Would you compete in a series that doesn't require a competition license?

[mtownneon]

Just as the title asks,

Would you compete in a series/club that doesn't require a competition license?

Discuss?

[Eagle7]

Do you mean wheel to wheel race with someone with absolutely no racing background? Uhmmmmm, nooooooo.

[ulfelder]

Do you mean wheel to wheel race with someone with absolutely no racing background? Uhmmmmm, nooooooo.

Yeah, what he said. No way, no how.

[manny]

i dont think so. nothing like the knowledge and schooling of competition racing.

[gran racing]

Semantics.

I want to race w2w with people who are safe and respectful. If that means they look at experience before they allow one to participate but no "competition license" is required, fine. On the other hand, if they just collect money and then people get a license, it really doesn't matter there either.

[TStiles]

I compete in ChumpCar . They have minimal licensing requirements.

I've had fewer problems in ChumpCar than in SCCA ... Let me expand on that ;

In SCCA you are generally going W2W with people who have skills & confidence. They don't hesitate to block or nudge and when passing both cars are on the edge.

In ChumpCar , most of the new drivers understand their lack of experience and a skilled driver ( even in a slower car ) has little trouble making passes without putting the car in danger ... I've only had one driver block me ( my " passion " made me want to punt , but my experience reigned me back in )

Having said that , since I've joined the team we brought the car safety up to SCCA standards.

[Russ Myers]

Semantics.

I want to race w2w with people who are safe and respectful. If that means they look at experience before they allow one to participate but no "competition license" is required, fine. On the other hand, if they just collect money and then people get a license, it really doesn't matter there either.


You mean like Spec Miata drivers.

Russ

[JLawton]

Just as the title asks,

Would you compete in a series/club that doesn't require a competition license?

Discuss?

Welcome to any small circle track in the country. Actually, they do require a license. You give them $15 bucks and they give you a license.

Safety gear inspection?? None needed. Annual car tech? Nope. Sober? Not manditory. Too fat to get out of the car withing 60 seconds? Oh well.

And we argue about a stupid SFI rating..................



.

[downingracing]

I run with SCCA only. With what I know about safety and how events are run, I won't even run with any 'for profit' organization. Most folks don't feel this way - but I do.

I'd like to see more 'effort' needed to get a comp. license as it is....

[Matt93SE]

I've run with LeMons for a few years. There are really good drivers who are not SCCA/NASA racers. There are also some absolutely hideous drivers out there who are either roadblocks or madmen.

That said, I've run into the same thing at club races. At the last national, they had 4 people running >30sec a lap off the front runners. They rarely checked their mirrors and would come down on you in the middle of a turn so you had to be careful if you even thought about passing them near a turn. Just like LeMons! :)

That said, most of the bad LeMons drivers are consistently bad enough that I learned really quick which cars to avoid and I just drove around them on the straight and would wait if I caught them in a corner. patience wins the day there.

As for safety, our LeMons Miata cage is the same as my STU cage and is considerably better than the Autopower Miata cage which LeMons would not allow. I've had more hassles getting our LeMons car through tech than I have with my STU car. Safety requirements have REALLY caught up with them-- very likely due to bad experiences with cars they've run across the last few events.

[tom91ita]

define series and define competition license.

pro solo series, i do not think a license is needed.

scca regionals, i don't think a comp license is needed. you can race with a novice permit, correct?

i intend to race at least one lemons event next year. this will be in lieu of SCCA events. everyone on the team will be either a licensed driver, has been a licensed driver or has extensive instructor experience at various track days. note that this was as an instructor, not with an instructor.

i checked out the lap times for the lemons cars at the local track and they were turning some ITA lap times.

requiring a license does not ensure skill and having skill does not require a license. and my limited experience of crewing for endurance events is that you typically run at 95% as a means of making sure you first finish, etc.

[Simon T.]

scca regionals, i don't think a comp license is needed. you can race with a novice permit, correct?

I believe you still have a novice permit or license but did the schooling, you just need to complete the races to get your actual regional license.

