"still-born" rally project into IT car?

[mike.rodriguez]

Greetings all.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5303/5615255698_423ea1cbab.jpg

I picked up an '85 GTi last summer from a friend. It was originally supposed to be a stage rally car but was never log booked when the cage was welded in.
Unfortunately, it's not legal for NASA or Rally America events because the tubing is too small. I *think* it will be legal for SCCA club racing with some additions to the cage. Tubing size is 1.6" x 0.095 DOM.

I'm hoping guys can help me determine if it's feasible to make this car legal for IT road racing. For sure, the car needs a harness bar and a dash bar. I'm also planning on removing the current seating set up and installing my Sparco EVO2's (I want two seats in there for track days)

Pics are on my Flickr account. I can't post up the link until I've got more posts.

The one thing that I'm concerned about is the legality of the A-pillar/sill design.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5263/5614655553_2f47bf69e8.jpg

Last thing (for now)...is there a scrutineer in the Metro Detroit area I can take the car to so it can get a once over before cage improvements are made? I'm located in Dearborn.

thanks.

-mike

[Knestis]

There's a pretty good chance that the cage is tied into the tub in too many places - typically the A- and B-pillars. I fact, I think I can see a big tab on the passenger's side A-pillar that is enough to make it illegal.

PM me the link to your pics and I'll post it.

K

[mike.rodriguez]

There's a pretty good chance that the cage is tied into the tub in too many places - typically the A- and B-pillars. I fact, I think I can see a big tab on the passenger's side A-pillar that is enough to make it illegal.

PM me the link to your pics and I'll post it.

K
Sent you the link. Thanks. :023:
I'm assuming that I could cut out those offending plates to comply with the rules?

[pitbull113]

Scary thread title :o

[Z3_GoCar]

Welcome..

Harness bar is neccessary, the dash bar is not a required element. Since you're getting a new log book, you'd need to follow the current rules for production class cages, not one of the appendices. You can download the GCR Pdf here:
http://cms.scca.com/documents/2011%20Tech/2011%20GCR-printed%20version.pdf

You'll also need to know what weight you're cars classed to find the minimum tube diameter and thickness. Since 1.5x.120 is good for cars over 2700lbs, I'll say there's a good chance it's above the minimum.

[Chip42]

1.50 x 0.095 is good for the VW in ITB, assuming the cage design is acceptable. if it is not, GTL, STL, STU, and FP are also options with that car.

[joeg]

Hope the shell is not "seam welded".

Cage can be dealt with.

[924Guy]

We gonna see you at school in a coupla weeks?

Don't forget, all you need for school is a safe car - that'll pass the safety requirements for some class. Other legality issues can be addressed later.

Childs can hook you up with the harness bar; he does excellent work, did the door bars on my ITB car, lovely stuff. And, of course, he's intimately familiar with the rulebook, so can definitely provide advice as needed for the cage and anything else.

[924Guy]

Some more thoughts after looking at the pic set...

You'll need a back brace for the seat; this can be off the harness bar once it's installed, not a big deal. They can be bought online, but since you'll have the cage in for work, it's probably cheaper to rig one up then.

You'll need tabs welded on to the cage or some such similar attachment point for the lap belts, unless you plan on using the stock 3-pt belt attachment point? Shoulder belts will readily loop around the harness bar.

Now that I look at it, I'm not sure I see a diagonal in the main hoop? That would be necessary, at least on diagonal - would be a natural to do at the same time as the harness bar, as those usually are attached to same.

Looks like you need a window net, you probably already know that. Worth thinking about a center (RH side) net as well, for safety, though they're not required.

Battery install: for IT cars, must be in the stock location. I see yours is trying to have it in the passenger compartment. Even for classes that allow this, it must be in a properly sealed box as I recall.

There's also probably plenty of bars that, for an IT car, can be removed. That center bar on the roof pretty much does nothing, and there's a bunch of extra bars in the back as well...

