Rental Costs

[Simon T.]

I am going to be renting out my extra seats for enduros this year and need an idea on costs so am asking what YOU would pay for a seat in the car. I have some ideas, but I'd like to see if I'm too low or too high.

The car is a Neon ACR, I have no track time for the car as an IT car as it has only ran as an SSC car. The engine was rebuilt not that long ago with no race mileage just some autocross and one track day. The suspension currently is the typical ACR package which is adjustable Konis, Mopar springs, sway bars, and all new bushings.

My home track is Road Atlanta, it will cost me $30 to get it there towing it.

So just curious, what is a good price for say 3 hour races, 8 hour, etc. The longest race I'm looking at is the 8 hour with NASA in December. I'd like to do the VIR 13 hour if I had the funding.

I want the rental cost to include tires, brakes, etc. It's very easy on brakes and tires, we will probably be using BFGoodrich R1s.

Also how much seat time do renting drivers want, I know seat time is everything, but realistically in a three hour enduro with just two drivers is an hour and a half each worth the cost of renting?

I have a chance to race with the PBOC at Road Atlanta at the end of the month, there is a three hour enduro on Friday including a 30 minute practice and 30 minute qualifying before the race. It would be my first race, giving me a PBOC license, I don't have any other license yet. I missed the double school with SCCA at Roebling due to my car needing a bit more and some unexpected medical expenses for our chinchilla. :p

[lateapex911]

Simon, I'm going to suggest that you might want to get a lic and a few races under your belt first. See how the car does in shorter races, get a good handle on how it will handle being driven HARD. Track what breaks, what wears, what needs replacing. Renters do NOT want a car that they don't get to drive because a bearing failed. Good prep is HUGE.

Second, there's a significant learning curve to enduros. You'll need equipment, and crew to man that equipment. That crew should be paid, fed and housed. Renters usually look for a chance to win, (or contend) and not having the team support/well prepped car, etc means they won't see that chance.

Now you CAN do it on a shoestring, but...failure is more likely.

Kirk knows all the numbers, and, not coincidentally, a ride in his car is not on the cheaper side of things. That's because he understands REAL accounting.
In other words, every time your car goes on track, you are wearing it out. You'll need brakes, a transmission, new shocks, sparkplugs airfilters, oil, oil filters and a rebuild for the engine because the car is being used. You have to charge for that..not just the gas and tires.
If you end up NOT charging correctly for that, and YOU pay for all that stuff later, you just performed a charity to others who used up your car.

I'm guessing the idea is to defray your costs of ownership, so figuring out your true costs* first will tell you how much you have to charge.
Now, whether that aligns with what people WILL pay, is another story.

* your true costs will ALWAYS be higher than you think. That 25 dollar case of oil? You paid sales tax on that. So it's not $25. People forget this stuff, they don't account for all the things that get used up. Brakecleaner, tools, paper towels, grease, worn out and broken jacks...it all adds up, and people are invariably wrong with their numbers. Also, certain cars are much sturdier and cheaper machines to run. It's no coincidence that Miatas are the most popular rental ride...

[Simon T.]

Simon, I'm going to suggest that you might want to get a lic and a few races under your belt first. See how the car does in shorter races, get a good handle on how it will handle being driven HARD. Track what breaks, what wears, what needs replacing. Renters do NOT want a car that they don't get to drive because a bearing failed. Good prep is HUGE.

Second, there's a significant learning curve to enduros. You'll need equipment, and crew to man that equipment. That crew should be paid, fed and housed. Renters usually look for a chance to win, (or contend) and not having the team support/well prepped car, etc means they won't see that chance.

Now you CAN do it on a shoestring, but...failure is more likely.

Kirk knows all the numbers, and, not coincidentally, a ride in his car is not on the cheaper side of things. That's because he understands REAL accounting.
In other words, every time your car goes on track, you are wearing it out. You'll need brakes, a transmission, new shocks, sparkplugs airfilters, oil, oil filters and a rebuild for the engine because the car is being used. You have to charge for that..not just the gas and tires.
If you end up NOT charging correctly for that, and YOU pay for all that stuff later, you just performed a charity to others who used up your car.

