mk1 suspension

[black ice]

Hello.I have a 1981 vw scirocco that i will be road racing,looking for advice on suspension set up,have autotech sway bars 25mm 28mm was thinking about bilstein race struts,what spring rates would be good to use.

[Bill Miller]

Hello.I have a 1981 vw scirocco that i will be road racing,looking for advice on suspension set up,have autotech sway bars 25mm 28mm was thinking about bilstein race struts,what spring rates would be good to use.

First off, ditch the front bar and see if you can add a 2nd rear bar. I'm going from memory on this, but my ITB Rabbit GTI was set up as follows:

600# F / 400# R springs

Bilstein race struts up front 230/72 valving, race struts in rear, but I don't remember the valving. If you haven't committed to Bilsteins, I'd talk to Lee Grimes about some Koni's for that car. Kirk runs Koni's on his Mk III, and they work WELL! I'm not sure if Bill Hindorf (sp?) is still at Bilstein, but he had a decent amount of setup knowledge for these cars.

There's a guy in NC that was pretty good w/ them as well, Tyler Raatz. And there's Cameron Conover at Renngruppe in NC. Atlantic Motor Works in Fla. is another good VW shop as well as Shine up in New England. LOTS of knowledge out there on these cars.

Set the ride height so that your lower control arms are level or have a very slight inclination up (ball joint higher than mounting point). Not much though, no more than 1/2" higher. I ran the rear end lower than the front. Helped w/ weight transfer. Camber will depend on tires. I ran 1/16" toe out front and rear.

Keep in mind, this is a dry setup. You will want to take one (the heavier of the two) rear bars off it it's wet. I also ran a Quaiffe in my car.

[Tim Dugan]

2 :023: for that set up i run 500lb spings in the rear with no sway bar. Keeps the car pretty neutral but it also depends on the driver. If you are looking for a tranny i have one already set up with a wavetrac diff. let me know if your interested

[racer_tim]

Well, the suspension setup is based around what diff you want to run. Some like a locked diff or spool, and some like a LSD. Depending on what diff you run, dictates what your suspension setup.

[black ice]

Thanks for the info guys,the transmission is lsd.

[Flyinglizard]

We towed to a race(Summit) in the rain, swapped out to "rain" springs, in the rain. Ran all weekend in the rain. Came back to Sebring with the same springs, went the same as the stiff springs. left in the 375 front, 300rear. Still in the car today. Locked diff, no front bar, stock rear bar.3mm toe out front, 10mm toe out rear. Pretty damn fast @ 245: Sebring long on take off, Yoke 048 tires. Can't wait to get my kid in the car on the R6s. He will laugh at beating my old time.
Buy my book, go faster. really . MM

[jrez]

Interesting stuff, and Im kinda surprised at the different setups people are running.

What spring lengths are recommended for the mk1 and do most of you pack a separate rain setup with regards to springs? My thinking is to soften up the shocks and mount up the rain tires.

Tnx

John

[Bill Miller]

Interesting stuff, and Im kinda surprised at the different setups people are running.

What spring lengths are recommended for the mk1 and do most of you pack a separate rain setup with regards to springs? My thinking is to soften up the shocks and mount up the rain tires.

Tnx

John

I didn't change anything for the wet other than the tires and taking off the heavier of the two rear bars.

[Sandro]

Bill- Did you get your F & R Spring rates swapped?

I run basically the opposite F: 400# R: 600# with a big rear bar and no front bar.



I started with the Bilstein Race Coilovers, thinking I wouldn't need the adjustable suspension as it was just an extra variable to mess with. For a non adjustable suspension they are probably the best you can buy. Two years later I switched to the KONI 8611's, for the adjustability and boy did they make a difference. I think the 8611's are probably the best suspension you can get without spending big $$$.

[racer_tim]

Everybody has a different way of setting up a FWD VW. Some like more spring in the rear, some like no front bar, some do this and some do that.

It all depends on your driving style, the tracks you run, and what you're comfortable with.

Use these as baselines, and then adjust accordingly.

[Lael Cleland]

Yea we all run different set-ups, I run a stock non gti front bar,, 1.75in .095 dom tube welded to exhaust clamps on the rear, 600lb front 450 rear, 1/8-1/4 to out front, 1/4-1/2 out rear, Camber depends on tires... I run mine lower than most, also have spherical bearings in front C-arms, HUGE improvement! less camber required....
Oh and a Peloquin LSD.... Old bilstein Gruppe 1 front and modified KYB AGX adjustable rear...

Driving style has every thing to do with set-up, The rear of my car is super loose, the rear just slides around corners... My opinion is if the rear is turning the car, the front turns less, and able to get back on the gas sooner, Tire wear ain't the best, but its fun!
But if i am .1 seconds late getting the power down, its goinin around......

[Bill Miller]

Bill- Did you get your F & R Spring rates swapped?

I run basically the opposite F: 400# R: 600# with a big rear bar and no front bar.



