"Vintage" IT Rules, ie 1989 or Earlier?

[128 racecar]

My midwest vintage racing club (VSCDA) recently updated our last year of eligible cars from 1972 to 1989. This means I can race a 1st gen RX7 that I always wanted to own back in the 80s. The last year are cars can be prepped to is the 1989 SCCA GCR. Before I rush out an get an RX7, I need to have a feel for what was allowable car prep in the late 80s. Can anyone describe in general (or specific) terms how the rules differed then vs now? New safety stuff is not an issue, as my club already mandates fuel cells, fire systems, seat back braces, catch tanks, etc. I am more looking for what "go fast" mods currently allowed were not allowed back then.

I wasn't sure if this question was better suited for this forum or for the General Discussion forum. Thanks for your help.

Marc in Indy

[lawtonglenn]

.

GREAAAaaat.... like I wasn't feeling old enough already, now 1989 is VINTAGE????

:shrug:

[Greg Amy]

...1989 is VINTAGE????
"Kids" born in 1989 are drinking...legally.

You're old.

I may have a 1992-ish GCR and Showroom Stock regs, but probably nothing earlier. I'll look, though. You need to know that way back in those bad old days all the category rules were in separate books: you bought the GCR and then you separately purchased the category rules you were interested in (Showroom Stock, Formula cars, Production, GT, etc). If I remember correctly, the Improved Touring regs were published within the Showroom Stock category book...?

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

My midwest vintage racing club (VSCDA) recently updated our last year of eligible cars from 1972 to 1989. This means I can race a 1st gen RX7 that I always wanted to own back in the 80s. The last year are cars can be prepped to is the 1989 SCCA GCR. Before I rush out an get an RX7, I need to have a feel for what was allowable car prep in the late 80s. Can anyone describe in general (or specific) terms how the rules differed then vs now? New safety stuff is not an issue, as my club already mandates fuel cells, fire systems, seat back braces, catch tanks, etc. I am more looking for what "go fast" mods currently allowed were not allowed back then.

I wasn't sure if this question was better suited for this forum or for the General Discussion forum. Thanks for your help.

Marc in Indy

Do a LITTLE thinking on this. The 1st gen RX-7 is going through a tough time parts-wise. 12A rotor housings are VERY scarce...VERY. Go with a nice 2nd gen car!!!

[Dano77]

If you must get a first gen,get the 13b GSL-SE prepped to ITS spec.

It will be easier in a few years to get parts as the 13b was produced longer and the parts are still available. The tough part is the REGI engine in the first gen is specific to that car.

[JeffYoung]

Going to rankle some local feathers here of some folks that I like a lot.

There is a move afoot in the SEDiv to create a new class for the 1st Gen RX7s call IT7R. There are two competing camps as I understand it, one in Florida that is using a modded Renesis designed to accept a carb, and the other here in NC that is using a Renesis with a Megasquirt system.

I understand the desire to keep these cars running, and the folks involved are all good folks, but (and I have some self interest here no doubt) do we really need this from a big picture perspective?

Would it be better if these car owners moved to 2nd Gen ITS cars, or put 13bs in the 12a cars and ran in ITS?

It seems to me that the cost of coverting to a Renesis woudl be similar if not more than the cost of acquiring a decent 2nd Gen ITS car. I understand the point that the IT7 guys like running on Toyos for cost reasons, and I get that -- it's a good point.

In any event, thoughts on this?

[Matt93SE]

Going to rankle some local feathers here of some folks that I like a lot.
...
Would it be better if these car owners moved to 2nd Gen ITS cars, or put 13bs in the 12a cars and ran in ITS?
...
In any event, thoughts on this?

They already have a class for cars with swaps. It's called STU.
...Just sayin'.

What about running the Renesis or 13b in IT7 with a restrictor plate to keep them equal to the 12A and just keep them in the same class instead of creating another offshoot class that applies to only one ancient car?

FF is moving to the Honda Fit engine in order to keep the class alive. I see this as the same move.

