New Beetle Questions

[BullFish]

Hey Guys. I am the guy who bought the ITC Beetle last year and ran it once at Mid Ohio. Its been a while since I ran a VW, and that one was a FV! One thing I discovered was I think the beetle is wayyy undersprung, and I was wondering if guys could give me a ballpark on what they may run on their cars. Hell, I don't even know what the chassis designation it is.. A? B? AB?

Right now the car has 180lbs in the rear with a huge aftermarket rear bar, the fronts are 400lbs with a factory front bar... I think the rear is fairly close.. its stiff with that bar.. but the front seems undersprung. I am lifting the rear tires about a foot off the ground.

Any and all input will be greatly appreciated. Just hoping I can eliminate a bit of trial and error and get this thing up to speed.

Thanks!

Kris Smith

[shwah]

The Beetle is built on the A4 also known as MkIV chassis (I think the new nomenclature came about to avoid confusion with the Audi A4 model car (which was actually introduced on the B5 chassis - to confuse matters more)). It shares basic chassis as the Golf, Jetta and TT of the same era.

Your suspicion is correct, that thing is way under sprung. Most of the A2 and A3 guys are running more spring on lighter cars. I run 550 front and rear, I know some A3 guys run significantly more in the rear to get the car to rotate, but a lot depends on the chassis setup - soft rear axle bushings to promote 'rear steer' vs. stiff ones to increase roll resistance for instance.

If I were picking a starting point for that car, I would go with at least 600# springs front and rear, and get the shocks valved to work at that rate.

A big rear bar is almost universal for everyone's setup. The front bar depends on other conditions. If you run a locked/welded differential, feel free to run a front anti-roll bar. If you run open, or a quaiffe type, you are probably better off removing the front bar to retain traction on the inside front tire.

In my personal experience I found that once the rates were in the ball park for my driving style, NOTHING has made a bigger difference than getting the shocks right. In my case that was going with the Ground Control Advanced Design dampers. Other folks have other preferences, and they probably work well, but the key is getting them right.

Good luck with the car and the development game!.

[Knestis]

We've got a MkIII Golf and are at 500F/700R, with no front bar and three rear bars - the stock one, a welded in "plate" bar, and a Speedway Engineering type adjustable bar.

K

[Flyinglizard]

My setup guide should help you along. If it doesnt ,You get the cash back.
Like they said up stairs, 5-600 front and 450-650 rear. Lots of little things make little subtle changes. Usually , more tire= more spring.
Just 3mm toe out in the rear will lower the inside tire, if the inside tire is lower, the outer front is better controlled, etc. If you "rearsteer" it, the car will go faster and be better on tires.
MM

[BullFish]

Guys... I cannot thank you enough for sharing your information. I will definetly pick up the guide and give it a good read. FWD is a new world to me too, so I do have quite a learning curve ahead of me. Thanks again and, as always, any and all information is appreciated! :happy204:

Kristian

[BullFish]

Soo, hate to pry again.. :dead_horse: but.. camber settings? I have been told 3.5 degrees each side up front.. seems a bit steep to me.. but.. like I said before.. its a new world for me! Thanks again guys! :happy204:

Kristian

[Bill Miller]

I think the front camber is going to depend on the tires. IIRC, the newer Hoosiers don't like as much camber as the older ones. Phil from Phil's Tire Service should be able to give you some insight.

As the other guys have said, the car is under sprung. I ran 600F/400R no front bar/ 2 rear bars on an ITB Rabbit GTI. And that car weighed probably 400# - 500# less than your car. That in and of itself presents a dilemma. Your car weighs a lot more than any ITC, ITB, or ITA VW out there. It will take some development to dial the suspension in.

I forget which shocks were listed on that car, but if you're jumping the spring rates up to the range that the folks here are suggesting, I'd recommend that you get the shocks dynoed, and more than likely re-valved. A shock that's properly valved for a 180# spring will not be properly valved for a 600# spring. Lee Grimes works for Koni and knows a LOT about setting them up.

I'd also suggest corner weighting the car. I can pull out my old setup book to get the settings on my car, or maybe Chris or Kirk will share their info.

Interested to see how the car does.

[BullFish]

Thanks again guys! Trying to do some scientific guessing at what springs rates to be the first to try. I have a diff on the way. I've got a 225 tire on the car right now, but it liked the shorter 205's at Mid Ohio. The shocks are off the shelf Koni's, I doubt they were valved to anything close to what would be optimum. Its going to be a work in progress, and I am looking forward to that, as I have never developed a car before.

Speaking of that, I cannot find a header for it, as Pacesetter has discontinued it. I don't know of any other suppliers. Would one from another MkIV chassis work? What about a chip/computer? Any ideas?

Thanks guys... I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. Hope to have it up to speed in time for the I.T. Festival.

Kris

[Knestis]

Contact Cameron at RennGruppe Motorsports - he can point you at answers for the VWs. Contact info is at...

http://www.renngruppemotorsports.com/

K

[shwah]

As Bill states camber will depend on the tire, and the eventual suspension setup.

I have also heard that the R6 Hoosier likes less camber than the RS304s did. IMO that is for max life. I have been running mine at -3.5 in the front, a slight wear for grip trade off because they hit the end of fast heat cycles before they run out of rubber anyhow.

If you have off the shelf Konis, I would figure out the spring rates, corner weight it with them, and contact Lee Grimes to get them revalved based on that data. The shocks matter the most.