PDX and young drivers

[Flyinglizard]

Hey now, the SCCA PDX uses an 18yr old min age limit. The min age for race school is 14-16. This make no sense.
How does SCCA get the kids in a car with an instructor at 14-16yrs old? NASA does it, Skippy does it. By the time the kids are 18, they have bad habits and other interest.
Who is in charge??
TIA, MM

[Z3_GoCar]

Hey now, the SCCA PDX uses an 18yr old min age limit. The min age for race school is 14-16. This make no sense.
How does SCCA get the kids in a car with an instructor at 14-16yrs old? NASA does it, Skippy does it. By the time the kids are 18, they have bad habits and other interest.
Who is in charge??
TIA, MM

Agreed on this, adults and children should not be on the track at the same time (the legal definition of children is anyone under 18). I was talking to a lawyer friend, she mentioned that a parent can't sign away a childs rights. If something happens, the state steps in and appoints a legal guardian. If a hot pit parent thinks Jr or Danica is the next hot pro racer, let them race karts against other 14-17's.

[Flyinglizard]

My point is to get them out of karts and into cars with instructors. There is a big hole from karts to road racing.

[Simon T.]

So you think someone 18 and under shouldn't be on a race track?

I wasn't aware they changed the age limit for PDX. I was seventeen for my first.

[Flyinglizard]

I think that they should.

[dave parker]

I am not sure how correct the age statement is. The DC Region PDX program allows drivers 16 and older to participate but a parent or guardian must be on site at all times.

This is right from the chairman of the program whom works right down the hall from me.

cheers
dave parker

[Z3_GoCar]

So you think someone 18 and under shouldn't be on a race track?

I wasn't aware they changed the age limit for PDX. I was seventeen for my first.

When a court can appoint a legal counsel, in place of a parent or gaurdian (who believes they have signed their childs right to sue or hold another liable but hasn't,) that believes that participation in dangerous activities (ie. motorsports) is irresponsible behavior. This court appointed representitive can and probably would hold another adult liable.

The net/net is that courts are very intolerant of dangerous interactions between adults and minors, when that behavior is prefectly acceptable between consenting adults.

[preparedcivic]

When a court can appoint a legal counsel, in place of a parent or gaurdian (who believes they have signed their childs right to sue or hold another liable but hasn't,) that believes that participation in dangerous activities (ie. motorsports) is irresponsible behavior. This court appointed representitive can and probably would hold another adult liable.

The net/net is that courts are very intolerant of dangerous interactions between adults and minors, when that behavior is prefectly acceptable between consenting adults.

Are you familiar with the SCCA Minor Waiver that covers hot activities? I am. The under 18 participant is required to complete and sign the document, with Notary acknowledgment at the same time the parents endorse as well. That seems to show the minor is engaged in the process.

The SCCA has to do something to decrease the age of its demographics, otherwise it -will- just be 70 year old coots racing cars from the 60's.

[Flyinglizard]

The CFR guy in charge fails to respond, as does the chief instructor.
So maybe it is 16 at the National level?

[Simon T.]

When a court can appoint a legal counsel, in place of a parent or gaurdian (who believes they have signed their childs right to sue or hold another liable but hasn't,) that believes that participation in dangerous activities (ie. motorsports) is irresponsible behavior. This court appointed representitive can and probably would hold another adult liable.

The net/net is that courts are very intolerant of dangerous interactions between adults and minors, when that behavior is prefectly acceptable between consenting adults.

As said the minor waiver seems to work just fine, plus I know far more older guys that shouldn't be on track than younger ones. :p

[Z3_GoCar]

Are you familiar with the SCCA Minor Waiver that covers hot activities? I am. The under 18 participant is required to complete and sign the document, with Notary acknowledgment at the same time the parents endorse as well. That seems to show the minor is engaged in the process.

The SCCA has to do something to decrease the age of its demographics, otherwise it -will- just be 70 year old coots racing cars from the 60's.


As said the minor waiver seems to work just fine, plus I know far more older guys that shouldn't be on track than younger ones. :p

An easy google search yeilds several tort cases where parental signed waivers are invalidated by courts. Probably the best two cases are in Iowa and Alabama. In the Iowa case, the defendant was the State University system. While in the Alabama case, it was a motocross park.

http://www.releaselaw.com/PDF/Galloway_v%20_State.pdf

If the SCCA isn't careful with this, they may get sued out of existance.