I started with the Bilstein Race Coilovers, thinking I wouldn't need the adjustable suspension as it was just an extra variable to mess with. For a non adjustable suspension they are probably the best you can buy. Two years later I switched to the KONI 8611's, for the adjustability and boy did they make a difference. I think the 8611's are probably the best suspension you can get without spending big $$$.

Nope, 600F, 400R, although, had I kept the car, I was going to up the rear rates to 450# or 500#.

As folks have said, everyone builds their setup to their driving style. IIRC, Shine and BSI had significantly different setups for their cars. I think the Shine setup is similar to what I used to run, and BSI ran springs that were ~200# softer all the way around. While I really like the Bilsteins, were I to do it over, I'd probably go w/ Koni 8611's to get the adjustability.

[jrez]

Yea we all run different set-ups, I run a stock non gti front bar,, 1.75in .095 dom tube welded to exhaust clamps on the rear, 600lb front 450 rear, 1/8-1/4 to out front, 1/4-1/2 out rear, Camber depends on tires... I run mine lower than most, also have spherical bearings in front C-arms, HUGE improvement! less camber required....
Oh and a Peloquin LSD.... Old bilstein Gruppe 1 front and modified KYB AGX adjustable rear...

Driving style has every thing to do with set-up, The rear of my car is super loose, the rear just slides around corners... My opinion is if the rear is turning the car, the front turns less, and able to get back on the gas sooner, Tire wear ain't the best, but its fun!
But if i am .1 seconds late getting the power down, its goinin around......

Could you provide some details about doing the spherical bearing conversion? I've tried finding a detailed post about doing it, but I've had no luck. I did find out that 944's have kits for the front arms, but Im not 100% sure if they will work and they are quite pricey. Im definitely capable of installing/machining parts(aircraft mech by trade) but would like to know what the standard practice is.

Thank's again to everyone for the posts! Great stuff !Im(sciroccoII) going with 450f/600r(hypercoil), no rear bar, 25mm front bar, peloquin lsd, Not sure about alignment just yet, thinking neutral toe all way round to start, factory camber. I have a recording pyro so I'll figure that out at the track, and I just bought scales so the corner balance should be set up also. One question though, what about caster? I know it isn't adjustable but I have seen somebodies camber plate offer adjustment for it.
Opinions?

John

[Bill Miller]

Give Dick Shine a call. IIRC, they had a spherical bearing kit for A1 and A2 chassis VW's.

[Flyinglizard]

I dont know of any really fast VWs with a front bar(midpacker maybe) . Maybe with a locker you could still get power down. It makes more sense to gain roll stiffness with spring rates. Esp if you are going to change them anyway.
The front bar adds weight, reduces inside tire power delivery, reduces front supsension service, hits the axles boot, upsets both tires upon "curbing". The FSB reduces front tire grip. You are trying to increase front tire grip. I see no reason to keep one. I have done back to back testing in a bunch of(VW) cars. all have gone faster (on the watch) without the front bar. yeah, it leans a little more, but the watch tells all.
You do need to reduce and control rear tire grip. The rear toe out and big springs reduce the front tire loading while increasing the rear tire loading. That is why the spring rates are so high, RE to the axle weights.
The car may feel "nicer" and look better, but the exit V will be lower than no front bar and the inside tire pulling harder.
My first ITB Golf had a 25mm front bar , for about 1 hr. 30 VW race cars later, I just throw them in a pile.
Save your money for tires. IMHO,
MM

[jrez]

Interesting points. I tried the no front bar/stock rear bar last season, and had trouble with the inside front wheel losing grip while low speed cornering, and yeah, it leaned like a pig, lol. The big issue was the KW coilover setup, as the springs were too soft, but talking to people, the current setup was mentioned. The nfb setup otherwise seemed good under(faster corners) power, a little nervous off throttle in the dry, scary when wet. I actually put the stock bar back on for the damp race. I was using rain tires.
I've bought all the parts already, but the springs can flipped around, and I do have a gti stock front/rear bar and 350 lbs for spares also. So I can mess around a little.
I did purchase your ebook and I'll see how some of the info pans out.

I did another search for the spherical bearing lca conversion, and again nothing. Shine doesn't list anything, but I will try calling them.

Thanks again

[Sandro]

for bushings and suspension stuff also check here www.lellaautosport.com


for caster, you can either get adjustable plates, or when you mount non adjustable plates, just mount them slightly to the rear, giving you some caster.

[Lael Cleland]

OK on the MK1, here is how i did the brgs, the front ones i used .625id x 1.2od x .5. I turned them down just a bit to fit new fibi/bilstein control arms, drilled 2 3/8s holes in the center of the bushing location pressed the brg in and plug welded it, the turned some stepped bushings to adapt the .625 to 12mm front done easy...
The rear I used 1.675OD X .725 od X .625 (my batteries are missing on caliper)
They fit perfectly on the rear part of the C-arm.. found some 1.60ID tubing/pipe and machined the center to accept the brg and snap ring grove... I stood the pipe on end in the mill and milled it till there was like .08-.10 left at the thinnest part of tube. I made some .375 thick tabs, each with 10mm holes, and welded them to the brg holder, flush to the machine part, I was VERY temped to off set the tabs to get more caster...
Threw it back in the mill and removed the little bit of weld to make it flush again...
Also 10mm jet nuts w/12-13mm head work well cause the brg housing is larger than the oe bushing holder.... I will take some picts if I have time, the rear one is tougher.. I am building one set for a Buddie now, I need more big brgs...

The first go around the rear one I used aluminum, just copied a poly bushing.. but it wore out quick....

I was kinda reluctant to give up my design, I would be willing to make a 1/2 dozen if people are interested.... I did the math and to make any $$ that goes to racing budget.. They would be $250-$300 for the pair....with LCRs... that's about $40 an hour...

[jimbbski]

[QUOTE=Lael Cleland;319184I was kinda reluctant to give up my design, I would be willing to make a 1/2 dozen if people are interested.... I did the math and to make any $$ that goes to racing budget.. They would be $250-$300 for the pair....with LCRs... that's about $40 an hour...[/QUOTE]
I hear ya!. I made my own front bearing bushing and the cost of materials and labor I would have to charge someone it ends up costing about what you quoted.
I have done them for my self and for a couple of friends, but to make money doing them no.

[Lael Cleland]

Yea, its allot of work, when other things need to be done before april 15th(not taxes).... I could not imagine doing a honda LOL.. that would take a month!!!

[GTIspirit]

I've been thinking for some time about doing this myself, but it's low on my list of priorities. Shouldn't be too hard, you just need something like a Uni-Ball Weld Cup (http://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/6455/) of the appropriate size and then a section of DOM turned to the correct size to take up the space between the Uni-Ball Weld Cup and the control arm. I've done a lot of research and the trick is finding the appropriate size Uni-Ball weld cup so the ID of the DOM tube matches the OD of the Uni-Ball weld cup. Then only the OD of the DOM tube needs to be turned down to the ID of the control arm bushing hole. Then just weld the three pieces together. I think it could be done for about $80 in parts and about two hours labor, with judicious part selection to minimize machining.

Oh, and I don't think that sphericals make much sense on a Mk1, would be a lot more beneficial on the Mk2 Pt H bushing.

[Flyinglizard]

I have used "Jeep" pilot shaft bushings in the MK 1 LCA. I braze them in the lower front Inner LCA points. Works fine. If you choose your bushing properly , you should find one that can be turned down to offest the hole a little.( Imoved mine up and out a bit.)
Remember that the LCA is pretty weak and bends at slight impact. Spending a lot of love there, will surely lead to the Karma return of a slight wheel to wheel interface and bend your artwork.
Just grease the bolt every 5 races. MM

[Lael Cleland]

I will check the jeep parts out, cool!!
FIBI/Bilstein LCAs only!!!!! I received a mayle once, it had 1/2 the welds, and was lighter... I wouldn't put in on a daily driver.....

$80 in parts a? the LCAs are $100 for a good pair... BRGs are $80-$120....

The compression of a rubber/poly is allot when loaded, it changes camber and toe... so you require more -camber, the get a good contact patch, the less you can have the better braking in a straight line....

[jrez]

Guys, THANKS again!

Last year was my first attempt(incomplete) at prepping road racing a VW and Im seeing there is lots I don't know, lol. Ice racing ain't quite the same.

Looks like I had bits and pieces figured out about the spherical, specifically the stepper bushing, as I found out finding suitable metric stuff is pricey, but most of it was new info. Thanks.

This info just ain't around in western Canada.

John

[Lael Cleland]

How long is your racing season in Canada?

Well I was a newbie once, and I got a lot of help from other racers.. Even the guy you race against want you out there, kicking ass! even if its their ass...

#1 rule of racing: Nothing is free, you change one thing it will effect something else.. Except weight.... lighter is always better!

[jrez]

Road racing on asphalt starts up usually end of March(early April this year) to about mid/late October, at least here on the west coast. Ice racing usually runs mid January - early March weather depending, some parts of Canada you could go until late May.:D.

Can't agree more with competitors helping me out - my first race in the rocco last year didn't go so smoothly(wrong bolt holding lbj to spindle=separation) and I'd hardly pushed the car into the stall and I was swarmed by ICSCC guys wanting to help out. I was ready to load the trailer, instead I was ready to go in an hour and a half.
Made a big impression on me and I hope to emulate the same.

The weight thing, lol, I swapped out the rear discs to drums to save about 12 lbs and it hit me that I could do with losing the same amount personally.

Cheers'

John

[jrez]

just wanted to add some feedback since I ran my car at the track, with the 450f/600r, big autotech front bar/no rear bar.
Much better than last year, car is much flatter and gently over steers when under power(lsd), some thing it never did before. I do still feel that the car could be stiffer as it does feel like it rolls a little too much still.
What spring rates would you guys recommend if I don't want to run any arb's? I should also mention that my home track is quite tight, but I do plan on hitting pacific raceway and portland in the future.

Generally happy with how the car feels, just want to tighten it up. http://gerryfrechette.zenfolio.com/p65455503/h23c17ca6#h23c17ca6

home track

http://gerryfrechette.zenfolio.com/p65455503/h23c17ca6#h23c17ca6



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