[Knestis]

Here's the link to the pics...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10468678@N03/sets/72157624566139615/

I'm worried that you are going to have a lot of trouble unsticking the extra mounting points to be IT legal - two major tube mounting points on the rear strut towers, tab at the tunnel behind the seats, but particularly that sill bar...

K

[joeg]

Kirk's point on the rear towers is well taken, but the solution is to bend a plate and tie the plates together such as they constitute a "single" mounting plate within the 144 square inch rules for all tubes on the tower.

You would cut out those diagonals going from the Main hoop to the center hump on the floor and relace them with a single bar spanning the main hoop--level side to side.

I hope the sill bars are not stitched to the rockers along their length. If they are not, you can fab a box in the floor-B-Pillar area where the tubes join (on each side), and the box when welded in and to the tubes will be your mounting point. If they are stitched, you will have to break the stitches.

A bit of work, but that is a stout looking cage.

[mike.rodriguez]

1.50 x 0.095 is good for the VW in ITB, assuming the cage design is acceptable. if it is not, GTL, STL, STU, and FP are also options with that car.
Honestly, I don't care where the car lands class wise. It's stock with the exception of a Techtonics street cam and adjustable cam gear. I just want to fulfill a life dream of wheel to wheel racing.


Hope the shell is not "seam welded".

Cage can be dealt with.
Shell is not seam welded.


We gonna see you at school in a coupla weeks?

Don't forget, all you need for school is a safe car - that'll pass the safety requirements for some class. Other legality issues can be addressed later.

Childs can hook you up with the harness bar; he does excellent work, did the door bars on my ITB car, lovely stuff. And, of course, he's intimately familiar with the rulebook, so can definitely provide advice as needed for the cage and anything else.
Unfortunately, I'll be out in Delaware the weekend of the school with family.

My tentative plan is that if I can get the cage legal for any type of road racing (IT, GTU, GTL, ABCDEFG) I'll run it in 2012 and use 2011 as a year for sorting out the car and getting it to where I want it.

I am planning on going to watch the first race at WH and will be doing a couple OTD event this season.

Who is this Childs character and how can I meet him to have him look over the car? :023:

[mike.rodriguez]

Some more thoughts after looking at the pic set...

You'll need a back brace for the seat; this can be off the harness bar once it's installed, not a big deal. They can be bought online, but since you'll have the cage in for work, it's probably cheaper to rig one up then.

You'll need tabs welded on to the cage or some such similar attachment point for the lap belts, unless you plan on using the stock 3-pt belt attachment point? Shoulder belts will readily loop around the harness bar.

Now that I look at it, I'm not sure I see a diagonal in the main hoop? That would be necessary, at least on diagonal - would be a natural to do at the same time as the harness bar, as those usually are attached to same.

Looks like you need a window net, you probably already know that. Worth thinking about a center (RH side) net as well, for safety, though they're not required.

Battery install: for IT cars, must be in the stock location. I see yours is trying to have it in the passenger compartment. Even for classes that allow this, it must be in a properly sealed box as I recall.

There's also probably plenty of bars that, for an IT car, can be removed. That center bar on the roof pretty much does nothing, and there's a bunch of extra bars in the back as well...

Seat back brace - easy and something I've thought about.

Can I use readily available threaded eyelets with backing plates welded to the shell for lap belt attachment points?

The diagonal can be fitted pretty easily. My friend is a very experienced welder/fabricator (builds his own rally cars) and we'll be doing most of the cage re-work at his place. That will be something fitted at the time the harness bar goes in.

Window net & RH net - easy and already planning on doing that sort of stuff.

Battery location - can/will be changed if needed. It was where the previous owner put it.

---
Thanks for all the input so far. This forum is great so far. No stupid kids (or uninformed adults) chiming in like some of the other car forums I'm on.

Please keep the suggestions/critiques/concerns coming. :023:

[924Guy]

Childs aka Chris Childs - runs a local race shop, Angry Sheep. That said, if you have a good welder available to do the work for you...

