The demise of ITR at WDC

[yannisalex2000]

Marrs 5 came and went without an ITR entry.For the past two seasons at the majority of MARRS events I was the only driver to show up and represent the class.Since I dont intend to bring my ITR car at SP again(unless ITR is moved out of BB) I am afraid this is the end of the class at the region.


John Alexandropoulos

#53 ITR
WDC Region

[Knestis]

It seems to be WAY to early to call it dead.

K

[RedMisted]

New class featuring many cars that would need to be built in order to race. (Wanna race a car like mine? You'll have to build one yourself, because you're not going to find an already-constructed Mustang V6 unless you offer me a ridiculous sum for mine.) Couple that with the rotten economy and it's easy to see why ITR isn't catching on. My guess is that it'll be a few years before it does, but I'm staying the course...

[benspeed]

I'm with John - classing ITR in Big Bore is a bust. I asked about moving it out before MARRS I this year and was told the rationale for why it runs with Big Bore. Being a good citizen I supported that but after the race I confirmed to the other ITR guys - no thanks, not coming back for more...

[JeffYoung]

ITR runs fine with S and A and IT7 in SEDiv and I would think that is the natural place for it.

[erlrich]

New class featuring many cars that would need to be built in order to race. (Wanna race a car like mine? You'll have to build one yourself, because you're not going to find an already-constructed Mustang V6 unless you offer me a ridiculous sum for mine.) Couple that with the rotten economy and it's easy to see why ITR isn't catching on. My guess is that it'll be a few years before it does, but I'm staying the course...

Problem is, there used to be 4-5 ITR cars that ran in the DC region on a somewhat regular basis prior to them moving into big bore. They ran with us in ITA, and with the exception of 1 or 2 individual drivers - which you get in every class - we had pretty much zero problems. Yeah, most if not all of the ITA cars were getting lapped, but hey that's just part of the multi-class racing deal.

[lateapex911]

Every dog wants to be the big dog......
But yea, ITS or the ITA group would be the best fit. Assuming car counts allow it. From what I've seen at Summit, they do. I don't understand the managements reasons for the grouping.

[gran racing]

Earl, that sounds pretty funny. Yeah, 1 or 2 drivers out of 4. LOL

ITR cars are not inexpensive to run or build. When people can run against large competitive fields in other classes, the lure diminishes for ITR. Tristian ran in ITR for a little while but ask him if he missed some of the good ITB races.

The ITS group is okay for ITR cars while there are limited numbers. Increase the fields and now you have two classed right next to each other in speed which we usually try to avoid.

I think eventually ITR will continue to grow but it'll take some time. The grouping? Hell, isn't that the same thing we tell the winged cars often times? Grow your field and you'll be able to get into a different group.

[lateapex911]

Grow your field and you'll be able to get into a different group.

Actually, Dave, it's a much different situation. The cars have fenders so they can go in most groups. And since there are such small numbers, it means there's even more flexibility...nearly ANY group could absorb another 1 or 2 cars at Summit. So I don't get why the PTB refuse to move them to a better group.

[Knestis]

I'm with John - classing ITR in Big Bore is a bust. I asked about moving it out before MARRS I this year and was told the rationale for why it runs with Big Bore. Being a good citizen I supported that but after the race I confirmed to the other ITR guys - no thanks, not coming back for more...

So out of curiosity, what was the rationale?

K

[Gregg]

ITR was moved to Big Bore for the '09 season--the same time the MARRS weekend contracted from 10 (yes 10) run groups to eight. The last year that ITR ran with ITA and ITS there was an average of two ITR cars (the same as '08). The faster of the two ITR cars commonly would lap all but one ITA car twice. This was at a time when the ITR field was not running, shall we say top notch builds. The ITR car that commonly won was running slower laps than Ed York's pre-Great Alignment ITS E36.

At the time of the contraction, the ITA/IT7/T3/SRX7 group was averaging over 40 cars (w/ a max of 50), and the ITS/ITB/SS group also averaged over 40 cars. ITR, with only two cars average was placed in BB, which:


Was averaging < 25 cars
Was averaging two GT1 cars
Would place ITR in with speed-comparable cars

ITR remained at a three car average until the owner of one of the cars sold his only race car (he remains of the region's BoD), and one decided to put the restrictor his E36 and run ITS due to the larger (10+ car) fields. The 3rd car is the O.P. here.

The region moved to nine run groups last year in order to split Small Bore and SRF separately, but the number of non-ITR cars in Big Bore has dropped drastically in the past two years. The chief complaint we heard from the few ITR cars running was an issue running in the same run group as American Sedan. We are currently averaging two AS cars in BB.

So to put things in perspective there are really three MARRS run groups that ITR could currently be placed in:


ITS/ITB/ITC/SS -- Most of the ITB cars lose at least one lap currently, many lose two. If you place the few ITR cars in this run group, you have what is regularly the largest ITB field in the nation losing three or more laps per race. As for the ITC cars, they would likely encounter the same speed differential to the ITR cars as the ITR cars have with GT1 cars.
ITA/IT7/SRX7/T3 -- You will have approx. 20 ITA cars losing at least one lap, and if past history is an indicator, at least 15 will lose two laps per race.
BB -- the three current ITR cars would lose, at most, one lap and would be running in run group with far less density than the other two.

For the record, we did not consider placing ITR in the 40+ car SSM run group or the 35+ car SM run group.

Since Day 1 the ITR drivers have pitched the reason to be removed from BB as a safety issue. Given the dearth of GT1 cars running at the regional level (and in the MARRS series in particular), the fact that AS traditionally runs in BB w/ the same lap times w/out a perceived safety issue, as well as the sheer lack of density in that run group, the region's Club Racing Committee (CRC) (http://wdcr-scca.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=wsWmp0EEp%2fw%3d&tabid=282&mid=2451), which is made up of representatives from each run group as well as each of the volunteer specialties, decided to keep ITR in that run group for '11, even with lower overall turnout for events in '10.

Might the number of ITR cars increased w/out the move to BB? Perhaps, but we saw no change in the number of entrants post-move from pre-move and when coordinating our events need to plan for the interests of all of our racers. And frankly, 50 ITA/ITB/ITC/IT7/SRX7 drivers should have the same right to a good racing experience that the three ITR racers do.

[lateapex911]

Interesting gregg, and thanks for the insight.

I see a contradiction though. You are using the number of laps lost as the main determining factor, yet you pointed out that the ITR cars are running slower than the fast ITS lap times. Would putting them in the ITS group really mess up the ITB guys that much?

Locally at Lime Rock, the lead car is often an ITS car, over the ITRs. Summit is a longer track, so I'd expect the ITRs to be faster than the ITS cars, but thats not always the case.

[StephenB]

ITS/ITB/ITC/SS -- Most of the ITB cars lose at least one lap currently, many lose two. If you place the few ITR cars in this run group, you have what is regularly the largest ITB field in the nation losing three or more laps per race. As for the ITC cars, they would likely encounter the same speed differential to the ITR cars as the ITR cars have with GT1 cars.
ITA/IT7/SRX7/T3 -- You will have approx. 20 ITA cars losing at least one lap, and if past history is an indicator, at least 15 will lose two laps per race.
BB -- the three current ITR cars would lose, at most, one lap and would be running in run group with far less density than the other two.


I would be shocked if the ITR cars started lapping the ITS cars. I just don't see that happening but I may be wrong.

I have always been a big fan of timed races rather than laps. We all pay the same entry fee and entry fees go towards rent of the track which in turn is based on time not laps. I see no reason an ITB car gets more track time than a GT1 car. This has never and probably will never make sense to me.

Just my .02 :) I would love to run summit maybe someday we can get a large enough feild to make it worth the trip... or maybe I will just bring the old Audi down and play in B :)

Stephen

[RedMisted]

I have always been a big fan of timed races rather than laps. We all pay the same entry fee and entry fees go towards rent of the track which in turn is based on time not laps. I see no reason an ITB car gets more track time than a GT1 car. This has never and probably will never make sense to me.