I'm guessing the idea is to defray your costs of ownership, so figuring out your true costs* first will tell you how much you have to charge.
Now, whether that aligns with what people WILL pay, is another story.

* your true costs will ALWAYS be higher than you think. That 25 dollar case of oil? You paid sales tax on that. So it's not $25. People forget this stuff, they don't account for all the things that get used up. Brakecleaner, tools, paper towels, grease, worn out and broken jacks...it all adds up, and people are invariably wrong with their numbers. Also, certain cars are much sturdier and cheaper machines to run. It's no coincidence that Miatas are the most popular rental ride...

Great information and thank you!

I do plan on racing it before renting it, I just mentioned the PBOC race as an example of seat time.

I also have a crew of guys and a few girls entirely willing to work for food (I guess that's the benefit of being young, we're all broke and hungry :p ).

All great points about the true costs. I'll keep all of that in mind. Luckily running a Neon is VERY cheap for spare parts. Like you said though I will definitely be running the car myself first, then another driver who will be driving with me in some enduros, him and I will do an enduro or two to get it all sorted out so when a paying driver does come we will be good to go. Obviously a season doesn't have much time to really do all of that but my biggest goal is to at the very least run strongly at the NASA 8 hour. I've always been a huge fan of endurance racing.

Like I said though, really good points, I really have not put much thought into the true wear and tear it's causing and that I will end up paying for it SOMETIME. :023:

[Cobrar05]

make it a V8 car like mine and then you are into some real money.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Simon,

No disrespect intended...I love the initiative, but if you have to rent out your car to afford racing, you can't afford racing and you shouldn't do it.

An enduro rental needs to have NEW everything (hubs, rotors, pads, fluids, maybe clutch, tires, etc) and you need to keep on top of those things so you minimize the chance of a mechanical DNF. You also need to have spares, enough spares to get that car back on track WHEN (not if) an incident occures. Suspension, transmission, ECU, etc. You will need rain tires too. You will need a strong contract. You will need to set expectations. Feel the pain yet?

Rental rides that actually MAKE money, require drivers who are willing to pay real money for a seat. With that money comes expectations about service levels - and I am not sure you are ready for what that really means. It takes time to develop a good program. Trust me.

It's just really a HUGE risk for not much gain.

[lateapex911]

Yea, Andy hit it: Pleasing customers is dependent on setting, then meeting or exceeding expectations.

Now, Simon might be looking at another angle, the 'rent to buddies' angle, and he might just want to make sure he's covered. But, even so, it's all about setting expectations, covering your own ass, and when money changes hands, people get, you know, 'different'. ;)

[Simon T.]

make it a V8 car like mine and then you are into some real money.

I'm not trying to make money, there is no money in racing everyone knows that ;) just trying to do enduros and be as fair as possible for other drivers.


Simon,

No disrespect intended...I love the initiative, but if you have to rent out your car to afford racing, you can't afford racing and you shouldn't do it.

An enduro rental needs to have NEW everything (hubs, rotors, pads, fluids, maybe clutch, tires, etc) and you need to keep on top of those things so you minimize the chance of a mechanical DNF. You also need to have spares, enough spares to get that car back on track WHEN (not if) an incident occures. Suspension, transmission, ECU, etc. You will need rain tires too. You will need a strong contract. You will need to set expectations. Feel the pain yet?

Rental rides that actually MAKE money, require drivers who are willing to pay real money for a seat. With that money comes expectations about service levels - and I am not sure you are ready for what that really means. It takes time to develop a good program. Trust me.

It's just really a HUGE risk for not much gain.

I'm not doing it to FUND my racing, but do have in mind if done right I can at least not really spend too much on enduros. I've been collecting large amounts of spares as well but I've always been sort of a spare freak since my first car, there is nothing like going into the parts shed at home to get something you need. :p

I personally believe the people who will be working as mechanics for me are more than capable, they have experience, one has worked for OPM, one owns a performance shop, etc. We won't be a top notch professional team, but the prices in my head aren't even close to what they would charge. I have way too big of a guilty conscience to charge a lot for not enough. I just want to be fair, also the renter would know at least right now the car is just a fun basic car, it's not a front runner, it would suit someone looking to have fun or just starting out.