Yeah, I'd expect you put the diagonal in first, then the harness bar. The GCR is your friend; it describes all the required bars. I'd be ditching every other bar not listed as required, for weight, unless a need can be proven for that chassis (like tying together the rear strut towers).

Sounds like, with a bit of retrofitting, you can turn this into a solid ITB car - I think that's where it'd fall? ITB is a VERY strong class at Waterford; one of the biggest turnouts, with regularly 8-10 cars/weekend. We've won the championship the last 3 years running. Feel free to stop by and say hi; just look for the 924's.

Re: seat back brace - just make sure you have a nice plate to spread the load across the back of the seat. Remember it doesn't even actually have to be attached to the seat, just there to support a rear-impact load.

Seat Belt tabs: what you describe would work, but far safer and in fact simpler is to weld two tabs to the cage, next to the seat supports, with holes to accept the typical bolt-in lap belt.

Thankfully, all the stuff you're describing is stuff that doesn't likely even need to be addressed for an OTD; in fact, you can get the car running and driveable on the street, debug it there and at the OTD's, then be ready for spring.

Other than potential missing parts, the only real tech concern for legality should be that cam and gear - will have to revert to stock for IT. That still should be a great car... just be sure to take the exhaust all the way out from under the floorboards... ;)
http://www.clutchpics.com/Motorsports/Waterford-Hills-Raceway-2009/WHRW-Race-5-1/9879271_P2btL#672702050_5aETM

[Dano77]

in the picture of the sill and A pillar attachment,is the down tube welded to the sill tube. Look close as it appear that the door bar is welded to both the sill bar and down tube but the down tube is not attached/welded at all.

Just an observation. It might be fixed already.

[Chip42]

mike,

your rear cage braces have a full "X" so you do not NEED a diagonal in the main hoop, (GCR, 9.1.4.B.2.a) though it is certainly something to think about, particularly as you look for mounting points for the shoulder belts and RH net.

regarding cage legality for classes - there are some obvious things like the tabs welded between the cage and chassis at points outside of the IT-allowed 8 attachment points + seat mountings (2 front down tubes, 2 main hoop feet, 2 rear main hoop braces, 2 int-intrusion bars in the footwells - seat mounts are open so long as they are for the seat, yours look OK). the door sil bar is a bit worisome for easy conversion to IT legality. luckily, the car will fit into STL and should be tolerable there. very likely you can keep your cam, too (I didn't look for the specs, but 0.425" lift max in STL, in IT it must be stock). certainly an easy button. and there are a lot of VW options if you want to up the power down the road that would be legal there as well. your car would be ~2300 lbs in STL so pick and choose your cage mods wisely to stay safe and be near min weight. you can put your battery wherever you want in any class but IT.

you do not NEED a seat back brace if that seat is homologated to FIA 8855-1999, which it proboboly is from the look of it, and it is bolted to a rigid structure, not sliders.

oh, and welcome, have fun!

on edit - also, the recomended Angry sheep / Chris Childs would be a good person to discuss the STL option with - he's on the STAC which recomends rules for that class

[mike.rodriguez]

in the picture of the sill and A pillar attachment,is the down tube welded to the sill tube. Look close as it appear that the door bar is welded to both the sill bar and down tube but the down tube is not attached/welded at all.

Just an observation. It might be fixed already.
Good eye...I never noticed that. There are little things on the cage that aren't quite finished. Not sure why the cage builder did stuff like this but it happened. It'll be welded up fully soon enough.


mike,

your rear cage braces have a full "X" so you do not NEED a diagonal in the main hoop, (GCR, 9.1.4.B.2.a) though it is certainly something to think about, particularly as you look for mounting points for the shoulder belts and RH net.

