Unofficial/gentleman's tire rule?

[rhygin]

Good evening...
I have been quite fascinated by Dan Sheppard's IT7 efforts last year where he ran the NER season with the same set of tires. I love this idea in terms of playing field leveling, cost managment, and tire management. And cost management again.

Yeah... not a winning idea if you are prepared to do regular Hoosiers, but maybe an alternative with a little peer-to-peer competition on the side?

So, for not point running people, I might suggest the Nitto NT-01 at $132 per tire and then use judgement regarding massive flatspots and rain.

Any interest in a gent's agreeement/sub-club? Minimal if any "real" rules... just handshakes...

Brad

[JLawton]

Brad,
I would loooooove to move to a cheaper tire or one that would last longer. I think it was easier with the NE IT7 crowd because they generally only race in NE. But anytime you step away from NHMS you're dealing with a group that isn't (won't) going to be using the "spec" tire.

And don't forget the double dipping Miatas..........

[ulfelder]

Side benefit: You could charge big ticket money for the last few races of the season, like the Sept. double at NHMS. I'd pay to watch that slippin' and slidin'!

Steve

[Dano77]

Brad has a very good point. and it still wasent a spec tire thing,3 of us actually got on the Nitto tires the rest stayed on the purple crack.

The beauty of this was in fact I bolted a set of full tread stickers on the car in April and took the off in october at the Runoffs. Probably gonna put em back on in july after the Climb to the Clouds. Might even run them there too.

Jeff is absolutly correct in the statement when you get away from the home track,its not a level playing field. I think you should go for the IT Cheap Tire Championship.

You get 6 tires for the season. Could be Falken RT615 they run around 65 bucks each last I looked. 200 treadwear so they should last a while.
Every car needs the decal ITCTC on the windshield and the loser buys the beer for the weekend.

have fun with this,Dan

[gran racing]

Tires represents a large portion of my budget and would love to reduce that if I still had a shot of running up front and winning.

The issue with doing this is that especially in the N.E., there are many people who run events with others who won't run the spec tire. As an example, I have a NJMP event on my schedule which is a MARRS race. The spec tire won't happen there. So in these instances (which there are many of), a person would need multiple sets using this spec tire and the other fast tires.


You get 6 tires for the season.

How many races? One person does 3 weekends on tracks that are typically easy on tires, another does 7 on tracks which are harsh on tires.

For a spec class, this would also be much easier than with mixed cars. Some cars are much easier on tires than others.

I think the concept of reducing the tire budgets is great and would love to find some way of doing it.

[benspeed]

I ran last year on two sets of tires. The last event at NJMP, the JRRC, was like racing on ice - talk about getting up on the wheel and really slowing for those corners. Both fronts were corded after that event (ran STU and ITR). Got my money's worth but if there were any other ITR guys there I'd have been badly embarassed.

[JeffYoung]

In my opinion, with the new Hoosier compound, you can get 8, 10 sometimes 12 cycles out of them.

For me, that basically means the whole season on two sets of tires. I was slipping and sliding last race of the year though and it hurt my competitiveness.

Point is I'm not sure a spec tire saves as much as you think v. really managing your Ho Hos -- heat cycling them, not flat spoting, etc.


I ran last year on two sets of tires. The last event at NJMP, the JRRC, was like racing on ice - talk about getting up on the wheel and really slowing for those corners. Both fronts were corded after that event (ran STU and ITR). Got my money's worth but if there were any other ITR guys there I'd have been badly embarassed.

[lateapex911]

For me, that basically means the whole season on two sets of tires. I was slipping and sliding last race of the year though and it hurt my competitiveness.

Point is I'm not sure a spec tire saves as much as you think v. really managing your Ho Hos -- heat cycling them, not flat spoting, etc.

I THINK what jeff is saying is:

Just get the fast tires, and don't worry when they 'lose" the magic...they'll be slow ...so what? Getting a spec tire that starts slow and stays slow ...the end result is the same. Except you're competitive for SOME sessions with the faster tire.