[Greg Amy]

Guys that are racing the 1st-gen RX-7 generally have no interest in the 2nd-gen car. They're in the first gen because it's a good car, fun to drive, value-priced in the market, and reasonably plentiful. And they get to compete against other cars like themselves in IT7/Spec-RX7 Their major problems are twofold:

- The IT process fails them in ITA, and for various reasons they can't/won't be moved to ITB, and
- The 12A engine is running out of parts.

There are many ways to address this, but not within the current structure and philosophy of Improved Touring. For example, to address the housing problem we can offer low cost loans to those that can't affo....ooops, sorry, wrong forum...to address the problem with worn-out housings we can allow re-finishing of the them, where they're plated and machined (similar in philosophy to the original reason for allowing overbores in IT, that being the ability to service the blocks.) This would allow the existing fleet of engines to be rebuilt.

As for the process failing the -7, the market has responded with numerous options, such as IT7, Spec RX-7, and now IT7Renesis (the first I've heard of this, BTW). I have been a big proponent of these various classes, and have been vocal that if I were to start from scratch today I'd pick up one of these cars for a song and go play. But, especially with this revelation, I see one major problem: various factions fighting with various rules.

We've been chatting up here in the NE about this class, and I've told the players that if this is going to be successful then they need to get together a national committee to standardize the rules.There's enough of these cars around - both active and sitting in garages - that they can have a pretty nice group. But they have to standardize. The base group should be a set of rules that mimic the car's prep in IT -- call it IT7 Classic. As part of that ruleset they should explicitly allow plating and repair of the housings (frankly, I'd be doing it anyway if I were racing one). Then from there they work together to develop a spec carb and intake to bolt onto the 2nd-Gen 13B that can be dropped into the 1st-gen chassis, with a weight to being it into performance parity with the "classic". now, if others want the Renesis in there, then they can do the same thing for that, too (though I have to imagine the costs of buying that engine must be pretty steep compared to the 2nd-gen engine).

But like the growth of Spec Miata it's all gotta be consistent nationwide. And it can be done.

GA

[JeffYoung]

Greg makes a lot of good points.

Only thing I'd add. The IT7 drivers I know (good friends and good racers all) generally say the following about moving to a "traditional" IT class:

1. They already have the car and the cage, and spares, and they want to stay in the 1st Gen chassis.

2. They don't want to go to B because of cage issues, and wheel issues (they mostly run on 13X7s right now).

3. They don't want to run ITS in 2nd Gen cars because those cars are viewed as more finicky, and more importantly, they lose there spec tire (Toyos) that last (for many of them) a season or sometimes more.

Just throwing that into the mix for thoughts.

[Andy Bettencourt]

In general, if you have a group of people LOCALLY, who want to create a LOCAL class, to generate LOCAL dollars for the LOCAL region...

...You do it.

The Challenge is to (to steal a tree-hugging term) think globally and act locally. Get buy in from the IT7 and Spec7 factions all over the country that 'these' are the rules and you would like to keep them from getting buthered. Create a Chairman, Secretary, and committee, get a website and have it serve as the home for IT7R. Allow seemless movement from either S7 or IT7...

I think you should go with IT7LS1 myself...

[seckerich]

Basically there are 2 proposals in the Southeast.

Both use the Renesis motor because it is the newest and will have the longest availability of parts. Second gen housings and cast irons will get scarce and we are not getting rid of our spares. :D

One proposal uses injection and has some changes to brakes, etc. Problem is some of these cars will be going faster than their chassis or brakes can handle, and the trans will suffer as well. I suggested they run small TB to choke HP to close to 12A levels.

Other proposal uses an adaptor to put the stock 12A carb and intake on the renesis and leaves the rest of the car alone. Power should be slightly more than 12A but below ITS levels.

At the moment we have guys building both as test mules to see what works and is cost effective and then a proposal is made to the RE's of SEDIV to adopt it as a regional class. Until then regions can allow them to run as provisional as we do F600 now.

