LRP Results, stories and vids

[CRallo]

Where are they?! :p

As many of you know LRP is my home track, but I missed out this time because I was working with UTR down at NJMP and driving a GT2 Panoz on Thunderbolt.

I want to hear the stories and live vicariously! :eclipsee_steering:

[Greg Amy]

So, what's the repair bill gonna run you, Chris?

LRP was a good weekend. Decent weather, but Group 3 was pretty ugly. One BFA and a lot of carnage. Otherwise, good racing.

GA

[StephenB]

What was group3?

[Jeremy Billiel]

so, what's the repair bill gonna run you, chris?

Lrp was a good weekend. Decent weather, but group 3 was pretty ugly. One bfa and a lot of carnage. Otherwise, good racing.

Ga

bfa?

[Drew M]

I finished the weekend in 17th. Meh....

[Marcus Miller]

assuming the ? after BFA was what? not why, Black Flag all...

[Marianne]

Took me a moment - Big F%^$% accident. Greg had a very good/bad view of it unfortunately.
Marianne

[Greg Amy]

Fortunately, I was not the one that caused the Black Flag All.

My summary from the front:

G3 was a mixed bag of SSM, STL, STU, and GTL. Maybe something else sprinkled in there for flavor. We started the race based on finishing position from the morning's NERRC race*. I started from the pole in the STL Integra with a gaggle of Miatae in tow, many masquerading as STU and STL.** At the start an STU Porsche 944 Turbo came screaming up from 3rd (4th?) and led us all into T1. He had tons of "good handling" down the straights - that thing has some nut - but he parked in the corners, bunching us all up.

As we came back around on lap 2 (I think?) there was a gaggle of Miatae scattered all over the Left Hander area, with one car outside of T2. Don't know what happened. We raced through there at least twice with local yellows (with the leader slowing down through there a ton, causing us to all accordion up), but I'm guessing we were getting too close to the EVs so they went full course yellow. We followed the pace car for about two laps then they decided to call a BFA.

Prior to that I was doing all I could to get by this 944T. They guy would pull 6 car lengths minimum on me on the straight, but I'd be all over his ass through Big Bend, Left Hander, Esses, Uphill, West Bend, Downhill. I was braking in the middle of corners to not tag him, but no matter what I did I could not get in front of him to make a pass stick.

We restarted after the BFA and I tried to give him about a 3-4 second gap at the start with Miatae champing at my ass, but even with that I was all over him by the Left Hander first lap. I tried inside, I tried outside, but no matter what I did he'd pull away whenever the straight came around. However, I noticed that he always went into Big Bend all the way to the right-hand side, I'm guessing to keep me from deep-braking him (though he had such a large lead at the end of the straight it was highly unlikely.)

One lap, though, he not only went way far right but he also braking early, so I took a shot on the outside of Big Bend. I deep-braked into BB and ended up overlapping him about halfway. We went side-by-side like that through the bridge, turn-in, and I was going faster than him coming out of BB, coming more alongside. As we exited the corner I expected he would give me racing room, but unfortunately he tracked out of the corner, forcing me into the grass. At that point I was mostly a passenger; all I wanted to do was gather the car up before I t-boned him when he turned left. Unfortunately, we contact my RF to his LR, which turned him left; as he speared left I tracked right onto the surface to avoid but he went backwards across the track and I again contacted him my LF to his LR (he was backwards by then). I had no drive at that point (I found a broken CV shaft later) so I coasted to a stop at station 5 (the right-hander entering No Name). Yiannis was following me closely all this time (remember, we were all bunched up) and was unable to stop before t-boning the Porsche. The 944T ended up far driver's right across the track for the session.

I had a vantage point at station 5 for the next two incidents. The races were moving along when Miatae traffic began to catch a slow-moving GTL Nissan. Unfortunately the pack caught him entering the right-hander, and for some silly reason he either braked, or slowed down hard, and tried to move out of the way,*** causing several leaving Maitae to back off/brake heavily; one of the lost the tail and spun sideways behind the Nissan, while the remainder of the pack behind him tried to stop, unsuccessfully. That lead spinner got speared. Then, it happened AGAIN the next lap, when I think Lou in the SRX7 had the same problem and spun off driver's right with other Maitae spun off to the left. It was a cluster, and that Nissan driver just toodled along, possibly ignorant to the carnage behind.

I don't know how many cars we lost that group, but I know that between the full-course yellow and subsequent BFA, and the clean-up after the session, every safety vehicle and tow truck was in play at least twice.So, yeah, it wasn't particularly pretty.

But in the end The Whites found my sunglasses that I lost at Station 5, the damage to the Teg is easily repairable, I got to go help Doug clean up the track of flags, fire bottles, and stuff after, and the beer and company at the parties was most excellent, so not all is lost.

GA

* The front of the first race was a really excellent one. Darrel Stein in his ITS RX-7 gave me fits in STL for all but the three last laps. I was pulling him from Big Bend through No Name - I had more power and was doing the Big Bend/Esses complex better - but he was killing me through Uphill, West Band, and Downhill, and making some most excellent pass attempts into T1. He took the lead into T1 about 10 laps in, but once we hit traffic I was able to snag it back under the bridge. Unfortunately his front tires petered out and he went wide in the Downhill with three laps to go, and ended up in the wall. No major damage, he was in the ITS race later that morning. Even better for him, he snagged LRP's first STL lap record of 1:02.3. That was a good race.

** Unrelated note to all SM/SSM: you're legal for STL, no need to run STU. You're also legal for STU but I've got a selfish reason for your running STL: I want STL to make good numbers so it can eventually go National. plus, in STL you're competing against 2L-and-under cars, not 3L-and-under-plus-turbo-plus World Challenge cars...

*** Remember what I told you, KN: always drive your line and maintain your speed!!! If you do that, you're predictable; if you don't it becomes a study in randomized chaos.

[CRallo]

Hey! Is that a joke? So I wreck one racecar and I can't live it down?


So, what's the repair bill gonna run you, Chris?

LRP was a good weekend. Decent weather, but Group 3 was pretty ugly. One BFA and a lot of carnage. Otherwise, good racing.

GA


That's what I was thinking... Perhaps both applied


Took me a moment - Big F%^$% accident. Greg had a very good/bad view of it unfortunately.
Marianne


Thanks for the detailed report! Sorry about your luck. Did you yell "Not my class!"? Wowsers that WAS some mess!

And people wonder why I freak the hell out about basic things like locking up brakes after a spin and staying on line while being passed. :/


Fortunately, I was not the one that caused the Black Flag All.

My summary from the front:

G3 was a mixed bag of SSM, STL, STU, and GTL. Maybe something else sprinkled in there for flavor. We started the race based on finishing position from the morning's NERRC race*. I started from the pole in the STL Integra with a gaggle of Miatae in tow, many masquerading as STU and STL.** At the start an STU Porsche 944 Turbo came screaming up from 3rd (4th?) and led us all into T1. He had tons of "good handling" down the straights - that thing has some nut - but he parked in the corners, bunching us all up.

As we came back around on lap 2 (I think?) there was a gaggle of Miatae scattered all over the Left Hander area, with one car outside of T2. Don't know what happened. We raced through there at least twice with local yellows (with the leader slowing down through there a ton, causing us to all accordion up), but I'm guessing we were getting too close to the EVs so they went full course yellow. We followed the pace car for about two laps then they decided to call a BFA.

Prior to that I was doing all I could to get by this 944T. They guy would pull 6 car lengths minimum on me on the straight, but I'd be all over his ass through Big Bend, Left Hander, Esses, Uphill, West Bend, Downhill. I was braking in the middle of corners to not tag him, but no matter what I did I could not get in front of him to make a pass stick.

We restarted after the BFA and I tried to give him about a 3-4 second gap at the start with Miatae champing at my ass, but even with that I was all over him by the Left Hander first lap. I tried inside, I tried outside, but no matter what I did he'd pull away whenever the straight came around. However, I noticed that he always went into Big Bend all the way to the right-hand side, I'm guessing to keep me from deep-braking him (though he had such a large lead at the end of the straight it was highly unlikely.)

One lap, though, he not only went way far right but he also braking early, so I took a shot on the outside of Big Bend. I deep-braked into BB and ended up overlapping him about halfway. We went side-by-side like that through the bridge, turn-in, and I was going faster than him coming out of BB, coming more alongside. As we exited the corner I expected he would give me racing room, but unfortunately he tracked out of the corner, forcing me into the grass. At that point I was mostly a passenger; all I wanted to do was gather the car up before I t-boned him when he turned left. Unfortunately, we contact my RF to his LR, which turned him left; as he speared left I tracked right onto the surface to avoid but he went backwards across the track and I again contacted him my LF to his LR (he was backwards by then). I had no drive at that point (I found a broken CV shaft later) so I coasted to a stop at station 5 (the right-hander entering No Name). Yiannis was following me closely all this time (remember, we were all bunched up) and was unable to stop before t-boning the Porsche. The 944T ended up far driver's right across the track for the session.

I had a vantage point at station 5 for the next two incidents. The races were moving along when Miatae traffic began to catch a slow-moving GTL Nissan. Unfortunately the pack caught him entering the right-hander, and for some silly reason he either braked, or slowed down hard, and tried to move out of the way,*** causing several leaving Maitae to back off/brake heavily; one of the lost the tail and spun sideways behind the Nissan, while the remainder of the pack behind him tried to stop, unsuccessfully. That lead spinner got speared. Then, it happened AGAIN the next lap, when I think Lou in the SRX7 had the same problem and spun off driver's right with other Maitae spun off to the left. It was a cluster, and that Nissan driver just toodled along, possibly ignorant to the carnage behind.

I don't know how many cars we lost that group, but I know that between the full-course yellow and subsequent BFA, and the clean-up after the session, every safety vehicle and tow truck was in play at least twice.So, yeah, it wasn't particularly pretty.

But in the end The Whites found my sunglasses that I lost at Station 5, the damage to the Teg is easily repairable, I got to go help Doug clean up the track of flags, fire bottles, and stuff after, and the beer and company at the parties was most excellent, so not all is lost.

GA

* The front of the first race was a really excellent one. Darrel Stein in his ITS RX-7 gave me fits in STL for all but the three last laps. I was pulling him from Big Bend through No Name - I had more power and was doing the Big Bend/Esses complex better - but he was killing me through Uphill, West Band, and Downhill, and making some most excellent pass attempts into T1. He took the lead into T1 about 10 laps in, but once we hit traffic I was able to snag it back under the bridge. Unfortunately his front tires petered out and he went wide in the Downhill with three laps to go, and ended up in the wall. No major damage, he was in the ITS race later that morning. Even better for him, he snagged LRP's first STL lap record of 1:02.3. That was a good race.

** Unrelated note to all SM/SSM: you're legal for STL, no need to run STU. You're also legal for STU but I've got a selfish reason for your running STL: I want STL to make good numbers so it can eventually go National. plus, in STL you're competing against 2L-and-under cars, not 3L-and-under-plus-turbo-plus World Challenge cars...

*** Remember what I told you, KN: always drive your line and maintain your speed!!! If you do that, you're predictable; if you don't it becomes a study in randomized chaos.

[Greg Amy]

Yes, Chris, it was a joke, with a little bit of irony thrown in for fun.

Reminds me of a joke, but far too un-family-friendly to repeat here...

[JLawton]

ITA Race?

[gran racing]

But in the end The Whites found my sunglasses that I lost at Station 5,

LMAO!! You had lost yet another pair?

Sorry to hear about the car damage. :( At least you have a beautiful garage and lift to use for repairs!!!

[StephF]

They didn't have one out of respect for your absence............

[JLawton]

Off Topic:



Anyone need a garage mate for the NHMS School Weekend?


Back to our regularly scheduled program..............

[Andy Bettencourt]

Excellent report. Thinking based on ITS times, a real solid STL run at LRP would be a 1:00.0.

Too bad on all the damage. Stinks.

[Greg Amy]

This link just got sent to me; this was Yiannis' in-car video from right behind the incident. Should make for some interesting conversation... :happy204:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxGenu91UUA&NR=1

Some thoughts:

- Not as much overlap at the end as I initially perceived. We were overlapped all around BB but as we exited he began pulling away. A second or two more and we would have cleared.

- At that point I still expected 0.95 car widths of working room at the exit. But as he tracked out I was still not clear and we had the initial contact, with me ending up out in the dirt.

- Fearing a t-bone, I tried to get the car back under control before the left-hander. Once the car was straightened out I braked while still halfway in the grass.

- The 944 continued to track along the far left edge of the asphalt -- way off the racing line - leaving no room for me to return onto the track. In fact, it appeared he even moved farther left before entering the left-hander; my perception is that it was to block my re-entry onto the track. It worked. At that point, secondary contact was inevitable.

- Once he braked and moved left - and I'm still trying to regain control of the car - the secondary contact spun him around. I chose right as it was my only option, but not right far enough...and then Yiannis got him.

As I said to the chief steward when we discussed it after the race, "I accept that it's the passing guy's responsibility to make a safe pass. But on the other hand, I believe it's reasonable to expect racing room and to not be driven off the track."* In the end, I agree with Yiannis' comment on that video: "This is a move [born] out of frustration...We were all the worst for it."

GA

* The morning race was a perfect example. Darrel Stein and I had some great fender-to-quarter racing; he had the momentum through the downhill and I had the power advantage on the straights, so as he again and again attempted a pass into T1 I gave him the inside 0.95 width going in and he gave me the outside 0.95 width coming out. We never touched, lap after lap.

[Greg Amy]

Thinking based on ITS times, a real solid STL run at LRP would be a 1:00.0.
I think a strong STL car with an immortal driver is a sub-minute ride. Think your car with 40 more ponies and a rear wing to keep it planted...

[Drew M]

We went side-by-side like that through the bridge, turn-in, and I was going faster than him coming out of BB, coming more alongside. As we exited the corner I expected he would give me racing room, but unfortunately he tracked out of the corner, forcing me into the grass. At that point I was mostly a passenger; all I wanted to do was gather the car up before I t-boned him when he turned left. Unfortunately, we contact my RF to his LR, which turned him left; as he speared left I tracked right onto the surface to avoid but he went backwards across the track and I again contacted him my LF to his LR (he was backwards by then).

Did you lift when you went off? From up on the hill, it looked like you kept your foot to the floor.

[Greg Amy]

Certainly probable. Had I lifted and/or braked in the grass I would have spun.

[Drew M]

Certainly probable. Had I lifted and/or braked in the grass I would have spun.

This is possible too. It was just an observation, not a criticism.

I noticed you answered the question in the post with the video. You must have been typing that one as I was reading your last one.

[Drew M]

And people wonder why I freak the hell out about basic things like locking up brakes after a spin and staying on line while being passed. :/

Speaking of, the BMW that spun in Turn 1 at the start nearly took me out when the driver let off the brake just before stopping. I was lucky the BMW to my left gave me 1/2 a car width or else I would have taken him out. No harm, no foul but that was a close one!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not much overlap at all really. To be honest, I think it was your job to lift there to avoid his rear bumper...but this defines the grey area of these things.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think a strong STL car with an immortal driver is a sub-minute ride. Think your car with 40 more ponies and a rear wing to keep it planted...

Add 40hp and a wing to my car and it's a done deal. I think STL should be a good bit quicker than ITS.

[Greg Amy]

Not much overlap at all really. To be honest, I think it was your job to lift there to avoid his rear bumper...but this defines the grey area of these things.
Had I known I would not get that working space on the exit, you know of course know I would have bailed. If the roles were reversed, knowing a car was back there somewhere I certainly would not have tracked out. Would you have...?

So my core mistake was assuming I'd be given racing room on exit. I suggest the root question is "was that a reasonable assumption"? Everything after that was pre-ordained.

There's your rhetorical question for debate.

GA

On edit: Offered for entertainment purposes, Matt says I was being retarded, that I should have known better. So we know his position on the matter... ;) I know my expectations will be different next time I race with the 944. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Had I known I would not get that working space on the exit, you know of course know I would have bailed. If the roles were reversed, knowing a car was back there somewhere I certainly would not have tracked out. Would you have...?

So my core mistake was assuming I'd be given racing room on exit. I suggest the root question is "was that a reasonable assumption"? Everything after that was pre-ordained.

There's your rhetorical question for debate.

GA

On edit: Offered for entertainment purposes, Matt says I was being retarded, that I should have known better. So we know his position on the matter... ;) I know my expectations will be different next time I race with the 944. - GA

It's such a tough situation. If that was the second lap, I would say you blew it. But given the frustration I can see what happened. There was just such little overlap you seemed to have gotten just as much rear bumper as side bumper. I am not sure he even knew you were there because you never got up to his window and the angle of mirror was bad to see you (although he should have).

To reference one of your earlier posts, I would have given you the 5% you had earned...and that would have (hopefully) given you the space you needed...

But half of the people think racing room should be given, half think you have to be 'more' in position to claim that space or you need to yield. So grey. Kinda wish it was more defined in the GCR.

[gran racing]

I agree, somewhat in the grey area. When should a car such as the 944 yield that much of track out and thus slow down while racing? If the driver thought you had a your nose on the outside, absolutely. At the same time if the space hasn't been defined, should a person just give the pass away? I don't think you had enough in there, which is obviously much easier for me to say watching a video.


In fact, it appeared he even moved farther left before entering the left-hander; my perception is that it was to block my re-entry onto the track.

Who knows. Maybe he was distracted by the initial contact?

Were you both in STL? If not and I were in the 944, I'd hope that I would have just let you go and see how things progressed from there.

[benspeed]

That is a tough one. Two points I see from the video - shoulda lifted and tucked in - not far enough up on his quarter (and you really gave a medium tap anyway) and no room given to you for retaking the track - he had to know you were there after the tap and should have moved over to line up the next corner anyway...easily could have given room for you to retake the surface. But you carried speed - still on the gas and kinda hit 'em again. No brake lights until too late.

What did the stewards say? Any penalties?

For me to give racing room on the track out of the corner you have to be fully alongside my quarter, nose up to doorhandle and you get the lane. If you're a nose on my bumper or behind my rear wheel I'm tracking out. But I'll always give you the lane if you're in a different class and we're not racing for position.

If I'm the overtaking car I go by the same - gotta be up to your door and I want the lane, otherwise I'm backing out and tucking up on the bumper.

This is when your ears are telling you where the overtaking car is, hard to manage the corner AND watch the mirrors. If I hear you at my window, you get the lane.

Lots of times I leave the lane open to avoid getting wrecked by the overtaking car and most of the time I still keep the position anyway. If the overtaking car gets by me I expect the same generosity in return and that makes for clean and exciting racing.

Looks like no major damage to any cars and most importantly, no injuries. Did Yannis catch up to the front by the end?

[Ron Earp]

Armchairing it from here I think you should have lifted and stayed on his bumper because there wasn't enough overlap for the beginnings of a pass. He was out of class, right? And had you like six car lengths on the straight? Looks like to me that even if you'd made the risky pass stick for short time he'd rapidly be contesting you for it within half a lap. Glad nobody was injured and everyone is ok. Were there problems in the paddock after the race regarding discussions or paper?

[ner88]

What is major damage? Yiannis's car is on it's way to the body shop, probably $2000. worth of damage. Hood, bumper, headlight and possible fender. :shrug:
He raced all weekend with fields of Miatas and in the end.....:D
Good news, with a little banging and duck tape, he won the SM race!:smilie_pokal:

[Greg Amy]

For me to give racing room on the track...
Must...resist...not...appropriate...time or place... ;)


...you have to be fully alongside my quarter, nose up to door handle and you get the lane.You have much better mirrors/cameras, and/or divine intervention than I do, Ben, to be able to perceive where someone is along your car other than "in the mirrors clearly behind me" or "not clearly behind me". If someone is any position where it's even remotely possible there's an overlap of even one micro-inch, they'll get the room. And I assume respect in kind, unless otherwise demonstrated. And that was clearly illustrated by the race earlier in the day.

If we're actually arguing the difference between a bumper end, mid-quarter, door handle, and middle of the door, and whether I think you can hear me or not (I blew 87dB this weekend; how good is your hearing inside that helmet, Ben?) I think we're getting a bit above our pay grade.

This is Club Racing. We're not getting paid. And I won't sit in your pee.


If you're a nose on my bumper or behind my rear wheel I'm tracking out.Yeah, I'm well aware of that.


Armchairing it from here I think you should have lifted and stayed on his bumper because there wasn't enough overlap for the beginnings of a pass.
No disagreement. But we now have the value of hindsight knowledge that the space was going to get filled. I assumed incorrectly.

But, Ron, I ask again (rhetorically): if you were in his position, would you have tracked out? Personally, I think our individual answer to that question says a lot about us as club racers.


He was out of class, right? And had you like six car lengths on the straight?Yes. But we were running two-plus seconds a lap slower than I was earlier in the day, my best lap earlier in the day was significantly faster than his best laps (and I'd passed him while qualifying on the pole the day before), and I had new tires to replace the high-cycle last year's I'd run on then. I was expecting to run ~3 seconds faster per lap, more than enough to gap him sufficiently during the remainder of that lap, more than enough to be ahead going down the straight.

But that's neither here nor there. It's quite apparent that in hindsight my choice to retain that overlap was a poor one (duh).


Were there problems in the paddock after the race regarding discussions or paper?Though several witnesses were strongly encouraging me to toss paper, instead we had a non-official friendly chat with the Chief Steward. Our respective positions were as stated above: I believed that I should have been given space on track-out, he believed that I had no right to that space since he was in front he could drive the car anywhere he wanted to. The Chief Steward took no official position on the matter (none was requested), but made it clear that we have to work together on mutual respect with a lot of give-and-take. You can infer from that what you wish. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Given that video, I think you NOT protesting was a good idea.

Porsche was STU, Greg STL. I know there is some pride in being first overall but drivers need to know what is going on around them - and that isn't just on track. The info had to be available to know Greg was capable of posting much quicker lap times. They both would have been faster if the Porsche just let him go into Big Bend first, once - then he would have dissappeared as he would have had a full lap of turns to get away so the 944 wouldn't have been able to get him the next straight.

(On edit - our (collective 'our') opinions on 'racing' also differ. Some will race anyone near them - because that is 'why they came'. Some only care about cars in class and will let 'pesky' cars by so as not to risk this sort of thing. It may even depend on how many drivers are in class that day, current point standings, etc...communincating on the front end is best. Example: I like to get to grid first so I can have a few clean qualifying laps, when I don't and I am maybe 5th or so, I have walked up to the first 4 and let them know that I am coming through so look for me when the track goes green and not to swerve into me. One time as a result of a DNF in a qualifying race, I started last. I made sure that I walked up and down the grid and made eye contact with everyone I was about to get by in the first few laps so they knew there was a faster car coming much sooner than the traditional 'lapping' traffic would.)

[BruceG]

Must...resist...not...appropriate...time or place... ;)

You have much better mirrors/cameras, and/or divine intervention than I do, Ben, to be able to perceive where someone is along your car other than "in the mirrors clearly behind me" or "not clearly behind me". If someone is any position where it's even remotely possible there's an overlap of even one micro-inch, they'll get the room. And I assume respect in kind, unless otherwise demonstrated. And that was clearly illustrated by the race earlier in the day.

If we're actually arguing the difference between a bumper end, mid-quarter, door handle, and middle of the door, and whether I think you can hear me or not (I blew 87dB this weekend; how good is your hearing inside that helmet, Ben?) I think we're getting a bit above our pay grade.

This is Club Racing. We're not getting paid. And I won't sit in your pee.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that.


No disagreement. But we now have the value of hindsight knowledge that the space was going to get filled. I assumed incorrectly.

But, Ron, I ask again (rhetorically): if you were in his position, would you have tracked out? Personally, I think our individual answer to that question says a lot about us as club racers.

Yes. But we were running two-plus seconds a lap slower than I was earlier in the day, my best lap earlier in the day was significantly faster than his best laps (and I'd passed him while qualifying on the pole the day before), and I had new tires to replace the high-cycle last year's I'd run on then. I was expecting to run ~3 seconds faster per lap, more than enough to gap him sufficiently during the remainder of that lap, more than enough to be ahead going down the straight.

But that's neither here nor there. It's quite apparent that in hindsight my choice to retain that overlap was a poor one (duh).

Though several witnesses were strongly encouraging me to toss paper, instead we had a non-official friendly chat with the Chief Steward. Our respective positions were as stated above: I believed that I should have been given space on track-out, he believed that I had no right to that space since he was in front he could drive the car anywhere he wanted to. The Chief Steward took no official position on the matter (none was requested), but made it clear that we have to work together on mutual respect with a lot of give-and-take. You can infer from that what you wish. - GA

We picked up 3 of the 5 cars with the flatbed. Only saw 1 driver on a stretcher from medical with a surgical collar being put on before the ambulance. 2 of the spec pinatas had front or rear wheel damage as well as bodywork issues. took a white jelly bean back to the Flatout trailer.

Also, 3 cheers to Dick P. in Tech for a great job. I always feel good(and safe) when I see him there!!

[BruceG]

We picked up 3 of the 5 cars with the flatbed. Only saw 1 driver on a stretcher from medical with a surgical collar being put on before the ambulance. 2 of the spec pinatas had front or rear wheel damage as well as bodywork issues. took a white jelly bean back to the Flatout trailer.

Also, 3 cheers to Dick P. in Tech for a great job. I always feel good(and safe) when I see him there!!

PS. It's so easy for those of us in the stands(or flatbed) to second quess drivers after an incident. I'd race beside Greg any day and know that he would leave room whereever possible. After talking to several drivers who crashed....sounds like lots of braking going on where it wasn't needed.

[Ron Earp]

One time as a result of a DNF in a qualifying race, I started last. I made sure that I walked up and down the grid and made eye contact with everyone I was about to get by in the first few laps so they knew there was a faster car coming much sooner than the traditional 'lapping' traffic would.)

Is that "Giving them The Eye"?

[yannisalex2000]

Its going to cost Antony $3000 to repair the damage to the car because Greg Amy ASSUMED that he would be given "racing room".A driver with Greg's experience should know that racing room is earned not given especially when fighting for first overall.A few words of apology like "Sorry guys my bad" should be offered instead of all this BS. Regards John A.

[benspeed]

Greg - I'll keep what I do on track to another thread. Not looking to pee on anybody.

Bumming weekend and $3K counts as major damage - sucks for Yiannis.

[yannisalex2000]

3k is a very conservative estimate plus a painful weekend plus a trip to the doctor for a cervical sprain whatever that is.By the way Antony is my brother in law.

[Kai Noeske]

3k is a very conservative estimate plus a painful weekend plus a trip to the doctor for a cervical sprain whatever that is.By the way Antony is my brother in law.

Whiplash injury, apparently. Ouch. You will have fun with that for a while. Had one when I was rear-ended off track. Get better mate.

[anthony1k]

First off I would like to express my sincere appreciation to corner workers for their quick flag work and to my fellow competitors for not hitting me as I was stopped facing the infield for a while. It could have been much worse. I’m sorry for the damage to Yannis’ nice Miata. Also thanks to all of those who PM’d me with support comments after the video was posted.

As far as the incident, the video tells the story. I don’t have anything to add except that I’d like to make a couple of points.

Point 1: GA-you were not as much faster as you think. I was controlling the pace and there was more speed in store as I was still learning how to drive the car with the bigger turbocharger (all legal :D) and its massive turbo lag.

Point 2: GA-going on the offensive with snotty comments towards me when you are in fact at fault shows immaturity and not a lot of class IMO. I can only imagine what you’ll be throwing my way if the roles were reversed.

That’s it for now. Signing off.

[Matt93SE]

More armchair opinion here.. I know none of you personally so I have no emotional involvement here- just calling it like I see it.

1. GA should have let him have the corner.
2. Porsche should have let GA have a little room...
3. ...especially after the bump. 944 driver knew there was someone else to his left at this point and should have given room to get back on the track.
4. Yes, this is a "grey area." Did GA have enough position by the rule book to say the Porsche was at fault? No.
5. In MY OPINION, should the Porsche have given GA room? Yes.

TECHNICALLY the Porsche driver was right, but morally I say he should have given room. I would have (and do) if I was in that spot, even if it was for position in-class. I can't afford to wreck the car just to prove I was right and had a wider bumper than the guy behind me.

If a guy can come around me and put even a bumper on my outside of a sweeper, then he's obviously faster and I'm obviously holding him up elsewhere. I'd let the guy by and then give chase to see what I can learn from the guy that's faster in the turns. I can always out-drag him to the next corner if I'm as fast as I think I am. ;)

"learning curve" with a bigger turbo or not, the Porsche was holding up in the corners and needed to get out of the way. If it were me, I'd have given the Porsche a kick in the butt coming out of each corner just to let him know I'm back there and annoy him into making a mistake.
I'd also run right up on his rear in braking just so his mirrors are full. I get a ton of passes by staring a guy down in the mirror and watching him go off in the next corner..

If I were the Steward, I'd have zapped both drivers for attempting a low-percentage pass, not giving racing room (on both sides), and not being aware of your surroundings enough to know you're being passed. 6.11.1.C and D.

But that's just me. :)

[Greg Amy]

Anthony, I'm going to avoid getting into a public pissing match with you. But that said, you were slow(er) given the equipment you have. You weren't "controlling the pace", you were holding up the field.

And I suggest that the front of a 30+ car field in a race is not the most optimal place to 'learn how to drive the car.'

Does that make anything I did acceptable? Nope. But simply put, regardless of what mistake(s) I may have made leading up to that incident, I firmly believe you drove me off the track outside of Turn 2, and then intentionally worked to keep me off the racing surface. And you admitted as much to the Chief Steward. At that point, the results were inevitable.

And you ask what would have happened if the roles were reversed...? The simple answer is that the incident would have never happened in the first place.

In the end, my core mistake was trusting you enough to go door-to-door with you. But that won't happen again: you've earned a spot on my very short list of people with whom I'm not willing to race closely.

GA


First off I would like to express my sincere appreciation to corner workers for their quick flag work and to my fellow competitors for not hitting me as I was stopped facing the infield for a while. It could have been much worse. I’m sorry for the damage to Yannis’ nice Miata. Also thanks to all of those who PM’d me with support comments after the video was posted.

As far as the incident, the video tells the story. I don’t have anything to add except that I’d like to make a couple of points.

Point 1: GA-you were not as much faster as you think. I was controlling the pace and there was more speed in store as I was still learning how to drive the car with the bigger turbocharger (all legal :D) and its massive turbo lag.

Point 2: GA-going on the offensive with snotty comments towards me when you are in fact at fault shows immaturity and not a lot of class IMO. I can only imagine what you’ll be throwing my way if the roles were reversed.

That’s it for now. Signing off.

[lateapex911]

I watched this unfold from the tower. I could see it coming and said afterwards that it was just a matter of time....

I could see clearly that The Acura was being held up and the lap times confirmed it. I saw two cars in the wrong order when it came to lap times, and feared that cooler heads would not prevail.

This was avoidable, and sorry to say, both drivers should hang their heads.

Mr Porsche, this might not sit well, but when you've been outqualified by two seconds, and you have a guy 1 foot off your rear bumper, it's time to check your ego. Maybe dropping behind a faster car and learning how to drive your car (You admitted you were in a learning mode) would have been prudent??
I understand you said you couldn't leave room at track out because your car was drifting. Ummm...here's a hint about that: Slow down.

Really.
It's not that hard.
Leave racing room when in doubt.

You clearly KNEW you had a car alongside, as you gave a reason for not granting racing room. And you decided to race him hard ....even though he wasn't in your class?? Really?? Hate me all you want but that's just not a smart way to race ...
Now, if you were in a Pro race like Grand Am Cup in the same class, and you're racing for a podium .....well, yea sure, go for it.
But in club Racing against a non class car??? Dumb. Or egotistical. Or both. But just plain wrong.

It was obvious that the Acura had very significant overlap for most of both T1 and T2.... I sure would have left room even IN class in club racing, and CERTAINLY when it's not for position.. Matts right, technically you might have been cool to chop his nose, but man, every ounce of common sense and fair play says the opposite.

The Acura for his part, ALSO should have known when to call the ball and not trust the Porsche, who he's not familiar with. I lost sight of the overlap right at the end due to a rig blocking my view, but the vid shows the overlap evaporated to a nose in the quarter deal ...I had assumed it had remained, and they returned to my view with the Acura in the dirt.

I place the onus on the Porsche, but I would smack GA up the back of the head for being unwise and pressing a case with a guy he doesn't know while racing out of class.

Now, I don't drive a FWD car, so I can't know for sure on the driving of the Acura, which appeared to remain "in the game" after the first track out at 2 contact and the contact at the entrance to the Left hander. To my eyes, that appeared overly aggressive. I'm told that FWD drive cars need to throttle out of spins, so maybe that's a reason. Dunno. But it sure looked like the Porsche took a very non standard line, right along the left edge, leaving no room for a car he knew he just punted, AND way off the traditional racing line....and I can't imagine why.

Again, I bet two wills who wouldn't budge met, and it ended in tears.

I'm sorry, but both of you are chumps for racing so hard out of class.

And as for the damage complaints, oh well, that's what happens when you press bad positions.

(The Miata was an innocent bystander, and that sucks for him.)

[LRP]

Greg, you come across as a real bully on this thread, for lack of a better description. This easily could have gone in the S*** happens, that's racing category, but you came on here with an attitude not fitting with the spirit of club racing. "...earned a spot on my short list...," sounds pretty pompous, as if you are the sole authority on this situation. Instead maybe everyone else should watch out for you spinning them around upon achieving a 2 foot overlap. You have your version of the events, and are sticking to it, only problem is the video shows different.

How could the 944 be "holding up the field" when the the 3rd place car (with the in-car) was 4 or 5 car lengths behind you in both the downhill and big bend, and the 4th place car even further back in his mirror?

And I find it extremely hard to believe that in the mere seconds between the first contact and the second, that the 944 driver made a conscious decision to block you off the course. This is a ridiculous assertion if you ask me. Far more probable is the chance that you didn't lift and even in the dirt were still determined to pass.

It seems you went out on a limb with your first story, tried to modify it after the video came out, admitting that there was not nearly as much overlap, and now you have no choice but to stick to your guns. But really you should step up and admit this was classic red mist. This was the second lap from the restart, you could have been a bit more patient, tucked-in, and stuck a more intelligent pass. It doesn't matter how entitled you feel, why should the lead be handed over just because you want it? There was a reason he was in front of you to begin with, right? If you were that much faster you would have been ahead before the black flag, period.

[lateapex911]

There was a reason he was in front of you to begin with, right? If you were that much faster you would have been ahead before the black flag, period.

Hmmm. 1 post....no name.
OK, do you race?

[Matt93SE]

Hmmm. 1 post....no name.
OK, do you race?

Doesn't matter. there's going to be 1,000,000 different opinions if there's 1,000,000 view on the subject whether they have 1 post or 1000.

damn gray areas.

In Greg's defense, there are guys that I give a WIIIIIDE berth to- even while they're motioning me to bump-draft- and there are guys that I will run nose-to-tail because I know they're not going to put me in the dirt (or worse.)
There are drivers you trust and drivers you don't. I'd have to race you to tell which you are, but I give everyone the benefit of the doubt the first time I race them.

[Greg Amy]

Greg, you come across as a real bully on this thread...
So what? You came in here as a troll. I'd rather be a bully than an anonymous coward.

I did get a nice chuckle at "'...earned a spot on my short list...,' sounds pretty pompous, as if you are the sole authority on this situation." Clue: I am the sole authority on who I choose to race closely with.


I'm sorry, but both of you are chumps for racing so hard out of class.
I concur, though you are well aware my motivations had zero to do with "racing" him. I'd have been just tickled pink if he'd been able to run away and hide.

GA

P.S., I concede to the "passing driver's responsibility" rule, always have. But I'm still looking for that "door handle rule", where it's OK for me to move out - or turn in - on someone alongside as long as there's less than 1/2-car overlap. If you find that, let me know.

[JLawton]

Greg, you come across as a real bully on this thread, for lack of a better description. This easily could have gone in the S*** happens, that's racing category, but you came on here with an attitude not fitting with the spirit of club racing. "...earned a spot on my short list...," sounds pretty pompous, as if you are the sole authority on this situation. Instead maybe everyone else should watch out for you spinning them around upon achieving a 2 foot overlap. You have your version of the events, and are sticking to it, only problem is the video shows different.

How could the 944 be "holding up the field" when the the 3rd place car (with the in-car) was 4 or 5 car lengths behind you in both the downhill and big bend, and the 4th place car even further back in his mirror?

And I find it extremely hard to believe that in the mere seconds between the first contact and the second, that the 944 driver made a conscious decision to block you off the course. This is a ridiculous assertion if you ask me. Far more probable is the chance that you didn't lift and even in the dirt were still determined to pass.

It seems you went out on a limb with your first story, tried to modify it after the video came out, admitting that there was not nearly as much overlap, and now you have no choice but to stick to your guns. But really you should step up and admit this was classic red mist. This was the second lap from the restart, you could have been a bit more patient, tucked-in, and stuck a more intelligent pass. It doesn't matter how entitled you feel, why should the lead be handed over just because you want it? There was a reason he was in front of you to begin with, right? If you were that much faster you would have been ahead before the black flag, period.

Grow some balls and don't be anonymous.

I think Jake sumed it up nicely. Yup, Greg pushed the matter and shouldn't have and owns up to that. Anthony, you need to take some responsibility in this as well. It takes two to tango. Were you technically in the right? Yes. But would you rather be right and have your car banged up or give way and both of you finish the race? Greg was clearly faster AND in another class. Race craft and etiquette says to let him go......... It is one of those things that come with experience. "We" need to make this a learning experience.

I have raced guys that in the same situation would have been rubbing the paint off the rear bumper....... until something happened..... one way or another........

[benspeed]

Deleted

[Andy Bettencourt]

"We" need to make this a learning experience.

I have raced guys that in the same situation would have been rubbing the paint off the rear bumper....... until something happened..... one way or another........

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/68726_1519907129898_1601138632_1268658_1724570_n.j pg

[preparedcivic]

I resisted replying yesterday, but anyway……a big +1 to what Jake said.

The Acura was trying to make a low-percentage move stick, and the Porsche, by his own admission, was learning the car AND ended up with a very odd line into the left-hander. So it was either a deliberate drive the passing car off the track move, or not having the car 100% under him, either not good at all. In hindsight, with that kind of track-out from the Porsche tGA in the Acura probably could have checked up a little exiting BB and get the better line track right through the left hander, then been clearly ahead after the right hander and cleared the Porsche getting onto No-Name, and walked through the uphill, West Bend and the Downhill.

That’s just this video quarterback’s viewpoint, that comes from driving a 24 year old car with brittle Tupperware fenders and nose parts. I’ve stuck in my front quarter to rear quarter plenty of times and backed out, because it is clear the slow guy in what should be the faster car is going to protect his position to the point of contact.

It’s just the wrong way to drive in club racing. But many do it that way.

[gran racing]

Far more probable is the chance that you didn't lift and even in the dirt were still determined to pass.

I would not have lifted much if at all in that situation and been determined not to go shooting across the track into another car or the inside wall. I don't think this was about losing a second or two on track.

Too bad Anthony's car was involved and the aspect where an innocent party can become involved in an incident like this sucks.


I give everyone the benefit of the doubt the first time I race them.

Not me. It might just take a corner or two but...

[Andy Bettencourt]

So as to try and make this a learning experience for all, we need to understand that nobody was right. I have been going over this in my head and it's interesting to me what the conclusions were.

I want to use me as an example. This is Tim K's video from the NARRC Runoffs last year. Setting it up for you...I qualified P2 in the wet. Surrounding me are all Lime Rock ITA winners. Shane H on pole, Lawton in P3 and Timmy in P4. I knew I needed to get to T1 first or it's going to be hell.

Go to the 4:00 mark to see the start. http://www.vimeo.com/15525843

I get a great start but run conservatively into Big Bend, Timmy also gets a great start and runs right around me into that turn. I have raced closely with all three of them. Here is what I know: Jeff will give me room, Shane won't and Tim MIGHT.

I felt like I had cleared him and it worked out. BUT----if I hadn't, I would have put the blame on myself. If he was there, I should have either known it, or been more conservative. I am not DEMANDING that he give me room, it wasn't a dive-bomb, he earned it. Now I had cleared him, or he lifted, or maybe both, but it was close. Ben had a link here http://video.yahoo.com/watch/8364523/22375035 from the outside but it doesn't work for me anymore. What I can tell you is that the group gasped as the move happened, it was that close.

Now having said that, when I look from outside, I think Greg was in the wrong. There was almost zero overlap at the point of contact...but he WAS there.

So the net/net for me is that if you are the car in front, you need to understand that cars WILL be where you don't want them. In this case, Greg had earned that spot and the Anthony could have tightened up to give room. In contrast, I think it could just as easily be said that Greg didn't 'earn nearly enough' to stand firm in his position and he should have breathed the throttle.

I think that is why you saw the stewards take zero action. Neither driver budged and everyone was the worse for it...but there was nobody more wrong than the other. Anthony now knows what he knows and Greg now knows what he knows...and the next time this surfaces, they will need to figure out what to do...differently.

So to sum it up simply, I would have blamed myself as a driver - in EITHER car, because a risk was taken by both and it didn't pan out. One other thing to think about is how rare it is to have a car overtaking on the OUTSIDE as opposed to sticking a nose UNDER someone at an apex.

[dj10]

How much of the race was left when that incident occured?

[Jeremy Billiel]

How much of the race was left when that incident occured?

Lap 8 which I think was about half way.

[benspeed]

Here's that link of the 2010 ITA NARRC Runoffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZMOJmJ8QM

My last comment on this incident is that attitude and behavior off the track matters a lot also...

[JeffYoung]

I think you are right. Two "my bads" and apologies and this whole thing would have been another racing incident (although again, it really stinks that the real loser here was the Miata following in third).

When two hits to a rear bumper in a club race not even 1/2 through between two cars not even in the same class result in serious damage to a third AND an injury, yeah, I think everyone needs to take a hard look at what went on.


My last comment on this incident is that attitude and behavior off the track matters a lot also...

[CRallo]

FWIW, the Miata driver is the victim here and insert all armchair driver/hindsight disclaimers here, but he was two feet on the brake and trying to turn at the same time... someone should explain that to him and also point out that its okay to drive off the track to avoid, especially where there is all that room.


Now can we please talk about the rest of the weekend!?

[lawtonglenn]

.

here is a quick 2 minute segment of Saturday morning's ITR/S/B race showing
a successful (but very very very close) "Drive Off" to avoid Tyler Monroe's
off course/on course/off course excursion.

I suppose I was betting (correctly) that the grass was dry enough that I wouldn't
go right into the tire wall.

It's too bad Yannis (and Tim Mullen for that matter) weren't able to do this

http://vimeo.com/25408884

.

[lateapex911]

Now having said that, when I look from outside, I think Greg was in the wrong. There was almost zero overlap at the point of contact...but he WAS there.

So the net/net for me is that if you are the car in front, you need to understand that cars WILL be where you don't want them. In this case, Greg had earned that spot and the Anthony could have tightened up to give room.



1- See #3.
2- Greg had serious overlap until Anthony decided to get on the throttle and go for track out. It's not JUST about what the condition and positions were at track out, it's about how they got there. If Anthony had respected the position, he would have breathed the throttle and left racing room at track out....and none of this would have happened..(That's KEY)
3- Andy, your comments are all valid, EXCEPT, this incident was between a guy essentially doing a track day, and a guy with little or no competition, who weren't even in the same freaking class!!!!
It should never have happened.

I saw a comment up the line, "It was for the overall win". So what!?!?! Do they give awards for the overall win?? Uhh, no, they do not. So it's just mental masturbation and ego posturing. Sorry, but....that's really the bottom line in that case. I race a car "up class" (IT7 cars should be slower than ITA cars) and i've gotten the overall, and sure, it's a thrill. But I would NEVER race an ITA guy as hard as i would an IT7 guy for the win. It's not respectful. Some front bumper to rear to let 'em know they're in the way, sure, but forcing a guy off the track? No way.

To my eye, both guys deserve a slap down, but the 944 drove overly aggressively for his capability and speed potential, and failed to give racing room, by assuming that the overlapped car would vanish. It was a decision on his part, and I lay the bulk of the blame for what transpired with that decision.

[BruceG]

.

here is a quick 2 minute segment of Saturday morning's ITR/S/B race showing
a successful (but very very very close) "Drive Off" to avoid Tyler Monroe's
off course/on course/off course excursion.

I suppose I was betting (correctly) that the grass was dry enough that I wouldn't
go right into the tire wall.

It's too bad Yannis (and Tim Mullen for that matter) weren't able to do this

http://vimeo.com/25408884

.

Nicely done, Glen! It would be a shame to wreck that beautiful Saturn.

[lateapex911]

I concur, though you are well aware my motivations had zero to do with "racing" him. I'd have been just tickled pink if he'd been able to run away and hide.

GA

P.S., I concede to the "passing driver's responsibility" rule, always have. But I'm still looking for that "door handle rule", where it's OK for me to move out - or turn in - on someone alongside as long as there's less than 1/2-car overlap. If you find that, let me know.

True. on both counts.

The second one is interesting.

The common perception is that a guy has "overlap sufficient enough to own the corner when the nose of the passing car is about halfway up the car being passed."

Even that statement is grey, and many can and will poke holes in it.

But that's not where I'm going.

I submit that if we assume that is a basic guideline, circumstances alter that "go/no go" condition drastically. (ignoring the actual drivers involved, for the purposes of this discussion)

For example, if I'm racing Dan Sheppard (my fiercest local competitor in my class) for the win in class, that's a good guideline, and i know if I'm passing him, I damn well better be to that point at turn in or he's a comin' down, LOL. On the other hand, if I'm racing one of the other guys in IT7, I know I might get away with only having a nose inside. And I'll try that, leaving a leeetle reserve in braking so I can jump back should they decide to claim the corner.

Conversely, I know I will come down on Dan Sheppard as if he isn't even on the track unless I think he's got a nose up to my door. (Key word: "think". I'll check the mirrors of course, and I'll use the usual spacial awareness and timing clues, but in the end if I feel he COULD be that far alongside, I yield, if I can't confirm that he actually is.)

Now, in the rain, I'll change that go/no go. In qualifying, I wouldn't think about fighting for a corner like that. Dumb. My lap is ruined, so it's better for all concerned to not draw it out.

In a test day and if I come up on say, a Legend car, there's no way in hell I'm sticking a nose in unless I have my nose even with his nose at turn in...at the least. Or I just back out and give him a 20 second gap.

In a race like this? If I'm slower, I let the in another class fast guy through. Maybe I'll learn something.

So, I think the whole who owns the corner thing is highly dependent on situation and requires judgement and consideration of the current circumstances.

[lawtonglenn]

Nicely done, Glen! It would be a shame to wreck that beautiful Saturn.


thanks Bruce ... but Jeff Lawton has the Saturn ... I have the RX7 :D

.

[Drew M]

.

here is a quick 2 minute segment of Saturday morning's ITR/S/B race showing
a successful (but very very very close) "Drive Off" to avoid Tyler Monroe's
off course/on course/off course excursion.

I suppose I was betting (correctly) that the grass was dry enough that I wouldn't
go right into the tire wall.

It's too bad Yannis (and Tim Mullen for that matter) weren't able to do this

http://vimeo.com/25408884

.

That was me in the RX-7 you guys were coming up on. I cringed when I looked in my mirror and saw you almost get nailed.

Do you have the next minute or two of that video? I got stuck behind the yellow Golf when it missed west bend and the Ford and BMW went by me. I was not happy. You went by me coming out of the downhill on the last lap.

[gran racing]

But I would NEVER race an ITA guy as hard as i would an IT7 guy for the win. It's not respectful.

Totally depends on the circumstances. In a couple of rain races at LRP I had been close enough to the front of the ITS field...if I had a chance, I would have loved the overall win (without doing anything too foolish to anyone else). Not respectful, oh well. Conversely at the Glen with the two SSM leaders going at it, I settled back, and did not get in the way of their battle (although did have a little fun bumping to keep them close together).

In this instance, neither car had anyone to battle with in-class and I can see them wanting to have fun.

I guess is where in the field does it become respectful to battle someone in another class? 3rd place, 4th, 10th, 15th?

[BruceG]

[QUOTE=lawtonglenn;323313]thanks Bruce ... but Jeff Lawton has the Saturn ... I have the RX7 :D

.[/QUOTEsorry about that,Glen,Now that I recognize your RX7...also a great car.....LOL:D

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jake,

Not sure I agree on your assessment of the overlap, it's 'amount' and how it disappeared. Either way, it was DAMN small, if anything when contact was initiated.

Like I said, putting myself in EACH drivers seat, I would hold myself accountable in BOTH cases. If I was Anthony, if I 'stay on line' when I knew a car could be there - I risk contact.

If I was Greg, I know that if I hold my line I risk contact on track out.

Both cars could have avoided it should eather driver chosen to go that way.

[dave parker]

Here is my view from West Virginia.
Both drivers fucked up and violated GCR 6.11.1 A,B,C, and D.
Both drivers have damaged racecars.
Both drivers are lucky that the stewards of this event are being lenient and letting "the boys sort it out".
If I was a steward at this event I would have through Chief Stewards Action or Request For Action reffered both to the SOM recommending they be disqualified for violating GCR 6.11.1 A,B,C,D.

Or we have both drivers scrotum's shaved publicly with a dull rusty razor. Driver's choice.



:dead_horse:
cheers
dave parker

[lateapex911]

Totally depends on the circumstances. In a couple of rain races at LRP I had been close enough to the front of the ITS field...if I had a chance, I would have loved the overall win (without doing anything too foolish to anyone else). Not respectful, oh well. Conversely at the Glen with the two SSM leaders going at it, I settled back, and did not get in the way of their battle (although did have a little fun bumping to keep them close together).

In this instance, neither car had anyone to battle with in-class and I can see them wanting to have fun.

I guess is where in the field does it become respectful to battle someone in another class? 3rd place, 4th, 10th, 15th?

yea, I was referring to a case where I would be trying to get around the lead (or top 3 say) ITA car in my IT7 car, and assuming that he was significantly ahead of his competition. I wouldn't push the "half alongside" go/no go decider as much in that case. I'd want to be clearly clean. CERTAINLY not a "I hope I'm clear" deal..


Jake,

Not sure I agree on your assessment of the overlap, it's 'amount' and how it disappeared. Either way, it was DAMN small, if anything when contact was initiated.

Like I said, putting myself in EACH drivers seat, I would hold myself accountable in BOTH cases. If I was Anthony, if I 'stay on line' when I knew a car could be there - I risk contact.

If I was Greg, I know that if I hold my line I risk contact on track out.

Both cars could have avoided it should either driver chosen to go that way.

Yea, I agree Andy, the bottom line is that it needed BOTH drivers to commit to their turf to make it happen.

I too would feel accountable in both cases. I'd feel more accountable if i were in the Porsche though, but maybe that's because I have no interest in holding a faster and lower classed car up. But yea, you're right.

[dj10]

I know and like both GA & Anthony. After watching the video and knowing the race was only half way completed leads me to believe that Anthony was doing more than just making his car wide he was blocking and instead of setting him up for a pass GA lost his cool and forced the issue. I didn't see anyone on GA's ass so he didn't need too do a desperate pass. Why Anthony was blocking is unknown to me since they are in different classes. I would have left GA by and watched him for awhile before trying again to pass him near the end of the race if it was possible. I didn't see any of the race before so something might have happened that I don't know about. I just commented on the video posted.
This is my story and I'm sticking to it. 8~P

[yannisalex2000]

Antony has been racing in the NE division for the past 10-12 years or so.For any one to suggest that he doesnt know his way around LR is plain wrong to say the least.Since both drivers are going to be racing in the same group for many years to come I say that the PR Departments tone the rhetoric down and let the two men resolve any issues they might have by themselves. Also there was another incident during the same race. We haven't heard anything from these drivers.No accusations no finger pointing no trash talk.NOTHING. NOT A WORD.I don't know maybe this is the correct way to handle things. JOHN A. ITR #53 WDC Region

[Jeremy Billiel]

Antony has been racing in the NE division for the past 10-12 years or so.For any one to suggest that he doesnt know his way around LR is plain wrong to say the least.Since both drivers are going to be racing in the same group for many years to come I say that the PR Departments tone the rhetoric down and let the two men resolve any issues they might have by themselves. Also there was another incident during the same race. We haven't heard anything from these drivers.No accusations no finger pointing no trash talk.NOTHING. NOT A WORD.I don't know maybe this is the correct way to handle things. JOHN A. ITR #53 WDC Region

I find it hard to believe that if Anthony is so good why he was so slow... How many hp does a freakin' 944 TURBO make?

[gran racing]

John, you posted your comments earlier in this thread didn't you? ;)

If both parties are on the forum and can be fairly civil, why not share the learning experience for others to benefit and learn from? It also opens this up to different perspectives and takes on the incident.

[lateapex911]

Antony has been racing in the NE division for the past 10-12 years or so.For any one to suggest that he doesnt know his way around LR is plain wrong to say the least.

Good point. ITA and SM cars are in the 2s. Antony, with one of the best chassis ever under him, and nearly 3 times the hp pushing the car was significantly slower. So, something wasn't right there. Not saying he doesn't know 'how to get around LRP", but it wasn't showing at that point.

I've been racing for many years, but I would bet my house that Bill Auberlin would freakin school me in my own car around any track I chose. He's got talent. I don't have that talent. Experience isn't the only story.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Is mylaps available yet?

[ner88]

FWIW, the Miata driver is the victim here and insert all armchair driver/hindsight disclaimers here, but he was two feet on the brake and trying to turn at the same time... someone should explain that to him and also point out that its okay to drive off the track to avoid, especially where there is all that room.

Really!
http://www.youtube.com/user/utubeyt#p/a/f/0/_uR0TkSVkAc

So, what would you teach him? NJ national, second place finish SM.:shrug:

[dj10]

I find it hard to believe that if Anthony is so good why he was so slow... How many hp does a freakin' 944 TURBO make?

Jeremy as you know there could be a multipal factors for why a person isn't going fast. I'm not condoning anybody in that video for what happen but if his handling was off, tires, maybe a couple of other factors we don't know about. I know it's happened to me also the only difference I wasn't trying to stay in the lead. I know his turbo has a restrictor.

I do know John A. is right these guys need to be honest with themselves and each other and talk it out.

My own personal feelings on blocking is that it should not be part of racing even in pro and in-class racing, making your car wide is something altogether different. You block, you do it at your own peril.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Jeremy as you know there could be a multipal factors for why a person isn't going fast. I'm not condoning anybody in that video for what happen but if his handling was off, tires, maybe a couple of other factors we don't know about. I know it's happened to me also the only difference I wasn't trying to stay in the lead. I know his turbo has a restrictor.



Dan - you beat me there. So if he was having "issues" why not get out of the way? :D

[StephenB]

Really!
http://www.youtube.com/user/utubeyt#p/a/f/0/_uR0TkSVkAc

So, what would you teach him? NJ national, second place finish SM.:shrug:


FWIW, the Miata driver is the victim here and insert all armchair driver/hindsight disclaimers here, but he was two feet on the brake and trying to turn at the same time... someone should explain that to him and also point out that its okay to drive off the track to avoid, especially where there is all that room.


Now can we please talk about the rest of the weekend!?

Chris,

I am shocked with this comment more than everything else I have heard here. I think that this particular driver has excellent skill and to be honest I think you should watch more of his videos. I really think you could probably learn a lot from him. Use his techniques next year in the snow, in a controlled environment, (maybe do some BMW club ice racing) you may be suprised on what your missing. Try stuff in the snow/ice not on track at high speed! Same outcomes at much slower speeds!

Stephen

PS: Not trying to be a dink and I do like you a lot but I can't help but defend someone that deserves defending. I honestly don't know the driver well but I did spend some time watching a few of his videos to form an opinion of his skill.

[Jeremy Billiel]

For what its worth.... Here is the entire race from Yiannis's incar. This may change your opinion a little although we all agree that Greg was pressing the issue.

See 3:30 to 6:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK_sI6zCWC0&list=PL4E584D055E19FD56

See 3:00 to 6:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy3DRGlxPUA&list=PL4E584D055E19FD56

[gran racing]

I don't see how he could have easily (maybe someone of extreme talent could have) avoided the 944 (the Meotter). Honestly, I could put myself in both Greg and the 944's position just looking at that one section of the track. There is more to it to race which may have changed my outlook.


My own personal feelings on blocking is that it should not be part of racing even in pro and in-class racing

I absolutely agree but haven't been in a pro racing position where if that guy gets by me it means the end of my pro racing days. It's easy for me to say I wouldn't think I'd do what it takes but until in that situation... Same general concept here. I could see myself tracking out at the end of big bend; I could also see myself going in like Greg did believing room would be given.

[anthony1k]

Some of the stuff that I read in this thread I find pretty unbelievable. There are several things that I want to say but I doubt that I will change anyone's mind. And frankly I don't care. What's done is done. We learn from the experience, we lick our wounds and we move on. I wish this forum moved on to another topic.

[Greg Amy]

We learn from the experience, we lick our wounds and we move on. I wish this forum moved on to another topic.
On this, we agree.

We've both had our say. Anthony and I walked away from the tower on Saturday having shaken hands and agreeing to remain friends, and I'm sorry I allowed myself to be talked into posting that video link.

We're both done. Let's move on.

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Boys want to move, we move.

[JeffYoung]

Good posts guys, very glad to see it.


On this, we agree.

We've both had our say. Anthony and I walked away from the tower on Saturday having shaken hands and agreeing to remain friends, and I'm sorry I allowed myself to be talked into posting that video link.

We're both done. Let's move on.

GA

[mossaidis]

Here's the G rated thread on LRP...

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29388

[Tkczecheredflag]

So I have to say that I sucked pretty bad this past weekend- chased the ass end of the car around the track most of the day. Actually started to look at boats I was so bumbed. :blink:

Enjoy the video.

http://www.vimeo.com/25479115

[Drew M]

So I have to say that I sucked pretty bad this past weekend- chased the ass end of the car around the track most of the day. Actually started to look at boats I was so bumbed. :blink:

Enjoy the video.

http://www.vimeo.com/25479115

Don't do that!

Hey, do you run out of the shop that's next to 121 restaurant?

[Tkczecheredflag]

Actually the car was built at MSN for Dave Davis by Anthony prior to our purchase.

Matt Kessler Engineering has been servicing us for the past few years. Matt has been doing a great job for us. I have tried to contact Anthony some time ago but he never got back to me. Heard from other racer customers that he is focused on selling cars and doesn't do much/any race car prep anymore, although that didn't come from his mouth.

[Drew M]

Actually the car was built at MSN for Dave Davis by Anthony prior to our purchase.

Matt Kessler Engineering has been servicing us for the past few years. Matt has been doing a great job for us. I have tried to contact Anthony some time ago but he never got back to me. Heard from other racer customers that he is focused on selling cars and doesn't do much/any race car prep anymore, although that didn't come from his mouth.

Soo....That's not your shop?

Reason I asked is because I live in Ridgefield too and I ride past the shop on my bike quite a lot.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Drew - check PM