My thoughts exactly.

[StephenB]

My thoughts exactly.

I have raced in ITB for 11 years and the entire time I felt this way... even though I was in one of the slowest classes and would get the least amount of laps on any given weekend...

Stephen

[Gregg]

Interesting gregg, and thanks for the insight.

I see a contradiction though. You are using the number of laps lost as the main determining factor, yet you pointed out that the ITR cars are running slower than the fast ITS lap times. Would putting them in the ITS group really mess up the ITB guys that much?

Locally at Lime Rock, the lead car is often an ITS car, over the ITRs. Summit is a longer track, so I'd expect the ITRs to be faster than the ITS cars, but thats not always the case.
What I thought I said is that they were running slower than Ed York's pre-Great Realignment ITS times.

[JeffYoung]

Ed's car was an unrestricted E36?


What I thought I said is that they were running slower than Ed York's pre-Great Realignment ITS times.

[TAC]

Well I must admit I am perplexed that we are three weeks away from the I.T.FEST and not one ITR has signed up. Usually we have a couple by now topping out at 6 max. :shrug:

[seckerich]

Ed's car was an unrestricted E36?

Very unrestricted as in 2.12 VIR practice.:p

[JLawton]

There is something wrong if an ITR car is lapping the entire ITA field............

[Kai Noeske]

There is something wrong if an ITR car is lapping the entire ITA field............

I learned last weekend that the Summit ITA record is the 1:24s... :o holy shit!

[Gregg]

I learned last weekend that the Summit ITA record is the 1:24s... :o holy shit!
Of course, many things have changed over the years, but you don't want to get me started on the 1.8 Miata's overdog status in ITA.

[Gregg]

There is something wrong if an ITR car is lapping the entire ITA field............
To butcher the Eagles, "We haven't had that spirit here since 2008."

If you have a 3-4sec differential over the course of an 18-lap race on a 2mi course, it's certainly possible.

[callard]

Greggs description of the placement decisions for IT-R at Summit Point are spot on. If the same process was applied at a different track you would come out with a different arrangement of classes in groups. Car counts and class speeds are difficult to match and vary by track. What works at Lime Rock may not work at VIR or the Glen for those two reasons.
Don't blame WDCR's competition committee for doing what is best for all of the racers rather than 1-3 cars.
Chuck

[benspeed]

So out of curiosity, what was the rationale?

K

The rationale was that ITR was better suited to run with the big bore cars because of lap times, closing speeds and ITR drivers messing up the S and A races.

After the race I was of the opinion that those should be the reasons to move R back with S and A...can't comment on R guys messing up the races for S and A guys.

But what I respected was they drivers reps were very clear about communicating with me. They were very clear that this run group was the way they wanted it and they weren't changing. Sorta disappointing but hey, no shortage of places to race and it looks like the R guys from Summit have been coming to NJMP which is great for that track.

[Greg Amy]

There were so few ITR/S guys at NHMS this past weekend that the ITS guys agreed to pull out of Group 8 (ITS, ITR, ITB) and run with us in G4/STL. After qualifying the ITR guys tried to run in our group as STU, but the Chief Steward would not allow them to do it without an extra entry fee.

To be fair, it was a light attendance weekend overall; as I recall there was only one ITB entry.

GA

[yannisalex2000]

The rationale was that ITR was better suited to run with the big bore cars because of lap times, closing speeds and ITR drivers messing up the S and A races.

After the race I was of the opinion that those should be the reasons to move R back with S and A...can't comment on R guys messing up the races for S and A guys.

But what I respected was they drivers reps were very clear about communicating with me. They were very clear that this run group was the way they wanted it and they weren't changing. Sorta disappointing but hey, no shortage of places to race and it looks like the R guys from Summit have been coming to NJMP which is great for that track.

Ben if you bring me a video copy of MARRS 1 when I see you at the Glen I will bring you a nice picture of the two of us going into T1 during the race.

[yannisalex2000]

ITR runs fine with S and A and IT7 in SEDiv and I would think that is the natural place for it.

That's why I am going to be racing with you guys really soon.

[dj10]

Greggs description of the placement decisions for IT-R at Summit Point are spot on. If the same process was applied at a different track you would come out with a different arrangement of classes in groups. Car counts and class speeds are difficult to match and vary by track. What works at Lime Rock may not work at VIR or the Glen for those two reasons.
Don't blame WDCR's competition committee for doing what is best for all of the racers rather than 1-3 cars.
Chuck

Then don't blame us ITR drivers for doing what we feel is in the best interest of our cars & what we feel is for saftey reasons. I have been hit by AS's as they used me for brakes @ T5 (and it wasn't because I was braking early) @ Summit, slow ass GT1's @ Mid Ohio, hit by flying tires from a GT1 car as he smashed into the tire wall not to mentioned that AS hate to let us by and have been hit by a T2 car @ Mid Ohio. You wonder why I'm gun shy??!! In all honesty I've been hit by Spec Pinata's too but they usually don't hurt much except when they slam the door on in a turn while you are going for the lead of a race.:blink:

[benspeed]

Ben if you bring me a video copy of MARRS 1 when I see you at the Glen I will bring you a nice picture of the two of us going into T1 during the race.

Yannisalex - sent you a PM link of the race - shoot me the cool pic! (I don't think I posted it because I sorta made all the beggining of the season mistakes short of contact).

Dan - you told me I wouldn't like the grouping at SP and you were right. But I very much respect how the drivers reps and the region management want the groupings. I don't agree, but respect it. Pretty unlikely I'll go back which is a shame because I love the track - only been there three times and it's fast and technical and a fun place to figure out.

[Rob43]

Being one of the last ITR drivers at Summit Point, it is now a dead class there. I didn't even bother racing the first 4 races of the 2011 seasons, why would I spend all that money just to drive around the track by myself.

The instant the WDCR competition committee put ITR in BB, the end was near.



Rob #43 ITR BMW 325I

[Knestis]

...I have been hit by AS's as they used me for brakes @ T5 (and it wasn't because I was braking early) @ Summit, slow ass GT1's @ Mid Ohio, hit by flying tires from a GT1 car as he smashed into the tire wall not to mentioned that AS hate to let us by and have been hit by a T2 car @ Mid Ohio.

For about the zillionth time this kind of thing has come up, this is not a race group or class problem - this is a dumb-ass selfish driver problem.

There are lots of reasons to not like a particular group's make-up but "[whatever class] causes crashes" is simply not a fair representation of how this game works. Class stickers don't drive cars; drivers drive cars. And if the culture of a region is accepting of people being jerks, then you're going to find jerks all over the place.

K

[dj10]

this is a dumb-ass selfish driver problem.
K

Then I guess you just classified BB in general & BB @ Summit Point? I rest my case...what ever the reason.

[gran racing]

So which group would you like to go in - meaning where the ITR cars fit best besides BB? If in the ITS group, I could see the ITR drivers becoming the issue and getting in the way of the ITS battle.

Maybe do as Stephen said - base the races on time versus number of laps?

[JamesB]

Then I guess you just classified BB in general & BB @ Summit Point? I rest my case...what ever the reason.

I think he was referring to ITR's stance of not wanting to run in BB, and the drivers that crash and ruin the session for the whole group. Gotta love double edged swords.

[benspeed]

I like the idea of time also - most fair to all the classes. If the WDC region put ITR back with other IT cars I'd go back a couple time a year. MARRS I is a great race, early in the season and south enough to be nice and warm in April.

[Kai Noeske]

I like the idea of time also - most fair to all the classes. If the WDC region put ITR back with other IT cars I'd go back a couple time a year. MARRS I is a great race, early in the season and south enough to be nice and warm in April.

Dear Ben,

Please watch your video of the MARRS1 race with someone wading through knee-high water in a yellow racing suit, to refresh your mind.

Thanks, Kai :p

[benspeed]

LOL - that's right - we did have an epic flood! Stuff was floating along everywhere

[erlrich]

Dear Ben,

Please watch your video of the MARRS1 race with someone wading through knee-high water in a yellow racing suit, to refresh your mind.

