SCCA, it makes sense to have double schools...

[Flyinglizard]

The regions should look at the double schools in the beginning of the year. Get the new guys on track while they are all exited, still have some cash, still have a wife , etc. Why are ther so few double schools? Making racers wait for up to a year to get the second school is just bad business. I am sure that the schools loose money but the big picture is further along in the year.
Now, how about the office opening on Sat and Sun, closed on tue- wed. ?? What kind of business sense has the office closed during 99% of the business time/ ( weekends).
MM

[tnord]

MiDiv has been having double schools at the very beginning of the year ever since I've been around (2003).

I agree, it's a very good idea.

[JeffYoung]

A double at the start and end of the year is the only way to go.

Two singles 9 months apart makes no sense.

[dave parker]

The Washington DC region used to have two schools a year, one in the spring and one in the fall. The program was well thought out and the smart person did the fall school then came back and did the spring school and raced at the first race a month later.
Unfortunately, the economics did not work, track rental rates rising and too few people wanting to start racing in a soft economy proved that to the region leadership.

In 2010 we did our first three day double school. It was well received by most everyone. It is a LONG three days but having students come away from the school licensed and ready to race is a huge plus. We just wrapped up our second year of the double school two weeks ago. Another success. I think that we will do another three day double school in 2012.

cheers
dave parker

[shwah]

As noted Mid Div has a season starting double school and regional race weekend.
So does Cen Div.

It makes too much sense not to do this IMO.

[ITA_honda]

The NEOHIO region has (for many years) hosted a double drivers school in May. It just makes the most sense. Its better for the region cost wise and its better for the students so they can complete the required (2) drivers schools by SCCA. This way they dont have the hassle of finding another drivers school, towing car there, etc.

[Hoof Hearted]

As Chris stated earlier... ...the first event on the Cen Div schedule is the double school & race at Blackhawk. That's what I did last year; school on Friday & Saturday with a 22 lap race on Sunday. It's a frantic schedule, but they ran it very well and I had gobs of track time and had a blast. The Region bribes/entices the drivers to the Sunday race by "paying" double points. It was very well attended.

[1stGenBoy]

Yes schools lose money. Many of them a LOT of money but you have to do them. As Brooks pointed out Cen-Div does a double school but only one a year. Just too expensive. We actually have 4 regions combined to do this school so one region doesn't have to take a bath financialy if things don't work out.
It use to be that to hold a National race you had to hold a drivers school. That is no longer true.
Also the SCCA office in Topeka is open on Sat's!!! I think until 2pm or so.

[Knestis]

Seems like even if they lose money, a double school is a loss leader of sorts, as a necessary part of getting people into the participant pipeline.

No effective school program = no new drivers = decreased entries = unsustainable program as attrition has its way with us

K

[Mseiler]

SEDiv has one at Roebling in Feb. My son & I did it this year in one car and both got signed off. We did our first races (Carolina Cup & ECR) 5 weeks later at VIR and we've both been signed off for a regional license.

I gotta say it was the most hectic 3 days I've ever had at a track. We put 12 hours on the car in those 3 days, this after using the previous 10 weeks to convert the car from CSP to ITA. It has been the most challenging and rewarding thing I've ever attmepted and would do it again in a heartbeat.

A region may lose money on a Double Driver School but, I think it has to be looked at as an investment in the future of the sport.

I would also like to thank Bucanneer Region, the instructors, Steve E., Willie S., Ted T., Tom with OPM, Bob at Race Engineering(I know I'm leaving some out) and especially my wife, for making a life long dream come true. We met some really nice people in the process, too.

[dickita15]

There are advantages to the double school but there are certainly advantages to the singles as well. After doing doubles for years we are back to high quality singles. We find that we do not have a problem signing off someone who has some prior experience and who “gets It” after one school with 4 or 5 hours. We use a lot of on track instructors to test student’s skill in situations.
I find it odd that students are so focused on getting thru the school rather than enjoying what is arguably the best value in racing, taking the school.

[Matt Rowe]

My problem with double schools is do we really think a weekend of jam-packed instruction can be absorbed? The amount of information that needs to be conveyed in a school is significant and just as significant is the amount of time students need to absorb and process the information. Sure they will get the required track and class room time in a double but how much do they remember by the time they get home, or worse yet by the time they show up on the grid next to you.

Kirk's point about the school's being a loss leader is accurate. We don't run schools to make money, we run schools to bring in and instruct racers that will participate in future events. In some case we may need to take a loss in order to assure that we graduate people that are safe and that based on their experience with us want to come back and race.