I have the entire rule proposal for the carb version if anyone wants to see it. Might be better elsewhere so we stop thread jacking, but vintage 12A anything is an expensive proposition with rebuilt housings going for $750 plus. We did some 13B housings narrowed and re-machined for a vintage 12A car and it is not cheap.

[JeffYoung]

Is the 2nd Gen stuff getting that scarce?

Again, I'm looking at this from a biased perspective, but it sure seems like getting a 2nd Gen car would be cheaper than a Renesis conversion? I know Blair has one, and Rex too.

That said, I understand their attachment to the 1st Gen chassis. I certainly can't be one to criticize irrational love for a race car.....lol.....

[lateapex911]

As a guy with four sets of every 12a engine part, yet getting ONE engine is doubtful, here's my take.

Gregs right. The Process fails the car, sorta. One, the Process power is optimistic. MAYbe one guy in the country can make it, but maybe not. BUT, even if they lowered it to a more realistic number, ITA is still not the right class, because the PW ratio makes the car too light...far lighter than is can actually weigh.

As for the typical situation, the motor parts can't be found. Now, there ARE good aftermarket solutions for using the old shot for current rules parts, and they add no measurable power, but they are illegal. (Philosophically, Greg's right, the solution matches the piston engine rebuild method)

In my time on the ITAC, it got discussed, but, there was no support behind allowing replating, etc. Somebody mentioned VW hubs, and Nissan distributor gears, and it went downhill from there. "Tell them to move on, they've had their day in the sun" was the general consensus.

Here's the bottom line to me:
My car, which holds a bunch of track records etc, is worth, with some spares, (if it had the track record engine in and running) MAYbe $4K .
NObody will pay more and there are a BUNCH for sale all the time for less.

So, I can:
-Buy one of those $3000 cars, and use the engine and convert it to spares.....BUT, that engines likely a questionable quantity at best, and a short fused time bomb at worst. So, $3K to stay in place and get a short extension on life.
-Get my parts replated (I actually have to sort through everything with a fine Steve Eckerdged comb to make sure I can't get one engine from 4) and run ...illegally. That will probably end up costing $2500 or so.
-Convert to a 13B and run ITS. New brakes, wheels, hubs, suspension geometry, (and parts!) engine and electronics. Gulp. THAT won't be cheap. And I'll have a car worth.....$4K. Cuz it sure aint gonna win ITS with a live axle, 145 hp, and struts!
- Get a 2nd Gen car and move on. The real issue with that is: It's a whole different car. I'll need to relearn all the stuff I've learned about the old one...and that's fine, BUT, IT is only 3-5 years younger, so I'm really only buying a few years at best. Now, I might be able to dump my car, and get into a new(er) 2nd gen for $6 - 8K all up, so it's not that bad, but, it's an interim step for sure.

So I see where the guys are coming from with the Renesis motor. If you're going to change it, at least do it so you're not doing it again in 3 or 4 years.

To me, just adding an allowance for plating in the ITCS for rotary sideplates and housings makes the most sense, but, I think the ITAC will allow that right after they allow a Viper engine to run in the TR8...

[JeffYoung]

I agree with everything Jake wrote. It's a real quandry for the 12A guys. Great car, lots of history, good group of drivers.

But I knew when Russ Marshall's car didn't sell at $3k or whatever he was asking for it that the class was in trouble. Honestly Jake, I think you'd have a hard time getting $4k for your car just because of where IT7 is now, and not anything to do with the car itself.

I look at those options and, with an "ITS racing in the SEDiv is really good right now" bias, just see getting a $6-8k 2nd Gen car as the best option. They are known quantities, bugs have been sorted, and they are a great race car. But that is me.

We'll see how it plays out.

[Chip42]

RX8? I mean , if you want the newest thing and to limit your relearning... I know a guy in NC who could build you a real nice one.

[ner88]

My Miata has a 1989 production date, can I play?:D

[Andy Bettencourt]

It doesn't matter what WE would do. It matters what they want. The key to lasting success is a simple package and a ruleset that can cross over Regions. Adapt a carb to the 13BR and size it to create a power target window. Eliminates ECU's etc.