Thanks, Kai :p

He said nice and warm...nothing about dry ;)

I still have clothes that are drying out from that one.

[dj10]

Over the years I got to know and become friends with some great people from the WDC region, everyone helped everyone else and we had some great times at dinners at different places. I hope they come up with something acceptable for ITR car because I miss the people and my friends.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It seems pretty obvious that the ITR guys hate the groupinfg and are speaking with their wallets in WDC.

If you put them into the ITS group, do you lose any of those guys?

Knock knock, are the regional reps listening?

[yannisalex2000]

Over the years I got to know and become friends with some great people from the WDC region, everyone helped everyone else and we had some great times at dinners at different places. I hope they come up with something acceptable for ITR car because I miss people and my friends.

Amen brother Dan I could not have said it better myself.Personally I dont want to be with BB anymore not because of safety or because I finish 20th out of 25 or even because I had to replace my windshield three times the past 2 seasons.Its because I am not having fun.By lap three the faster cars are gone and the few AS slower than me are way behind.DRIVING around SP for 12 out of 16 laps with NO CARS in sight is not my idea of racing.Hell even the workers look bored.

John A.

[jumbojimbo]

Amen brother Dan I could not have said it better myself.Personally I dont want to be with BB anymore not because of safety or because I finish 20th out of 25 or even because I had to replace my windshield three times the past 2 seasons.Its because I am not having fun.By lap three the faster cars are gone and the few AS slower than me are way behind.DRIVING around SP for 12 out of 16 laps with NO CARS in sight is not my idea of racing.Hell even the workers look bored.

John A.

So your class is running nicely seperated behind the faster class and in front of the slower class and that's a problem? I thought that was the ultimate good situation. What you are missing is racing with other class cars and buggering up their race?

I just don't see how ITR is going to win this arguement. Even if they get what they want they are going to bring a tiny number of cars. And they are going to cause pain for much larger classes. ITA is not an unlimited natural resource that shows up no matter what.

[Gregg]

It seems pretty obvious that the ITR guys hate the groupinfg and are speaking with their wallets in WDC.

If you put them into the ITS group, do you lose any of those guys?

Knock knock, are the regional reps listening?
Andy-

Yes we are and we have been since the first ITR cars took the track for the 2007 season. But as I think has been noted here previously, we must also listen and balance the wishes of the other 197+ drivers who race at a regular MARRS weekend. Nobody wants our friends to stay home but, honestly, sometimes you can't please everyone.

BTW-here are the results (http://wdcr-scca.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=GTMD2rAgo88%3d&tabid=75&mid=3643) of the MARRS Big Bore group this past Sunday. Twelve starters / 11 finishers on a 2mi course. And the O.P. (who did not run this weekend) talks about his last event (MARRS4) where there were also 12 starters and 11 finishers. Of course we see a larger number of cars in that group for the 1st event of the year and the Labor Day Double, but as the economy tanked and the drivers with some of the most expensive cars to maintain started staying home, Big Bore became perhaps a better home for ITR than some give it credit for.

Although the ITR drivers think it would be better to weed their way through 30+ non-ITR cars during a race, we must also look at those other drivers and whether they will speak with their wallets.

[dave parker]

Andy
I am listening. But I am only listening to the ITR drivers that have raced in the MARRS ITR races.

I think that the main person to be involved in this discussion is the DC Region ITR drivers representative Marshall Lytle. He is a member of this forum. Perhaps we should have his opinion on this.

cheers
dave parker
DC Region Small Bore Group Rep.

[erlrich]

Although the ITR drivers think it would be better to weed their way through 30+ non-ITR cars during a race, we must also look at those other drivers and whether they will speak with their wallets.

Gregg - not picking on you (besides, I know you have very thick skin), because obviously the majority of the CRC had to vote on this; but why would there be any difference between ITR running in the group with ITA, versus T3 running with ITA (which they do now)? They run almost exactly the same lap times, and I know Don (T3) routinely lapped up to the top 6-8 ITA cars last year when he ran.

I mean, heck, we give SRF their own race group when they're fielding 10-12 cars, we give open wheel two separate groups for what, maybe 20 cars in total? I bet the 170+ drivers who don't race in those classes wouldn't mind seeing open wheel combined into one group, and SRF put back in with small bore. As you said, we can't make everyone happy - but when we do things that we know will keep drivers away maybe we should re-think those things. I would be really, really curious to see a poll of the current MARRS ITA drivers, asking how many would stop racing (or change groups) if they had ITR in the group.

[callard]

I'm thinking that this small group of racers wants to be the biggest fish in another pond and doesn't mind mucking up larger groups of lower well-matched classes in the process. They can't win overall in BB so they want to go somewhere else where they can. :rolleyes:

[Gregg]

Good question, Earl.

Prior to the 2009 season when ITR was placed in Big Bore, T3 ran with ITB/ITC/SRX7/SS. Of course, there had been no T3 cars running in the MARRS series up to that point (maybe they didn't like the grouping :shrug:). When the groupings were realigned, T3 was moved to the new ITA/SRX7 group and we had one regular driver. At times a second driver, a rookie, raced but placed himself at the rear of the grid in order to watch and learn.

That regular T3 driver usually finished a few car lengths ahead of the ITA winner in both 2009 and 2010, running what should be two seconds or more off the pace of a front-running ITR car.

[yannisalex2000]

So your class is running nicely seperated behind the faster class and in front of the slower class and that's a problem? I thought that was the ultimate good situation. What you are missing is racing with other class cars and buggering up their race?

I just don't see how ITR is going to win this arguement. Even if they get what they want they are going to bring a tiny number of cars. And they are going to cause pain for much larger classes. ITA is not an unlimited natural resource that shows up no matter what.

Jim is not about winning or losing an argument.WDCR is the only region that I know off that 1)runs ITR with BB and 2)splits ITR from ITS.Do you suggest that I should be happy with my 10-12 wins over the last 2 seasons because I was the ONLY ITR DRIVER THAT SHOWED UP?I dont think so.Following and watching better drivers, been pushed from behind and going through traffic is the best way for all of us to grow and develop as race car drivers.
Regards
John A.

[yannisalex2000]

I'm thinking that this small group of racers wants to be the biggest fish in another pond and doesn't mind mucking up larger groups of lower well-matched classes in the process. They can't win overall in BB so they want to go somewhere else where they can. :rolleyes:

ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way.

[callard]

ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way.
So get 12 of your bretheren together and perhaps the Region will merge you with IT-S and you'll get what you so rightly deserve.

[benspeed]

I agree John - rolling around the track by yourself is a driver ed day, not a race. It's not always about where you finish but the excitement of passing and being passed and working on race craft. Running door to door with other cars in all classes is where it's at, at least, that's what I like and it's missing at SP for ITR. Lot's of the tracks in the NE have S and R battling to the finish and I don't know anybody complaining about messing up class specific races.

But I don't think this will be a problem because ITR will skip SP and go to NJMP.

I do respect that the guys getting lapped lose some track time. When I ran GT1 at LimeRock the friggin race lasted 15 minutes because we ran in the low 50's for a 15 or 18 lap race. Anybody grouped with GT1 was pretty unhappy - nobody wants a shorter race.

[yannisalex2000]

So get 12 of your bretheren together and perhaps the Region will merge you with IT-S and you'll get what you so rightly deserve.

ITR/ITS... GET IT?Same drivers rep same paddock area, cars eligible to race either.I had decided not to bring my ITR car back to SP but I think I am going to change my mind and do exactly what you suggested.

[erlrich]

So get 12 of your bretheren together and perhaps the Region will merge you with IT-S and you'll get what you so rightly deserve.

Chuck - by that way of thinking EP, FP, GTL, & SPU should also all be running with big bore, as none of them has put even half a dozen cars out this year, and all of them are faster classes than ITR. Add STU once we get a real full-tilt car from that new class, because if they're not faster than ITR something is wrong. I'm sure the GTP drivers will thank you for that too.

