, a new rule was instituted - in addition to corner reports, all drivers involved in contact are required (with optional participation by uninvolved witness drivers) to submit a written contact report.

Lots of bitching, but nobody likes getting extra homework; seems to definitely have tamed some of the looser cannons in the paddock. Of course, we do have the advantage of continuity of officials and competitors, such that repeated patterns of behaviour are hard to hide.

I think the next plan in their arsenal will probably be to make the offending drivers write lines... "I will not..." LOL

[JeffYoung]

THIS is a good idea.


We were starting to get more than our usual share of contact at Waterford Hills - an organization not unlike MCSCC. This year, a new rule was instituted - in addition to corner reports, all drivers involved in contact are required (with optional participation by uninvolved witness drivers) to submit a written contact report.

Lots of bitching, but nobody likes getting extra homework; seems to definitely have tamed some of the looser cannons in the paddock. Of course, we do have the advantage of continuity of officials and competitors, such that repeated patterns of behaviour are hard to hide.

I think the next plan in their arsenal will probably be to make the offending drivers write lines... "I will not..." LOL

[Greg Amy]

THIS is a good idea.
+1.

[Terry Hanushek]

Vaughn


We were starting to get more than our usual share of contact at Waterford Hills - an organization not unlike MCSCC. This year, a new rule was instituted - in addition to corner reports, all drivers involved in contact are required (with optional participation by uninvolved witness drivers) to submit a written contact report.

Very interesting .... I may asked the Club Office to double our supply of witness statements for our next event.

Terry

[924Guy]

If you're gonna behave like naughty schoolchildren, you will be treated as such!

[lawtonglenn]

.

[DavidM]

Had my first contact at my last race. Luckily it was minor and I only wound up with two tire donuts on the side of the car and a small dent. Of course this was on my nice new tub and not the old crappy one. I thought it was completely unnecessary contact and was not happy about it. The guy wound up behind me in impound and he and I had a chat. I let him know I was not happy that he had run into me. He seemed totally unconcerned about it, which I didn't get. Nevertheless, he now knows that if he pulls the same crap on me again that we are going to have issues. The steward for our group talked to both of us. He asked if I wanted to file a protest and I told him no since it was minor damage, but that I was not happy about it and if it happened again I would be protesting. He talked to me before the other guy and I'm not sure what he said to him.

I think it's up to the drivers to create a culture that doesn't accept contact. If someone hits you then you need to let them know you're not happy about. If you say nothing then they're going to think it was ok. If it's bad enough then a protest should be filed. If it's repetitive then a group of drivers needs to have a discussion with that person. This is for fun and fixing busted chit isn't fun. Some people don't seem to get that.

David

[joeg]

Good post, Dave. Always confront the "contactor", although generally you do get an apology.

Bodywork is not fun. I can accept any kind of mechanical carnage, but not dents and dings (or worse) courtesy of another competitor.

[EAPCPA]

I appreciate the feedback from everyone.

After doing some research, in my region, if the contact is not protested at the track within 30 minutes, then there is no record of it anywhere even if you tube video exists it will be ignored. Therefore if you have a repeat "contactor" who only gets one protest per season and has this history over several seasons, it does not matter to our stewards because it never happened. I am told that some stewards will try to talk a driver out of filing the protest and just deal with it now. Then the paper trail is lost and it never happened once you leave the track.

There should be an incident report after each track session at least by the drivers involved for any metal-to-metal contact just to document the the incident. The stewards do not want to carry the extra paperwork burden and I understand that but if the procedure is in place I think the frequency of contact will be reduced and a repeat offender can/should be adequately dealt with.

David hit it right on the head:

I think it's up to the drivers to create a culture that doesn't accept contact.
If someone hits you then you need to let them know you're not happy about.
If you say nothing then they're going to think it was ok.
If it's bad enough then a protest should be filed.
If it's repetitive then a group of drivers needs to have a discussion with that person.
This is for fun and fixing busted chit isn't fun.
Some people don't seem to get that.

[Matt93SE]

Agreed. Also note though, that any time there is metal-to-metal contact on track AND IS WITNESSED BY A CORNER WORKER, then it's called in on the radio and recorded in the race log. If it was an actual HIT (more than just a bump/rub) or was a more obvious driving infraction, then written witness statements are given by the corner workers and can be used as evidence-- for all sides-- in a protest.

There are forms in all of our F&C corner packets for exactly this, and I've written many a statement similar to the following:

"On corner 10 entry, Car 12-white blocked/turned in on car 34-red, causing 34 to contact 12's right door and rear corner. Car 12 then spun center track due to contact. Car 34 went off track driver right to avoid additional contact. Both cars then continued. Visible damage to both cars from contact."

Something to that effect will be in the F&C logs AND will be in the radio logs for race control if it was called in by workers.

Now... if nobody protests this contact, nothing will happen, even though it was witnessed by corner workers and noted in the logs. The Steward has the option to do something to the driver(s), but almost always will leave it be if nobody protests.

[Ron Earp]

Now... if nobody protests this contact, nothing will happen, even though it was witnessed by corner workers and noted in the logs. The Steward has the option to do something to the driver(s), but almost always will leave it be if nobody protests.