[Flyinglizard]

Why couldnt we run schools, mixed in race weekends, throughout the year? Just treat the school session as a race group. maybe run open wheel at one race, run small bore closed at the next race. Maybe even at a nat weekend to pick up some extra cash. You have plenty of drivers around to help students, you have the track workers, you have evry thing you need.
The statement about absorbing all of the imput over one weekend/double school, is correct. Ever do in car instructing? About the 5th session( first day) the driver is backing up. Usually thay are much better the second day. Flip side is relearning the same things at the next event.

[spawpoet]

I haven't seen it mentioned on here, but one reason to run separate single schools is that the students can get exposure and instruction at more than one track. It just gives students a little more perspective before they are cut loose.

As for having schools integrated into regular full schedule regional race weekends I think that would be great from the students perspective, but I might be a bit much for the stewards etc. I know CFR has had the Spec Car Enduro alongside their July school the last few years, and it helps pay the bills for the weekend. And of course Florida region has the Double Enduros concurrent with their June school. It's great because they have the students also work corners for part of the weekend which again give them another perspective on what's going on. I would think enduros would be ideal to run along with a school as they draw well, and would have a limited number of sessions making it easier to integrate the school sessions along with the racing.

[dickita15]

Why couldnt we run schools, mixed in race weekends, throughout the year? Just treat the school session as a race group. maybe run open wheel at one race, run small bore closed at the next race.
It can absolutely be done, and I think is somewhere if you have room for an extra run group or two. Given that format it might take 2 or three weekends to get in the equivalent of one school.
At Lime Rock where track time is big bucks and there is no racing on Sunday we used to run a Friday 3 run group school with a Saturday one day regional. With school entries being lower we changed the format to a one run group (closed wheel) school on Friday mixed in with qualifying for the regional on Saturday. I feel bad for the open wheel guys but they were only bringing about 6 cars for that school.

[gran racing]

I find it odd that students are so focused on getting thru the school rather than enjoying what is arguably the best value in racing, taking the school.

When there is another school not long after, it makes this easier. Unfortunately many times the next school is late in the season so the student feels pressure to get signed off otherwise they won't be able to race that year.


Given that format it might take 2 or three weekends to get in the equivalent of one school.

Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing if integrated within a race weekend? That way the novices get exposure during the schools to other key aspects of the sport. It hopefully would mean less exposure to the region hosting it. And if a student proves they're ready after just one short school, they're ready. Hopefully this would also mean the schools would appear much more regularly on the schedule.

I know there are also cons of doing this but could be worth giving something else a try.

[Chip42]

My problem with double schools is do we really think a weekend of jam-packed instruction can be absorbed? The amount of information that needs to be conveyed in a school is significant and just as significant is the amount of time students need to absorb and process the information. Sure they will get the required track and class room time in a double but how much do they remember by the time they get home, or worse yet by the time they show up on the grid next to you.

Inversely, the upside is that you have the night to think and rest, and the NEXT DAY to apply what you learned and try again. learning something on day 2 and then waiting 4 months or more to apply it, somewhere else, is pretty close to useless. I almost think that the single school should be a double school format. but that's impractical. I know it was very useful to me to have another day to sort it all out, as I jumped in way over my head when I did RRR double in 2008.

The PDX concept could go a long way to build driver comfort on track before getting to racecraft and regulations at driver's school. NASA has a good concept there, thoguh it does add to the schedule for a new racer.

[JIgou]

We've wedged a single-group driver's school into a regional race weekend before. As has been alluded to, it takes a toll on the volunteers involved in putting it on.

In precisely two weeks, we'll be starting the classroom session for school #1 of our double school at MAM....the only school scheduled anywhere in our division.

IF we had others doing schools, I'd be fine with doing a single school. BUT, knowing that the only other school options are a third-party accredited school (just bring money) until next Spring, we'll stick with a double.

We've even got a couple of Lemons / Chump guys showing up to take advantage of the regional-only class we've created for their cars. :D

Jarrod

[Flyinglizard]

What class for the Chumpcars??. What rules. Great idea. We run our Chumper @ Roebling Road a lot, about the same as the ITB cars.
Way to adjust to the market.
MM

[Matt93SE]

There was some talk locally about making a local race series for Chump/Lemons/run-what-ya-brung, but I don't think it ever materialized.

As for schools, SowDiv does a couple doubles each year- usually one at TWS in the summer (OMFG HOT!!!) and another in December at TMS. I did the TWS one last year and it was near 100 deg all weekend long. I had about 4.5hrs in the car on Sat and about 4 in car on Sun. I slept like a rock sat and sun nights!!