regarding cage legality for classes - there are some obvious things like the tabs welded between the cage and chassis at points outside of the IT-allowed 8 attachment points + seat mountings (2 front down tubes, 2 main hoop feet, 2 rear main hoop braces, 2 int-intrusion bars in the footwells - seat mounts are open so long as they are for the seat, yours look OK). the door sil bar is a bit worisome for easy conversion to IT legality. luckily, the car will fit into STL and should be tolerable there. very likely you can keep your cam, too (I didn't look for the specs, but 0.425" lift max in STL, in IT it must be stock). certainly an easy button. and there are a lot of VW options if you want to up the power down the road that would be legal there as well. your car would be ~2300 lbs in STL so pick and choose your cage mods wisely to stay safe and be near min weight. you can put your battery wherever you want in any class but IT.

you do not NEED a seat back brace if that seat is homologated to FIA 8855-1999, which it proboboly is from the look of it, and it is bolted to a rigid structure, not sliders.

oh, and welcome, have fun!

on edit - also, the recomended Angry sheep / Chris Childs would be a good person to discuss the STL option with - he's on the STAC which recomends rules for that class
I'll look into the STL class instead of IT. I'd like to keep the cam and more power is always fun. :023:

I'll be putting in a diagonal for the reasons you mention.

Seat is being changed out for a Sparco EVO2 and will still be bolted to a rigid structure.

I think once the car comes back from my friends' workshop (seat work/wheel bearing replacement) I'll try to set up something with Chris/Angry Sheep to bring it up to him and have him help me figure out legal cage mods.

[924Guy]

I'll look into the STL class instead of IT. I'd like to keep the cam and more power is always fun. :023:

I don't recommend that; locally, there's 5-10 times as much competition in ITB than STL.

Faster isn't fun. More competition is.

Come up to the track and watch some of our races before you commit. :cavallo:

[mike.rodriguez]

I don't recommend that; locally, there's 5-10 times as much competition in ITB than STL.

Faster isn't fun. More competition is.

Come up to the track and watch some of our races before you commit. :cavallo:

Very true.

I'll be up there for the first race day for sure.

[924Guy]

you do not NEED a seat back brace if that seat is homologated to FIA 8855-1999, which it proboboly is from the look of it, and it is bolted to a rigid structure, not sliders.


Good point, but isn't there also a lifetime requirement on these, like a brace is require once they're 5 yrs old or something?

[Chip42]

Good point, but isn't there also a lifetime requirement on these, like a brace is require once they're 5 yrs old or something?

according to FIA, yes. (well, it's expired, and no longer homologated unless recertified) PCA and some other orgs DO enforce the age rules by forcing the addition of a back brace or whatever as they require for non FIA seats. In SCCA this is not enforced, but we have goofy mounitng rules that change our acceptance fo the homologation. I have significant issues with the seat rules.

[mike.rodriguez]

I figure a seat brace is cheap insurance along with a HANS device. :)

[Chip42]

I figure a seat brace is cheap insurance along with a HANS device. :)

not to :dead_horse:, but you'll find plenty of disagreement about that here.

[mike.rodriguez]

not to :dead_horse:, but you'll find plenty of disagreement about that here.

They're not building/racing my GTi. :)

[924Guy]

Not to dispute what Chip says, but I can say that Waterford does still monitor that rule, so if you're expecting to run it there, you will need to plan that.

Of course, it doesn't need to be bolted to the seatback, and can take the form of u-clamps for adjustment, which can conveniently be set up to telescope if needed...

[mike.rodriguez]

Not to dispute what Chip says, but I can say that Waterford does still monitor that rule, so if you're expecting to run it there, you will need to plan that.

Of course, it doesn't need to be bolted to the seatback, and can take the form of u-clamps for adjustment, which can conveniently be set up to telescope if needed...

I'm planning on running Waterford so it's a necessary item.

[JIgou]

I'm actually kind of OK with the seat back brace that showed up in our new car, in a "well, I suppose that's about as good as it gets if you have to run one" kind of way:
http://www.ogracing.com/catalog/2-Car/36-Roll-Bars-and-Cages/item-1439-BREY-KRAUSE-COMPETITION-SEAT-BACK-BRACE

Jarrod