PDA

View Full Version : STL : National ?



TStiles
08-13-2011, 06:25 PM
Looks like STL has 160 regional entries nationwide thru July 31

If you look at National participation , that would put STL about 20th in terms of participation.

It's too hot in my garage , so I'm taking a break and wondering ... Will STL be National in 2012 ?

Greg Amy
08-13-2011, 06:29 PM
Workin' on it. Write your CRB/BoD representative.

Rabbit07
08-15-2011, 08:11 AM
The goal has always been to have STL be a National class. As Greg stated, please write and request it.

Greg Amy
11-08-2011, 03:19 PM
Bump.

If you have an opinion on Super touring Light going National - pro or con - now's the time to talk. It is vitally important that you make your opinion known to your Board of Directors representative:

http://www.scca.com/about/?cid=44417

Email, call, or write them, let them know. Do it now!

GA


I believe Super Touring Light would be a great addition to SCCA's National racing program.

- Cars come from one of the fast-growing, and ever-popular segment of the automotive population.
- There are tons of these cars out here, and they're very popular with the younger crowd.
- Allows a large segment of the existing DOT tire-based racers (e.g., Improved Touring) to dip their toes in National racing.
- Gives sanctioning regions more opportunities for entries for their National race weekends, where the DOT cars are not competing against slick-tire cars.
- Once new fuel economy regs and "B Spec" cars take off in the general population, 2L cars will become "the new mid-size" cars.

In the "good old days" of World Challenge (circa 1999-2004 or so) the most popular of the two categories was Touring. This was because the cars were identifiable as "attainable" by their fans, and carried a level of modification that was, in itself, perceived as "attainable". Remember the fury over Roger Foo, "the every man like you and me," winning that Touring Car race at Laguna Seca in 2001 and what excitement it caused? Anyone remember who won Mosport or Road America?

That's Super Touring Light.

And even World Challenge has tacitly admitted as such; it wasn't too soon after that WCT "went off the rails" and started allowing sequential transmissions, custom-fabbed manifolds, significant suspension pickup relocation, big engine mods, and costs skyrocketed. What didn't skyrocket along with it was audience interest: while the cars became more like British Touring Cars (remember the failed North American Touring Car series?) they were no longer something that Dave and Kai could potentially participate in (regardless whether they actually would or not). To resolve this, World Challenge renamed the modified monsters GTS and created a new Touring class...made of every day attainable cars with every day attainable mods. Guess in which of its three classes World Challenge is seeing the most growth...?

That's Super Touring Light.

Support bringing STL into the National racing program.

23racer
11-08-2011, 03:41 PM
Greg, keep in mind that it was after the turn of the century that things went off the rails as SCCA Pro decided it wanted a diversity of cars in the fields and also started courting the manufacturers (i.e. certain black 4 door sedans that everyone at the time decried allowing in with the allowed mods). To equalize the field some, they picked a benchmark car and allowed everyone else to either mod the h3ll out of their pigs ear or artificially slowdown their gazelle to equalize the cars. That is why some cars like mine have a bunch of mods that don't fit within the spirit of STU any longer.

I also think that the growth of the Touring class has to do with the general lack of free discretionary income and available sponsor $$$$. For example, look at the rapid growth of B-Spec. Every Pro Sedan Series and sanctioning body will have a class soon for those cars. Cheap and easy to build and still mostly street legal in a pinch.

Eric

dickita15
11-08-2011, 05:30 PM
It appears that the Bod will have this as a discussion item on December 2 & 3rd.

mossaidis
11-08-2011, 06:42 PM
Dick, you should have an email pledging my support for STL as a National class in 2012. :)

JS154
11-27-2011, 12:58 PM
It appears that the Bod will have this as a discussion item on December 2 & 3rd.

My letter in opposition to STL as a national class was supposed to be withdrawn. FWIW, I have reversed my opinion and support STL as a National Class..
-Eric Heinrich

Greg Amy
12-02-2011, 10:08 AM
One last plea....tomorrow the SCCA Board of Directors meets, and one of their agenda items is a discussion of Super Touring Light as a National class to supplement its National brethren Super Touring Under and Over. This move has strong support from the Club Racing Board.

Please write to your BoD rep supporting STL as a National class for 2012.

Greg

Andy Bettencourt
12-02-2011, 10:10 AM
I fully support new concepts in classing and I think STL could work. But take away the SM double dippers and you don't have squat. I hope I don't see any STL supporters bashing any other classes that have no real subscription.

mossaidis
12-02-2011, 10:47 AM
ahh.. you have some IT (non miata) double dippers too. There is a lot of chatter in my circles about building a full STL car, only... and only if it goes national.

dhardison
12-02-2011, 11:06 AM
One last plea.... Please write to your BoD rep supporting STL as a National class for 2012.

Greg

Email sent to our area 4 director in support of STL as a National class.


.....about building a full STL car, only... and only if it goes national.

x2

Greg Amy
12-02-2011, 11:24 AM
.....about building a full STL car, only... and only if it goes national.

x2
x3. This is exactly what I'm hearing from others, which is why I'm not worried about the whole "double dippers" argument; I see it as a red herring. It's just a "gut feel" from talking to others, but I get the impression that this class will explode once it goes National, but absent National status it will remain, really, just as a place for double dippers.

I'm actually pretty dismayed to see the "2.5 rule" go away; I think the concept is actually a good thing for the Club overall, forcing our leaders to accept a pre-determined, non-political result (if we only had the cojones to follow through). The only problem I see with it is that it doesn't allow Regional Only classes to compete for that rule on the same playing field.

I have actually suggested to the CRB and some BoD members that all classes* be given "National Status", and the 2.5 rule be used to decide who goes to the Runoffs**.

We'll see what happens tomorrow.

GA


* Unfortunately, this does not include Improved Touring. I say this NOT because I don't want to see IT go National -- I've actually been a passive supporter of that idea(l) from the start - but because various factions, both within IT and without, do not want IT National, period. My arguments for "all classes" are limited to those that wish to have National status but do not purely due to participation numbers.

** For STL specifically, I suggested that this class could be used used as the initial entry for this idea: make it National, let it run the National program without a guarantee for a Runoffs berth, and for the first year or two of eligibility the top STL competitors could be invited to the Runoffs as grid fillers for STU as an exhibition class. No guarantee you'll get a berth, but if there's some spots left over in the STU group - which will have its own group in 2012 - then STL guys can show up. From there on STL would be on-par with the rest of the organization, succeeding or failing purely on its participation numbers.

This same idea could be used for any other class/category looking to go National. Don't know if that got any traction...

Butch Kummer
12-02-2011, 11:52 AM
A month ago I sent a note to the entire BoD stating my support for STL getting National status and received a response from the Chairman saying (and I paraphrase), "The BoD is VERY reluctant to add any new National classes at this time."

I've said this before, but as a race organizer I don't care nearly as much about number of classes as I do the number of run groups. If somebody comes to me saying they want a Spec Yugo class (see ITT) I'm all for it if they have at least two buddies that are willing to race as well.

I hear all the time about "we keep adding classes so everyone gets a trophy" but I don't buy that. If you really look at the various classes (beyond lap times) you'll see very different philosophies behind each one. FE, FC, and FM all run similar lap times and are all open-wheel cars, but (a) they achieve them in different ways and (b) they appeal to different types of customers. If we combine those three into one class we run the very real risk of having half the entries we currently have because folks find different outlets for their passion.

Bottom line - STL gives those that want to run their IT cars at the Run-Ons a chance to do so plus gets rid of some of the "gotchas" that might be keeping people out of IT today. Getting more people on the race track is never a bad thing...

Matt93SE
12-02-2011, 12:24 PM
I fully support new concepts in classing and I think STL could work. But take away the SM double dippers and you don't have squat. I hope I don't see any STL supporters bashing any other classes that have no real subscription.


ahh.. you have some IT (non miata) double dippers too. There is a lot of chatter in my circles about building a full STL car, only... and only if it goes national.

Exactly.. If STL goes national, the first couple of years are going to be double-dippers, just like STU. STU's cars are now built for the class with a very few IT and SM cars double dipping. The first year or so, it was a different story.

TStiles
12-02-2011, 12:38 PM
Exactly.. If STL goes national, the first couple of years are going to be double-dippers, just like STU. STU's cars are now built for the class with a very few IT and SM cars double dipping. The first year or so, it was a different story.

When STL goes national , I'll just remove the ITA stickers and replace with STL.

As the class develops , I'll do the development to present a proper STL car.

NORRIS
12-02-2011, 04:04 PM
Speaking of the 2.5 rule. Maybe I missed this, but I'm surprised I haven't seen this pop up yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wD-NUjVMJc

Greg Amy
12-02-2011, 04:21 PM
Speaking of the 2.5 rule. Maybe I missed this, but I'm surprised I haven't seen this pop up yet:
Uuuhhh...hey NORRIS, you a spambot? No? Then reply to me what class comes between ITA and ITC, not only in letters but in total awesomositation?

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29951

GA, finger quivering over the "ban spammer" button...

;)

NORRIS
12-03-2011, 03:30 PM
Greg.

It's ITR....... No! It's ITS........ Wait ITB........ That's it ITB....... That's my final answer. I got it with no help from a friend!!

Just because I post a funny Youtube(Robert and I think it's funny anyway) about the topic being discussed, does that make me a Spambot?

It's not like I've never posted or I'm selling you ways to make your penis, breasts or mortgage bigger.

Please don't turf me........... I'll behave.............Honest

Greg Amy
12-03-2011, 04:26 PM
Just because I post a funny Youtube(Robert and I think it's funny anyway) about the topic being discussed, does that make me a Spambot?
No, in that post above you wrote "I'm surprised I haven't seen this pop up yet" when you yourself posted that same video in another thread, saying "it was only a matter of time" (see the link I put above.)

Also, notice the smiley face...?

You must be getting old.

GA

NORRIS
12-05-2011, 04:54 PM
To Greg and everyone. My most humble apologies!!

I guess I must be getting old. I obviously totally forgot that I posted that the first time. PLUS it took me a day to realize that you even showed me the first link and I still didn't catch on.

Maybe I had been over indulging in my sponsors product?

Once again, very sorry, my bad.

Now back to your regular programing

mossaidis
12-05-2011, 05:22 PM
since you are open to comments, check out your signature. You repeat the car number, class and brand/model twice... for the most part :)

NORRIS
12-05-2011, 05:38 PM
since you are open to comments, check out your signature. You repeat the car number, class and brand/model twice... for the most part :)

HA!!!

Gotcha there!!

I've got TWO BMWs!!

They both are #07 and were built to ITR rules.

Nice try:)

You get an A+ for effort

mossaidis
12-05-2011, 05:47 PM
IT's OFFICIAL!!!!!

For Immediate Release

SCCA Includes Super Touring Lite in National Club Racing Program

TOPEKA, Kan. (Dec. 5, 2011) – Sports Car Club of America’s Board of Directors approved the addition of the previously Regional-only Super Touring® Lite (STL) class to National competition in 2012. STL will be included as a separate class for events during the season and then participate within the Super Touring® Under (STU) class at the National Championship Runoffs®.

Super Touring Lite represents a significant group of cars not currently able to compete in the SafeRacer SCCA National Racing Series. The class features cars less than two liters in displacement with permitted engine swaps, aerodynamic components such as wings and splitters, brake upgrades and aftermarket suspension components riding on DOT-approved tires.

For 2012, STL will run in each National race, grouped with STU but counted separately as any other National-level class. Drivers qualifying for the National Championship Runoffs in STL will be invited to compete in STU with their STL cars.

The intention is for STL to have its own National Championship race in 2013, in conjunction with planned class realignment in the Super Touring, Touring and Showroom Stock categories.

JohnRW
12-05-2011, 05:54 PM
** For STL specifically, I suggested that this class could be used used as the initial entry for this idea: make it National, let it run the National program without a guarantee for a Runoffs berth, and for the first year or two of eligibility the top STL competitors could be invited to the Runoffs as grid fillers for STU as an exhibition class. No guarantee you'll get a berth, but if there's some spots left over in the STU group - which will have its own group in 2012 - then STL guys can show up. From there on STL would be on-par with the rest of the organization, succeeding or failing purely on its participation numbers.


http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/wertham/Claire_Voyant_04.jpg

Greg Amy
12-05-2011, 06:40 PM
Just call me Claire... ;)

(Honestly, I didn't know that in advance. Really...)

Full release:
http://www.scca.com/news/index.cfm?cid=50891

On edit:
Ok, no more excuses. Get back to the garage and start building some STL cars!

JeffYoung
12-05-2011, 07:16 PM
Congrats guys. Good work.

TStiles
12-05-2011, 07:27 PM
There goes my kids inheritance

Prof. Chaos
12-05-2011, 07:28 PM
While STL becoming a National class is very cool, I can't help but wonder why this wasn't done from the get go. In my case, the ITA car I was going to build into an STL car got sold to fund an STU build -- I didn't see any point in going from a Regional class (ITA) to another Regional class (STL). Had STL been National from the beginning, I would have never sold the ITA car and I would have run the 2011 season in STL instead of STU in an IT car.

So this makes it 29 classes at the 2012 Runoffs?

Ron Earp
12-05-2011, 07:38 PM
So this makes it 29 classes at the 2012 Runoffs?

Jeebus.

Greg Amy
12-05-2011, 07:55 PM
So this makes it 29 classes at the 2012 Runoffs?
Haven't counted them but...a conditional "no". As I understand it, with the dispensing of the 2.5 rule the BoD has given the CRB authority to make the decision on who can go the Runoffs. I am not privvy to any specifics, but I'm inferring that the CRB will take that authority and ensure that the Runoffs has a reasonable number of groups (for maximum track time) as well as a reasonable number of classes/entries to best use those groups.

<Greg's completely unqualified opinion>
This will probably mean that a lot of groups will be combined; read: smaller entry numbers will likely be combined into same groups, a la STL with STU for 2012. Really lower-entry classes will possibly retain their "National" status but not be invited to the Runoffs at all (so fewer classes overall). If, how, when, where this will be done I'm sure is under discussion.
</Greg's completely unqualified opinion>

What it means for STL, specifically, for 2012 is that we can compete as STL during the year, and I think we can crown Divisional STL champions, but when we go to the Runoffs in September we will be entered as STU cars. As such, we will not have a STL National champion until 2013, though I will plan on spearheading some informal effort to visually identify all cars in the STU group that mutually agree to prep to the lesser STL rules (versus wider mods of STU) and we'll have our own "informal" champion (likely crowned with lots of beer.)

For 2013 we go for it.

I encourage IT and SM competitors to continue to enter STL and STU as double-dippers, and when you're ready to build a full-up STU and/or STL car, feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Now, since I'm kinda feeling like the dog that somehow finally caught the postal truck and suddenly realizes he actually doesn't know what to do with it, I think I'll go into the garage and rub my car.

GA

Prof. Chaos
12-05-2011, 08:02 PM
What it means for STL, specifically, for 2012 is that we can compete as STL during the year, and I think we can crown Divisional STL champions, but when we go to the Runoffs in September we will be entered as STU cars. As such, we will not have a STL National champion until 2013, though I will plan on spearheading some informal effort to visually identify all cars in the STU group that mutually agree to prep to the lesser STL rules (versus wider mods of STU) and we'll have our own "informal" champion (likely crowned with lots of beer.)

For 2013 we go for it.

When I read the press release, I missed that. What a weird hybrid approach -- the CRB is certainly getting creative.

So how embarrassing for me will it be at the Runoffs when an "STL" car beats my STU car?

Mrsideways
12-06-2011, 03:39 PM
Lol, Darn, I won't have enough time to get a k20 into a NSX by sebring though. :happy204: Excited to see it go though!

Rabbit07
12-07-2011, 09:32 AM
Lol, Darn, I won't have enough time to get a k20 into a NSX by sebring though. :happy204: Excited to see it go though!

We have to add the NSX to the List.........:D

No, seriously.

Mrsideways
12-07-2011, 11:01 AM
We have to add the NSX to the List.........:D

No, seriously.

I was just thinking of Funny cars to put little motors in. Like a Viper with a neon motor.

1stGenBoy
12-07-2011, 02:35 PM
Since the CRB killed our GTL cars with a smaller (again) restrictor and we have no chance of winning anylonger I, think I'll get the old ITB car out and run some STL races. Heck Road America is only an hour away so why not? Maybe even treat the old girl to a fresh cylinder head and some new brake pads...
I know I have no chance of doing well with it in STL but this is supposed to be fun! Right?

Matt93SE
12-07-2011, 08:14 PM
You could say the same with the GTL car too...


I know I have no chance of doing well with it in GTL but this is supposed to be fun! Right?

Just saying. :)

lateapex911
12-07-2011, 09:10 PM
Since the CRB killed our GTL cars with a smaller (again) restrictor and we have no chance of winning anylonger I, think I'll get the old ITB car out and run some STL races. Heck Road America is only an hour away so why not? Maybe even treat the old girl to a fresh cylinder head and some new brake pads...
I know I have no chance of doing well with it in STL but this is supposed to be fun! Right?

So why not race an ITB can in, ummm, ITB??

Matt93SE
12-07-2011, 09:56 PM
Because then he'd have to slum it with those damn Regional drivers, DUH!! :D

LD71
12-08-2011, 12:25 PM
"SCCA Includes Super Touring Lite in National Club Racing Program"

Let the watering down continue! More classes, yeah that's what we need! And let's make more classes within a class to make it even more ridiculous-STL is on it's own or is it part of stu? Better yet I suggest we have a special 'National Champion' Miata STL class for double dippers--how appropriate, Still More class!

I was almost ready to pull the trigger on getting back in, this seals it, the club has lost the concept of a lot of drivers racing in the same class to determine a worthy champion. There may be a bunch of folks supporting these tiny slices of the competitive pie at first, but no one at the helm understands that there are a limited # of competitors to run a National season and go to the runoffs.

Best to wait and see if SCCA can come back from the insanity before committing to the class of the month.

LD71 :D

1stGenBoy
12-08-2011, 01:13 PM
So why not race an ITB can in, ummm, ITB??

Well Jake... I don't see IT listed as a National class :shrug:and since the two races I want to do are Nationals..
How are things? Been awhile since we talked..

1stGenBoy
12-08-2011, 01:15 PM
You could say the same with the GTL car too...



Just saying. :)

True my friend but we were competitive until this year.... Just going for the fun factor now. Plus the IT car is waaaaaay less expensive to run per weekend than the GTL car.

mossaidis
12-08-2011, 02:12 PM
"SCCA Includes Super Touring Lite in National Club Racing Program"

Let the watering down continue! More classes, yeah that's what we need! And let's make more classes within a class to make it even more ridiculous-STL is on it's own or is it part of stu? Better yet I suggest we have a special 'National Champion' Miata STL class for double dippers--how appropriate, Still More class!

I was almost ready to pull the trigger on getting back in, this seals it, the club has lost the concept of a lot of drivers racing in the same class to determine a worthy champion. There may be a bunch of folks supporting these tiny slices of the competitive pie at first, but no one at the helm understands that there are a limited # of competitors to run a National season and go to the runoffs.

Best to wait and are if SCCA can come back from the insanity before committing to the class of the month.

LD71 :D

Do we have a Emoticon for someone flaming on another's forum? Or perhaps a emoticon for a broken record player? Or how about a self-serving "SS/T is better than IT/ST" one? all three would apply.

LD71
12-08-2011, 04:21 PM
Mickey
Yep, I'm consistent, you can call it a broken record if you like, but remember I love IT , it is quickly becoming the only legitimate sedan racing in SCCA. I enjoyed IT the first time Phil Hunt brought his Volvo to LRP, and i loved racing IT when i ran several cars in the category for a few years
I'm not even against st in and of itself. It's the band aid approach of SCCA I dislike, it is destroying competition in favor of getting enough entries at the Runoffs.
The Nat SCCA org needs a large # of entries at the Runoffs as those entry fees go to Topeka. It doesn't matter that the competition in each class suffers, just get enough entries to fund the org.
I've been asking the bod and crb for years to make a real plan that makes sense ( including IT) and volunteered to help. Instead they put more band aids in place and come up with a new class every 2 months.
LD71 :D

mossaidis
12-20-2011, 01:50 PM
Larry, are in support of removing the National/Regional split for GCR class then? To some degree STL was born as an IT-next-step-w/o-going-Prod and "here's your chance to race National".

Interestingly, I didn't hear complain about Spec-B as being "another class".

Remember, it's a bad ecomony and club racers are an endangered species unless they oddly evolve to the pro ranks....

Knestis
12-20-2011, 05:36 PM
Good question there about B-Spec. It kind of weaseled into the National picture by being subsumed into SSC.

K

Terry Hanushek
12-20-2011, 06:11 PM
Mickey


Interestingly, I didn't hear complain about Spec-B as being "another class".

B Spec will not be a new class - it is being integrated into SSC. There is considerable discontent in the Touring / Showroom Stock world but it is not necessarily directed at B Spec.

Terry

mossaidis
12-21-2011, 01:01 AM
Terry, you are technically correct - it is not another class, yet it's "another class". My apologizes if I come as flaming, it's not my complete intent. By the sounds of your post, it would suggest that you might know what T/SS drivers are discontent about. Can you elaborate? Is it in the same vein of Larry's first post?

Terry Hanushek
12-21-2011, 02:01 AM
Mickey


you are technically correct - it is not another class, yet it's "another class". My apologizes if I come as flaming, it's not my complete intent. By the sounds of your post, it would suggest that you might know what T/SS drivers are discontent about. Can you elaborate? Is it in the same vein of Larry's first post?

I didn't view your post as a flame at all. The Showroom Stock / Touring discontent has resulted from a general lack of stability and long range planning in the categories. T3 was slated to be dropped as a national class until the 2.5 rule was suspended. The existing SSC cars may be moved to SSB to accommodate B Spec cars. There is a possibility of applying Touring rules to Showroom Stock thus eliminating the category. For additional insight into all of this drama check out the SCCAForums (http://www.sccaforums.com) BBS. SS/T are currently being reviewed by the CRB.

Terry

JLawton
12-21-2011, 08:09 AM
Mickey



There is considerable discontent in the Touring / Showroom Stock world
Terry



Yeah, all three of them................ :D Kidding!! Especially considering I am one of them!!