[Knestis]

ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way.

This either needs a winky face or it's an amazing arrogant position to take. If you're serious, my concern for your collective position just took a nosedive.

K

[yannisalex2000]

I agree John - rolling around the track by yourself is a driver ed day, not a race. It's not always about where you finish but the excitement of passing and being passed and working on race craft. Running door to door with other cars in all classes is where it's at, at least, that's what I like and it's missing at SP for ITR. Lot's of the tracks in the NE have S and R battling to the finish and I don't know anybody complaining about messing up class specific races.

But I don't think this will be a problem because ITR will skip SP and go to NJMP.

I do respect that the guys getting lapped lose some track time. When I ran GT1 at LimeRock the friggin race lasted 15 minutes because we ran in the low 50's for a 15 or 18 lap race. Anybody grouped with GT1 was pretty unhappy - nobody wants a shorter race.

I understand. I was always envious of the NE ITR/ITS racing watching your videos and such.I am still bringing you a nice picture taken by Roz.

[Greg Amy]

This either needs a winky face or it's an amazing arrogant position to take. If you're serious, my concern for your collective position just took a nosedive.

K
+1. And this isn't the first time I've heard such similar blather from an ITR competitor. I'm quickly becoming less and less empathetic to the class's self-proclaimed "issues".

Suck it up, there's no crying in baseball.

[yannisalex2000]

This either needs a winky face or it's an amazing arrogant position to take. If you're serious, my concern for your collective position just took a nosedive.

K

You are right.I dont know how to use those icons

[dave parker]

ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way.


I hope that this is a typo. Otherwise I am done listening.

cheers
dave parker

[yannisalex2000]

+1. And this isn't the first time I've heard such similar blather from an ITR competitor. I'm quickly becoming less and less empathetic to the class's self-proclaimed "issues".

Suck it up, there's no crying in baseball.

I am not crying I am saying.My concern is about the future of the class at WDCR.

[Greg Amy]

My concern is about the future of the class at WDCR.
Then your solution is quite straightforward: stop bitching that the region is not providing to you other people that are not in your class to "race" with, and spend that effort campaigning among all those Big Fish (tm) to come out and play with you. It's not other people's responsibility to provide playmates for you, it's your responsibility to go out and bring them in.

Otherwise, you're just a big fish completely out of water...

And I'm not talking out of my ass here; I'm involved in a class that's brandy-new just this year, and I'm spending a lot of time at the track campaigning to get a lot of double-dippers in it, a lot of time off the track as a member of the advisory committee to make the class more attractive to others, and a lot of time advising other people on building cars specifically for the class. Yet, it looks like next weekend I'll be doing a solo effort in my class at WGI. You know, them's the breaks! If my class makes it, great; if not then I move on to something else.

And that's life. And baseball.

GA

[dave parker]

Then your solution is quite straightforward: stop bitching that the region is not providing to you other people that are not in your class to "race" with, and spend that effort campaigning among all those Big Fish (tm) to come out and play with you. It's not other people's responsibility to provide playmates for you, it's your responsibility to go out and bring them in.

Otherwise, you're just a big fish completely out of water...

And I'm not talking out of my ass here; I'm involved in a class that's brandy-new just this year, and I'm spending a lot of time at the track campaigning to get a lot of double-dippers in it, a lot of time off the track as a member of the advisory committee to make the class more attractive to others, and a lot of time advising other people on building cars specifically for the class. Yet, it looks like next weekend I'll be doing a solo effort in my class at WGI. You know, them's the breaks! If my class makes it, great; if not then I move on to something else.

And that's life. And baseball.

GA

Bravo! And there ends the lesson.
Waiter, check please.

Well said Greg.

cheers
dave parker

[callard]

Chuck - by that way of thinking EP, FP, GTL, & SPU should also all be running with big bore, as none of them has put even half a dozen cars out this year, and all of them are faster classes than ITR. Add STU once we get a real full-tilt car from that new class, because if they're not faster than ITR something is wrong. I'm sure the GTP drivers will thank you for that too.
Earl, did you not watch the Middle Bore race at Summit last weekend? These exact classes had an excellent race and finished for the most part on the same lap. :happy204:
BB is a catch-all group for many higher HP classes with low entries. Combining appropriate classes in BB and MB groupings makes sense based on the number of cars that show up in those classes these days.
I have no problem with IT-R moving to a group with say IT-S when they can bring their numbers up. But to invade the IT-A or IT-B/IT-S race groupings right now doesn't make sense for the Region just to satisfy an ego.

[dj10]

Then your solution is quite straightforward: stop bitching that the region is not providing to you other people that are not in your class to "race" with, and spend that effort campaigning among all those Big Fish (tm) to come out and play with you. It's not other people's responsibility to provide playmates for you, it's your responsibility to go out and bring them in.GA

Greg, this is the catch 22. I'm not racing in BB hence you can't get me to go to Summit. If they take ITR out of BB we may come and play. I think the answer if ITR people will co-operate is to survey them. I bet you will either find the economy sucks maybe #1 with "Take me the hell out of BB as #2". This is the third year where construction is down so I pick and choise my races carefully, right now the PROIT is where it is at for competition for me anyway.

[erlrich]

Earl, did you not watch the Middle Bore race at Summit last weekend? These exact classes had an excellent race and finished for the most part on the same lap. :happy204:
BB is a catch-all group for many higher HP classes with low entries. Combining appropriate classes in BB and MB groupings makes sense based on the number of cars that show up in those classes these days.
I have no problem with IT-R moving to a group with say IT-S when they can bring their numbers up. But to invade the IT-A or IT-B/IT-S race groupings right now doesn't make sense for the Region just to satisfy an ego.

Chuck - I agree 100%, if the only reason for moving them is to satisfy someone's ego then screw that. I race a Nissan with a truck engine in ITA (sometimes) therefore I'm not allowed to have an ego. My rationale for moving them is a little different. First, I just don't believe ITR is a good fit with GTx, ITE, AS, or T1. Those are all high HP classes (I realized everyone has a different definition of high HP) with cars that haul ass down the straights and then park in the corners; ITR cars (at least the faster ones) don't work that way. The highest HP cars in ITR should be in the mid-upper 200s, many are in the low 200s.

Second, ITR (see also the ST classes) is fairly new, and IMO we should be doing what we can to encourage the growth of the new classes. I know a lot of people will disagree with that, believing we already have too many classes or feeling that no class should get preferential treatment, but I just don't see where grouping classes so as to discourage people from participating in them makes any sense at all. That's just my opinion. If not for the fact that Dave would yell at me I would suggest that small bore is a much better place for ITR, but I don't, so I won't, but suffice it to say that I think there are several other groups more compatible with ITR than big bore.

[Greg Amy]

I'm not racing in BB hence you can't get me to go to Summit.
Dan, your situation is Catch-22 purely by your own choices. Sorry for being blunt, but quit being a big wuss. I've raced with Big Bore on occasion in my 4-cylinder front wheel drive STU/STL car without issue, so can you guys in your bad-ass God-Know-How-Much-Horsepower, rear-wheel-drive BMWs.

To ask - nay, demand - that the organizers hose someone else's (very healthy) group because you're throwing a temper tantrum is silly. Bring the numbers and you have power, but continue to boycott and your strength of position wanes further as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In the end, the choice is yours; your fate is in your own hands. Support ITR at Summit and bring the numbers, or don't. But don't bitch that it's someone else's fault, 'cause it's not.

GA

[yannisalex2000]

Guys this threat is not about fish in a pond,fucking baseball or my ego.I said I couldnt give a rats ass if I finish 1st or 20th.Its about a region that because it groups ITR with BB is killing the class.If anybody thinks that this is the best way to split up the groups then you should petition your regions to follow WDCs lead.

Nough said and to borrow a line from my friend Dan I rest my case whatever that may be.

John A.

[Rob43]

ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way.


This either needs a winky face or it's an amazing arrogant position to take. If you're serious, my concern for your collective position just took a nosedive.