As for the OP question. I think ChumpCar and LeMons is a pretty good field, but I think if there were another series that didn't have the "just for fun" hype you would run into problems. I could easily see kids showing up ready to go balls out from the "import scene" taking people out left and right.

[Flyinglizard]

We run a lot of Chumpcar, Our team consist of about 80% ex SCCA/ImSA drivers. The facts are that the Chumpcar drivers are pretty safe.
IE; they slow down on yellow flags. The SCCA guys race until the next flag and have gotten black flagged for it. The true newbies are few, and quit apparent. Remember, that the races are 7 hrs long and lots of seat time is the result. The newbies are way better and prettyfast at the end of the event.
For reference, we have two fresh SCCA Novice permit guys that are the slow end of the lap times.
WE take the entire team to Roebling Road and do drive arounds with the track day/ITB Golf, instructor in the car. This has closed the lap time gap to about 2 sec.
Chumpcar has been a gas. The drivers have been nice and put having a good time in front of winning.
We still want to win.
The cars are safer than the IT rules/ RE cages are tied to the rockers, B post, etc. Our car looks like a total POS, but it is really good to drive and pretty fast.
The prep time is about 4/1 track time.Typical endurance prep time.
MM

[tom91ita]

flying lizard sort of pointed out what i was getting at. that is by the end of the event, even the noobies are better.

a fresh SCCA novice permit holder (me too...) has very minimal experience. my first couple of races were as much about keeping out of the way as it was about trying to pass. a fresh LeChump noob will not be much different. especially if he has done some track days, etc. and i will not throw down my share of the cash and prep time with someone that will take us out in the first half hour.

as more folks that were SCCA say let's just have some fun, i think the LeMons and Chumps could continue to get better. the entry fees and prep work will still keep the general riff raff out. the import scene folks with their bolt-in 1" cusco powder coated aluminum "cages" will not show up.

fun has always been part of the SCCA / NASA scene. having a few beers with friends and talking the race at the saturday night festivities is one of the reasons all of us go. if i did not know folks racing at the ARRC, it would not be nearly as fun to be there or to spectate.

[Drew M]

I could easily see kids showing up ready to go balls out from the "import scene" taking people out left and right.

That is how I understood the question. We've all been caught in this conversation; 'That sounds like fun! Can I drive my maxima on the track?!' I would not want to be anywhere near the track when someone so clueless gets on.

The required schools are great for gaining experience with traffic.

[TStiles]

I've run with LeMons for a few years. There are really good drivers who are not SCCA/NASA racers. There are also some absolutely hideous drivers out there who are either roadblocks or madmen.

That said, I've run into the same thing at club races. At the last national, they had 4 people running >30sec a lap off the front runners. They rarely checked their mirrors and would come down on you in the middle of a turn so you had to be careful if you even thought about passing them near a turn. Just like LeMons! :)
.

Matt , You are right , That last race @ TWS was a trip with the slower RX7's ... I just wish I had not been a nice guy with the EP car , thus ending our race.

In regard to Chump newbies , our Team owner was a green student of mine a couple of years ago @ The Driver's Edge ... As a result of his TDE experience , he caught the bug big time , and made the choice to compete in ChumpCar vs. SCCA ... And by the way , he's alot faster / safer than some of the guys at our last SCCA race.

Not to hijack the thread , but there are so many options for people these days. When I started racing with SCCA , it was the only W2W option. The track day option did not exist beyond PCA ... Today's new SCCA/NASA driver should be much better prepared than I was in 1987 , today's newbie's can get in car instruction , classroom instruction , you tubes of the tracks , ect.

When I came up , I did a few PCA days , did my SCCA schools and I was racing. I was lucky to survive ( but that's another story )

[Matt93SE]

'That sounds like fun! Can I drive my maxima on the track?!'

You gotta prollem with Maximas on a race track? :)
http://blehmco.com/pics/track_pics/hallett/sept_04/188%2009.jpg

Watch you mouf!!
That car ran a 1:36 at Hallett on street tires, which is enough to keep up with the ITS/ITR cars at the last race there..

Just sayin'. Everybody's gotta start somewhere, and I'm pretty sure TStiles would vouch for my safe driving on track, even after starting my track life in a lowly Maxima.