[lateapex911]

RX8? I mean , if you want the newest thing and to limit your relearning... I know a guy in NC who could build you a real nice one.

Me too! But...BUILD a car? $$$$$$$$...
AND...the (quite literally), $64,000 question: Will it be a winner?

Jeff, yea, sadly even $4k would be a stretch, even with it's provence! (I just had to use that word for one time in my life, LOL)

[TomL]

Actually, Jake, the word you wanted to use was "provenance". (unless you're from France):)

[JeffYoung]

2nd Gen RX7 answers both of those questins -- don't have to build and can buy cheap, and it is a winner....

Don't worry, I am with you on the sale price of a race car. I probably have $50k+ (well, a lot of plus) in TR8 build and development costs since 2004...and I bet I couldn't get any more for it than Ron got for his Z car ($7k).


Me too! But...BUILD a car? $$$$$$$$...
AND...the (quite literally), $64,000 question: Will it be a winner?

Jeff, yea, sadly even $4k would be a stretch, even with it's provence! (I just had to use that word for one time in my life, LOL)

[lateapex911]

Actually, Jake, the word you wanted to use was "provenance". (unless you're from France):)

classic. I get to use it once, then I typo it to death!

[Ron Earp]

Adapt a carb to the 13BR and size it to create a power target window. Eliminates ECU's etc.

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?

[G-Man]

Greatly enjoying this discussion - thank you. I ran a Spec7, now an IT-A Rx-7. Also have a street 1985 Rx-7 daily driver and a lovely 3/78 street Rx-7 that I'll probably sell since I can't use it and it's way too nice to race.

The engine issue is HUGE. (Would love to know specifics about replating for the street cars.) Or a good transplant choice.
What can I do when my race motor goes? I've got spare housings - that need replating, but can't find good engines (affordable or not).

Didn't think you could convert to 13B/GSL-SE without changing _everything_ on the chassis?

Yeah, 12As stopped in 85 - but 2nd Gen motors are already 20 years old (tho still available).

[lateapex911]

Greatly enjoying this discussion - thank you. I ran a Spec7, now an IT-A Rx-7. Also have a street 1985 Rx-7 daily driver and a lovely 3/78 street Rx-7 that I'll probably sell since I can't use it and it's way too nice to race.

The engine issue is HUGE. (Would love to know specifics about replating for the street cars.)
Maybe Tom will fill us in. I THINK he knows of the supplier. Or he knows somebody that does. ;). Or Steve E knows too I bet. It's not actually replating with the original chromium whatever, it's a new plating process, and, therefor, not kosher.

Or a good transplant choice.
What can I do when my race motor goes? I've got spare housings - that need replating, ha, spares that need replating are commonplace, and, under the current rules, only useful as large paperweights.

but can't find good engines (affordable or not).

Didn't think you could convert to 13B/GSL-SE without changing _everything_ on the chassis?

Yeah, 12As stopped in 85 - but 2nd Gen motors are already 20 years old (tho still available).Yes, you are right about the ITA 12a to ITS 13B conversion. It's a TON of work, and those cars weren't exactly common anyway. The injection is unique to that year, and I bet you'd need to do the wiring harness as well, to make it run and be legal. And we all know how much we love old Mazda wiring harnesses and the odds of finding one that will come apart...without ..coming apart never to go back together again. LOL

yea, to me the ITA to ITS conversion is basically jumping from the fire into the frying pan.

[lateapex911]

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?



I would imagine that a generic carb would be chosen, (and bet that's what Andy meant) as the Niki car is also getting long in the tooth. Racing Beat had a Holley with a matching manifold back in the day. I know there have been lots of alternate carbs used over the years, so there are solutions, no doubt.
But yea, yuck, if i went to the trouble of swapping it all, having to deal with a carb would suck! (I know, can't have your cake and eat it too, LOL)

[Andy Bettencourt]

2nd Gen RX7 answers both of those questins -- don't have to build and can buy cheap, and it is a winner

Except these guys aren't asking that question...Bueller? Bueller?