K


+1. And this isn't the first time I've heard such similar blather from an ITR competitor. I'm quickly becoming less and less empathetic to the class's self-proclaimed "issues".

Suck it up, there's no crying in baseball.


I hope that this is a typo. Otherwise I am done listening.

cheers
dave parker


I have known the op John A. (at the track) for several years, I have never experienced a bad attitude from him or seen him act cocky. That's something most of us can't say, most racer's I know including myself have a big "Type A" personality when racing.

When he made this statement: "ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way." I'm quite sure this was not meant to be cocky, but just not knowing how to navigate on this forum. Most posters with Extremely low post counts make mistakes when posting, not to mention Johns thick Greek accent.

He just missed on using a smiley face.

Rob #43 ITR BMW

[dave parker]

Hi Rob
I was not aware that you could hear an accent from a typed statement.
I too think it is a typo or a failure at using Al Gore's internet.

I know John from the track as well, I know that he is not a bad guy.

However, I think that the statement that the region is killing the class because of what run group it has placed it in is foolish at best. The DC region ITR drivers are killing their own class by not participating.

I have asked that the ITR drivers rep join the discussion and have had no response from him.

I can tell you what I do know. ITR is in big bore because that is where the ITR drivers rep wanted the class to be. If the ITR drivers have an issue with that they need to take that issue up with their drivers rep.

cheers
dave parker

[dj10]

But don't bitch that it's someone else's fault, 'cause it's not.
GA

If I polled ITS & R drivers all over the NE I bet the majority wouldn't want to be in with BB. So instead of working with the majority the become obstinate a refuse to compromise. WTF Over!! Sounds like the democrates are in WDC region.:)

I can tell you what I do know. ITR is in big bore because that is where the ITR drivers rep wanted the class to be. If the ITR drivers have an issue with that they need to take that issue up with their drivers rep.

Dave, if your talking about Marshall I know him well and consider him a friend. I do know he a busy person as of late. I will say this, I'm am not a member of the DC region I just love to race there and have been racing Summit since the 70's. If Marshall or whoever is the ITR rep is wants to be in with ITR, they are in the minority. As I said I am not in the DC Region so I'll let you decide whats good for your region and if I like the result you'll probably see me there again. Whether you want to or not. :~)

[yannisalex2000]

I have known the op John A. (at the track) for several years, I have never experienced a bad attitude from him or seen him act cocky. That's something most of us can't say, most racer's I know including myself have a big "Type A" personality when racing.

When he made this statement: "ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way." I'm quite sure this was not meant to be cocky, but just not knowing how to navigate on this forum. Most posters with Extremely low post counts make mistakes when posting, not to mention Johns thick Greek accent.

He just missed on using a smiley face.

Rob #43 ITR BMW

Rob thanks for the support.I LOVE YOU MAN!!!On second thought Nahh not really.

John

P.S You know probably is your fault that we are stuck with BB.LOL

[Gregg]

Good news!

After failing to get it changed (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showpost.php?p=332141&postcount=36) over the winter, the CRC has agreed to to let ITR run with ITA/SM5/T3 at the MARRS Labor Day Double. This is an IT National Tour qualifying event and I would expect to see some of the East's best IT drivers at this event.

Unfortunately the CRC did not want to make this change for next weekend's MARRS event and this is not a permanent change, but I am confident that if all goes well over Labor Day (the last MARRS event of the season) that there's a good chance that we'll see this for all 2013 events.

[gt40jim]

So help me, not being a smartass at all ( I hope) It always takes a while when changes are implimented to see the results. ITR was never THAT big at SP. Marshall, Dan Jones, Rob Powell, Aziz who went ITS to ITR, John in Porsche, Nice guy in MBenz... Maybe a couple I forgot... Sorry.
Marshall just had changes in life that he sold off his car. Dan did not like running with BBore, told me he wasn't coming back. He has also sold his car now! Doc tried it and kept getting tangled with A sdn cars ( Marshall you had said that shouldnt happen but it did and Doc was not the fastest or the slowest in ITR by any means. He currently has the lap record at the Glen in ITR over Dan) Doc no longer has any interest in SP ITR with BBore. Ben Philips in his 968 came down and disliked the class structure, one race, asked nicely if a change could happen and then never came back and won't. If you have an ITR car in the North East now and want to have good races, you run the Pro IT series. Point is even if the structure is changed at Summit, people have left the class or have become comfortable somewhere else. ITR may not come back or may take awhile, a couple years? I feel that the problem lies MUCH deeper in SCCA, the proliferation of classes for one, Pretty soon there will be enough classes that everybody gets to win, yay... And the petty little "fiefdoms" and power struggles. Maybe I'm getting old, but I'm tired of being treated badly by "Kings for a weekend" in SCCA. Flame me all you want but I run guys in NASA and NEVER get treated badly there, Each division is a bought and paid for franchise by one individual. And he wants repeat business. If I have trouble during a race weekend, go see the man! It's fixed with a smile. Change classes mid weekend due to a crash and need to run a backup car, SURE lets get you over to registration open all weekend and fix ya up! I'll say it out in the open, I hate dealing with the old mean bast$*ds in tech at Summit Point, They have been doing it WAAY to long and have lost the idea of service to the membership. Nationals are a joke compared to my youth, they used to be a big deal, now they are mostly the same old guys and low car counts. Nasa races are getting big car counts for a reason. And the youth are there running in HPDE and Time trials moving into the race classes. SCCA is considered a deadend by a lot of the young guys starting out in racing..... RIP ITR@SP and maybe SCCA in my lifetime.
Jim Locke
99 SM NASA/SCCA
99 SM NASA/SCCA
92 SM NASA/SCCA
90 SM NASA/SCCA
87 ITS rx7 SCCA
95 ITR e36 NASA/SCCA
93 ITR e36 NASA/SCCA
99 PTD e46 NASA
82 FF SCCA

[Knestis]

You've got some legitimate beefs there, Jim, but please do not complain about the "proliferation of classes" in one of SCCA's newest classes. The people who created ITR had to make a case against that very issue in order to make it happen.

K

[yannisalex2000]

Jim I agree with you 100% but I do hope we are wrong.If it wasn't for the rule changes this year allowing my car to run in STU I wouldn't go back to SP either.Is Dan out of racing for good or is he planning something else?Anyway tell him that if he wants to come Labor Day weekend he can drive my car.

John A.

By the way a BIG THANKS to Gregg, Dave and all who voted to make the change even if temporary.

[1stgen]

If the ITR count is low in your region YOU need to get it back.
I came to run my car in the scca because they are the oldest and NON profit organization you can run with. I run in ITE with a 4 cyl turbo scirocco....yeah running big bore class with a small car is scary, but fuck is it fun. If you guys can't keep your e36 chassis'd cars up to speed...well no offense but you might have some issues...with your car..or you. Sure some of those big bore dudes park those Mustangs right in front of you, yeah it sux so drive around them. Whatever the case is while driving Jesus' own chariot and easiest car I've evr had the chance to wheel, your there to race each other, so qualify near each other and fucking race godammit. Your problem sounds more like an economics issue with the mid and south series. Here in the NEDIV were not as affected by low car counts. In fact ITR and S are coming on pretty strong here and there not even national classes. We're sorry your sandbox is small, fill it with people you want to hangout with and go have fun. I am kind of an asshole but really a nice guy.

Sorry y'all I'm a little grumpy tonight...but really come race with us in the NEDIV or try and convince some of our S and R guys to head down to you.

[evanwebb]

Two points: 1) Can you guys clean up your language please? This forum does not have a history of people cussing just for yucks as some others do. 2) That's really good news Gregg, even though I don't have an ITR car I just don't think the previous classing was right. I have a fantasy of building an ITR car someday but I will state flatly that if ITR stayed in with the big bore group I would NEVER build it. Why? Not some ridiculous made-up safety issue. Rather, because it's not fun. To me, IT cars should be grouped with other IT cars because it's more fun that way and I do think that if you go to the trouble of building and campaigning the fastest version of an IT car you should have a chance to be the fastest car on track in your group. We do this for fun, right? That's at least part of what Dan and others are saying. Anyway, bravo for the change.