It comes down to more of a "I've made a conscious decision/ statement to be off pace", as opposed to a undesired eventuality.

[JeffYoung]

Keyrect.


I THINK what jeff is saying is:

Just get the fast tires, and don't worry when they 'lose" the magic...they'll be slow ...so what? Getting a spec tire that starts slow and stays slow ...the end result is the same. Except you're competitive for SOME sessions with the faster tire.

It comes down to more of a "I've made a conscious decision/ statement to be off pace", as opposed to a undesired eventuality.

[Greg Amy]

Getting a spec tire that starts slow and stays slow ...the end result is the same. Except you're competitive for SOME sessions with the faster tire.
Buuuttt, wait a sec: with a slow spec tire, you may be slower than with HoHos, but you're "competitive" ALL the time, 'cause everyone's using that tire...or am I missing the point here? Sounds like you guys are "needing" an American Sedan car "to be competitive"... ;)

And, we found - through anecdotal non-scientific - testing that a good consistent Toyo RA1 is actually faster than a dead Ho-Ho (15+ cycles). Couldn't tell you why, but I suspect it may have more to do with driver expectations and consistency than anything else. - GA

[lateapex911]

Buuuttt, wait a sec: with a slow spec tire, you may be slower than with HoHos, but you're "competitive" ALL the time, 'cause everyone's using that tire...or am I missing the point here? Sounds like you guys are "needing" an American Sedan car "to be competitive"... ;)

And, we found - through anecdotal non-scientific - testing that a good consistent Toyo RA1 is actually faster than a dead Ho-Ho (15+ cycles). Couldn't tell you why, but I suspect it may have more to do with driver expectations and consistency than anything else. - GA

Competitive with others in the subset of the class you're in that are using the tire/wheel combo you all have 'agreed' on.

The IT7 guys decided to do the spec tire thing, and that's cool, but I passed, because I run at other tracks, and adding yet MORE tires and wheels to the 'quiver' and setting the car up for them, wasn't of interest. So I just stayed away from New Hampshire.

[Dano77]

There was no GUYS it was Faita and Myself who scored a deal on a crapload of tires and some short money wheels. The GUYS said we dont want to go that route. So some of us chose to do it,not all. there is no Spec tire just a pile of tires we draw from. And the pile never gets lower as we havent gone back to the well yet for another set.

As for slowing down,I consitenly lowered the track record everytime we raced,and it was 2 seconds faster that the next Purple Crack Car. That said,Jake stayed away from NH so we dont know what the outcome of that is,but I feel on a good day I would have given him a run.

Have fun with this,Dan

[lateapex911]

My understanding was the contingent of guys bought in, but I guess it didn't turn out that way. Based on not wanting to be a dick with the wrong tires, I decided to stay away, and made my plans accordingly. Now, after that, I blew my motor, and parts didn't arrive from Japan until September late, so it was a moot point anyway. But...it DOES highlight one of the biggest issues with such a concept: the group buy in. If you do it, and one or two other guys kinda do it and sort of show up, well, you are now outstanding in your field. ;)

If a whole bunch of regulars do it and show up consistently, then it can work.

Dan and Dave (Faita) seem to have found the tire that makes a great choice, so talk to them about the purchase...maybe they can set you up.

[JeffYoung]

Good point, although every spec tire series I've seen that was competitive, well, once guys figured out where the sweet spot was on the spec tire that's what they'd run then discard and move on.

I guess you could stop that practice by limiting the number of sets available in a season but then you start having all kinds of compliance issues.


