Licensing Opinions?

[Simon T.]

I'm debating what to do here and thought I'd turn to my IT folks.

My debate is whether to go to a school in Sebring without knowing I'd get a license or waiting until next year when I can attend the double at Roebling which is closer and a double. Is it rare to have your second school waved? Who handles this? The chief instructor or your instructor for the event? I'm not saying I'm Schumacher and don't need any schooling I'm just curious. I do have quite a bit of on track experience, I've worked F&C for Road Atlanta for the past three years, letters of recommendation for a competition license, etc. PBOC (Porsche BMW Owners Club) said I could race wheel to wheel with them based on all of that, I had planned to do that, then use that license/weekend experience to get my SCCA license but the next PBOC race close to me is VIR and I just don't know if I feel comfortable being out there with all very fast high bore cars in sprint races.

Here are my options:

A. Go to the Sebring school in July, it's a single school. It's a nine hour drive or so from here each way. This wouldn't insure I'd get my license unless my second school was waved.

B. Wait for the double school at Roebling next year and just do quite a few track days this year and sort the car to my liking.

I can afford to do either, but in my view it would make sense to not waste the extra money going to Sebring if I can't attend a second school until next year anyway. I REALLY want to run the ARRC this year, but can probably wait patiently...again.

[JeffYoung]

Do the double at Roebling. I think it is rare, at least in NCR, to get your second school waived.

Spend the time sorting the car and getting more on track experience. You won't be comeptitive at the ARRC for a few years anyway, so not going this year doesn't hurt you. If want RA experience just plan on racing there in March of 12 after the Roebling school.

[Ron Earp]

Doesn't the SCCA recognize a NASA license? I think they do, and if so you might could go that route and be competing earlier than the double school at the RRR. Not saying that is the route I'd suggest but throwing it out there as an option.

Ron

[Simon T.]

Not trying to bash NASA but I refuse to go that route. :p

[Ron Earp]

How about the Skip Barber (or similar) route? Isn't there a way to do a SCCA license using them for one of the schools?

[Simon T.]

How about the Skip Barber (or similar) route? Isn't there a way to do a SCCA license using them for one of the schools?

There is, their three day school qualifies you for a regional license, but it's $4000 to do. I've looked at others as well and it's not much less than that, spending that much I'd rather just wait and use the money I'd save to race.

The only reason I don't want to go the NASA route is I've had some iffy experiences with them as has a few friends, you can't just jump into their competition school easily either without having to do their HPDE program.

[JeffYoung]

That's interesting you say that because my perception (probably erroneous) was like Ron's -- it is far easier to get a NASA license than an SCCA one.

Not true in your experience?

[Simon T.]

That's interesting you say that because my perception (probably erroneous) was like Ron's -- it is far easier to get a NASA license than an SCCA one.

Not true in your experience?

Not exactly.

I contacted NASA asking if I could attend their comp school and was told I needed to run their HPDEs first (two or three) then be eligible for the school. All HPDEs are are track days, they don't teach any "racing." I've done track days with documentation. I mean that's $400 or so per weekend, then your competition school, then I guess you will have to race with NASA before you can turn your paperwork to the SCCA right? It's my understanding to get an SCCA license using another license you need actual race experience and a real license, I don't think NASA gives you a real license until after six races or so. A friend recently ran with NASA and has an expired SCCA national license and is a Skip Barber instructor and they even wanted him to do their school or HPDE then school. I just feel they're more interested in getting you to do as many sessions as you can not as you need. ($)

If I could just go to NASA comp school, use that school to get my SCCA license or even just race that weekend with NASA and use that (NASA schools at least here are Friday before a race weekend) for my SCCA license then I would, but it just seems like too much work when I could just go to Roebling for a double school and leave with what I want.

[Matt93SE]

What about a PCA license? you said they've already basically whitelisted you..
get a PCA comp license or whatever and run a race or two with them, then do the sebring school and turn that stuff into SCCA and ask for a waiver given your prior competition and the school. it would be more ammo than just a single day at a school.