[tom91ita]

in my appeal to the BOD as to why H&NR should be optional, i cited the florida state supreme couirt case that ruled that a parent signing away a minor's rights obviously did not have the minor's best interests in mind.

if they are going to claim requiring H&NR in the name of "reduced risk of lawsuits" then allowing minors on track to race does not make sense.

as you linked, there are multiple cases to cite where minor waivers have been over-ruled. has anyone seen a case where an adult that raced without SFI 38.1 H&NR per their personal choice has sued a sanctioning body?

you can't claim you are afraid of the lawsuit boogey man kicking in your front door when you are inviting him into your kitchen via the back door.

tom

who will NOT argue one bit that younger drivers might be better.....
who has a H&NR but not an SFI 38.1 appproved one....
who also let his SCCA membership lapse 6/30/2011 after 26 years.

[preparedcivic]

If any sactioning body isn't careful with this, they may get sued out of existance.

Fixed in bold, as I cannot think of any non-pro sanctioning body in car racing that does not mix minors with adults, from thev local roundy-round tracks to NASA. SCCA was among the last to establish an allowance for minors to compete.

[Flyinglizard]

Talked with Peter ar risk management. He said that the PDX age is 18. I also ran by him the thought of two in the car at race schools , for in car training,not racing. The cars would have to be the same both sides of course. IE ralley net and seat specs.
Regardless of the legal issues, The fact is that in car training at an early age makes for better street drivers and better racers. I took My Son out of karts @ 13 because of the speeds. We started solo racing at 14, both riding for the other's runs. ( he was in karts @ 5) It is amazing what you can learn from each other. It is also a great feeling when the kid beats you. ( Mike also ran the ministock @ 14-16)
That car control has been applied to his road racing and the knowlege has been applied to the street. Much more respect for rain, much more respect for stopping distance , etc.
NASA races the kids as young as 13. They PDX them at the same age with waivers. Most of the standard PDX age is 16.
Yeah the kids are faster than most of us. The Teen Mazda Challenge had 4 of the top 5 places OA at the last race.
If parents can put their kids in FA cars and bikes, @ 14and 15, I dont see why we can put them in training cars at 15. Makes no sense.
I am going to put together a plan and send it off. If the pro schools can do it, why cant SCCA. ??
MIke Ogren

[SMac92]

In my region I started instructing PDX's when I was 16 and my friend started the same time when he was 17. I think the minor waiver solves the problem. Our chief instructor told me that if I wanted to get anybody from my High School to go to a PDX that was under 18 they would just need to sign a minor waiver as well. I wonder if it varies by region?

Steven

[Matt Rowe]

This is one of those rare occasions where I get to say read the rule book and not have to refer to the GCR. The Time Trials program has it's own rulebook, the Time Trials Rules (TTR) and 3.1.3.A address the issue:

3.1.3.A - Have a current SCCA membership. Participants under the age of 18 must have prior approval from SCCA Club Racing.

[Matt93SE]

I have seen 16 yr olds at many other DE events as well- whether sanctioned by Driver's Edge, local car clubs, or whatever. they simply have a minor waiver and a parent on hand and they're out there with the rest of them. I've instructed a couple 16 yr old girls (dirty thoughts aside), and their parents came back to me at the next track event and specifically asked if I could instruct them again.. One told me how much better their daughter drove on the street immediately after the event since I placed most of my importance on getting around the track safely and spacial awareness i.e. watching mirrors and being predictable when faster traffic came up and using hand signals when needed. This translates directly to street driving by watching your mirrors and predicting what other cars are going to do.

Anyway, I see lots of other places letting minors run and 15 yr olds club racing in SCCA, so why not let them run in PDX as well? it only makes sense..

[EV]

This is one of those rare occasions where I get to say read the rule book and not have to refer to the GCR. The Time Trials program has it's own rulebook, the Time Trials Rules (TTR) and 3.1.3.A address the issue:

3.1.3.A - Have a current SCCA membership. Participants under the age of 18 must have prior approval from SCCA Club Racing.Which I believe means a national minor waiver (not the one signed at the track, I mean the one you have to send into and receive from national)

[Matt Rowe]

Which I believe means a national minor waiver (not the one signed at the track, I mean the one you have to send into and receive from national)

Correct. They should also be issuing a TT Novice Permit for help in tracking that they are waivered.