They want and love their Gen 1's. Focus!!!!

[128 racecar]

Except these guys aren't asking that question...Bueller? Bueller?

They want and love their Gen 1's. Focus!!!!

Actually, the question was if anyone recalled the difference between the current rules and the ones back in the 80s. And to think I was concerned if posting in this forum would get any attention (LOL)

I appreciate the rarity of the 1st gen motors. Considering the previous cars I have vintage raced (Fiat 128, 1st gen Honda Civic 1200, and currently a Datsun 610), at least there are still 1st gen RX7s out there! It is unlikely you will ever see any of my previous models on Craigslist. Rarity is relative. I once drove 800 miles round trip for a 128 parts car.

Anyway, if practicality, availability of parts, ease to work on, decent suspensions, or reliability were requirements for vintage racing, that would eliminate 95% of the grid!!! I won my class with my Fiat a number of times because I was the only one of 10 or 15 in my class to get to the false grid for the feature!

Another factor of longevity is the frequency and level of racing. Typical race year for my is 3-4 race weekends. Likewise, while you are probably going 10/10ths, the majority of time I am driving 8/10ths- 7/10ths if there is no one to dice with. I got 8 seasons (29 race weekends) out of the motor I built for my Fiat 128. Mobil 1 is good, but so is stroking it when your buddies are on the trailer.

Is 1989 old? It's old enough for us in the VSCDA! Come out and join us- just don't put a fender on the guy next to you. Even Miatas are welcome, assuming if someone can help me figure out what the IT rules were in the 80s so since the club requires prep to that era's rules (hey, we came full circle!).

Thanks for chiming in- you IT guys are certainly an enthusiastic group, even when you don't agree with each other. :dead_horse:

Thanks,
Marc in Indy
1975 Datsun 610 ITB rat rod vintage race refugee

[128 racecar]

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?

Golly, the only thing I was aware of besides Webers were Hitachis. What's fuel injection? ECUs?? Now you know why I am stuck in vintage racing. My wrenching expertise ended somewhere around 1979. A Weber 32/36 I understand. ECUs are black boxes to me.:shrug:

Marc in Indy

[lateapex911]

OK, to answer the OP questions, man, that was a long time ago!

I built a first gen in 93, when the iTCS was still a separate book.

Since then, I KNOW interior rules have relaxed, the 'dual purpose' aspect has gone, the suspension rules now explicitly allow spherical bearings (a case can be made that they did back then too).
ECUs are now legal, but that's not an issue on the 1st gen RX-7.
Radiators used to be free, so you could get one that didn't fill the stock opening and viola! You had a legal cold air intake opening.
As far as the engine is concerned, I thin it's unchanged ruleswise, as far as the RX-7 goes.

The rear suspension now uses parts that didn't exist back in the late 1980s, but, I THINK the traction bar allowance existed, so the Tri-link solution COULD have existed.

[128 racecar]

Jake:

Thanks!

Marc

[Gary L]

Try this - it's the orginal proposed IT ruleset, ca 1985.

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/downloads/ThisisIT.pdf

Can't comment on how much change was made by 1989, but wouldn't think it was major.

[joeg]

Need a stock passenger seat...that one I seem to remember.

Kill switches not necessary.

[128 racecar]

Try this - it's the orginal proposed IT ruleset, ca 1985.

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/downloads/ThisisIT.pdf

Can't comment on how much change was made by 1989, but wouldn't think it was major.

Brilliant! Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks Gary:happy204:

Marc

[TomL]

On the 12a replating, Tom Sprecher did most of the investigation, so I can only give you second hand info. The company was located in Canada (can't remember its name). The main problems were: a) it would cost about $750 per housing (i.e., about $1500 to do an engine), and they weren't interested in doing it unless some one would have it done in a batch of 50 or more. So unless someone was willing to take on a big financial risk (near $40,000 just have a batch done, then wondering whether you can sell them all for at least that price, plus possible warranty issues if the process was less than perfect), it was doubtful whether it was feasible. None of us wanted to take it on, for sure.

