NHMS Triple, Memorial Day Weekend 2011

[Greg Amy]

Entry is open at MotorsportsReg...

[mossaidis]

Remember that there is NHMS open track day on Friday 5/27...

PS. I just "double dipped" registered in ITA and STL. "I am so excited!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHLMcp5v8m4

PS. COMSCC.org will be there on Monday and Tuesday as well - they are very friendly to SCCA club racer - if you want more track time.

[PDoane]

It's been 5 years since I raced at NHMS, where is the sound meter?

[Terry Hanushek]

It's been 5 years since I raced at NHMS, where is the sound meter?

Drivers right on the unused part of the oval passing Station 10

Terry

[anthony1k]

No mention of garages in the supps. Are they available for renting?

[ner88]

Contact NHMS, they rent them, you may want to reserve one in advance.

[wepsbee]

I got nailed for sound this past weekend. I was running at 100 and the limit has
been lowered to 99.

[anthony1k]

Contact NHMS, they rent them, you may want to reserve one in advance.

Booked a spot. Thank you

[ulfelder]

Just registered. Will also do the test day. Very excited to be dusting off the S2000!

[Greg Amy]

Booked a spot. Thank you
Did you book a whole door ($175?) There's more than enough space for two cars, and Jeff Lawton is looking for a garage slot...

[mossaidis]

I would be more than happy to share a spot with Jeff... teehee. :)

ADD: Are they out of spots already?

[anthony1k]

Did you book a whole door ($175?) There's more than enough space for two cars, and Jeff Lawton is looking for a garage slot...
Waiting to hear if the brother-in-law will come up to play with us. If not, Jeff (or anyone else) is welcome to a spot.

[PDoane]

Thanks for the info on the sound meter. Gotta swap the "muffler" over to the other side.

[PDoane]

A couple more NHMS questions.

What is the latest on letting competitors in Thurs night, yes or no (line up at the gate for Fri aM entry)?

The track never used to charge for overcrew, do they now (as per the Supps)?

Thanks again

[PDoane]

and who is covering the event for tires? Used to be Northeast.

[ner88]

No Thursday PM access. As far as what you do on Thursday PM, call the track or Wal-Mart is not far!:shrug:
Friday track opens at 7:30AM for test and Tune, $10.00 per person. Half day T&T is $100. (PM only) or all day for $150. cars on track at 9AM.
Over crew is a track contracted expense, we generally are fine with one or two extra but beyond that?????

[ner88]

Oh, tires:
Phil's Tire for Toyo
Northeast for everything else!

[anthony1k]

One garage spot is available. Please PM me if interested.

[Greg Amy]

...aaaaand...I'm a "scratch" yet again. Car's not quite ready and I'm instead choosing to use the predicted nice weather to grind and epoxy the garage floor (and drink beer, and watch racing on TV, and maybe open the pool, etc).

Denise van Buren may have a garage slot available if you're interested.

Enjoy the weekend, see y'all at Lime Rock (?)

GA

[dickita15]

...aaaaand...I'm a "scratch" yet again. Car's not quite ready and I'm instead choosing to use the predicted nice weather to grind and epoxy the garage floor (and drink beer, and watch racing on TV, and maybe open the pool, etc).

Denise van Buren may have a garage slot available if you're interested.

Enjoy the weekend, see y'all at Lime Rock (?)

GA
you do know you suck right?

[Greg Amy]

you do know you suck right?
Remember, Billiel's my race car partner. I get reminded regularly...

[ner88]

Hey Greg...Desperately seeking flaggers??? We buy lunch, dinner and beer!:shrug:

[mossaidis]

I think I know why Matt had a "sudden" opening on his Friday schedule which I gladly booked... Well, have fun drinking.

[anthony1k]

Looking for a garage spot. Please PM me if you have one. Thanks

[mossaidis]

PM sent

[gizmo83]

We have a garage spot. If anyone is interested we are in North garage 17 & 18!

[Kahl23]

If I wanted to come and see what IT is all about, is there any way to attend as a spectator?

[wepsbee]

Show up and pay an spectator entrance fee or get with someone and be added on
as crew.

[StephenB]

If I wanted to come and see what IT is all about, is there any way to attend as a spectator?

I am not racing this weekend but I will be there july 9th and 10th. PM me and I will gladly put you on crew so you can get in for free! To be honest I am surprised no 1 offered that here for this weekend. Like I said just let me know if you wanna go in july!

Stephen

[JLawton]

Updates?

[jimalley]

A brief update on ITA. Tim showed up wit a splitter on his car that he had not tested. The car was terrible loose in qualifing and he was way off on qualifiing time.

Alley qualified on pole with Geoff outside first row,

Tim took the spliter off and changed his rear tires and was ready to have at it when the green flag dropped for the race.
Race stared with Geoff getting under Jim in turn three and the chase was on. Tim quickly worked his way through the field and after chasing jim for a few laps got by and started working on Geoff with Jim in close pursuit waiting for Geoff and Tim to work each other until someone made a mistake. Tim did get by Geoff and it looked like it was going to be an interesting race for the top three, until it started to rain. Lap times fell off almost instantly and the order stayed in place for the last half of the race,

Tim
Geoff
Jim

[ulfelder]

Quick S/R/B report:

The Autotechnic guys dominated R and S. Saturday morning qual times were fast, with lots of 14s and a nice 1:13.9 by Rob Thiele for the overall and R pole. Rob would go on to take R in all three races, including an overall win Sunday afternoon.

Meanwhile in ITS, Rob Driscoll and Jeff Henderson ran 1-2 in all three races, with Rob D taking a pair of overall wins as well.

After the Sunday afternoon race, top finishers had their ride heights checked. When I left Impound, it looked as if Rob D's car had been deemed a bit too low, but I say that hesitantly - everybody was set to get out of Dodge; I haven't seen final-final sheets; and I don't know if Rob planned to protest the decision.

Sunday's races, in particular, were fun because the track got so greasy that much of R and S raced in one giant pack the whole time. So we had the Autotechnic guys; Russ Jones' 944; Glenn Lawton's RX-7; me in the S2000; and Chris Outzen's new BMW Z3 all thrashing away on a slick track. IT racing at its best, if you ask me.

In B, it was Nat Wentworth over Tim Dugan in the first two races, not sure about the third race.