Thanks for the post though! It's all very helpful, keep it coming! :023:

[gran racing]

Simon, I kinda like where you're going with this and there are ways to make it work. A huge part of what you need to do with anyone is manage expectations, be very open with the level of prep and support you're talking about, then put all of that into writing along with crash damage liablity, labor costs, and other CYA things. Andy is absolutely right from the perspective of doing this as a true rental business, but I do not see you taking this down that path.


and a few girls

THIS is your key to success!!! :) Bring hot girls to help work on the car, be friendly to renters, and poof, jackpot - there you have it.

[Knestis]

Short, easy math answer...

It got to the point where was charging $2500/seat for 1/4 of a the VIR 13 or similar race, and my seat was costing me substantially more than that. I was subsidizing others' racing, which worked OK when the economy was good and it was a sellers' market. Now? Not so much.

Now, to be fair, I was paying a real pro shop (RGM in my sig line) to do the preparation. The car was RIGHT but it cost actual money.

Kirk (who will be a renter for enduros this year)

[Simon T.]

Simon, I kinda like where you're going with this and there are ways to make it work. A huge part of what you need to do with anyone is manage expectations, be very open with the level of prep and support you're talking about, then put all of that into writing along with crash damage liablity, labor costs, and other CYA things. Andy is absolutely right from the perspective of doing this as a true rental business, but I do not see you taking this down that path.



THIS is your key to success!!! :) Bring hot girls to help work on the car, be friendly to renters, and poof, jackpot - there you have it.

I can bring girls. Nothing like making a renting driver feel awesome then sitting in a mid pack Neon with an umbrella girl standing over him. :smilie_pokal:


Short, easy math answer...

It got to the point where was charging $2500/seat for 1/4 of a the VIR 13 or similar race, and my seat was costing me substantially more than that. I was subsidizing others' racing, which worked OK when the economy was good and it was a sellers' market. Now? Not so much.

Now, to be fair, I was paying a real pro shop (RGM in my sig line) to do the preparation. The car was RIGHT but it cost actual money.

Kirk (who will be a renter for enduros this year)

I've done so much adding up and trying to budget what my car will really cost to run. Like you said though your car is a much better prepared than mine, so my costs would be significantly less, I had $1000 or so in mind for the NASA 8 hour enduro and thought that may be too high for my car, I'm really not sure though and probably won't until I actually race it. The track day I did in it was more of a "what needs to be done" than a driving hard day.


Kirk (who will be a renter for enduros this year)

Are you saying you will be renting your car out still or looking for a car to rent? I know of a slow IT Neon with hot grid girls and windshield cleaners for rent later this year. :p

[lateapex911]

Simon, I kinda like where you're going with this and there are ways to make it work. A huge part of what you need to do with anyone is manage expectations, be very open with the level of prep and support you're talking about, then put all of that into writing along with crash damage liablity, labor costs, and other CYA things. Andy is absolutely right from the perspective of doing this as a true rental business, but I do not see you taking this down that path.



THIS is your key to success!!! :) Bring scantily clad, flirty hot girls to help work on the car, be friendly to renters, and poof, jackpot - there you have it.
Fixored. FlatOut should read this.
hahahaha

[gran racing]

Oh come on, that was so implied.

Playboy Rentals.....:smilie_pokal:

[Cobrar05]

my rule of thumb. i am bringing the car and taking care that its properly prepared. i am hauling it to the race track. i am providing whatever personel to do a given event.
i am responsible that the car be properly teched and legal.

with that in mind it seems fair to ask the other driver(s) to pay for the actual usage expenses. the consumables(tires, brakes, fuel) and the entry fees. i am still the one taking on the costs of all the wear and tear on the equipment in the end.

this is assuming I am driving. doesnt that seem fair?

[Matt93SE]

Seems more than fair to me since all of the intangibles (engine, clutch, transmission, suspension wear) aren't factored in and are pretty significant on a front-running car.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I've done so much adding up and trying to budget what my car will really cost to run. Like you said though your car is a much better prepared than mine, so my costs would be significantly less, I had $1000 or so in mind for the NASA 8 hour enduro and thought that may be too high for my car, I'm really not sure though and probably won't until I actually race it. The track day I did in it was more of a "what needs to be done" than a driving hard day.




So show us the math here. Are you saying that you think your 'cost' will be $1000 for the NASA 8 hour?