I don't know the area, but what about other tracks closer to you- do they offer any driving schools privately? I know at MSR-Houston, tons of n00bs have gotten licenses outside the annual 2-day skool I attended last summer. It's not cheap, but it's not $4000 either.
something like these guys: http://www.faasst.com/schedule.html
http://www.sportscardrivingexperience.com/schedule.php

What about flying to another region and renting an IT/SM for the weekend for a 2 day school? it would give you a chance to run a different track and make a vacation out of getting your license, as well as costing way less than $4000.. :)

[Simon T.]

Well I talked to my SCCA licensing person in my area, she said if I had a PBOC license with two races (even two in one weekend) I could get my regional SCCA license.

There are some other schools offered but none cheap enough that I feel like I should do. I did consider renting a car, but the other thing is that my car still needs a few things, so if I did rent a car or attend another school using a car I would still have to finish my car. So I would prefer a school using my car that way the car is done and I would be licensed and we'd both be ready to go.

I just sent an e-mail to the local SCCA licensing person again asking about NASA licenses and how that would work, so I may see about that and see if NASA will cut me a break.

Thanks for all the replies!

[Matt93SE]

If they go for the NASA thing, you could kinda pull the same thing with NASA to bypass their HPDE requirement. bring some documentation from other DEs and agree to enter one HPDE with them for a check ride or something.. see if they bite.
Then go through the NASA school and get your license with them. do a couple races or whatever and then go to SCCA. it's an arse-backwards way of doing it, but it's something to consider.

[pitbull113]

I'm assuming you know there's a school at daytona in april. For what it's worth i had my second school waived but had several years of circle track experience.

[Simon T.]

If they go for the NASA thing, you could kinda pull the same thing with NASA to bypass their HPDE requirement. bring some documentation from other DEs and agree to enter one HPDE with them for a check ride or something.. see if they bite.
Then go through the NASA school and get your license with them. do a couple races or whatever and then go to SCCA. it's an arse-backwards way of doing it, but it's something to consider.

Yeah that's what I'm looking into right now. I guess we shall see!


I'm assuming you know there's a school at daytona in april. For what it's worth i had my second school waived but had several years of circle track experience.

Yeah, I had planned on running that and then there was a school close to me at Atlanta Motorsport Park in July but the track still isn't finished yet. I just don't want to drive to Daytona and then Sebring not much later. It's quite a bit of mileage!

[Mazmarc63]

But what if you came to Daytona and got signed off? Email the chief instructor and request a guy named Marc Dana.

Pass the test.

Make sure you list most of your experience in your Novice permit. Let it be known to the chief and Mr. Dana that you have an interest in being signed off.

Don't do stupid stuff on and off the track.

Complete all the sessions.

Win.

note: As in life, nothing is guaranteed.

Call if you wish to discuss - 321 279 7915

[Simon T.]

I don't think there is anyway I can make the Daytona school now since it's so close. Will Mr. Dana be instructing in Sebring?

[Mazmarc63]

He certainly plans on instructing in Sebring.

Sorry you cant make it to Daytona. Its a fun little track.

Put my number in your phone.

[Matt93SE]

I liked both Daytona and Sebring.. Sebring more so, other than the fact I had to replace half my teef when I was done.
be sure and bring a spare set of brakes to Sebring. At my school, I was on track for about 4 hours each day (in 100+ heat no less!), so the car takes a beating. if you have marginal brakes, you'll definitely need spares. don't want to break down at the school!

[spawpoet]

Marc's a really good guy, and an excellent instructor. Helped me out at my schools even though he was assigned other students. I'd recommend calling him. Also, it seems to me that CFR is not too opposed to waiving your second school IF you keep your nose clean, and run the whole time like Marc says. My brother ran Sebring as his second school four years ago, and we lost the motor in the car after only two sessions. CFR still signed him off based on his performance in the first school, and what he showed in his little bit of time on track at Sebring. There's always a risk that they wouldn't sign you off, but I doubt that would happen with you track day experience as long as you perform well.

[callard]

Whenever I board an airliner and see the young pilot profiling for the flight attendants, I wonder if this is his first flight and whether he had part of his training and experience waived. I feel the same way when I see a new unknown car next to me on the grid.

[Mazmarc63]

But what if he had six years in an F-18 on an Aircraft Carrier?

I never sign anyone off that I wouldn't get next to on the track in my own car.

[Tom Donnelly]

Simon,

Marc would be a good instructor. And even if you don't pass, the seat time won't hurt, it will only help. And having some instruction and seat time before a double school at Roebling isn't a bad idea either. And Marc is there sometimes as well.

Just my 2 cents. Get all the seat time you can, you're in it for the long run, not 2 races and then crash out right?

Tom

[JLawton]

Simon,

Marc would be a good instructor. And even if you don't pass, the seat time won't hurt, it will only help.

Tom


That's a good point. Usually you get a ton of track time at the schools. Probably one of the best $$ per hour out there. Plus you'll get some good instruction. Yes, the instructors will help with improving your driving as well.

[Bill Miller]

I have to echo what Jeff said, you get a TON of track time at a school. IIRC, we got something like 6 1/2 hours of track time when I did the school at Summit Point. As the others have said, if you've got prior track experience, talk to the licensing official in your region as well as the chief instructor and the instructor you'll have at school (I would take Marc up on his offer), and let them know that you'd like to get signed off at their school. I had a decent amount of Time Trial (3 years) and W2W (2 years) w/ a group in the NE (EMRA) when I went to the SCCA school at Summit Point. I put all this stuff down, and talked to my instructor. I got a 4.5/5 on my evaluation with a "Great job, ready to race." comment by my instructor, and was signed off. That was in March of that year. By July I had qualified for a National license. Man I miss the MARRS series.

[Flyinglizard]

Not to knock either program, SCCA lets you learn while racing, NASA wants to to know what you are doing before you race.
It is far easier to get a SCCA license than NASA.
@ SCCA you just have to have two schools. You still dont need to know how to drive or race. Just not miss too many flags or run into too much.
NASA is much more stringent . No contact is tolerated. Bump drafting is. We got the easier SCCA tag, to race with NASA. NASA put my Son on a provisional( and he had 4 race weekends at that point and went very well. )
Roebling Double school is a fast way to get into the racing. I rent cars here almost every year. The track is very beginner friendly, and much more of a challenge than Sebring short course. (Which is a stop and squirt track).
If you have a clew, Marc can watch you - and you should have top 5 speed , never miss a flag, never run into anything, and not stop on yellows or white. Etc.
Good luck, MM

[BarryHasenkopf]

Good Thread! I'm in the same boat - was seriously thinking about Daytona given the cheap price $190. Very far to drive for me from Atlanta - AMP school was cancelled so I'm waiting for Savannah - sort the car and maybe try to do some other non-license required track events.

[callard]

But what if he had six years in an F-18 on an Aircraft Carrier?.
My brother was an F-16 IP at Luke for 4 years but he can't drive a car worth a damn. I went to his school and my skills didn't translate very well. I suck at his sport and he sucks at mine. And neither one of us can can play the violin.
When you are pulling lateral G's in an aircraft, you're in trouble. When you are pulling vertical G's in a race car, you're in trouble. :D


I never sign anyone off that I wouldn't get next to on the track in my own car. :023:
A qualitative assessment is the true measure of "ready to race".

[JLawton]

You still dont need to know how to drive or race. Just not miss too many flags or run into too much.



1) Oh no, no, no. We put our students through the ringer in the schools. The final "unofficial" test is whether the instructors would feel comfortable running side by side with them. (as Marc said) And it's a committee decision, not just up to one person. We've rejected people after TWO schools. It is not taken lightly. It is often a topic of discussion that we (the region and instructors) are responsible if the student gets signed off and then does something stupid where people get hurt. We take that VERY seriously. We also have about 25% of the run group filled with on-track instructors. They not only "test" the students but keep a close eye on those that are driving like butt heads

2) just because you can drive the line in a DE doesn't mean you can race wheel to wheel.

3) you will learn faster how to drive going all out in wheel to wheel than you will in a DE.

Just my experience with our region........

On edit: I'm trying not to take the comment personal............. but to discuss further...... Most of the guys getting their license are IT guys. That means I WILL be racing wheel to wheel with them at the next race. Hell, making sure someone is capable is self preservation!! And I also feel that my job as an instructor does not end when the weekend does. If I'm going to be out there with the new guys you can bet your ass I'm going to continue to help them......... whether they like it or not!!! :)

I'm OK now, thank you.

.

[Flyinglizard]

I have raced SCCA for 20yrs plus. I have rented cars for about the same time frame. This is my opinion of the beginner racers from each sanction body. SCCA lets beginner drivers race. Very few drivers have to do three schools. I have never had a renter have to do three. If you just do the time on track, and finish the school race of 5 laps, you get your permit. Simple as that. I go over the in car vids of my guys. Some are not very good. All get passed on two schools.
NASA makes sure that you hit turnin points , apexes and has a good frame of mind in flag situations, by requiring you to do the track days first and graduate through the groups. Lots of time on track. Some great drivers will have one track session and get the provisional book. Most will have to do three or four weekends, or more.
Most novice permits holders, I would consider safe racers. They are still beginners and will need to know how to hit an apex, and learn the tools of going faster, learn how to race ,setup passes and general racecraft.

Both styles serve their customers well. But the facts are that it is a lot easier to get a SCCA license than NASA. SCCA novice permits are credited the same in NASA. NASA grants a provisional license, pretty much equal to the nove permit book.
Like I said, I took My Son to a SCCA double school to get his NASA license. It was hassle free, quick, and I could count on the fact that he could race the next weekend in the series that was our focus (Teen Mazda Challenge). MM

[Z3_GoCar]

We used to hold two double schools a year, one in March and a second in May. Due to reduced student numbers, that's been consolidated to a single double school. We've now consolidated the double weekend even further, go from application to regional license in the same weekend. If you happen to production type car, you can do the school (Thursday-Saturday), and double-dip to a regional license on Sunday. Are we pushing them through too quickly? I don't know, but I'll be watching the new racers to see.

As a side note, the same weekend I was instructing at out PDX/Time Trials. I rode with a couple of students that I'd love to see in a race car. They both have great car control skills, and have excellant situational awareness.

[Matt93SE]

1) Oh no, no, no. We put our students through the ringer in the schools. The final "unofficial" test is whether the instructors would feel comfortable running side by side with them. (as Marc said) And it's a committee decision, not just up to one person. We've rejected people after TWO schools. It is not taken lightly. It is often a topic of discussion that we (the region and instructors) are responsible if the student gets signed off and then does something stupid where people get hurt. We take that VERY seriously. We also have about 25% of the run group filled with on-track instructors. They not only "test" the students but keep a close eye on those that are driving like butt heads

2) just because you can drive the line in a DE doesn't mean you can race wheel to wheel.

3) you will learn faster how to drive going all out in wheel to wheel than you will in a DE.

Just my experience with our region........

On edit: I'm trying not to take the comment personal............. but to discuss further...... Most of the guys getting their license are IT guys. That means I WILL be racing wheel to wheel with them at the next race. Hell, making sure someone is capable is self preservation!! And I also feel that my job as an instructor does not end when the weekend does. If I'm going to be out there with the new guys you can bet your ass I'm going to continue to help them......... whether they like it or not!!! :)

I'm OK now, thank you.

.

Very valid points and I like your approach. The whole time I was at our school, I heard several instructors telling their students "If I sign this book, then the next time I see you will be when I'm on grid with you in a race. if I'm not comfortable with your driving here, I don't sign this book and I don't have to worry about racing against you."

Well put, IMO.
I just wish the instructors would have come out and given us some in-car abuse.

And yes.. there were many students that were signed off at our school that should NOT be on track. I've nearly been run off track a half dozen times by two students in particular. it's not cause they're being aggressive, it's cause they drive their own freakin line 30 sec off the pace and don't even think about looking in their mirrors.

I asked one of these guys in passing how much track time he'd had before the driver school "3 or 4 DE weekends. I got pretty good- they let me into blue group."

Uhhhh... really? blue group at a DE and you think you're ready to race? wow.
I've been doing DEs for nearly 10 years and was still scared when I e

[Matt93SE]

1) Oh no, no, no. We put our students through the ringer in the schools. The final "unofficial" test is whether the instructors would feel comfortable running side by side with them. (as Marc said) And it's a committee decision, not just up to one person. We've rejected people after TWO schools. It is not taken lightly. It is often a topic of discussion that we (the region and instructors) are responsible if the student gets signed off and then does something stupid where people get hurt. We take that VERY seriously. We also have about 25% of the run group filled with on-track instructors. They not only "test" the students but keep a close eye on those that are driving like butt heads

2) just because you can drive the line in a DE doesn't mean you can race wheel to wheel.

3) you will learn faster how to drive going all out in wheel to wheel than you will in a DE.

Just my experience with our region........

On edit: I'm trying not to take the comment personal............. but to discuss further...... Most of the guys getting their license are IT guys. That means I WILL be racing wheel to wheel with them at the next race. Hell, making sure someone is capable is self preservation!! And I also feel that my job as an instructor does not end when the weekend does. If I'm going to be out there with the new guys you can bet your ass I'm going to continue to help them......... whether they like it or not!!! :)

I'm OK now, thank you.

.

Very valid points and I like your approach. The whole time I was at our school, I heard several instructors telling their students "If I sign this book, then the next time I see you will be when I'm on grid with you in a race. if I'm not comfortable with your driving here, I don't sign this book and I don't have to worry about racing against you."

Well put, IMO.
I just wish the instructors would have come out and given us some in-car abuse.

And yes.. there were many students that were signed off at our school that should NOT be on track. I've nearly been run off track a half dozen times by two students in particular. it's not cause they're being aggressive, it's cause they drive their own freakin line 30 sec off the pace and don't even think about looking in their mirrors.

I asked one of these guys in passing how much track time he'd had before the driver school "3 or 4 DE weekends. I got pretty good- they let me into blue group."

Uhhhh... really? blue group at a DE and you think you're ready to race? wow.
I've been doing DEs for nearly 10 years and was still scared when I belted in for my first race.

[EV]

I had one SCCA school and some track time. Talked to the NASA director and got what they call a "comp eval". This involved doing a few sessions of drills so they could watch you, and if you did well, they started you at the end of the pack for the Sunday race. If you were safe and did okay, you received your provisional license. With the school, and the provisional from NASA, I got my second school waived, and received a provisional SCCA license. You may still have to do an HPDE with the local NASA region to prove yourself, but maybe only one.

For fear of flaming, I will reserve my comments on SCCA vs. NASA schools/system...

[Simon T.]

This is an AWESOME thread with some very valid information in here, I greatly appreciate all of the comments.

I can't agree more about being ready to race. I have nothing against instruction or learning more, every driver can learn something from another driver. I do feel I am "ready" to race in the sense that I know all about flagging, passing, being passed, etc. The last track day I did I was in the Neon with GT3 Cup cars, a Lamborghini, M3s, etc. I'm a king at checking my mirrors. :p

I think after reading this I've broken it down to two options:

A. Wait until the double school. It sounds like you learn a LOT which I am ALWAYS happy to do and you get a lot of seat time. It's also closer to me and insures that unless I really screw up I will get a license.

B. I have been talking to my regional licensing director and talking about other possibilities, if none work out I'll do the double.

I thought about Sebring some more and it just seems sort of risky, I know it's good seat time, but I AM still on a budget and after gas, prepping the car, towing, food, etc. it quickly adds up to more than the Roebling weekend and even though I am eager to get my license I want to do it right and not rush anything, so I could better develop the car this summer and patiently wait.

Keep the posts coming though it's all great stuff that I am thoroughly enjoying. I'd love to hear the "SCCA vs. NASA schools/system" comments, I won't flame you!

[GKR_17]

Simon,

Marc would be a good instructor...

Now that's an understatement.