Buuuttt, wait a sec: with a slow spec tire, you may be slower than with HoHos, but you're "competitive" ALL the time, 'cause everyone's using that tire...or am I missing the point here? Sounds like you guys are "needing" an American Sedan car "to be competitive"... ;)

And, we found - through anecdotal non-scientific - testing that a good consistent Toyo RA1 is actually faster than a dead Ho-Ho (15+ cycles). Couldn't tell you why, but I suspect it may have more to do with driver expectations and consistency than anything else. - GA

[Greg Amy]

...every spec tire series I've seen that was competitive, well, once guys figured out where the sweet spot was on the spec tire that's what they'd run then discard and move on.
Yup, there will always be someone that will out-spend you: the racing cardinal rule. One would hope, however, that the tire chosen by "agreement" or the organizers would be one with a wide performance life/envelope such that the advantage is mostly negated...but ain't nuthin' perfect...

[gran racing]

I'll take Jake on A's on a cold day. :)

[StephenB]

I'll take Jake on A's on a cold day. :)

I'll take Dan on his tires :)

Do we have a duel shaping up for this year...

Stephen

PS: I like both of you but I would love to see a showdown! Since Dave picked jake I gotta pick Dan :)

[dickita15]

so there it is Jake, Memorial Day at NHMS?

[JLawton]

so there it is Jake, Memorial Day at NHMS?


Come on Jake, don't be a chicken!!

[gran racing]

Oh, not Memorial Day. I want to drag him to LRP for the AMLS show.

[dickita15]

well NHMS is Saturday & Sunday

[ner88]

Jake, if you need directions let me know!

[Dano77]

Thanks Guys but.... The car is now NOT compliant with SCCA IT regs ue to the Climb To The Clouds regulations. After that I might put the IT motor parts back in and add the stuff we took out and still have time to make the July School Regional 7/8-10.

If you would like Jake,Ive got wheels,spacers,studs and sticker tires sitting in the garage,Test day????

Tough saying,not knowin.

Dan

Can you bring me the transmission when you come up?

[Dano77]

, and parts didn't arrive from Japan until September late, :blink:

[rhygin]

Believe me when I tell you I know all about racing on borderline tires. Ask Jeremy how entertaining it was to follow me at NHMS last year!

I am very much in tune with the consistentency of performance and trying to be competitive "all of the time." I chose ITA specifically becasue a) I already had the car, b) I really like the mix of cars and the inherent strenghts and weaknesses v. SM, c) figured it would be "fairly" budget friendly.

I think trying to have an "official" spec tire is nuts given the multitude of points made throughout this thread, though an "unofficial"/gentlemans agreement has a handshake to deal with the variables.

So... a "side" NER championship for a limited tire group. Call it a Nitto NT-01, RA1, or similar (prolly no Hoosier or Goodyear) for the dry and what ever you have laying around for wets? Six tires total? Just throwin it out there....
Brad

[Matt93SE]

SIX tires for a season? eeek!!
I buy cheap R888 takeoffs from John Berget, and I might get three race weekends out of a set until there's nothing left. no corded, but absolutely no tread left and sliding all over the place.

Considering the number of races I've run since August, I'd guess I would need twice that many tires to make it through a season without running all of them through at least the first layer of cords.

That said, I'm not in your neck of the woods and I don't run IT, so I have no dog in the fight.. But I would definitely vote for a cheaper tire agreement! I'm tired of bringing dead R888s to a Hoosier fight!

[rhygin]

back to the top for fun and sport...

STATUS:

2010
Using Nitto NOT-01s from last year. Did a tripple points with double dip on them with no shave and no break-in other that I am slow, plus 3 test day sessions (late). Call it
10 sessions. Spent the winterin the RubberMaid shed outside. Boston winter.

2011
Did 2 test sessions, 4 qual, and two 40 min race sessions on the same set. Call it 10 (long sessions) for the weekend. Some graining type feel, and had to switch sides again!

So... at 18 on the Nittos... I am prepared to run them for another double dip weekend or two or start the "started" season with one set (call it 6 tires) and see how it goes.

Takers?

Interest...?

[JLawton]

Again, love the concept, but..............


Speaking of, anyone want my used Hoosiers? I've got a set of last years that only have 6-8 cycles but were on the car all winter.