Are you starting with new hubs, pads and rotors? How many tires are you going to go through? New tires or take offs? One spin and they are corded. Extras? Full fluids before AND after a race like that...

Slap your spreadshet up here and we will learn-ya the REAL costs.... :)

And BTW, why are you considering renting? What is the end game?

[lateapex911]

I would ASSume (LOL) he's talking about charging 1000 per seat.
if you're using Hoosier, you're going to go through a set of fronts every 2.37 hours, 150 per tire x 6, plus mounting, hoping the rears go the whole way is $1000, I'd imagine, and just gas at $3.50 a gallon (if going cheap unleaded)
at an average speed of 75, (x 8 hrs), means 600 miles, /10MPG= 60 gallons, or a bit over $210, plus a set of pads ($100), an oil change ($40) so, right there you're up to an easy $1350, and that's not including hubs discs and the like (because I have no clue how much they cost$).
All up though it's an easy couple grand without thinking very hard.

[Simon T.]

So show us the math here. Are you saying that you think your 'cost' will be $1000 for the NASA 8 hour?

Are you starting with new hubs, pads and rotors? How many tires are you going to go through? New tires or take offs? One spin and they are corded. Extras? Full fluids before AND after a race like that...

Slap your spreadshet up here and we will learn-ya the REAL costs.... :)

And BTW, why are you considering renting? What is the end game?

No, my cost would be over $1000 especially after the entry fee, food, gas to get there and home, etc.

Here is some pricing I came up with:

-Rotors: $20.00 each...BUT...these are for Autozone specials, I'll need to see if they are good enough with race pads. I used them at a track day and they had no issues at all but like I said I wasn't pushing hard at all.
-Pads: $100 for all four at my current "deal."
-I haven't calculated hubs yet, they're brand new right now.
-Tires: Free, a co-driver is providing tires for enduros instead of money. I will have two mounted sets and one set of rains. I get tire mounting done for free from a local shop.
-Oil and fluids before every event I calculated $50.00.
-Fuel is still unknown, see below. I just put $300.00 though as a starting point.
-My "crew" is getting paid with food and drinks (non alcohol until the race is over of course) so I just figured $75-100 to feed them all, that's probably way too high but I like to over estimate some things.
-Depending on the clutch condition I'd change it before an 8 hour enduro. More than likely I WOULD just to be safe. A new clutch is $200.00. Installation is free I can do it myself.
-I'd also like to do a timing belt change and check other belts before a long enduro. $100 would cover the parts and even a new water pump if needed. I can do all that myself.

I have misc. spare parts for the car, I guess if I really wanted to make a profit I'd have to add some of what I spend on spares into rental costs but...I'd like to get a complete spare engine and a spare transmission, neither of which I have but both can be had fairly cheap, there are loads of Neons in local junk yards.

The reason I am renting is to help cover enduro costs really. If I could make a few bucks doing it, sweet, but that's not really my goal here. If someone came with spare parts for the car or provided something else, I wouldn't have a problem, such as my friend providing tires, that's fine with me I'm not looking to make renting my car a career.


I would ASSume (LOL) he's talking about charging 1000 per seat.
if you're using Hoosier, you're going to go through a set of fronts every 2.37 hours, 150 per tire x 6, plus mounting, hoping the rears go the whole way is $1000, I'd imagine, and just gas at $3.50 a gallon (if going cheap unleaded)
at an average speed of 75, (x 8 hrs), means 600 miles, /10MPG= 60 gallons, or a bit over $210, plus a set of pads ($100), an oil change ($40) so, right there you're up to an easy $1350, and that's not including hubs discs and the like (because I have no clue how much they cost$).
All up though it's an easy couple grand without thinking very hard.

We will be using R1s, so I'm not sure of their distance. That's a scary thought about the Hoosiers though. We talked about rotating at a certain point since the rears probably won't be that worn out.

Fuel wise I run 93 unleaded in the car. I'll also have to see what type of fuel mileage I get here, in November I used about a tank and a half for two hours of track time, but had a clogged cat from hell so that may change the MPG.