The shool was in mid-july, and the first regional race was in october. they had a double nat in Aug, and then we were dead for a while.
Nat: Aug, Feb, Mar, Apr
Reg: Oct, Jan, Feb, Apr

What I would *really* like to see is an advanced school for us guys that have been racing a while (you know, like 5 whold race weekends), that taught some more advanced racecraft and strategy. I know you can go to private schools, but maybe that could be a way to make the regular schools more affordable.

have the regular school for the beginners and while they're in the classroom, hold a more advanced class for the guys looking for the next step...

At my last school that would have been somewhat impractical since we had open and closed wheel groups, and getting the required track time in would mean a 12hr day of green track, but I would think that the advanced students would be happy to have a couple hours of track time with lots of instruction and debriefing maybe w/ some in-car video of "here's what this guy did- that's good. this is bad-don't EVER do this"

what you guys think?

[Flyinglizard]

That what I do ,on a personal basis . You really need one on one to get the racecraft down . The best way is to do some track days with a good racer , swap cars or whatever it takes to get observed while on track. The incar vids are pretty usefull. Really hard to do with more than one student, IMHO.

[JIgou]

What class for the Chumpcars??. What rules. Great idea. We run our Chumper @ Roebling Road a lot, about the same as the ITB cars.
Way to adjust to the market.
MM

I've heard of other regions (Land O'Lakes to name one) with the same idea.

The general concept is "make the car meet SCCA safety standards" which isn't much of a stretch for MOST of the cars. The regional class then makes it legit for the other random stuff....from window removal to cars that most certainly aren't classed anywhere else in SCCA.

http://forums.dmvrscca.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2303 has the "official" rules for the class, called E11 (for Enduro 2011). It ended up split into three classes, based on number of engine cylinders; I probably wouldn't have gone that route until we had an established user base, but that's minor.

[jjjanos]

Why require two schools at all? We could require only single school to get these people on track quicker. We could even drop the weekend format and run them through the school in one day and have a race the next. Or if we really want to get them on track as fast as possible, we could just abolish the school requirement entirely and put the new racer out there immediately.

In terms of preparing people to in a racing environment, two two-day schools trumps everything. One weekend wonders, on average, are less prepared to be in a racing environment because double schools, as a rule, cannot offer the same amount of track time and instruction as two two-day schools.

In the old days, there was no lack of schools. I believe that a region was required to host a school for each national the region hosted. Things changed when SCCA started accepting professional schools for licensing requirements and dropped the requirement for 1 school = 1 national. Suddenly, regions were no longer required to hold a school plus they weren't even covering the nut on entry fees.

[Mseiler]

I understand the comment about "one weekend wonders" and to some extent I agree. But, I don't think any school or number of schools, can adequately prepare someone for an actual race environment. What school provides the experience of being lapped by much faster cars racing for position? What school offers bump drafting as part of the curriculum? You may get a taste of door-to-door, nose-to-tail at speed but, in a school everyone is being a bit more cautious than what goes on during a race. We had about 15 cars in our school group, compared to 67 cars in our first race.

With 5 years of Time Trials and some F&C experience I felt like I had a fair background going into the double school but, road racing is a whole world apart and until you do it, it's nearly impossible to understand. Even though I've been signed off for a full RR license I still view myself as very much a newb and probably will for a while.

[Flyinglizard]

I put Michael in a Ministock round pounder, to get him ready for SM. He was ready for the road racing right away. He went from 25 cars on a 3/8 mile to 20 cars on 2.0 miles.
The roundy round racing was/is a lot nicer than the SM guys. :).

[Matt93SE]

You may get a taste of door-to-door, nose-to-tail at speed but, in a school everyone is being a bit more cautious than what goes on during a race. We had about 15 cars in our school group, compared to 67 cars in our first race.


OMFG 67?!?! :blink:
we had 67 entries... TOTAL.. this weekend for our R/N at Eagle's Canyon. of course most of the fast guys went to Hallett for the BFG Super Tour. Still have a couple quick guys in every class, but some of the run groups were just stupid small. Prod/SS/IT only had 8 cars at the regional on Sat, and they split the group to two run groups on Sun for the Nat/Rest Regional. 7 in one group, 8 in the other. It was like watching a DE except for the SSB cars that raced each other like an SM race. 3 cars nose to tail for about 10 laps, occasionaly trading places. awesome to watch!

[Speed Raycer]

The SCCA's going to need to figure out something QUICK. To the joe average racer, what's the easiest way on track right now?

About 100 guys just raced at Road America with CHUMP last weekend. I'd hazard to guess that less then 1/2 of them had prior race experience. No major contact, very few offs and very slick conditions for about 7 of the 14 hours of racing. All for about $200-300 per head.