It wasn't clear if it was legal or not under existing IT rules (most likely not), but we figured that we could get SEDiv to approve it as part of the IT7 rules. [And how would anyone know anyway? :unsure:]

[G-Man]

[And how would anyone know anyway? ]

Wouldn't the nicely-running 12As be a giveaway?

[mustanghammer]

http://www.jhbperformance.com/

This is the Canadian company that does the rotor housing repair.

[Dano77]

And there is these dudes too,also canada. But they also have an all ALUMINUM 13b WOW

http://www.rotaryengine.com/services/ceramiccoat.htm

The stuff i called Cermet or Nikosil Google it. There were some guys down south that did it as well,thier site is kinda sketchy though.

Dan 77 IT7 or EP or STU or ...........

[tom_sprecher]

Wow, I haven't been here in a long time, but it looks like I picked a good time to return.

Three years ago when MazdaSpeed sent me an email stating the 12A rotor housings would no longer be available as of a month before, I called Butch asking who to contact about getting the IT7 rules changed to allow coating the housings. He explained that would be me and wasn't sure why other that sort of remembering putting me on the IT7AC after we were drinking one night.

So after looking into alternatives it seemed JHB would be a good candidate. Unfortunately, Mark wanted to do a batch of 100 at $450 each. All I had to do is ship a couple of pallets to Canada along with a $45k check and he would hook us up. I tried to explain the IT7 community did not have 100 housings, nor did we need them all at this time. The problem was he did not do the Cermet spaying, but an aerospace facilty down the street did and they only run large batches. He does have the proper equipment to grind the Cermet to the required whatever-roid shape.

I did get an email blast from JHB earlier this year anouncing a sale on 13B parts. After replying back inquiring about any 12A parts, he said check back in the summer. If anyone wants to follow up on that I can send you the emails.

Unless I over looked it the other site, rotaryengine.com, makes no mention of coating rotor housings.

After the exercise in alternate coatings, Blair and I had talked about the 13B and the 20B. He was going to look into an intake to mate the Nikki to the 20B. No one I talked to about the Cermet allowance was intereseted in either of the two engine ideas. "It will put an end to the class" was the most common refrain. That and not having rotor housings.

At about the same time the economy put a halt to all my disposable income and I lost interest. Why worry about another engine when I don't have the cash to run the one I have?

If Blair and Rex have done something that's great. Maybe a look at the STU rules wouldn't be a bad thing either. I'm racing again (when it's not too hot out) and when this engine goes I'll have to look into something else.

[pdqracer]

:dead_horse:To reply to "all' of the above; The carb option is a dying technology and will only get harder to get quality carb parts. The RX7 12A carb was a pain from the start to race. Some figured it out, but many still struggle to get a clean burn at al throtle positions. Corner exit is a problem for many that the fuel injection would solve.

I have no plans yet to build an IT-7R, but would welcome the option of fuel injection, even with a restrictor.

[Ron Earp]

I met a guy at the VIR tavern this past July that had done a carb conversion on a Renesis and had it in the first gen chassis. I forgot his name, nice fellow, a vet.

You could put a little Holley or Demon carb on it - no shortage whatsoever of those carb parts and there isn't going to be for a long time to come. I mean, if you're making the rules then make the rules. An carb conversion Renesis sounds plausible.

[highwayracer]

Heresy, I know.

Why don't we just put a Miata engine in.

When the Miata first came out there were kits to put a rotary in them, so surely it could be made to work.

[G-Man]

I'm proud to be on a LeMons/Chump team that runs an "Mx-7" - it's a 1988 Gen2 Rx-7 with a 1.6 liter Miata motor. The car is quite slow, easy to drive, and gets great mileage. Add the latter to the 16gal(?) stock tank and we rarely refuel. But it begs for more hp.
The extra 1" length of the 1.8 would be a problem. Don't know how either would fit in a Gen1 Rx-7.