[JLawton]

I think going out just to have fun with some buddies is a great idea. You need to know your cost but I wouldn't get bogged down with too much detail if just doing it for fun with friends. I think the key is getting in writting what the agreement is on damage. It's some great seat time and you will learn a lot. If you have a good co-driver and a data acquisition system and can be a HUGE benefit for a new driver to compare data from the same car

Personally, if I was going to do an 3 enduro with friends I would just charge them tires and get a damage agreement.

I enjoy the enduros because of the "team" atmosphere. Just DO IT!!

[Simon T.]

I think going out just to have fun with some buddies is a great idea. You need to know your cost but I wouldn't get bogged down with too much detail if just doing it for fun with friends. I think the key is getting in writting what the agreement is on damage. It's some great seat time and you will learn a lot. If you have a good co-driver and a data acquisition system and can be a HUGE benefit for a new driver to compare data from the same car

Personally, if I was going to do an 3 enduro with friends I would just charge them tires and get a damage agreement.

I enjoy the enduros because of the "team" atmosphere. Just DO IT!!

Yeah I think my one friend providing tires will be a huge help especially to me, he's a Skip Barber instructor with a lot of other race experience so that will be a big help.

I've sort of worked on a damage agreement but don't know how to do it properly. I listed out prices for things damaged with an overall price if the car is completely totaled in a wreck.

[lateapex911]

I think going out just to have fun with some buddies is a great idea. You need to know your cost but I wouldn't get bogged down with too much detail if just doing it for fun with friends. I think the key is getting in writting what the agreement is on damage. It's some great seat time and you will learn a lot. If you have a good co-driver and a data acquisition system and can be a HUGE benefit for a new driver to compare data from the same car

Personally, if I was going to do an 3 enduro with friends I would just charge them tires and get a damage agreement.

I enjoy the enduros because of the "team" atmosphere. Just DO IT!!
So, Jeff, when are we doing an enduro?

[Greg Amy]

So, Jeff, when are we doing an enduro?
No kidding. I'm in, too, and I'll even toss in a few cases of beer to boot!

[Bill Miller]

I've sort of worked on a damage agreement but don't know how to do it properly. I listed out prices for things damaged with an overall price if the car is completely totaled in a wreck.

I'm not sure how you do this ahead of time. Having a wad-up price is one thing, but I don't know how you can pre-price damage. Even failure stuff. My suggestion would be to talk off-line w/ Kirk about setting up a contract that includes a damage agreement. He's been doing this for a few years now, and his it pretty well down. Having worked with him, I can't say enough good things about how the operation is run. I'm sure he will bring up things that you probably haven't considered.

Something I haven't seen in any of your costs, is what it's going to cost for your crew. You have to provide food and accommodations for them.

I'll also add something that another guy that I know that runs an enduro rental program had set up. Mind you, this is something that all of the drivers have to agree on. You take the total # of drivers and add 1 (e.g. 4 drivers + 1 = 5). In the event of damage, each driver pays 1/(#drivers + 1), and the person that was in the car at the time pays 2/(#drivers + 1). In the 4 driver example, each driver would pay 20% (1/5) of the damage bill, and the person in the car at the time would pay the extra share, or 40% (2/5). I'm not saying that this is a better or worse way to do it, just another option that I've seen used.

Then there are things like mechanical failures. Some are the result of use/abuse, and some are the result of defective parts. You need to have how you are going to handle those things spelled out up front, and make sure everyone involved understands. It's not so much about what is the best way to handle it, but more to the point about having it covered up front and making sure everyone understands and signs-off on it. The last thing you want is to create a situation that you didn't address. For example, lets say you have a hub failure that was the result of a defective part (and the forensics can be inconclusive). This hub failure causes a wheel to leave the car at a very inopportune time (can't imagine when it would be a good time for a wheel to leave the car), and the car ends up getting wadded up into a ball. I can tell you, there will be a lot of unhappy people if you have not already addressed how you will handle a case like that. A driver sure isn't going to want to eat the cost of the car if it was related to a defective part, and the car owner is not going to be happy if the driver feels no obligation to pay. Like I said, how you handle it is up to you, but you need to get it taken care of ahead of time, and everyone has to understand and agree to it. If you don't treat this like a business deal, and something goes south, it has the potential to get really ugly.