The Saturday afternoon race saw a huge crash in Turn 12. Blake spun his RX-7, and Tim Mullen collected him head-on. Everybody was OK, but the cars were bent badly and the race was shortened for cleanup.

[Russ Jones]

Very close racing in ITR and ITS. For ITS we had Mazda, BMW and Porsche in the top all weekend, on Sunday we all ran within couple tenths-that's what I love about IT, three different makes all running bumper to bumper. Great weekend, lots of action. I hope Glen Lawton will post his video of Sunday morning race - it was getting intense.

[lawtonglenn]

indeed...some great great racing!! (don't tell Billiel, he thinks ITS is dead)

I will try to trim up the videos from all three races in the morning (including
the incar from Bob Blake's race) before I leave for a short business trip.

Thanks Steve, Rob, Jeff, Russ, Rob, Bob, Ann for some close fun times!

[coutzen]

I can't post a link to my in-car video of the last race because I am new to this forum. But if you goto "youtube" and search for 3dpA3BWKgiE you can see it. It was a lot of fun running with you guys.

Chris Outzen
#93 ITR Z3 Coupe

[lawtonglenn]

holy $$1TT Chris THANKS!!!!!

look at the train through 11 at 3:40 could've thrown a blanket
over the five of us! .... inches noses to tails!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dpA3BWKgiE

[coutzen]

Splitting the ITB cars at 10:52 was very cool too.

[Jeremy Billiel]

indeed...some great great racing!! (don't tell Billiel, he thinks ITS is dead)



Sounds like a good time! Congrats on the close racing and Glenn yes you are taking that comment too far.

[jimalley]

Sundays ITA races were a split with two different winners.

In the morning race it started as a close race but eventually Geoff B. put a safe distance between himself with a hard fought battle in ITA betweem Tim K. and Jim A. followed very closely by an SSB Soltice. Jim persued Tim almost bumper to bumper and managed to race Tim side to side, but TIms experience and driving skills prevailed.

Geoff
Tim
Jim

The afternoon race was once again a very good race with Tim and Geoff fighting it out throughout the entire race. Old age, lack of proper conditioning, and lack of consentration saw Jim fall back fairly early, where the best he could do was to keep the top two in sight and settle for his third podium finsh of the weekend.

Tim
Geoff
Jim

All in all this was the best racing weekend of my short racing experience. As I told Tim after one of the weekend races it wasn't to long ago that these two were lapping me in a race. Yes progress has been made:026:

[rthiele]

Guys, thanks for some great racing this weekend! @Chris, welcome to ITR and thanks for the highly professional looking video. Love the track and data overlays - and of course the most fun is watching the close racing :happy204:

Here's my onboard, I was lucky to shoot a pretty boring video in the second half after I passed Rob D then Jeff H :-). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGpdk82RjxM

CU in NJ!

[ulfelder]

Chris, welcome to the ITS/R fray - we're glad to have you around, tank-slappers and all! :D

[lawtonglenn]

Steve Ulfelder:

Thanks for your sincere apology, but if you frame by frame through Chris' video at 0:45, you
will see that you, in fact, did nothing wrong...


I nosed in under Thiele to make a try
I saw you on the left, and knew we couldn't go 3 wide
I tucked in behind Thiele and stayed wide of you
I straddled the new (off camber) pavement at the exit
I lost the rear end (you can see the front tire turn right to correct)
When the car came back, it slapped you with my rear quarter panel


as I see it, no fault to either of us....just racing :)

.

[ulfelder]

Glenn, I was thinking exactly the same thing as I watched the vid. At the time, I thought I had tracked too wide on exit, forcing you to either thump me or drive off the road. On further review, as they say in the NFL, I see you wiggled and gave me a harmless whack.

Therefore, I retract my apology. :)

Fun race, fun weekend. See you at the Rock in a few weeks.

[JLawton]

Chris, welcome to the ITS/R fray - we're glad to have you around, tank-slappers and all! :D


Yeah, ya don't want to trail brake into 9 Chris!!. A) it's easy to have the back end come around with the off camber and, B) you really don't want to be facing the wrong way between 9 and 10.............. ask me how I know!!! :D

[Kahl23]

I am not racing this weekend but I will be there july 9th and 10th. PM me and I will gladly put you on crew so you can get in for free! To be honest I am surprised no 1 offered that here for this weekend. Like I said just let me know if you wanna go in july!

Stephen

Thanks a lot Stephen! I really appreciate the offer. I'll reach out to you via PM for details. Not sure if I can make it up, but I'll certainly try.

I did manage to make it up for part of the action on Saturday and a big thanks to Rob Thiele and the guys from Autotechnic for making me feel welcome. I'm looking forward to joining the ranks soon!

Aaron

[benspeed]

Congrats folks! Looks like a great weekend. Nothing like catching the in-car videos after the weekend.

Way to go Rob Thiele! Great drive 1:13! Smoking fast time :-)

I sure hope Rob D was not penalized on height. I have memories of trouble in the tech shed last year at NHIS :-(

[gran racing]

Is the ITB car totalled Tim? Sounding that way since you're asking about other cars that are for sale. Man that sucks.

[Greg Amy]

Is the ITB car totalled Tim? Sounding that way since you're asking about other cars that are for sale. Man that sucks.
Jeez, I hope not! But if so...I know someone who needs an engine... ;)

[JoshS]

I can't post a link to my in-car video of the last race because I am new to this forum. But if you goto "youtube" and search for 3dpA3BWKgiE you can see it. It was a lot of fun running with you guys.

Chris Outzen
#93 ITR Z3 Coupe

I'm really happy to see that someone else built a Z3 Coupe for ITR!

[gran racing]

Oh, that's right. What happened to the Golf III? Forgot you're driving an Audi.

[Greg Amy]

Oh, that's right. What happened to the Golf III? Forgot you're driving an Audi.
Actually, correction: now that I think about it, he IS driving the Golf, I think his brother bought the Coupe. I keep remembering him in the Coupe because that's the ass I had my nose tucked under when I drove the Suzuki Swift at Pocono...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Pictures of Z3? That run group is heating up.

WTT: ITA Miata for ITR....

[coutzen]

Pictures of Z3?
It is kind of ugly now with temporary numbers. I was going to get it all "stickered-up" this week. But now I will have to wait until I get some body work done.