[Matt93SE]

Matt , You are right , That last race @ TWS was a trip with the slower RX7's ... I just wish I had not been a nice guy with the EP car , thus ending our race.


I'm still at a loss for what happened there. all I remember is I was leading the train into T10.. When I came out of 12, I looked up and nobody was there. DOH!

Here's the only video I got of that weekend with the slow guys.. The first 6 minutes is fun passing them all, then OOPS. (That's actually my first spin on track this season..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhVqY3QOnfU

[Gary L]

Watch you mouf!!
That car ran a 1:36 at Hallett on street tires, which is enough to keep up with the ITS/ITR cars at the last race there.

Gotta say, you're being a bit selective. :)

The highest finishing ITS car at the last Hallett race finished between two ITB cars... Chris Albin and myself. The only ITR car in the race was even further back.

[PDoane]

I was worried about this when I did my first LeMons race (PBIR New Year's), but they are so Penalty Heavy for any contact or off track excursion anyone who goes "crazy" is quickly off the track. There were lots of drivers out there that couldn't find an apex if their life depended on it, but they weren't doing anything crazy.

I'll let you know what I think about Chump (less Penalty Heavy) after my first event at VIR.

I also agree with TStiles. A lot of W2W racers out there now started in HPDEs or TTs and come to their first W2W race with a lot more "experience" than I did when I started (Jim Russell School) way back when.

[dave parker]

I run with SCCA only. With what I know about safety and how events are run, I won't even run with any 'for profit' organization. Most folks don't feel this way - but I do.

I'd like to see more 'effort' needed to get a comp. license as it is....


I agree with this.

cheers
dave parker

[Matt93SE]

Gotta say, you're being a bit selective. :)

The highest finishing ITS car at the last Hallett race finished between two ITB cars... Chris Albin and myself. The only ITR car in the race was even further back.

Well yeah.. I spent a whole 3 min of research there. I was making a point... Some of the local DE clubs used to use me as the "If you can catch this Maxima in your Viper, then we'll move you up a class."
so how does a daily-driven Volvo 142 compare to your lap times? And isn't a Volvo just a Swedish Maxima, anyway? :P


I was worried about this when I did my first LeMons race (PBIR New Year's), but they are so Penalty Heavy for any contact or off track excursion anyone who goes "crazy" is quickly off the track. There were lots of drivers out there that couldn't find an apex if their life depended on it, but they weren't doing anything crazy.

Yup.. last race I drove in, I was passing one of those non-apex-finders on the outside and got into the marbles and shrapnel off-line.. of course I drifted a bit wide and wound up in the grass. I never had to slow below about 50 and was able to continue with no issues. SCCA would have simply noted it in the book as a 4-off-and-continued. With LeMons, I was black flagged and spent 20 min in the pits being publicly humiliated.
You do something more sinister like spin on-track in front of someone, you spend a minimum of 30 min in the pits. actually hit someone and you spend a lot more time off the track. spin/wreck/whatever three times in a day and you put the car on the trailer.
How many of you guys have run 6 hours on a crowded track without spinning or bumping someone at least once? Just sayin'. :)

[betamotorsports]

I am more concerned with the sanctioning body, its safety standards, how they are enforced, etc. then with a piece of paper that says someone is licensed to race. A crappy SCCA region that overlooks contact and has a good 'ol boy network is scarier then a open track day group that sends aggressive jerks home immediately.

[Drew M]

You gotta prollem with Maximas on a race track? :)

I don't have an issue with any car turned into a race car. It's the drivers who are barely competent enough to operate a motor vehicle on a street who think it's a great idea to go racing. The folks who don't know the difference between a Toyota and a Ferrari. Those are the folks I don't want to race with.

[Russ Myers]

I don't have an issue with any car turned into a race car. It's the drivers who are barely competent enough to operate a motor vehicle on a street who think it's a great idea to go racing. The folks who don't know the difference between a Toyota and a Ferrari. Those are the folks I don't want to race with.

So, when did Ron or Flavio call you up.:D

Russ

[Drew M]

So, when did Ron or Flavio call you up.:D

Russ

:lol: