So easy, even a caveman can do it!

[RedMisted]

Hey all.

If you know of anyone who wants to get their SCCA racing license but is afraid they lack the skills to make the grade, tell them about the GL Division driver's school. It doesn't matter if you spin your car across the track, into the pit lane, across the pit lane entrance, and into a false grid area and nearly kill two grid workers. Nor does it matter if you keep spinning off the same corner all weekend long. Nor does it matter if you're a foreigner with a compromised grasp of the English language, and therefore cannot pass the written exam given several tries. You'll get your provisionsal.

That's exactly what happened this past weekend. Is your division's driver's school that rigorous in its testing and evaluation of potential racers?

[Simon T.]

...Tell us more.

[RedMisted]

...Tell us more.

To put it in a nutshell, in SCCA, it i$ all about $$$$. Many regions want higher driver numbers to satisfy agenda$, so the term "driver's school" becomes a misnomer.

[joeg]

Chill.

[Jeremy Billiel]

To put it in a nutshell, in SCCA, it i$ all about $$$$. Many regions want higher driver numbers to satisfy agenda$, so the term "driver's school" becomes a misnomer.

Not up here in the Northeast. Money is not even part of the equation. It's only if all the instructors feel you are safe and ready to be on your own.

[JLawton]

Not up here in the Northeast. Money is not even part of the equation. It's only if all the instructors feel you are safe and ready to be on your own.


Yup. We've failed many students. In fact, I believe there was one we asked not to come back.

[RedMisted]

Not up here in the Northeast. Money is not even part of the equation. It's only if all the instructors feel you are safe and ready to be on your own.

Hats off to all of you in the Northeast, then, if you're doing it right.

Joe, you need to come down here and take an account of the situation before telling an insider to "chill." The problems with our school are not new, and are a reason we have so many incompetent drivers in this area of the division...

[ITA_honda]

Hats off to all of you in the Northeast, then, if you're doing it right.

Joe, you need to come down here and take an account of the situation before telling an insider to "chill." The problems with our school are not new, and are a reason we have so many incompetent drivers in this area of the division...

Chris - were you at the drivers school?

[RedMisted]

Chris - were you at the drivers school?

No. (It was Mother's Day weekend, wasn't it?) I had heard enough from those who were there. Besides, the prevailing issues go way beyond the school. Remember the IT Fest last year? The whole fiasco that was Race Group Two mirrors the lax permissiveness that was on display last weekend.

Greg, you're part of the apparatus, and I'm glad you saw this.

I know this is gonna piss off a lot of people. That's just too bad.

[Matt93SE]

Maybe shedding some details and suggestions on what to do would help versus just pointing fingers and complaining....
just a thought. :)

[preparedcivic]

I was at this school weekend for one day last year. I understand the OP's point completely, even being in IT Fest Race Group 2 as well.

And in NeDIV, I know NER and NNJR run pretty tight schools. Haven't necessarily heard as good a things about a certain Double School at the south end of the Division.

A while back here there was lots of rah rah on how good Double Schools are, given that they can provide a sign-off in a weekend and get someone racing in one shot. All I'll say is that in not necessarily a good thing.

[gran racing]

The double school format isn't the issue, it's the willingness to tell someone you're not ready yet or in a worst case, other sports beckon.

[preparedcivic]

The double school format isn't the issue, it's the willingness to tell someone you're not ready yet or in a worst case, other sports beckon.

I disagree Dave. A Double creates the expectation a sign-off is going to happen at the end of the weekend.

[JohnW8]

I disagree Dave. A Double creates the expectation a sign-off is going to happen at the end of the weekend.

Going to any School creates an expectation of success. No one ever expects to fail. A Double just makes it easier on the wallet. If the driver isn't safe for himself or others he/she should be shown how to efficiently load the car on the trailer.

[StephenB]

I disagree Dave. A Double creates the expectation a sign-off is going to happen at the end of the weekend.

Who sets that expectation?
The student.. NO. They get that expectation from others but they themselves didn't create it.
The club... possibly. By past observations from others passing in 1 double school. But honestly most deserve to.
How about the mentor or friend that got them to the point to take the school? I beleive that WE... me and you are the ones setting these expectations.

It's all about some PERSONAL accountability to those that we are mentoring and guiding along. Along with some Honest feedback which doesn't come often in our society other than in forums behind computers.

Back to the OP... I would recomend sending a kind letter to your cheif instructor asking if you (Or the others that are frustrated) can get involved. Explain your concerns and let him or her know that you and the other members are concerned and that you want to HELP. Take some personal accountability and the outcomes may change. Go back and ask those that complained to you why the students passed? If they don't know why they passed then ask them if they were so concerned did they actually do anything or did they just watch the situation unfold? Honestly I think to many people never ask questions and just let it go and complain later.

I would also like to know what track this is. If someone can spin into grid we (SCCA) should not be racing at that track. Possibly an exaggeration on these details since its hearsay but if it did happen then something needs to be looked at for safety at that track.

Stephen

[Matt93SE]

At the double school I went to last July (in SW Div), it was very clear that if you were not safe to race with, you didn't pass. the main statement from the instructors was "If I pass you, the next time I see you will be on grid next to my car. if I'm not comfortable with you in a car then, I won't pass you now."

I know for a fact the guys that were spinning and doing stupid crap on Sat drastically changed their behavior on Sunday so they were allowed to pass.
one driver was still a roadblock and was asked to go to a few more DEs, then come back to the next school (which is a year later) so they had plenty of time to think about it.

[RedMisted]

I would also like to know what track this is. If someone can spin into grid we (SCCA) should not be racing at that track. Possibly an exaggeration on these details since its hearsay but if it did happen then something needs to be looked at for safety at that track.
Stephen

Nelson Ledges. But please don't blame the track. As drivers, crew and workers, we take ultimate responsibility for our own individual safety. You must survey a situation and refuse to participate if the risk is deemed excessive.

[Matt93SE]

Nelson Ledges. But please don't blame the track. As drivers, crew and workers, we take ultimate responsibility for our own individual safety. You must survey a situation and refuse to participate if the risk is deemed excessive.

Agreed. but you can't remove responsibility from the workers and stewards if they continued to let an unsafe driver endanger everyone at the track that day.
If someone really IS consistently spinning off track and into the pits, then they need to have their keys taken away and the car put on the trailer for them.

[Z3_GoCar]

Having just renewed my regional license on a double dip weekend, where my motor blew its head gasket after the first day. I researched participation requirements to see if I needed a waiver and came across this:


2.2. Credit Toward License

A. To qualify for renewing or upgrading a license, a competitor must
participate in the minimum number of SCCA races specified in

Table 1. However, no license credit shall be given for the following:
1. Drivers Schools
2. Races held as part of a Drivers School
3. Events not sanctioned by the SCCA
4. Events resulting in a DNS or DNF
B. A licensed competitor may enter multiple cars in an event, but will
earn license credit for only one entry for each race group per sanction
number. A Novice Permit holder will earn license credit for only
one race for each sanction number.

So, then how can a racer go from nothing to novice to regional license in one weekend? And with no prior racing experience? Well, it is a long weekend, with the school starting on Thursday, and on Sunday they race in the regional. But specifically for Novice permit holders, one sanction number, one credit.

The economice stiuation in many regions has caused them to turn a blind eye to get new racers in.

[ITA_honda]

Agreed. but you can't remove responsibility from the workers and stewards if they continued to let an unsafe driver endanger everyone at the track that day.
If someone really IS consistently spinning off track and into the pits, then they need to have their keys taken away and the car put on the trailer for them.

That was the only off track excursion he had. Went too wide coming out of turn 13 on the last lap of the Saturday race. Cought the lip between the pavement and grass and it snapped the car to the inside of the track. The driver actually did a very good job of slowing it down (he was probably doing 65-70mph exiting) The exit of 13, pit in, and the grid are all in one general area. When he slid in to the pit/grid area he was doing maybe 15mph?

[darthmonkeyIT]

Its easy to blame others from the outside looking in.

Did some people deserve to fail? Maybe.

Does a incident on one turn at a single defined point on the track that if it had happened 10 feet earlier or later would have never been an incident to the magnitude that it was deserve failure? Probably not.