[TimM ITB]

Dave and Greg;

yup, it's the Golf! My brother Matt did buy the Audi, and although a newbie, he's coming along quickly!
The Golf is fixable, but it will take some work. And I am just looking at options. Don't know if I feel like re-building the Golf again, may want to look at an ITA or ITS, or even ITR to get in to. I love the battles that I have had with other ITB guys - great racing! But this may be the right time to try something else? Not sure yet. If I was ever going to do something else, this looks like a great time to do it - unfortunately.
I will keep you posted! PS: had a good conversation with Jeff L. today - nice car with a good price! We shall see...............

[ulfelder]

Dave and Greg;

... may want to look at an ITA or ITS, or even ITR to get in to. ...

ITR, my man. You know it's what you want. You too, Andy. :023:

[StephenB]

Yup ITR ITR ITR!!! I would love to race door to door with you again!

I am truly sorry for your loss :( Racing isn't cheap and It's always discouraging to see another car taken out of commission

Stephen

[Z3_GoCar]

It is kind of ugly now with temporary numbers. I was going to get it all "stickered-up" this week. But now I will have to wait until I get some body work done.

Here's some advice I got from Tom Bell who races a JP Z3: Don't touch the brakes unless you're prefectly straight. Think of the Z3 as a shorter, twicther, front engined version of a Porsche 911.

[coutzen]

Here's some advice I got from Tom Bell who races a JP Z3: Don't touch the brakes unless you're prefectly straight. Think of the Z3 as a shorter, twicther, front engined version of a Porsche 911.
Thanks for the info. I'm still learning about the car. We just finished it last month. We are now tracing down a problem with it going into limp-mode.

Anyway here my in-car video of the 1st race Saturday afternoon. The video starts on my 2nd lap. I spun in turn 3 on lap 1 and my camera lost this footage. I spun do the normal reasons cool tires, too much speed and a general lack of talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3R0-0n0hAc

[Z3_GoCar]

Ah, limp mode when disabling one of the wheel sensors... That reminds me of why I argued to toss the stock ecu. I think Josh has found a work around, probably just keep all the wheel speed sensors connected. Second problem you may encounter is the disconnected ABS pump causing all front brakes, and no rear. I tossed the pump, and replumbed the master cylinder, and installed a bias valve.

Welcome to the madness, looks like you may do well, and good luck.

[JoshS]

Just leave the RR wheel speed sensor connected. Perfectly legal to disconnect only three, and this won't confuse the ECU. Works fine on my '99, stock ECU w/custom flash (and the flash has nothing to do with the brakes.)

[rthiele]

@Chris very nice video again! What system are you using?

[Doc Bro]

A Z3 in limp mode.....hmmmm sounds so familiar. I totally second the straight line braking on a Z. Very twitchy car, very fickle car but a hoot to drive. If I went from the e36 to the Z I'd own a boat right now. Going from the Z to something stable and predictable is very fun.

AB....you serious on ITR.....Hmmm.....A miata woul definitely take up less room......

R

[lawtonglenn]

.

Here is the Bob Blake / Tim Mullen head on crash, from Bob's incar video:

00:09 Green Flag

10:24 Spin

10:50 Crash

(if the video is choppy, toggle the HD off)

http://vimeo.com/24468928

.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If there was a waving yellow there.........

[lawtonglenn]

.

at 10:28 (while Bob is still spinning) you can see the yellow come out

However, I spoke with the drivers of 5 of the 7 of the cars that came through
between the spin and crash (Joe, Dominick, Matt, Nat and Tim) and all
but one of them (Joe) said that they DID NOT SEE ANY FLAG...you can see
that Joe is going much slower, and that the others are at speed.

When I came back around, there was no precautionary yellow at 10, and
behind me, Matt said he the flaggers at 10 pulling the white for the rolling ambulance.

So...as I see it, this is a lesson that the flag station at 11 is not in a position
that flags can be seen at speed, and must be moved

.....also....in the 10:50-10:24 = 26 seconds Bob was in the middle of the track,
either precautionary yellow should have been flown at 10, or full course yellow
should have been called.

.

[StephenB]

I agree that that flag station is very hard to see and always has been. But I am not sure how they could change the station and be safe for the Nascar oval. I vote that we get rid of that turn all together... I have always hated the hole/curbing in that area of the track anyway!

Sorry that this happened to both of you... your both great guys and I respect you both as experienced heads up drivers that race hard but understand we do this for fun and not for a living!

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

.

.....also....in the 10:50-10:24 = 26 seconds Bob was in the middle of the track,
either precautionary yellow should have been flown at 10, or full course yellow
should have been called.

.

So I am trying to learn from this. If I was driving and I saw a 'precautionary single yellow' at 10, then I saw nothing between 10 and 11, I would have to assume the danger was gone and I would have amped back up to 100%.

The issue is whether or not drivers can see the station around 11/12. I haven't raced there in over a year so I wonder if the station has been moved back? The flag clearly comes out VERY quickly. The spin isn't even half over before it's waving (10:28). Every station can't be directly in the drivers sightline. I have seen plenty of waving yellows there for cars spun out or even off onto NASCAR 4.

The red Porsche at 10:41 IMHO clearly sees the flag and/or the car. His pace is so slow he can come inside (and does). The two Miata's at 10:47 also seem to be aware.

The Volvo and the VW don't (seem to be aware of the yellow).

[benspeed]

That is a total shame. And I think that's one of the best runs I've seen from Bob Blake - he was right up there with the leaders.

Andy's correct - the Volvo and VW are 100% and don't seem to know that a car was in track.

Nasty hit - glad that everybody is OK.

You could tell Bob was ready to head back out with crushed hood and all! Can the car be fixed?

[coutzen]

@Chris very nice video again! What system are you using?
I use a SmartyCam connected to my Aim dash.

[ner88]

If you watch Chris's video you can see how far in advance the spun car was visable.

[ulfelder]

This wreck is yet another reason to have a radio and spotter if at all possible (thanks, Adam!). I learned of this wreck coming out of the bowl, with a full 20 seconds to think about what might be ahead and prepare.

[coutzen]

If you watch Chris's video you can see how far in advance the spun car was visable.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2760/5787147393_5a5f3836a9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63579501@N04/5787147393/)
Flagger and stopped car visible (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63579501@N04/5787147393/) by coutzen (http://www.flickr.com/people/63579501@N04/), on Flickr

[chewy8000]

The Golf is fixable, but it will take some work. And I am just looking at options. Don't know if I feel like re-building the Golf again, may want to look at an ITA or ITS, or even ITR to get in to. I love the battles that I have had with other ITB guys - great racing! But this may be the right time to try something else?

Let me know which direction you go and if you decide to sell the golf, I have a freind who just started builiding his 95' golf and this might speed things up for him and put some money in your pocket. :)

[lawtonglenn]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2760/5787147393_5a5f3836a9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63579501@N04/5787147393/)
Flagger and stopped car visible (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63579501@N04/5787147393/) by coutzen (http://www.flickr.com/people/63579501@N04/), on Flickr


...I saw a 'precautionary single yellow' at 10, then I saw nothing between 10 and 11,
I would have to assume the danger was gone and I would have amped back up to 100%...

so looking at this video grab, a 'precautionary single yellow' at 10 would have had you looking
for the waving yellow and the stranded car, which you would have seen before amping back to 100%.

but I think the real point is:


..The Volvo and the VW don't (seem to be aware of the yellow).

[NATW]

I was driving the Volvo and I can assure you I did not see the waving yellow or realize that his car was there until I almost collected him myself. I believe this is a serious problem (tunnel vision- concentration- stupidity- whatever you want to call it) I would love to have the ability to listen to flaggers with some sort of radio receiver in my helmet, so I would be more aware of problems like this.

It is interesting that when Tim got T-boned at the start of a race in Pocono a few years ago, most of the field raced all the way around until start/finish where the yellow was very obvious ( I was one of those idiots then too). I have video from that race and you must look away from where you are going to see the yellows until start/ finish where it is hanging out over the track.

Nat Wentworth
Volvo 142 ITB

[MMiskoe]

I'll comment on the flag station.

I was in the blue & silver Miata that went past while Blake was parked. I am quite certain there was no flag.

On Sunday Steve Ulfelder was practicing his parking skills in the same corner and again, there was no flag. Not a flag that was hard to see, there was no flag. I am sure of it.

They have changed that flag station and the concrete barrier is much higher than it used to be. It is probablly much safer too since it appears to have more mass than the pair of jersey barriers that it replaced. I would think that a simple platform that gives the workers another 18-24" of height would allow the flag to be much more visible. My thought is that the location is good, it really is close to your line of sight as you come out of 10, but with the barrier so tall its hard for the worker to wave the flag effectively.

I've been parked backwards on the run-off at that turn, its f'ing scary. I think Blake is glad he was at least aimed head on and it was not his drivers door that Tim hit.

Matt

[StephenB]

I think this corner station is very similar to Lime rock heading onto no-name straight. It is not directly in the line of sight and it kinda blends in with all the bleachers. Honestly look at that picture, yellow nascar paint on the walls that blend in with the flag that is directly in front them when viewed from the car and those bright aluminum stands. All very distracting. As a driver racing extremely tight to someone you probably don't look away from the direction your heading. (Before I get flamed I did not say we shouldn't, I just said we as racers don't always do this.)

I also bet if we had accidents in this corner all the time all of us as drivers would be more aware of that flag station. The reality is that it's not common to see a flag or a car stopped in that turn which may lead us to be less aware sometimes.

FYI, in this situation the yellow was in fact waving the entire time.

Stephen

[Matt M ITB]

Is it me or are the VW's wheels actually turning left at 10:49?? As Nat mentions above and can be clearly seen on the video, he just barely misses collecting Bob Baker himself. While I can't comment on the yellow flag debate, IMHO looks like the Tim was turning left but was already sliding out on the corner while trying to turn right as the contact happened. Doesn't make the damage fix itself but may explain why everyone else made it by and Tim couldn't.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'll comment on the flag station.

I was in the blue & silver Miata that went past while Blake was parked. I am quite certain there was no flag.

Matt

So we saw the flag when he spun, you can see the flag and the car in the screen shot.

You think they took the flag DOWN while he was there during those 30 seconds?

[Knestis]

I think this corner station is very similar to Lime rock heading onto no-name straight. It is not directly in the line of sight and it kinda blends in with all the bleachers. Honestly look at that picture, yellow nascar paint on the walls that blend in with the flag that is directly in front them when viewed from the car and those bright aluminum stands. All very distracting. As a driver racing extremely tight to someone you probably don't look away from the direction your heading. (Before I get flamed I did not say we shouldn't, I just said we as racers don't always do this.)

I also bet if we had accidents in this corner all the time all of us as drivers would be more aware of that flag station. The reality is that it's not common to see a flag or a car stopped in that turn which may lead us to be less aware sometimes.

FYI, in this situation the yellow was in fact waving the entire time.

Stephen

No skin in the game but yeah, that's a really difficult flag to see. Get the flagger up on a platform and put a black outline around the flag. In order to see motion, there's got to be some contrast, and it's motion that gets our attention.

K

[Greg Amy]

For flag stations to be effective, they need to be in the target line of sight of the driver. It's sweet and all to tell drivers to always make a concerted effort to look away from the road to recognize flag condition, but in reality that just doesn't happen.

As the driver leaves T9 the car is pushed far driver's left and the flag station for T10 is not visible behind the wall. As track-out finishes the the driver's gaze and attention shifts to straight ahead and slightly driver's right, to the turn-in point of that next corner, and away from the flag station on driver's left. That corner station does not become visible from behind the tire wall until the driver is pretty much entering that next corner (T11?); by that time the corner station is now directly abeam the driver. As the driver negotiates that corner his gaze turns only about 30 degrees left for the entry to T12 and the corner station is well past abeam left and fading away. Thus, unless the driver intentionally looks left to the station while going through the process of entering the corner (something that is not instinctual) or has his attention taken there by contrasting movement (as Kirk describes) then it's easy to miss flag status. A far better location for that flag station would be at the end of the Aarmco on the short straight, where the driver can easily determine flag status.

The same exact visual/psychological problem exists at the T2 flag station: driver's attention is slightly right to not hit the concrete wall, flag station is abeam to driver's left (or did we change that? I remember there was talk of it).

I've trained myself to look left at these stations each time I'm there; they've saved me more than a few times. But in the heat of the battle it's quite easy to miss those. So I don't automatically blame anyone when they miss those flags; they're in terrible, ineffectual locations.

My rule-of-thumb is that if you can't see the flag station for a reasonable amount of time within the narrow field-of-vision of the front windshield of an in-car video, then the driver can easily miss it.

GA

[JLawton]

The same exact visual/psychological problem exists at the T2 flag station: driver's attention is slightly right to not hit the concrete wall, flag station is abeam to driver's left (or did we change that? I remember there was talk of it).


GA

Yeah, they changed it last year?? Now it's in the middle of turn two on the right with a hole in the fence.

As Greg said, it's easy to arm chair quarterback this but the important aspect is to make it a learning experience.

I know the perfect spot for it would be drivers right, further up the track. Just as you are tracking out of 10 it would be right in your line of sight............ but then you have to put up protection for the workers (yes, I've been out in those weeds before)....... and then make it easily movable or get the NASCAR boy's panties in a bunch.

Tough situation. I'm glad no one was hurt. And it sucks that it took away from what looked like an awesome race. It did look fun!! Too bad ITR/ITS are dead........... ;)

[Jeremy Billiel]

Too bad ITR/ITS are dead........... ;)

You suck Lawton! I said ITS was dead and ITR was the place to be. That is evident by just how many people are jumping to ITR. :D

If you are going to quote me at least do it accurately! LOL :D

[benspeed]

Tim should definitely buy an ITR car :-) Maybe Blake too!

[lawtonglenn]

You suck Lawton! I said ITS was dead and ITR was the place to be. That is evident by just how many people are jumping to ITR. :D

If you are going to quote me at least do it accurately! LOL :D


Jeremy...don't be getting your "Lawtons" mixed up...I'm
done giving you sh1t for your foot in mouth, but if it is Jeff
you are lambasting, go for it! (Jeff and I are unrelated)

:happy204:

[Jeremy Billiel]

Jeremy...don't be getting your "Lawtons" mixed up...I'm
done giving you sh1t for your foot in mouth, but if it is Jeff
you are lambasting, go for it! (Jeff and I are unrelated)

:happy204:

Glenn - Yes my comment was directed at Mr. Jeff Lawton :happy204:

[TimM ITB]

Well, I certainly wish that the weekend had ended differerntly. And, first of all........my apologies to Bob Blake, and to the rest of race group 6 on Saturday (for shortening your race). Under the heading of "NO excuses" - I take the blame for the incident. All me.

I can tell you this, I have no doubt that there was a yellow out (we have great volunteers who do a friggin great job! NO issue with whether the flag was out or not on my part), but I absolutely did not see it (more to follow on that). I was catching back up to Nat (white Volvo) and was hot on his bumper. When we came through T11, my eyes were on my turn in, Nat's bumper, and then looking up to my track out point. As we went into and just through T11, I saw Nat do a little "wiggle" as he was pulling hard left. I actually thought he had messed up and was getting loose - and my next thought was "what a great time to put my foot to the floor and get a run as we were coming up to T12 and the front straight". As I came through T11 I actually was allowing the car to track out just a bit farther than normal, giving it a bit more throttle than normal, thinking that Nat was having a handling issue. And Nat kept left........and then there was Bob. I don't think I actually got my foot to the brake before I hit him. What a mess.

Afterwards, I took the time to talk to a few racers (Matt Miskoe, Nat, Tim Duggan, and couple of others) to see if they saw the yellow - and to a man, they did not. So, I thought about it, and decided to find Bob Introne Sunday morning. If this happened to me - it could happen to someone else. Bob was great. He and I took a ride in his golf cart out to the flag station near T11 and reviewed what happened.

And at that point, I could actually see how this could happen again. The flag station is after T11, and considerably to the left of the driver's field of vision. I know that as I turn through T11, I am then looking up, almost towards NASCAR Turn 4......Not further left (inside) towards my "A" pillar (and that is where the flag station is). I am "busy" figuring out how much throttle and steering input to give as I slide out to the "bump" and the "hole" as you come to T12. My incident was adjacent to the flag station. My belief is that if the flag station is not within the driver's NATURALLY directed field of vision, particularly at a corner like this where there is a lot going on (hard braking, shifting, getting the corner just right to set up the oncoming straightaway), then we have a potential problem.

In my conversation with Bob, several options were discussed: moving the flag station across the track (too dangerous for the flaggers); move the flag station "up" the track towards T10 (difficult to do with the changes to the track itself and the barriers), having the flaggers at T10 put out a flag if there is a flag at T11 (perhaps confusing to racers?). The only one that made any sense was the last one - and Bob said that he would bring it up to the Flagging & Com Steward. I sure hope that he did.

In any event, again - my sincere apology to Bob Blake. I understand that it was a new car - that really sucks. I feel like crap about it. I am just truly glad that it was the nose of your car and not your driver's door. At least cars can be re-built.

[MMiskoe]

Tim - did you get to walk up to the barrier that the flaggers stand behind? I have the sense that it is much taller than it used to be. I would think that the simplest change to make in the location of the flaggers is to give them a table to stand on so they are taller.

It is unsettleing to me that on Sunday I am quite sure there was no flag there for Steve U because after Saturday's trouble I was looking more closely.

BTW Tm, Ben has a good point, the ITA group has a decent car count, if you were to buy something new, stick w/ the ITS/R/B group. (sorry Jeff)

Matt

[LMcB]

In my conversation with Bob, several options were discussed: moving the flag station across the track (too dangerous for the flaggers); move the flag station "up" the track towards T10 (difficult to do with the changes to the track itself and the barriers), having the flaggers at T10 put out a flag if there is a flag at T11 (perhaps confusing to racers?). The only one that made any sense was the last one - and Bob said that he would bring it up to the Flagging & Com Steward. I sure hope that he did.

Andy is absolutely correct regarding why a backup yellow at the previous station is almost never a good idea. In the occasional situation where an incident occurs directly in front of a flag station, then a backup yellow at the previous station is usually a good idea, but in general it is not, for the reasons Andy stated. Flags should have ONE meaning to the drivers, not multiple meanings. You don’t need to be going through a checklist of all the possible meanings of a flag while you are racing. A standing yellow flag means that there is an incident between that flag and the next flag station which is OFF THE RACING SURFACE. Period. How would a standing yellow at Station 10 have prepared you for a car stopped IN THE CENTER OF THE TRACK AFTER Station 11?

If you show a backup yellow at Station 10 in order to ensure that the drivers see it, do you do this for every waving yellow at Station 11? If not, then which ones? That is, does Station 10 then become a mirror for Station 11’s flags? What about surface flag conditions? What about blue flags? Should Station 11 become just an outpost (responding) station only? I am not endorsing any of these, just trying to show that the solution to the problem is not necessarily straightforward.

Another way to correct this would be to go to FIA flagging rules, which would mean no passing between the yellow flag and the waving green flag at the next clear station. This would permit a backup standing yellow at Station 10 followed by a waving yellow at Station 11 followed by a waving green at S/F. Of course the downside is the no-passing zone is lengthened, and at some stations/tracks this can be very significant. (BTW, FIA flagging rules would also take care of the situation where there are two independent incidents at the same sector, something which is impossible to cover with current SCCA flagging rules.)

There are lots of flag stations at lots of tracks which are less than ideal for drivers to see. The drivers don’t like them and the flaggers don’t like them either. Only rarely are they going to get changed. As flaggers, we do everything we can to make sure you see the flags, but moving to a different location or physically changing the flags are not things we can do.

[JLawton]

Leigh,

I think we all appreciate the input from a flagers view. It does help us understand better.

For a standing yellow at 10, it would get me to be prepared for an incident. I'd be paying a little more attention to my surroundings instead of the bumper in front of me or the one in back of me. I won't be as concerned about being passed and WOULD slow down. At that point I would probably be looking more up the track to find the incident which would get me looking more towards that next flag station. Where the flag station is now, you could technically race all the way to the apex of 11...............

Although I hate to admit this, if there was no flag at 10 you can bet that if I was in a heated battle and saw the incident, and the other guy slowed I would be going hard to get to 11 before him........ Just reality............. Like Tim said, as racers we are dealing with a ton of inputs. It takes a lot of concentration to push a car to 10/10ths without going to 11/10ths. And on top of that, be worried about the guy behind you tapping on your bumper!!


Tim, ITA is where all the cool guys are............... Just sayin'.............. :D (shhhhhhh, that's why Matt is selling his ITS car...........)

[nlevine]

Just leave the RR wheel speed sensor connected. Perfectly legal to disconnect only three, and this won't confuse the ECU. Works fine on my '99, stock ECU w/custom flash (and the flash has nothing to do with the brakes.)

The RR speed sensor only took me 2 months to figure out after I put my Z3 into ITA (formerly an SSB car with all it's sensors in place). I recall writing a letter to the CRB to get the wording changed in the ITCS from "remove all wheel speed sensors" to "remove at least three.." when disabling ABS.

[gran racing]

Says the guy whose leaving ITA Jeffy. :)

[JLawton]

Says the guy whose leaving ITA Jeffy. :)

I'm gonna go race with the really, REALLY cool guys................ in National........... 'cause we all know they are better drivers.............. and cooler............ :)

[Andy Bettencourt]

I like Tim's approach to a potential problem and solution. It's clear he missed the yellow but the question now is simple, does the current configuration of that station provide drivers enough opportunity to see the warnings.

[coutzen]

The RR speed sensor only took me 2 months to figure out after I put my Z3 into ITA (formerly an SSB car with all it's sensors in place). I recall writing a letter to the CRB to get the wording changed in the ITCS from "remove all wheel speed sensors" to "remove at least three.." when disabling ABS.
We totally missed this when preparing my car. I just pulling fuse 10 to disable the TC and ABS. I will now remove three wheel speed sensors leaving the right rear connected. I guess you can not use the factory ABS either.

[nlevine]

We totally missed this when preparing my car. I just pulling fuse 10 to disable the TC and ABS. I will now remove three wheel speed sensors leaving the right rear connected. I guess you can not use the factory ABS either.

The ECU needs to see SOME wheel speed data or it gets confused and shuts things down. I removed the ABS pump as well (better pedal feel IMO), but left all fuses, etc. intact.

The clue I had about speed sensors was that it was one mod I made (required per the ITCS at the time) and the car kept going into severe rev-limiting mode. I knew the car ran fine as an SSB car with all the sensors installed, so I knew it was something I did. I confirmed the need for one sensor with Mike Morris at Schneller who does a lot of BMW engine swaps and knows his way around BMW ECU requirements..

[Dan Hoffman]

Hello all,
I am new to this forum. Let me introduce myself if you do not know me. My name is Dan Hoffman. I’m Flagging & Communications Co-Chief for NER. The other Co-Chief is Mike Ostrander. I am happy that these postings were brought to my attention. It is very educational and could lead to changes in how F&C is conducted. I was in the control tower at the time of this incident. Unfortunately, due to low flagger turnout, I was trying to both log and man the radio at the same time so logging slipped when the do-do hit the fan. This is my perspective. I hope it doesn’t come off as being too defensive because I do want to raise the skills, safety, and enjoyment for all. I am in a position to make changes if the many parties involved can agree.
The flag station was staffed with experienced flaggers. The waving yellow flags came out instantly (and I’m confident that they stayed out but have no proof). Flaggers are taught to call for a back-up flag at the preceding station if the incident is directly in front of their station. This was down stream from the station. In Chris’s still image it appears to me that if the drivers were looking ahead and deliberately looking for the flag station that they would have had ample time to make adjustments. I do find it interesting that Joe in the red Porsche clearly adjusted his driving to the situation. When Joe is not driving he is flagging for us. He is obviously keenly aware of the flaggers. As I remember it, we went full-course yellow when we put an additional ambulance and tow truck on course and checkered the race early when it became evident the cleanup was going to take longer than the remaining race time.
I could, if the general population agrees, ask station 10 to automatically go standing yellow when station 11 is waving. I’m not sure if drivers want that. We are sometimes criticized for over-flagging. We use local-yellows to maintain as much racing time as possible. The “straight” between 10 and 11 is a prime passing zone. Do drivers really want to eliminate that area from racing for simple spin-and-continues in 11?
I can’t comment about 10 pulling in their white flag before the emergency vehicles stopping. I will reinforce the importance of white flagging at our next flag meeting.
Station 11 was moved back some when NHMS put in the helipad. I’m guessing about 20 additional feet from the pavement. We talked about other location options for station 11 Sunday night (yes, with Bob Introne) and we will consider all suggestions. We must, however, be behind a solid barrier. I am against putting flaggers on another platform. We just resolved that issue on station 3. When a car comes into station, and they do, the flaggers must either run for cover or duck behind the barrier. The platform at station 3 did not allow for either option. Happily, if you noticed, NHMS put additional “higher” barriers if front of station 3 to protect the flaggers. There have been several incidences where cars have crashed directly at our feet. If you think being turned around facing traffic in turn 11 is “f’ing scary", having cars come into station is the equivalent of standing on Bob’s hood at the time of incident!
We are all subject to be fallible. I look forward to constructive comments.
If you want to talk to me in person at the track, I’m the one with the florescent green hat.
Dan
P.S. I couldn’t help but notice the middle-of-the-dash location of Chris’ Emergency shut-off. Convenient for the driver, but how is a flagger supposed to find it when it’s needed most: when the cockpit is full of smoke?

[Andy Bettencourt]

So Dan, thanks for coming on here. I am positive given all the data that there were flags flying at T11.

The issue is that with the adjustment to the position of the station and the angle of driver 'attack' into T11, is this station suitable for the drivers to see a flag?

The Porsche sees it because he is leading a group and can see the car in his way. Tim in the VW was chasing the Volvo. He was focused. He was not only at a bad angle (that is compounded now with new location) but also visually challeged due to the other car being in front of him.

No doubt he didn't see the flag and was fixated on the car in front - all his bad...but we need stations we can 'notice', not have to 'look for' if I can offer up a grey but very distinct difference. Which is the new T11 flagger station?

It is also clear to me that NER is aware there may be an issue and is interested in investigating it more.

[Dan Hoffman]

Andy,
I'm not sure what you mean by "Which is the new T11 flagger station?" We now flag from inside the helipad which is approximately where the old station was. A bit, however, further away from the track surface. I do agree the stations should be where they will be "noticed" rather than "looked for". Our placement choices are limited. Track management receives input from all the clubs that use the track. If we can come to a consensus as to where the station should be and if we can convince track management to put a Jersey Barrier there for us then we will do so.

[JLawton]

Dan,
I'll second Andy on his appreciation for coming on and giving your perspective. As I said in a previous comment, it's much better to learn from a situation like this than to to sit and argue about whose fault it was. This is good stuff. And you can believe that I will be paying a "little" more attention to that flag station in the future!! :)

[Marianne]

One of the problems of being "visible" for oncoming cars is that not only are you visible you are also in a targe zone. Think of station 6 - straight ahead but boy are you a target!. Station 3 has a similar issue. I actually thought mving towards 10 wold be good but then if the do-do hits the fan you don't have much choice to get out of the way. And if you move the station towards 10 then you lose the ability to sort of see the beginning of the straight. I guess there is no easy solution. Unfortunately we can't get in a car and see your view. Drivers - come out some time to any station and see what our view is. Maybe what is needed is a perspective of a driver out on the station.

Marianne

[TimM ITB]

Hey all;

outstanding posts - truly! This is what differentiates us as a member driven organization - a "club". really impressive IMHO.

so, I WILL come out and give a driver's perspective! I don't want this to happen again! Dan, Marianne, I am IN. Please email at your convenience, and let's set up a date and tiem (next race at NHMS?? I won't be racing!!! :( - damn it!) and i will do my best to impart what a driver is thinking /seeing / doing as T11 is approaching and happening.

really good - I am more impressed than ever with our organization.

Dan and Marianne - please email me at [email protected].

thanks,

Tim M.

[rthiele]

+1!

I am deeply impressed about the constructive dialogue and active participation from everyone, that's how it should be - way to go SCCA!

[JLawton]

I won't be racing!!! :( - damn it!) Tim M.

I know how you can race TOMORROW! ;)

[Mike O.]

My name is Mike Ostrander and I am the other Co-Chief of F&C. I don't have much to add to the already detailed discussion other that to re-emphasize some of the key points from an F&C perspective. The position of the flag stations is determined by 3basic parameters- driver visibility, worker safety and track infrastructure. We have had some success working with track management to implement changes to flag stations (notably 3 and 6); we are happy to discuss any issues with the drivers which relate to F&C and take them up with track management where appropriate.

Mike

[CRallo]

Dan,
I'll second Andy on his appreciation for coming on and giving your perspective. As I said in a previous comment, it's much better to learn from a situation like this than to to sit and argue about whose fault it was. This is good stuff. And you can believe that I will be paying a "little" more attention to that flag station in the future!! :)

+5!


In regards to the topic at hand:

I strongly believe in a standing yellow before a waving yellow! So what if you lose a passing zone! A standing yellow tells you to ease up a bit and check your surroundings... Whether its a car off the track or a waving yellow at the next station, you know to look for it. This also very simple and easy to implement.

Very reasonable scanners exist that can be tuned to the flagger network. I'd already planned to buy one, but it just got moved up my want list!

We as drivers also need to remember to keep our eyes up, be aware, drive our own line, etc. Part of this is paying attn on the pace lap and looking at all the waving flags. They are not just saying hi, nor are they bored, they are showing us where they are! We HAVE to make a habit of glancing at the station every time we drive by! I follow a basic routine which of course varies, but here is an example: "Track out, check the flag station, check your mirrors, check your gauges, take a deep breath, relax your hands(one at a time), check your mirrors, check the (next) flag station, brake, downshift, turn in..." And if you have to talk to yourself, do it! :D

[NATW]

I agree that this discussion is very good and I appreciate the good job our flaggers do. I like the idea of a scanner to listen to the flagging communications, because I know there are times when I just don't see the flag stations.

What frequencies do the flaggers use and how basic can a scanner be and still receive this signal?

Nat Wentworth
Volvo 142 ITB

[dickita15]

I am not a fan of automatic back up flags from my experience as a driver or a flagger. Honestly most of the time they have no effect as the incident changes in the 10 of 15 seconds from the time I see the first flag to the time a pass the incident.
I have run an F&C scanner in the car and it is not the end all you would think. Flag stations do not call flag conditions real time, no reason to, and most of the information on the net is of little value. It is not a negative, just not as useful as one might think.

[SPiFF]

ouch. Watching him try and re-fire the car was too painful knowing what was coming. :(

[Matt Rowe]

I am not a fan of automatic back up flags from my experience as a driver or a flagger. Honestly most of the time they have no effect as the incident changes in the 10 of 15 seconds from the time I see the first flag to the time a pass the incident.
I have run an F&C scanner in the car and it is not the end all you would think. Flag stations do not call flag conditions real time, no reason to, and most of the information on the net is of little value. It is not a negative, just not as useful as one might think.

+1 on both of these comments.

As mentioned when I see a standing yellow I know it means a stationary car that I do not need to take action to avoid, provided it doesn't move. Adding a 2nd meaning is more likely to add confusion. I know if I had seen a standing at 10 in this case I would be scanning for a car to make sure it does not pop back on in front of me. That would actually distract me from looking at the next flag station.

[TimM ITB]

quick note - just wanted to report that Dan and Marianne have invited me to come to NHMS for the July Drivers School and race weekend to give a "driver's point of view" on the flag stations, their positions, what the driver "sees", etc so that if there needs to be any upgrades or re-positioning, at least they will have input from the "driver's viewpoint". Outstanding! I have a previous committment that I am trying to re-arrange so that I can make it - at the very least for part of the weekend.

THANKS TO DAN & MARIANNE!!!

What a cool organization that we have here. Not always perfect, but a great group to be with.

Tim M.

[JLawton]

Hmmmmm. So they picked YOU to give them a drivers perspective on seeing the flag stations?? :lol:


Kidding, KIDDING!!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

quick note - just wanted to report that Dan and Marianne have invited me to come to NHMS for the July Drivers School and race weekend to give a "driver's point of view" on the flag stations, their positions, what the driver "sees", etc so that if there needs to be any upgrades or re-positioning, at least they will have input from the "driver's viewpoint". Outstanding! I have a previous committment that I am trying to re-arrange so that I can make it - at the very least for part of the weekend.

THANKS TO DAN & MARIANNE!!!

What a cool organization that we have here. Not always perfect, but a great group to be with.

Tim M.

I am sure we could arrange something like we did with worker rides with 2 cars so they can see at speed what is going on.

[JLawton]

I am sure we could arrange something like we did with worker rides with 2 cars so they can see at speed what is going on.


Hmmmmmmm. I hope to have my new car by then, which does have a passenger seat, if you need drivers for that.

[Marianne]

Andy - i really liked the worker rides you did a couple of years ago. It did get lots of flaggers talking about how difficult it is to pick out stations. Tim volunteered his help at the races but the invitation is open to all drivers. Even if you can only come out for a few sessions. just no red or yellow clothing please! 8-P

Marianne

[gran racing]

but the invitation is open to all drivers.

Are you SURE you don't want a list of exceptions to that invitation? LOL!!!

[itracer]

I wanted to update everyone that was interested in this thread as to some positive changes that have happened as a result of the unfortunate incident at Turn 11 in this race on Memorial Day weekend:

First of all, as he promised earlier in this thread, Tim did come up to the track when he was not driving and walked the track with myself, the chief of F&C, and Maryanne (NER flagger and poster on this site). After looking at many options in the corner, it was determined that putting a strobe light at the end of the short shoot between Turn 10 & the corner station might help with visibility. Tim offered to pay for and provide a strobe and all necessary hardware that would be operated from station 11 (about 100’ away) if the region was willing to give it a TRY.

This past weekend I was Chief Steward for the Race Against Leukemia at NHMS. Tim came up Friday night with the light, pole, switch, cable, and an assortment of clamps to attach the light to the Armco.

During the 1st practice and qualifying sessions the light was illuminated for the first lap and the cool down lap to let the drivers see it in action. It was mentioned again during the driver’s meeting after each of those sessions.

The light was used for the rest of the weekend and I am VERY happy to report that it prevented what could have been an even worse accident than the Memorial Day weekend:

The driver of a D Sports Racer in the formula fast group reported to one of our workers that the light saved him from a head on (full speed) collision with a formula car. He felt that he would have been committed to the corner well before he saw the station had he not seen the light before entering the corner and a collision would have be unavoidable.

As Chief Steward this past weekend, I was extremely pleased that this new light prevented and incident that would have made for a very bad experience and seriously injured at least two drivers.

I have sent Tim a personal email, but I think it is important for other IT racers know that we are truly a group that looks out for our fellow competitors, and Tim is no exception. I look forward to racing with him again next year when I have my ITB Golf finished.

Jason Benagh
Chief Steward
Race Against Leukemia - NHMS
New England Region

[lateapex911]

You know, all too often we are quick to point out deficiencies in people, places, events and situations...and i am certainly guilty..maybe even a poster child for that.....
But, it's awesome to be able to chat about events and people that are exceptional..in a good way.
Thanks for the update Jason! And Tim, I've always thought you were a stand up guy, but man, you really stepped up this time. And to the rest of the folks involved, great job. I appreciate when somebody goes out of their way when they are volunteering to make things better for all involved.

This solution sounds like a vast improvement, and benefits not just the drivers, but the entire organization.

Thanks to all, esp to Mr Mullin who was generous with his time and creativity and $$.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jason and Tim - OUTSTANDING!

[JeffYoung]

Way cool. Good job guys.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I wish I would have known it was there, I would have asked the corner workers to turn it on during the last couple of 'at speed' rides we did at lunch to check it out.

[Greg Amy]

I wish I would have known it was there...
I got to see it during the Gyro lap... ;)

[JLawton]

That's awesome. Thank you Tim!!!

I have to say that it seems that NER is becoming more and more flexible and willing to look at and try new things to improve the racing. A testament to the leadership.

[StephenB]

That's awesome. Thank you Tim!!!

I have to say that it seems that NER is becoming more and more flexible and willing to look at and try new things to improve the racing. A testament to the leadership.

Totally agree! I love NER. :)

Pretty cool idea to use the strobe!

Stephen

[Marianne]

I am happy to hear it did what it was set up for - prevent an accident. Way cool and Tim was so good and enthusiastic the whole time. Thanks a million Tim!
Marianne