[Knestis]

>> ... I do think that if you go to the trouble of building and campaigning the fastest version of an IT car you should have a chance to be the fastest car on track in your group. We do this for fun, right? That's at least part of what Dan and others are saying.

Actually, Evan, I don't think ANYONE has said that. It's refreshing to hear it, rather than a basket of red herrings about safety that actually apply to all of the slower cars in the group they want to run.

K

[dave parker]

Here is how I see this thing.
I pushed for this change. I think that for the the IT National Tour event at our Labor Day Double weekend ITR should be grouped with IT cars, not in the Big Bore group.
This move was the only hope we had of any ITR cars coming for this event.

If the ITR drivers want this to be a permanent change then I would suggest that they do two things:
1. Come and race the IT National Tour at the DC Region's Labor Day Double. Numbers talk.
2. Come to the DC Region's Open Club Racing Committee Meeting on Saturday night at the Labor Day Double ( you will be there racing and eating the FREE dinner) and tell the committee what you want for the future. Again numbers talk.

It is now in the hands of the ITR drivers. You can make it happen or not, your choice.

cheers
dave parker

[Ron Earp]

Again, why was ITR grouped with big bore cars in the first place? ITR fits perfectly wherever ITS is, and if the ITR cars are not well developed and driven they'll be slower than the top ITS cars.

Was common sense thrown out the window with grouping ITR with big bore? I attend test days that have "Over 3L" and "Under 3L" classes. I sure as hell don't run my ITS Mustang in the over 3L group although it is at 3.8L. Only takes 10 seconds of speaking with the operating authority of the test day to get that cleared up and the car in the group where it belongs.

[dave parker]

Again, why was ITR grouped with big bore cars in the first place? ITR fits perfectly wherever ITS is, and if the ITR cars are not well developed and driven they'll be slower than the top ITS cars.

Was common sense thrown out the window with grouping ITR with big bore? I attend test days that have "Over 3L" and "Under 3L" classes. I sure as hell don't run my ITS Mustang in the over 3L group although it is at 3.8L. Only takes 10 seconds of speaking with the operating authority of the test day to get that cleared up and the car in the group where it belongs.

Ron
ITR was grouped with Big Bore at the request of its then drivers representative to the CRC, Marshall Lytle. I was not on the CRC at the time so I do not know what reasons were given. Any issue with that should be taken up with either him or the current ITR drivers representative.

ITR is being given a chance to run outside of the Big Bore group (with ITA and SM5) for the IT National Tour event during the Labor Day Double. It was the right thing to do for this race (and for future races IMO).
The ITR drivers are being given a golden opportunity to race at Summit Point and prove to the region leadership that there is a reason to permanently move them out of the Big Bore group. It is their choice.

However, if no ITR drivers run at Summit Point for the Labor Day Double then there is no opportunity to make the change.

I have zero to gain in this scenario other than to move a class from a group that it should not be in, to a group where it fits. However, there has to be some effort put forth by the ITR drivers to prove that they want this change to happen. No effort= No change, pretty simple.


cheers
dave parker

[Terry Hanushek]

Dave


Here is how I see this thing.
I pushed for this change. I think that for the the IT National Tour event at our Labor Day Double weekend ITR should be grouped with IT cars, not in the Big Bore group.
This move was the only hope we had of any ITR cars coming for this event.

If the ITR drivers want this to be a permanent change then I would suggest that they do two things:
1. Come and race the IT National Tour at the DC Region's Labor Day Double. Numbers talk.
2. Come to the DC Region's Open Club Racing Committee Meeting on Saturday night at the Labor Day Double ( you will be there racing and eating the FREE dinner) and tell the committee what you want for the future. Again numbers talk.

It is now in the hands of the ITR drivers. You can make it happen or not, your choice.

There is another way to look at this situation. The policy that WDCR has right now is NOT working - there have been virtually no ITR entries at Summit Point in the past couple or three years. The ITR drivers that were competing have left and no one in the region is rushing to buy / build an ITR car. You acknowledge as much in the comment I highlighted in your post.

Rather than a 'speak now or hold your peace' challenge to ITR drivers, perhaps a better approach would be a permanent move to the ITS group - provide some stability and allow the class to grow. It certainly can't be worse than the current policy.

I'm not jumping on you as I know that you have supported this move in the past. This is more of a message to the CRC to take a global look at this situation.

See ya at the races

Terry

[seckerich]

The ITR cars will run with ITS, etc at the MARRS/SARRC race at Charlotte Motor Speedway August 18/19. Come play on the high banks!! :023:

[dave parker]

Dave



There is another way to look at this situation. The policy that WDCR has right now is NOT working - there have been virtually no ITR entries at Summit Point in the past couple or three years. The ITR drivers that were competing have left and no one in the region is rushing to buy / build an ITR car. You acknowledge as much in the comment I highlighted in your post.

Rather than a 'speak now or hold your peace' challenge to ITR drivers, perhaps a better approach would be a permanent move to the ITS group - provide some stability and allow the class to grow. It certainly can't be worse than the current policy.

I'm not jumping on you as I know that you have supported this move in the past. This is more of a message to the CRC to take a global look at this situation.

See ya at the races

Terry

Terry
I agree with you. However, there are members of our CRC whom do not share that vision of the world. To them numbers talk, and everything else is secondary.

I think having ITR in the Big Bore group is foolish. The ITR drivers do not want to be there, the Big Bore class drivers do not want them there. Hence the ITR drivers have stayed away.
The IT National Tour event at our Labor Day Double is great chance for the ITR drivers to prove that they will run at Summit Point if they are placed in the proper group.

I can tell you that several ITR drivers are currently running their cars at Summit in STU which is one class in the group that I represent on the CRC. I am glad to have them. They are fast and race clean. I would be sorry to see them leave my group for a properly race grouped ITR class, as I value their participation. They are good guys.

I am one vote of ten on the CRC. I think moving ITR out of the Big Bore group is a good idea. There are more representatives on the committee that need convincing.
I have done what I can to try to change the situation. Others with more skin in the game need to step up for the big play, you have a great chance Labor Day weekend.

I have said all can on this subject. I am out.

cheers
dave parker

[StephenB]

Dave, I know you said you are out but can you help with just one more post since you are in the "inside" :)

What do we (ITR drivers) need to do to "prove we belong"? Numbers don't prove anything other than the fact that we will come from a far... (which I don't think anyone will, which I will get into below). What if we mess up whatever is holding them back in first place then I am sure we will get bumped back to big bore for whatever the real reason is. So if you don't mind sharing what we need to do to "prove that we belong" I would really appreciate it.


I cannot attend for a few simple reasons, neither to do with the run groups.
1.) car is at the frame shop
2.) I don't have the money to spend on a 13hr tow.
3.) If #1 didn't matter and I had #2 I still would never make the tow without 10 or so cars entered. If I am going to spend that kind of money towing to your event then I want other cars to race, not just to come and do a track day.


My personal opinion on the situation:
I think that most of the guys running in ITR do enjoy racing for overall in the race. In fact I considered either ITA or ITR since in my region both those classes are the fastest in their respective run groups. I ran in ITB for over 11 years and was bummed when I got lapped and had zero possiblity of staying up with the ITS and ITR cars. I had the BEST races ever but wanted to be with the fast guys. I honestly didn't build an ITS car because I personally think ITR will continue to grow and ITS will slowely decline (In the northeast) For the simple fact I think people want to win overall if they have the ability to do so. Lets face it we are racers and we all want to be the fastest. I think Summitt may have low LOCAL car counts in this class probably for this reason as a possible root cause which then creates the biger issue that in reality who wants to build a 20K+ car without any other cars to race against.


So I think we have a catch 22. No local ITR cars, & no-one that wants to travel since their is no-one to race with down at that track and the class just stays stagnant without any growth. To be honest I think if Summitt had 15 cars entered in ITR in the Big bore group then hell ya I would make the trip and I think others would two, and actually care less if it was with Big Bore or not. In the end for "outsiders" like me to visit the run group may not matter as much as those in this post are making it out to be and it's just a matter of local car counts.

So long story short, go ask each person that has built a new car in the last 5 yrs running summitt and ask them why they didn't build an ITR car. this will give you your answer, like it or not :) If you get local racers to fill the class those of us willing and able to travel will probably start to do so. Until then I am not willing to spend the money and expense to make the trip.

Stephen

[Ron Earp]

The ITR cars will run with ITS, etc at the MARRS/SARRC race at Charlotte Motor Speedway August 18/19. Come play on the high banks!! :023:

Glad your region runs races and race groups sans drama. Thanks.

Really, are you guys in WDC going to vote on where ITR runs? And there are folks who resist allowing ITR to run where the ITR drivers want to run? Seriously, this seems like a mickey mouse decision that should be made over a beer the night before the races. It doesn't need debate, ten votes, and then ratification by all concerned to get the job done.

[JeffYoung]

ITR/S/A/7 has worked so well for so long in the SEDiv I have always wondered why anyone did anything else. Good racing throughout the field, and no unnecessary lapping. Slow S guys get races with fast A/7s, and S and R compete for the overall win.

[gt40jim]

You've got some legitimate beefs there, Jim, but please do not complain about the "proliferation of classes" in one of SCCA's newest classes. The people who created ITR had to make a case against that very issue in order to make it happen.

K
Love the discourse here :happy204: I AM against the proliferation of classes. I am a race prep shop owner and no longer a driver. 35 year SCCA member. Loved my Formula Ford racing!! Summit in the eighties and early ninetys! We Ford guys had our own field and it was badaz racing! Sigh where is my Geritol.... and glasses... If my customer wants to run in a new class like hmmm.... STFU Then I will build and support it :D But not like it except for the $ (Got bills to pay) Jim

[gt40jim]

If the ITR count is low in your region YOU need to get it back.
I came to run my car in the scca because they are the oldest and NON profit organization you can run with. I run in ITE with a 4 cyl turbo scirocco....yeah running big bore class with a small car is scary, but fuck is it fun. If you guys can't keep your e36 chassis'd cars up to speed...well no offense but you might have some issues...with your car..or you. Sure some of those big bore dudes park those Mustangs right in front of you, yeah it sux so drive around them. Whatever the case is while driving Jesus' own chariot and easiest car I've evr had the chance to wheel, your there to race each other, so qualify near each other and fucking race godammit. Your problem sounds more like an economics issue with the mid and south series. Here in the NEDIV were not as affected by low car counts. In fact ITR and S are coming on pretty strong here and there not even national classes. We're sorry your sandbox is small, fill it with people you want to hangout with and go have fun. I am kind of an asshole but really a nice guy.

Sorry y'all I'm a little grumpy tonight...but really come race with us in the NEDIV or try and convince some of our S and R guys to head down to you.
I have NO problem with the sanctioning body being profit or not. I want to be treated decently by whomever and SCCA is slipping relative to the new guys. P.S. Other than SCCA, I can't think of any other sanctioning body I have worked in that doesn't try to make a profit. Wait "Southern California Timing association". They run the Bonneville salt flats "Speedweeks". And they are very difficult to work with!!!!! Hmmm club again.
I'm sorry but I do take some offense at your e36 chassis comments. My two customers with ITR cars hold or have held 5 lap records over the last two years. They still cannot just "drive around" a V8 Mustang car that is being a jerk in the corners and blocking ya up and then using there 100 plus hp advantage on corner exit. A 200 hp ITR e36 is still somewhat of a momentum car at 2800 lbs. ITR/ITS e36 differences are really like 10 hp, rim diameter and a little weight. They belong together is all I'm saying.

[jumbojimbo]

Glad your region runs races and race groups sans drama. Thanks.

Really, are you guys in WDC going to vote on where ITR runs? And there are folks who resist allowing ITR to run where the ITR drivers want to run? Seriously, this seems like a mickey mouse decision that should be made over a beer the night before the races. It doesn't need debate, ten votes, and then ratification by all concerned to get the job done.

Wait, are you really saying all that matters is where ITR wants to run? You aren't concerned at all of the impacts to other classes/groups, their concerns aren't valid and only the needs of ITR should be considered? Good luck with that.

Edit: I know, I know, ITR is just telling you their reasons and from their perspective, these are valid reasons. But it sure seems like it's all take and no give.

[seckerich]

Jim we grouped ITR with big bore for a year in the southeast. Drivers said they would quit before ever running in that group again. Given that Summit is much smaller than most tracks we run, but they do not race well with GT. We listened and they run up front and usually barely catch the tail of the field. ITS cars even beat them occasionally on a handling track. Your results may vary. In the end they are a customer and deserve to be given a fair shot at fun just like the other classes, just that simple.

[evanwebb]

I would like to second all those who have advocated that this change in WDC given permanent status. It will take time for the class to grow back to where it was, it was "damaged" by the grouping in Big Bore and will need time to recover. I hope the region sends out emails to everyone notifying them of the change?

[Ron Earp]

Wait, are you really saying all that matters is where ITR wants to run? You aren't concerned at all of the impacts to other classes/groups, their concerns aren't valid and only the needs of ITR should be considered? Good luck with that.


No, what I'm really saying is it is a trivial matter and doesn't require an act of congress to change, or at least it shouldn't.

The run groupings aren't working the way it is being done now. ITR runs with ITS/ITA/IT7 in the NCR-SCCA, CCR-SCCA, FLR-SCCA, and Bucaneer region. I've raced ITS in those four regions with ITR cars in that group and it seems to work very well.

[dave parker]

Dave, I know you said you are out but can you help with just one more post since you are in the "inside" :)

Stephen

Stephen
I will suggest what I have already suggested. ITR drivers need to come race the Labor Day Double event when ITR is grouped with other IT classes. A showing of ITR cars at this event will help to prove the need for this change to be made permanent.
No showing of ITR cars = no need for change.

cheers
dave parker

[erlrich]

Just to add another opinion - I don't think the (permanent) change should be contingent upon whether there is a good ITR turnout for the Labor Day event or not. We KNOW the current ITR drivers aren't going to come race if the class stays with big bore. We also know that ITR car counts are low enough that they will not cause most groups to go over their limit (unless we group them with SM, which might actually be interesting to watch:D). Moving them into a group where they will have little to no impact on the racing, but is more attractive to the drivers, just makes good sense.

In the MARRS series ITA currently races with T3 and SM5, ITS runs with ITB & SS. I see no reason why ITR couldn't race well with either of those groups. JMHO.

[dave parker]

Wait, are you really saying all that matters is where ITR wants to run? You aren't concerned at all of the impacts to other classes/groups, their concerns aren't valid and only the needs of ITR should be considered? Good luck with that.

Edit: I know, I know, ITR is just telling you their reasons and from their perspective, these are valid reasons. But it sure seems like it's all take and no give.

Jim
This is one of the most insightful posts I have seen in this whole discussion.
There many factors to consider when race groups are put together. Safety is the primary factor, but the second factor is participation numbers. The overall effect on race groupings is very long reaching as we have seen with this issue.

Another thing to thing about is that what works for one region does not always work well for another region. I would not pretend to tell folks from another region how to run their race program.

cheers
dave parker

[StephenB]

Stephen
I will suggest what I have already suggested. ITR drivers need to come race the Labor Day Double event when ITR is grouped with other IT classes. A showing of ITR cars at this event will help to prove the need for this change to be made permanent.
No showing of ITR cars = no need for change.

cheers
dave parker

Thanks. I think the region will be happy with the results then. I do not think participation will be high if at all which would be a good basis for the region to say... I told you so.


Let me know when you all figure things out. Get 10 + cars and I will consider making the trip.
The racegroup doesnt matter to me.

Stephen

[yannisalex2000]

Can I put up some prize money?Is that allowable?Would that give you guys(ITR drivers)an incentive to come down for Labor Day weekend?I was thinking $350 Sunday and $350 Monday for the winners, providing we get a minimum of six cars not counting me.

John A.

[lateapex911]

Dave, I love ya, and I know you're speaking for the folks who run things, and you're just the messenger, but...

When the Washington PTB put ITR into big bore, it was like shooting all the ITR drivers. They either quit racing, took their car elsewhere, or moved to another class. (For the most part)

So, now, having the PTB say, "Hey you ITR folk, NOW is your chance...you want to prove you're worthy of moving into another group, show up in good numbers at this one race, and we will consider the move permanently. Otherwise you stay where you are"..

But the local ITR guys are on the floor, after being shot, LOL...unresponsive, essentially. There aint no drivers to respond!
And guys with ITR cars from up further way, like NER, such as Blethen, well, they won't make the tow without a reasonable expectation of a couple cars to run with.

Not to mention, people budget the season in advance, and schedule things like vacations and races far in advance. I know when I was racing, there's no way I'd just "jump" and add a labor day race at summitt unless it was already planned for.

I know you know all this, but let the PTB know that if they REALLY want ITR cars, they're going to have to rebuild the flock, and that takes time.

[RSTPerformance]

I don't understand why groupings are so diffict except when you have to many cars in a class. ITR should fit in 1-3 groups. If it shouldn't be in the group then it shouldn't be in the group. If it can be in the group but nobody wants it in that group alternatives should be looked at. If it can be in a group and that is where people want to race then put it in that group. Car counts should NOT be a factor and I think the region is being very arrogant with its requirement that cars show up... How many need to race 2,3,10??? Come on Dave you have to admit those sort of threats are pathetic at best. Do what the region feels is right and keep it consistent. People who don't like it locally can join the board and help to make the change. Others From a far can just continue to race locally, keep our car counts up and spend the money with the region that does care about them ;)

Raymond

[Cobrar05]

ok, 'splain somethin' to me? itr cars lapping the field is bad so the itr cars get moved to big bore so they get lapped twice or more by the gt1 and sto cars?

running my mustangs in the big bore group i regularly get lapped at least once by the fast cars. they are 7 or 8 seconds a lap faster than i am at road atlanta. what am i missing?

[dave parker]

ok, 'splain somethin' to me? itr cars lapping the field is bad so the itr cars get moved to big bore so they get lapped twice or more by the gt1 and sto cars?

running my mustangs in the big bore group i regularly get lapped at least once by the fast cars. they are 7 or 8 seconds a lap faster than i am at road atlanta. what am i missing?

Rob
Nothing.

cheers
dave parker

[1stgen]

I have NO problem with the sanctioning body being profit or not. I want to be treated decently by whomever and SCCA is slipping relative to the new guys. P.S. Other than SCCA, I can't think of any other sanctioning body I have worked in that doesn't try to make a profit. Wait "Southern California Timing association". They run the Bonneville salt flats "Speedweeks". And they are very difficult to work with!!!!! Hmmm club again.
I'm sorry but I do take some offense at your e36 chassis comments. My two customers with ITR cars hold or have held 5 lap records over the last two years. They still cannot just "drive around" a V8 Mustang car that is being a jerk in the corners and blocking ya up and then using there 100 plus hp advantage on corner exit. A 200 hp ITR e36 is still somewhat of a momentum car at 2800 lbs. ITR/ITS e36 differences are really like 10 hp, rim diameter and a little weight. They belong together is all I'm saying.

I'm only gonna say one thing. If your making less than 230 wheel with that m3 motor than you have some issues. Those motors with cams and exhaust easily make 230+ hp....I have driven many of these cars in JP bmwcca trim. Fast, fast fast

[StephenB]

I'm only gonna say one thing. If your making less than 230 wheel with that m3 motor than you have some issues. Those motors with cams and exhaust easily make 230+ hp....I have driven many of these cars in JP bmwcca trim. Fast, fast fast

How about without the cams?

Stephen

[Z3_GoCar]

How about without the cams?

Stephen

Stock M3 cams fit in all the ITR BMW's and easily add 15-20hp at the wheel and are visually indistingushable from stock. Bolt on an OBDI manifold and you get another easy 15-20hp, that's how a car that stock makes 160hp at the wheel gets to 205-215hp at the wheel. That's also why BMW club gave up trying to police cams, who brings a spintron and the proper equiptment to pull cams to the track? If you break my cams pulling them without the proper tools in impound are you going to buy me new ones? I have yet to see our grid people pull a valve cover, they're overworked just taking weights.

[JoshS]

Stock M3 cams fit in all the ITR BMW's and easily add 15-20hp at the wheel and are visually indistingushable from stock.

...

I have yet to see our grid people pull a valve cover, they're overworked just taking weights.

Not all the ITR BMWs James, only the E36 engines.

And, of course, just because they don't check doesn't mean it's not cheating.

[Z3_GoCar]

Not all the ITR BMWs James, only the E36 engines.

And, of course, just because they don't check doesn't mean it's not cheating.

Agreed on the cheating part... You have to get to know your competition, and just how ethical they as a person are.

I'm just pointing out that it's so easy to do this kind of thing... The e46 based motors have the 330ZHP cams. These motors share so many parts, it's really hard to tell visually.

[gt40jim]

I'm only gonna say one thing. If your making less than 230 wheel with that m3 motor than you have some issues. Those motors with cams and exhaust easily make 230+ hp....I have driven many of these cars in JP bmwcca trim. Fast, fast fast
Number one, ITR does not allow M3 parts. Number two My cars run legal Lots of dyno time on our cars and never made NEAR 230 horse. We are not JP trim. You have issues, insinuating that I cheat because I complain about being stuck in big bore. Geeez, Some peoples kids.... And I'm happy to hear that you're only gonna say one thing AND you have said it... Jim Locke 35 year member and PROUD to prepare legal and winning cars. (Good drivers too) :happy204:

[gt40jim]

Stock M3 cams fit in all the ITR BMW's and easily add 15-20hp at the wheel and are visually indistingushable from stock. Bolt on an OBDI manifold and you get another easy 15-20hp, that's how a car that stock makes 160hp at the wheel gets to 205-215hp at the wheel. That's also why BMW club gave up trying to police cams, who brings a spintron and the proper equiptment to pull cams to the track? If you break my cams pulling them without the proper tools in impound are you going to buy me new ones? I have yet to see our grid people pull a valve cover, they're overworked just taking weights.
Protest, pull the cam cover, rotate the motor with a dial indicator longstem on the bucket and you will catch an M3 cam over a std cam. At the ARRC we have to pull the cams and head. I got no problem with that. Bring your tools to safely pull your motor apart. It's a cost of racing. All ya need to properly check ANY cam is a degree wheel, vee blocks, a dial indicator and the stock specs or a sample stock cam. BMWs are no the only cars that have visually indistingushable cams from performance versions. M or a regrind. Universal problem. BTW I like your Z3! Nice car! Jim

[jjjanos]

Dave, I love ya, and I know you're speaking for the folks who run things, and you're just the messenger, but...

When the Washington PTB put ITR into big bore, it was like shooting all the ITR drivers. They either quit racing, took their car elsewhere, or moved to another class. (For the most part)

The ITR drivers were collateral damage. ITS were put into Big Bore for valid reasons when DC consolidated run groups to allow for Saturday racing and ITR was swept up.

ITS was moved mid season because the pairing with Big Bore wasn't working for the very reasons that IT didn't want the class. The powers that be decided that potentially writing off ITB car was better than potentially writing off a GT car. ITR should have been moved at the time, but wasn't. The classes that were impacted by the change certainly weren't going to stand up and ask for it and I don't know if ITR asked for it, but chances are the DR wasn't even there.

As for the complaints regarding speed differentials -- would you like a Brie or a Swiss? The Gap between ITR and ITC is very similar to the gap between GT1 and ITR.