Does repeated mistakes in the same spot on the track resulting in spins deserve failure? Maybe. Take into account the turn in question is turn 12 after the kink and certain instructors were instructing not on how to take 12 better but how we are still slowing down into the kink and how we should be flat throttle through kink. Since there is so much to win at drivers school ya know?

Drivers schools are there to teach you how to be safe with a secondary goal of also teaching you how to be faster. My racing mentor warned me to ignore advice regarding driving faster and to comfortably learn to drive faster. I appreciated this advice and took it heart realizing many don't have an experienced racing mentor to consult with.

I understand instructors are volunteers too but some care needs to be taken to evaluate if a person just can't drive safely with others or if he is not being taught how to drive safely with others.

By the sounds of the OP, please come out and instruct at schools. If you feel this strongly about improving driver quality contribute your thoughts and ideas to teaching others how to be safe.

-Sean

[dave parker]

Chris
First, I was not at this school so it is unrealistic for me to comment on what happened there. I think that if you really think about it you will come to that same realization.

Second, if you sit down and read the GCR, (page 126 2.7.c) you will find that it states that anyone whom has passed two SCCA drivers schools is eligible for regional racing. This means that whether or not the instructor signs them off as "ready to race" if they pass two schools in the two year validity of their novice permit they are allowed to participate in regional racing.

Third, and most important is if you are upset at the quality of the drivers coming out of your region's/division's schools why don't you get involved? It makes zero sense to me why someone will complain about something that occurs in a VOLUNTEER run club when they are unwilling to get involved and do something about it. So rather than sit and say what a shitty job the people running the school did why don't you get into the instructor corp and do something to help make the school better?

Points to consider:
a. SCCA is the only amateur racing club I know of that someone with ZERO track experience can come to a racing school and learn how to race safely.

b. A SCCA school is only as good as its instructor corp and their willingness to share knowlegde and teach the skill involved.

c. How is SCCA club racing going to grow if it remains an "old boy network/ exclusive club"? If we are unwilling to bring in new racers (whom may have limited or no skills) than how are we going to survive as a viable club?

I think JoeG said it best "chill". Or, get involved and help fix the problem (if there is indeed a problem).

Disclaimer, I have been an instructor for my region's driver schools (Washington DC) for the last eight years.
cheers
dave parker

[RedMisted]

That was the only off track excursion he had. Went too wide coming out of turn 13 on the last lap of the Saturday race. Cought the lip between the pavement and grass and it snapped the car to the inside of the track. The driver actually did a very good job of slowing it down (he was probably doing 65-70mph exiting) The exit of 13, pit in, and the grid are all in one general area. When he slid in to the pit/grid area he was doing maybe 15mph?

That's a hell of a lot of real estate to keep a car going out of control, Greg.

A Mini Cooper sliding at 15 mph is more than enough mass to get someone seriously hurt. Or worse.

Maybe the driver should have been passed on the condition that he go through Mid Ohio's school of performance driving to gain some skid car experience?

[924Guy]

I've been instructing at race school for a long time.

Crap like this makes me very very nervous; I don't want to share the track with jerks like this.

Yet I continue to have to. I don't see any explanation here as to why.

Just this weekend my wife was nearly taken out as collateral damage from just such a yahoo, who was signed off on his license thanks to an old-boy network. Last year my teammate was taken out by the same guy.

It's a lot easier to catch them BEFORE they leave school, rather than correct the errors afterwards; that's when you get a lament from Stewards that "we can't do anything, he didn't hit anyone" or "it was a racing incident..."

Video proof doesn't help.

Chillin' out isn't gonna fix my cars. Getting jokers like this off the track - or, more to the point, keeping them from getting on it - will remove one big source of damage.

[dave parker]

Vaughn
Did you or your wife protest the actions of this other driver?
That is the first step in the process to get rid of these type of people.
Yes, no one wants to be "that guy" but you have to stand up for what you think is right.
If your protest was not upheld or ignored then you need to keep protesting. Or get some new stewards.


cheers
dave parker

[Matt93SE]

Sounds to me like there's more than the initial story says as far as what happened.

At a license school, instructors should NOT be pushing guys to drive faster. They should be pushing the guys to drive clean lines and to learn how to deal with traffic. for the guys that are consistently hitting the line and dealing with traffic, then and only then should the instructor work with the student on speeding up.

I haven't instructed at a race school, but I've instructed at DEs off and on for a few years. that's my philosophy- get the guy around the track SAFELY first. get the line down and braking points and basic driving technique. (get your hand off the damn shifter and on the wheel!) once they've got a good grasp of how to do that, then I work on better- later & harder- braking and carrying a bit of speed through the corner.

But that's just me. I've had instructors jump in my car in the early days of my DE life and tell me "you can take that corner flat" when I was 1000% certain that was beyond the limits of physics.


As for licensing procedure, each day at a double school counts for "one school". they obtain two sanction numbers for the school. Two days of school and you can obtain a novice license, which lets you get to a regional race.
Two "successfully completed" regional races on a novice permit nets you a regional license.

So you could go to a thurs-fai school and get your novice permit. double regional on Sat and Sun, and you walk away from the weekend with a regional license.

I did my school last July or so, then did six regionals in Oct, Nov, Jan (we race all year in TX. yaay.) so get my national license in time for the division's first Natl race of the year.


___________
There are other accredited private schools (like MSR-Houston's race school, Hallett/Stephens Bros Racing, Bondurant school, etc that will give you a regional license after a 3 day school.

[924Guy]

Vaughn
Did you or your wife protest the actions of this other driver?
That is the first step in the process to get rid of these type of people.
Yes, no one wants to be "that guy" but you have to stand up for what you think is right.
If your protest was not upheld or ignored then you need to keep protesting. Or get some new stewards.


cheers
dave parker

They needed to - yes, but no-one did. I agree, it clearly needs to happen. Two stewards were consulted right after the race - but as usual talked it down...

I predict paperwork next weekend. Hopefully it's only paperwork, and no body work.

[dave parker]

To ALL:
NEVER let a steward talk you out of filing a protest against another driver for on track behavior!!!!!!!!!

It solves nothing and fixes nothing. File the protest. If the operating steward refuses to hear the protest get the Chief Steward. If the C.S. refuses get the Chairman of the Stewards of the Meet involved.

The only reason that a steward will try to talk you out of a protest is because they are being lazy. If they try to talk you out of a protest they should not be a steward, period.

SCCA has some good stewards and some outstanding stewards, we also have some stewards whom have outlived their usefulness and need to find something else to do.

If you are upset about another drivers on track behavior and do not file a protest, keep your complaints to yourself because you are the only one to blame.
The protest process is there to help weed out those whom do not belong on the track in a wheel to wheel situation.


cheers
dave parker

[dickita15]

At a license school, instructors should NOT be pushing guys to drive faster.

Sorry that is wrong, there are a number of skills that need to be demonstrated in order to race. You need to be able to drive the line. You need to be able to race off line. You need situational awareness. You need car control. You definitely need to turn competitive times. If you are lacking in any of these areas the instructors need to coach in that area.
Allowing students to trundle around at 9/10 pace does not make for an accurate evaluation.

[dave parker]

Matt
Dick is correct. A student at a racing school has to be handled somewhat differently than a DE student.
I have had several students over the years who have approached the school with the mindset that "I am going to circulate around the track, stay out of trouble, not race anyone, and come away with a license". This is easily handled when I ask them pointedly, Do you want to PASS this school? If they say yes then I tell them that I have to see them RACE.
I have to see you pass people, I have to see you give racing room, I have to see you push yourself to your limit (not the car's limit which is usually well beyond most drivers at a school). I also have to see you use good judgement.

A student that shows up for a SCCA drivers school in a car that is not prepared well, with good tires (not used up junk), and competent crew is wasting their time.

Questions?

cheers
dave parker

[Terry Hanushek]

Dave


Second, if you sit down and read the GCR, (page 126 2.7.c) you will find that it states that anyone whom has passed two SCCA drivers schools is eligible for regional racing. This means that whether or not the instructor signs them off as "ready to race" if they pass two schools in the two year validity of their novice permit they are allowed to participate in regional racing.

In order for a Novice Permit holder to be eligible for regional racing, he must have six hours of on-track instruction, complete two schools with a Satisfactory rating and obtain the Drivers School Chief Steward's signature on the inside of the front cover in the Completion of Drivers School Requirements section. I have seen students who have completed two schools satisfactorily who are deemed 'not ready to race' by the instructors / Chief Steward (an example would be the 'just drive around' student who does not get up to race speed). Those students must attend a third school to demonstrate proficiency. In my experience stewarding Drivers Schools at Summit Point, Pocono and NJMP, the steward almost always follows the advice of the instructors. So yes, the instructors do have control over student drivers.

Terry

[lateapex911]

The first thing I tell my students in the morning meeting before we do ANYthing is that, in the end, I will or will not sign them off if i don't feel comfortable racing with them. And I tell them that involves attitude, preparedness, judgement and speed.

At the end of the day (or nearing it) I've told guys, "Sorry, you might want to race, but trust me, you will wish you weren't out there if i sign you off. So, I'm going to suggest you hit some track days and another school. Your issues are: xyz".

Then they get "Not ready to race, needs another school minimum" in their book. IF the Big cheese wants to fail them for the school or pass them with that notation, I don't care, as long as they don't get a provisional.

At NER schools we sit in a room and discuss each student. Sometimes it's "No way, and i told him so" and others agree. Sometimes it's "he had zero experience but was perfect all day long, did exactly what he was told and turned fast laps including off line passes, he's a natural, give him a provisional". Each case is discussed, other instructors weigh in, and the pressure from the Grand Poobah is always "If you will race with him, and others feel thats reasonable, then fine." I've never seen a guy passed because he's somebodies buddy.

[gran racing]

At a license school, instructors should NOT be pushing guys to drive faster.

I also disagree. A HPDE is totally different. At a HPDE, the goal is to instruct students from the beginning and slowly work their way up. It's truly the drivers education part. At a comp school, the goal IMO is more of a "is this person ready?" I'd much rather see how they react in situations when there's some red mist here, than when on the first race event. Yes, I too tell people who talk to me about the schools not to cave into the "drive beyond their abilities" but also say the same for their races. Push them, see how they react. They respond and ask for help, give it to them.

[Z3_GoCar]

As for licensing procedure, each day at a double school counts for "one school". they obtain two sanction numbers for the school. Two days of school and you can obtain a novice license, which lets you get to a regional race.
Two "successfully completed" regional races on a novice permit nets you a regional license.

So you could go to a thurs-fai school and get your novice permit. double regional on Sat and Sun, and you walk away from the weekend with a regional license.

I did my school last July or so, then did six regionals in Oct, Nov, Jan (we race all year in TX. yaay.) so get my national license in time for the division's first Natl race of the year.


___________
There are other accredited private schools (like MSR-Houston's race school, Hallett/Stephens Bros Racing, Bondurant school, etc that will give you a regional license after a 3 day school.

I'm talking about a 1/2 day of instruction on Thursday, driving on Friday and Saturday, then double dipping on Sunday and being signed off with a full Regional License.

[Matt93SE]

I see your points and yes, I agree. I was looking at it from a slightly different perspective and thinking of a more 'remedial student' like this joker that seems to want to spin continually.

those guys need to slow down and get help finding a safe way around the track before they need help dealing with traffic AND getting around the track. (and honestly a racing school isn't the place for them if they can't find their own way around a track).

But yes, the point of a racing school is to learn how to deal with traffic- at speed. You need to be able to make passes on and off the line and deal with spins and near-spins. If you can't keep the car on the track at this point, you gots problems.


I'm talking about a 1/2 day of instruction on Thursday, driving on Friday and Saturday, then double dipping on Sunday and being signed off with a full Regional License.
Umm yeah, that don't happen- or shouldn't. There was a young lady that went through my school and entered both SM and ITA at the first regional weekend. She had several 'issues' and spun at least 2-3 times in each race, finishing last/near last in both races on both days.

When I went in to get my novice permit signed, the CS looked at my permit and finishing position (3rd overall, 2nd in class in small bore on Sat; 2nd overall, 1st in class on Sun with moderate traffic), signed it, and handed it back to me. The other novice then spent 45 min getting 'debriefed' with him and he refused to sign off on her for either race and told her to run another weekend before he'd sign off on it.

Her dad (a veteran SM racer) then complained that she finished 4 races that weekend and did better on sunday, and she should get signed off on at least two. CS said "nope. one sanction number, one race per day. That's two chances. she sucked on sat and was marginally better on Sun. come back next month and try again."

The good thing is she's doing MUCH better and actually outran me in a rain race (until she spun 2 laps later and got stuck in the mud!)

[gran racing]

I'm talking about a 1/2 day of instruction on Thursday, driving on Friday and Saturday, then double dipping on Sunday and being signed off with a full Regional License.

I'm not sure that I care (although it should be a novice permit IMO). We have certain standards, abilities, and decision making that a person needs to meet. If a person has 600 HPDEs, went to 3 pro racing schools, and at the comp school doesn't meet the set criteria - sorry, no go. If this is the first time out on track and they do meet that criteria, pass, here's your license. Seems like the challenge for some regions is not adhering to what a person should be capable of out on track, not that it happens on one weekend versus two.

Regions are also in a tough spot that we need more people being involved and the economy is playing a factor in all of this. It's a balancing act from their perspective. I do agree that I don't want to go wheel-to-wheel with people who are not ready and understand the potential consequences.

[CRallo]

How about those that come from skippy or somewhere else signed off for a Regional, if not National license?

And telling someone "they can take X corner FLAT" is the biggest kiss of death! I speak from experience lol besides you work on corner exit speed first...

[924Guy]

...Her dad (a veteran SM racer) then complained that she finished 4 races that weekend and did better on sunday, and she should get signed off on at least two. CS said "nope. one sanction number, one race per day. That's two chances. she sucked on sat and was marginally better on Sun. come back next month and try again."


Dad oughtta be ashamed.

He's not gonna be riding along with her out on track making decisions for her; he shouldn't be playing lawyer/advocate to the Stewards either.

Kudos to your CS for sticking to his guns and doing the right thing.

[Matt93SE]

He's not gonna be riding along with her out on track making decisions for her; he shouldn't be playing lawyer/advocate to the Stewards either.


You should hear dad from the grandstands on the radio. This was at her first race, so I hope it's better now, but....
We were lined up on the pace lap and my dad was next to hers in the stands...
"Okay, you should be in third gear now. get closer to the guy in front of you. right on his bumper.. don't hit him! now get closer! gREEN GREEN GREEN FLOOR IT! NOW SHIFT TO FOURTH! Pull down to the inside to get around this guy"

... and right about then she spins off in T1 because she was too busy listening to the radio and not looking out her windshield.

uhhhh, dad.. back off. if she can't get a start on her own, she ain't gonna be able to race.
(I've run with and without radios.. all I want to know on the radio is where the yellows are and if I'm gaining on the guy in front of me. the rest of the time, SHADDUP and let me drive!)

[lateapex911]

I'm not a parent, so i have no right saying ANYthing. But that hasn't always stopped me. A trait I see too often is the blind eye parents turn to their kids. Or maybe they view them with rose colored glasses. Not every...or even most parents, but certainly some seem to have an internal switch flipped when it comes their own DNA.

(My girlfriends a teacher, and the stories and defenses some parents put up is astounding. Face it lady, your kids a shit, needs a good military school. Stop blaming everything BUT the kid when every other kid is doing just fine in the same environment)

[Matt93SE]

Yeah, same here. Wife's a teacher and ohhh the stories she tells about parents.
"what did you do to my child to make him act like that in your class?"
"I said 'good morning, mark.'"
"I'm going to have your job for that!"
whatever....

This group isn't that bad- I think dad just needs to put down the radio and let her race. the girl's only 16 or 17 and has improved dramatically with some seat time. I had 10 years of DEs before I went racing. She had 10 weeks. :)

[gizmo83]

Just an opinion from the other side...
I went to scca school having NEVER been in a race car!
Thought you had to just 'get in and go fast'!!
Silly Me!
I was told that doing a double school there was a chance I could be racing that weekend!
Thank God my instructors were smarter than that!!!
Obviously I was not ready that weekend... and A very wise "Jake" told me to do track days, etc, until the next school and get some seat time!
I think I'm a much safer racer having the extra track time in between schools. I realize that most people going to the first scca school have more experience than I did but I think the instructors have to be able to tell someone they need more instruction and seat time!!

[lateapex911]

Yeah, same here. Wife's a teacher and ohhh the stories she tells about parents.
"what did you do to my child to make him act like that in your class?"
"I said 'good morning, mark.'"
"I'm going to have your job for that!"
whatever....

This group isn't that bad- I think dad just needs to put down the radio and let her race. the girl's only 16 or 17 and has improved dramatically with some seat time. I had 10 years of DEs before I went racing. She had 10 weeks. :)

Must be nice being 16 and having Daddy pay for your racing. It's not like it's a needed step in her future life or anything.:shrug:

[downingracing]

I'm one of the 0 experience drivers who did 2 single schools 13 years ago. I wasn't fast, but had a clue what was going on around me and wasn't a danger to anyone. Instructor was 'open' to signing me off after a single school, but it was the Oct. school at Summit and I was already planning to do the April school @ Nelson the following spring. I felt I needed the other school and was glad I did it. With my home track being Mid-Ohio, back then regional SS class always had 12-15 cars per race in class with 35-50 cars in the run group.

As far as on-track incidents - There are always 2 sides (or more) to each story. I saw some of the contact last year and there is 'racing incident' contact. It can happen when you're running door to door for 13-20 laps. I've seen bonehead moves, head-in-ass driving and people who need to find a new hobby. BUT until someone approaches these folks and makes an effort, they may have no clue anything is wrong.

I had an issue several years ago with someone trying to be 'nice' and get out of the way of me and someone I was racing. The person tried to be nice and move but we were both committed to the lines we were taking to pass. Well - The event ended with no contact and both of us able to gather it together and keep racing. (Not sure how contact didn't happen!) Had a talk with the 'nice' driver about how to handle that situation in the future and an explanation about what could have happened with that move. The driver was very open to the conversation and learned how to handle the situation in the future. And since I had that talk - no issue ever again with that driver.

[Z3_GoCar]

I'm not sure that I care (although it should be a novice permit IMO). We have certain standards, abilities, and decision making that a person needs to meet. If a person has 600 HPDEs, went to 3 pro racing schools, and at the comp school doesn't meet the set criteria - sorry, no go. If this is the first time out on track and they do meet that criteria, pass, here's your license. Seems like the challenge for some regions is not adhering to what a person should be capable of out on track, not that it happens on one weekend versus two.

Regions are also in a tough spot that we need more people being involved and the economy is playing a factor in all of this. It's a balancing act from their perspective. I do agree that I don't want to go wheel-to-wheel with people who are not ready and understand the potential consequences.

It was the Chief Steward who was talking about signing off all the drivers after a double dip. Then there was a student who punted another student during the practice race. The corner workers were sure that he wouldn't get his book signed off, but he did.

I understand about the tough spot the regions are in. Heck, I'm part of the problem when my car's down for a year while I collect the parts for a head gasket job. I'm trying to pay down my debts, and limit my expenditures. Increased fuel prices don't help me either.

[Matt93SE]

Must be nice being 16 and having Daddy pay for your racing. It's not like it's a needed step in her future life or anything.:shrug:

The story I heard is that she's driving dad's old car. he was a front-runner for years and then Mom made Dad quit racing to spend time with the kid(s). now they're old enough to race, so Dad's getting to play at the track again.

BTW.. they show up with an RV, 30ft trailer, and a crew of about 5 for every race.

this is grassroots ITA/SM racing here!! :D

But they're nice peeps and she's getting better, so it's all good.

[Mseiler]

I think what it boils down to is maturity. Some have it at 16 others never get there. Intructors and Stewards do no one a favor by signing off unprepared or immature students. The one thing that all the instructors stressed a my double school was, "if I wouldn't be comfortable on grid next to you, you ain't gonna pass" Emphasis was on dealing with traffic, passing and being overtaken. Some effort was made to get us to go fast(don't be dawdling around and think that's good enough, show you can "race") but it was secondary to getting down the first 3 aspects. The first two days in the wet made things interesting as well.

As far as being 16 years old and having someone buy you a seat in a race car...my skivvies meet that criteria :blink:

[boywonder]

As far as being 16 years old and having someone buy you a seat in a race car...my skivvies meet that criteria :blink:

That, sir, is a most excellent line. hahahaha!! :happy204:

[Bryan KF8G]

Nelson Ledges. But please don't blame the track. As drivers, crew and workers, we take ultimate responsibility for our own individual safety. You must survey a situation and refuse to participate if the risk is deemed excessive.

Thanks for the endorsement of Nelson Ledges! We'll discuss other issues you have the next time I see you...
Bryan
#16 IT7 Mazda...

[Hahn63]

Seriously:mad1:. Chris, you wasn't even there and you make such statements.! Did you even bother to ask others ( more than one) about what happened? Most on this forum know I can drive and I have ended up in pit lane / grid because of a spin. So then your telling me I shouldn't be allowed to race? We all know it can happen and it is watched for, that is why no one is allowed to pit there. Making such statements without first hand knowledge is damaging to your own region, divison, track as well as SCCA on a whole. You must have facts, not hear say, before making statements like that. If it is desirved after you heard the facts, then speak your mind. Not being there and not having all the facts and making a statement is by far just plain wrong!! As a trustee of Neohio I have heared what happened at the event from everyone that was involved and I would have no problem racing with any of the attendies. I would be willing to discuss this issue with you at lenght. In these times you must be very careful to have the facts before you speak. Once something is said right or wrong it is very quickly put out for all to see. In effect one statement could affect the ability of a region to get a good car count thus not breaking even on an event then not being able to hold an event again or at a price no one would pay, the track then suffers and may not survive. then you would have no place to race. I am sure that this was not your intent but could be the result of your statement. Get involved, come to the meetings... you can drive and be part of the plannin....Get INVOVLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:026:

Ok I am done now:dead_horse:

:D

Roland

[RedMisted]

Bartzi: Chill.

Roland: I'm not going to re-air what I've already said. Some of this is perhaps, at least, a case of he said/she said, different perpectives/perceptions on an issue, gray area stuff. And maybe I was misinformed about a thing or two about an incident. But for crying out loud, don't blame me for the totality of Nelson's problems, or the region's for that matter. Both have had issues for years and I'm not going to be the scapegoat for them.

I've been nothing but a supporter of the track for years. Ask Kerrie. All the fundays/test days/races I've run over the past 10years. And will continue to be supportive. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to keep quiet if I have an issue with a sanctioning body that is using the track. And in this case, that body is the region with respect to its conduct of driver schools.

The biggest problem with SCCA is that the powers that be squelch anyone or anything that tries to suggest a needed change in the culture. I took a stand because I was very fed up with what I've seen with the quality of drivers in our section of the GL/NE Division. My rant, really, is ultimately about more than just driver schools. (Did you read that right?) I've noticed that I'm not the only one with my concerns, and that should be a notice for the area's SCCA regions to shape up the schooling and race stewardship of drivers at all the area tracks or risk losing other drivers to NASA or EMRA or PCA or some other competitive motorsports venue.

After all, doesn't money talk?

[Hahn63]

Some of this is perhaps, at least, a case of he said/she said, different perpectives/perceptions on an issue, gray area stuff. And maybe I was misinformed about a thing or two about an incident.

But that doesn't mean that I'm going to keep quiet if I have an issue with a sanctioning body that is using the track. And in this case, that body is the region with respect to its conduct of driver schools.

risk losing other drivers to NASA or EMRA or PCA or some other competitive motorsports venue.

After all, doesn't money talk?



Like I said misinformed

Wrong again, this wasn't the region putting it on it was the divison.

Help yourself to one of the 3, you'll be back.

NO, in SCCA money doesn't talk when it comes to rules and saftey.