[callard]

I've been running enduros for 20 years now and have only lost a LOT of money. As Kirk knows, the car owner winds up subsidizing quite a bit.
One of the first lessons I learned was not to expect to sprint race and enduro race the same car. When (not if) the car gets wadded up you are out of the sprint racing scene until its replaced.
Your tire guy is a nice to have but you had better get real friendly with a guy who owns a frame machine and can stretch your car tomorrow. Then the body shop, then the paint shop while waiting for all them trick replacement parts to arrive via Fed Ex. Then re-assembly and testing. Whoops, you've missed the next couple Regionals. Oh, and your buddies seem to have other things planned when you need them. Checkbook renters don't solve any of these issues for you and create another collection problem even with an ironclad rental agreement.
Stick with the Regionals and look for another tub for a future enduro effort.
Chuck

[Knestis]

No kidding. I'm in, too, and I'll even toss in a few cases of beer to boot!

Me, too! Er, four...?

K

[Bill Miller]

Me, too! Er, four...?

K

I can bring the gumbo and the Yuengling! :023:

[JLawton]

Me, too! Er, four...?

K


I would love to do an enduro with the Saturn............. But I'm happy when I can get through a sprint race without something breaking!!! :blink:

[lateapex911]

I would love to do an enduro with the Saturn............. But I'm happy when I can get through a sprint race without something breaking!!! :blink:

FINE, we'll do it in my car.

(I can't WAIT to hear the responses to that, LOL)

[Knestis]

I'll just run around the room yelling, "RAAAAANG, RAAAAAAAANG!" at the top of my lungs instead...

K

[gran racing]

(I can't WAIT to hear the responses to that, LOL)

Ummm, Okay!!!

[tyler raatz]

Our basic rental rates for the ITA Civic,
our ITA Miata (2010 13hr :smilie_pokal:) and SM are pretty much the same
STL Miata is a bit more.
This is for a known winning package...

Single SARRC $1200
Double SARRC $1800
Standard ECR with SARRC $1000 over SARRC fee
ECR by itself $1500
ECR with 1 car owner as 2nd driver $850
ARRC or 3hr Enduro $2000
Mid Ohio 8hr $1500/paying driver, 4 drivers + tow fee
VIR 13 up to $1800/paying driver, 4 drivers
NJMP Devil in the dark 12hrs (dependant on tow cost) up to $1800/driver, 4 drivers
All drivers for the big enduros split food cost and lodging bill for the crew, crew pays zero to help us.
$2000 damage deposit paid in full before turning a wheel in the car, $12000 max responsibility for a totaled car.

I fully agree with what everyone else is saying. Get a year of racing under your belt, prove what the car can do, rent to buddies for cheap to start out. You will be amazed at the amount of work it takes to prep a front running enduro car, it is expensive and necessary to keep arive and drive renters coming back for more.

Tyler Raatz
-C&R Motorsports-
-Road Race gear Sports car rentals-

[lateapex911]

Tyler, thanks for sharing the info. One aspect that hasn't really been mentioned but can and does happen is, what happens when say I give you the up front $2000, and my fee, and the money for the crew food and lodging for an enduro, and the first driver stuffs it into the turn 11 wall at RA in some "I'm' pitting" screw up, and I'm left standing with my suit and helmet on, never having turned a wheel? (And, lets say the other driver was in for qualifying and the session got redflagged so I didn't turn a wheel then).

(I mention this, because it's an aspect of racing that sucks all around, but if you don't deal with it upfront, there can be tears shed after)

[callard]

what happens when say I give you the up front $2000, and my fee, and the money for the crew food and lodging for an enduro, and the first driver stuffs it
Easy. The beer party starts early for your team! :023:

[Simon T.]

Tyler, thanks for sharing the info. One aspect that hasn't really been mentioned but can and does happen is, what happens when say I give you the up front $2000, and my fee, and the money for the crew food and lodging for an enduro, and the first driver stuffs it into the turn 11 wall at RA in some "I'm' pitting" screw up, and I'm left standing with my suit and helmet on, never having turned a wheel? (And, lets say the other driver was in for qualifying and the session got redflagged so I didn't turn a wheel then).

(I mention this, because it's an aspect of racing that sucks all around, but if you don't deal with it upfront, there can be tears shed after)

That's the exact thought I had yesterday, I'm interested to see input on that.

Thanks for posting those prices Tyler that's a good comparison.

[Simon T.]

While we're on the cost subject, I've added up what I think is a good year budget, although it's horrifying.

I got a little under $10,000 for six races or so and that's not including towing costs, oil changes, extra parts, etc. It includes entry fees, tires, food, gas, brake pads, and that's about it. Does that sound right?

[lateapex911]

The "not includings" is far more significant:

The paper towels, brake kleen, bearings, hubs, pressure plates (while you're at it on the clutch), replaced mufflers, bodywork form the newb who t boned you in the corner at the end of the straight when he tried the 1 marker, the replaced windshield from the stone that got thrown up, the replaced master switch that fried on grid and cost you that race, (and the wire and connectors and the special crimp too you got because you thought that was the problem, the fuel filters, the new fuel system because the tank has rust, the blown out tire on the tow vehicle, the gloves and pads for your crew guys, the containers to hold all the spares that go to the track, ....and all the stupid two and one day shipping charges to get the part that just snapped when you went to load the car shipped to you in time for your race so you don't 'waste' the time you've locked into taking off from work and the entry fee......should I go on?

[Knestis]

To Jake's question, that's kind of how it goes...

The problem is that for the team/car owner, almost all of the costs are sunk at that point. Thank goodness we've never had that happen. Well, we DID have it happen when Greg got Miata'd the first time on lap 4 or whatever it was, but Cameron and the guys got us back in after just a few minutes...

That's also why as the owner, my default preference is to go last in the rotation, to help assure that everyone gets some track time just in case. The wacky thing is that, over and over, my co-drivers have elected to put me in FIRST, the thought being that they were less likely to get caught up in the early silliness.

K

[Simon T.]

The "not includings" is far more significant:

The paper towels, brake kleen, bearings, hubs, pressure plates (while you're at it on the clutch), replaced mufflers, bodywork form the newb who t boned you in the corner at the end of the straight when he tried the 1 marker, the replaced windshield from the stone that got thrown up, the replaced master switch that fried on grid and cost you that race, (and the wire and connectors and the special crimp too you got because you thought that was the problem, the fuel filters, the new fuel system because the tank has rust, the blown out tire on the tow vehicle, the gloves and pads for your crew guys, the containers to hold all the spares that go to the track, ....and all the stupid two and one day shipping charges to get the part that just snapped when you went to load the car shipped to you in time for your race so you don't 'waste' the time you've locked into taking off from work and the entry fee......should I go on?

Who wants to buy a Neon? :shrug:

[Flyinglizard]

I figure the Chumpcar VW cost at $200per hr. The ITB, cost about 300perhr. The tires are most of the varience.
The Dot 300 tread wear rating, Dunlop DZ 101, last about 10 hr on the LF on my 2000# car.
I have around 10 real nice , real world drivers, (from all over the US.) If they dont get to drive, they get a credit at the next race. If they wreck the car, they fix it. Simple. I had my first DNF last week( 16 yrs) in the B car, when a driver tossed the alt/water pump belt and drove it until it stopped moving. I bumped the drivers around into the A car and all had some seat time.
I will next install large warning lights for overhot, and charging system.
The rental rates are usually 850 per seat, for twin 7hr races.( 2 hrs per day), $950 for the 14 hr @ Sebring, (3 hrs)
Fuel is added at about 80gal of 100LL av gas.
The car gets all new front hubs,axles, etc every 20hrs. The pre-prep is about 2- 4 days shop time.
One car, has 4 partners that pay into a fund for tires, repairs, etc.This car is a contender for overall win. The stints are 2hrs. (max time allowed)
One car is a straight rental. Priority is Fun, stints of 1 hr.
The VW has been the cheapest cost per hour of any of the cars that I have had. Parts are cheap and available.
I am scared to do the actual cost accounting. Quick numbers are about $1000 loss per race.
MM

[tyler raatz]

[QUOTE=Knestis;317839]To Jake's question, that's kind of how it goes...

The problem is that for the team/car owner, almost all of the costs are sunk at that point. Thank goodness we've never had that happen. Well, we DID have it happen when Greg got Miata'd the first time on lap 4 or whatever it was, but Cameron and the guys got us back in after just a few minutes...