Color me simple, but I think this SOP for steward behavior is a failure to the club and its members. There can be many reasons why a driver may not protest another driver. Probably first and foremost is that most drivers I've spoken with feel that protests come to nothing and aren't worth the time and hassle, i.e., nothing is ever accomplished.

I feel that stewards should always investigate metal to metal contact and that there should be a probation system in place for repeat offenders that is used early and used often. But I'm not a steward, maybe actually using these tools is a royal pain in the ass for a steward and if that is the case then the process should be changed. There needs to be a simple to use process for stewards to take action against drivers that are involved with contact.

EAPCPA, in response to your original question I have not heard anything about the incidents at CMS a couple of weeks ago. I suspect that nothing was actioned. Unfortunately, I think this means that they essentially never happened should they be brought up in conjunction with a future incident.

[JeffYoung]

FWIW, NASA is far more proactive about penalties for metal to metal conduct. In fact, based on what I have seen, way more proactive than they should be -- witness the brown board saga of a guy who drove his line in the uphill esses and got hit by a car that went off line and came back, and got DQ'ed.

There needs to be a happy medium.

[Ron Earp]

FWIW, NASA is far more proactive about penalties for metal to metal conduct. In fact, based on what I have seen, way more proactive than they should be -- witness the brown board saga of a guy who drove his line in the uphill esses and got hit by a car that went off line and came back, and got DQ'ed.

There needs to be a happy medium.

One example of NASA going off the deep end doesn't equate to a perceived history of non-actions by the SCCA.

Clearly I don't know the score since I don't race in NASA, but I imagine few of us have a truly accurate picture of how the organizations compare with metal to metal infractions.

Isn't the PCA agressive with their contact rules?

[JeffYoung]

Sure.

But I have learned a fair amount about their procedures and read their rules after that thread. They have pictorial diagrams about what constitutes "fault" in particular instances that don't make a lot of sense to me. They do give the stewards far more authority to initiate action, which can be good and bad.

There's good and bad to both systems from what I've seen. I think a happy medium is a more driver driven incident review and probationary period system. That seems to be lacking in both systems. Peer review I think is the better way to do this, bringing actual racer experience to the incident AND giving the supervisory group some flexibility to deal with the myriad of situations that develop on track.


One example of NASA going off the deep end doesn't equate to dozens of non-actions by the SCCA. Clearly I don't know the score since I don't race in NASA, but I imagine few of us have a truly accurate picture of how the organizations compare with metal to metal infractions.

[JeffYoung]

BMWCCA and PCA are "no fault" systems with a 13/13 rule. Their culture of metal to metal contact is very different as a result, they don't tolerate it at all and you get 13 months on the sidelines if you do it twice (even if not your fault).

I think that is correct, but would need to check.


One example of NASA going off the deep end doesn't equate to a perceived history of non-actions by the SCCA.

Clearly I don't know the score since I don't race in NASA, but I imagine few of us have a truly accurate picture of how the organizations compare with metal to metal infractions.

Isn't the PCA agressive with their contact rules?

[seckerich]

You would be wrong about Charlotte, action was taken. Stewards for the group 2 race Saturday did initiate action and then dropped it after the driver involved filed a protest. Saturday was deemed a racing accident because the protesting driver lost his protest. The driver that was hit did not file counter protest. System was used properly.

Sunday protest with contact resulted in a penalty to the driver that was protested and it will be released after the appeal period is up and the matter is settled. Again the system worked.

You have 2 choices here guys. You either want the stewards to run the show from pit road and do all the police work, or you use the protest process when things get out of hand. Most bitch if the stewards are too harsh and step in, then complain that nobody else will protect them. Everyone thinks the stewards should see everything and can not understand when a decision does not go their way. All the stewards are ALLOWED to do is review the evidence they are presented, without pre conceived notions, and make their best decision. They look at video, check corner reports, and have witness statements. I wrote a witness statement for the Saturday race as I about got collected in that mess. We are convinced we saw what we saw and that is fine, just be sure to have the proof. These are usually our friends we race with and we try not to be a jerk and protest when a simple conversation will usually do the trick. Sometimes it may take a group of drivers to have a sit down with an offending driver. Either way it is in the end the drivers responsibility to use the process if there is no other way to solve the situation. This last statement is in general and not aimed at the Charlotte incident that started this thread.

[Matt93SE]

Color me simple, but I think this SOP for steward behavior is a failure to the club and its members. There can be many reasons why a driver may not protest another driver. Probably first and foremost is that most drivers I've spoken with feel that protests come to nothing and aren't worth the time and hassle, i.e., nothing is ever accomplished.

I feel that stewards should always investigate metal to metal contact and that there should be a probation system in place for repeat offenders that is used early and used often. But I'm not a steward, maybe actually using these tools is a royal pain in the ass for a steward and if that is the case then the process should be changed. There needs to be a simple to use process for stewards to take action against drivers that are involved with contact.

Agreed. There are instances where it was simply a racing incident and both parties talked it out. I've never had more than incidental front-rear contact in a corner, but for a side-side, there has to be a true lack of legit racing room and 100% at-fault before I'll protest another driver. If it's close-quarters racing and I leave 1 car width +1" and the guy makes a bobble and rubs on a door? Then that was my fault for not leaving wiggle room in there. OTOH, if I'm leaving room and a guy completely FUBARS a corner, nails my door, and punts both of us? yeah, we'll be chatting with a steward after the race.