That's also why as the owner, my default preference is to go last in the rotation, to help assure that everyone gets some track time just in case. The wacky thing is that, over and over, my co-drivers have elected to put me in FIRST, the thought being that they were less likely to get caught up in the early silliness.

K[/QUOTE

I was hoping you would answer this for me, thanks.
Kirk is right, before the green ever drops, the car owner is out the entry fee, multiple sets of tires, 150 gal+ fuel, towing and housing expenses, tons of money spent in meticulous prep of the car, etc. It is not cheap to do it right.
So as an owner, I do not offer refunds in the event of an accident. It is important to choose your drivers wisely for the big races, drivers should trust in eachothe to take care of the equipment and make it to the finish. I suppose there could be an agreement amongst the renters that if driver A wads up the car 1st stint out, he partially reimburses drivers B & C. This however would be totaly amongst the renters only and never a part of MY rental agreement.

[JLawton]

While we're on the cost subject, I've added up what I think is a good year budget, although it's horrifying.

I got a little under $10,000 for six races or so and that's not including towing costs, oil changes, extra parts, etc. It includes entry fees, tires, food, gas, brake pads, and that's about it. Does that sound right?


Are you talking an enduro season?

See my note on your other thread. I was able to do a full season for $5K in a 944 when I first started. Was I slow? Hell yeah!! but I was out there having fun and learning. I'd have to look back but I think I had a couple of seasons in my ITB rabbitt for about the same. But I was also lucky I had no major failures or crashes.

You don't EVEN want to know what I spent this past season to win the NARRC championship.............. :blink:

If you want to do the responsible thing financially? Don't race.......... We're all whacked to be doing this..........

[Simon T.]

Are you talking an enduro season?

See my note on your other thread. I was able to do a full season for $5K in a 944 when I first started. Was I slow? Hell yeah!! but I was out there having fun and learning. I'd have to look back but I think I had a couple of seasons in my ITB rabbitt for about the same. But I was also lucky I had no major failures or crashes.

You don't EVEN want to know what I spent this past season to win the NARRC championship.............. :blink:

If you want to do the responsible thing financially? Don't race.......... We're all whacked to be doing this..........

No I added that up not even including enduros, that was just six IT races and also included my school weekend and the cost of what else I need to finish the car which isn't much though probably around $300 worth so that didn't really make the price so high. lol

I really don't care about being fast out of the box, I just want to race! I've been trying too long!

Well I'm already semi-irresponsible for sure for even considering it :p. Sometimes the smart side of my head tries to prevent me from doing things, it probably won't ever win but...

$5k for a season is more reasonable, the only thing that made the price go up was the driver school I'm doing is in Daytona which is a good distance, if I get waived a second school sweet, if not, the next one I've seen is in Homestead...$$$ Road Atlanta is only 45 minutes away from home so that's nothing, I just want to be sure I complete my licensing requirements after school which is two regionals right? Then four if you want a national license?

I always feel there is a lump to go over and then it's easier to plan out. It's the getting the car finished, the schools, etc. that make it sound so hard! Once all that is done I'll sleep in a tent at the track and eat hot dogs all weekend to save some money and race. :023:

[lateapex911]

Hot dogs? Living large, you are! Ramen noodles over an open fire is the food of the young Jedi. ;)

[Simon T.]

Hot dogs? Living large, you are! Ramen noodles over an open fire is the food of the young Jedi. ;)

I've tried to force myself to like Ramen noodles and just cannot do it. :p Every now and then I can eat them, I have loads of packs just in case times get real hard though. :023:

[Bob Roth]

Having done the enduro owner thing since the early '90's, here's a couple of comments. I don't think there is a problem using your sprint car for enduro's as long as you are willing to accept the compromizes needed to make it a capable enduro car such as a heavy large fuel cell. My enduro car has always been my sprint car, in fact I always run a sprint race in my car before the enduro just to make sure its a reliable car and ready to go. Something that you will have to commit to though if you are going to enduro race your car is an aggressive package of maintenance and spares. Something like an engine and transmission rebuild every season, to keep ahead of the gremlins. The point is, if you are going to be asking people to commit money and time to run in your car, you need to accept the responsibility of doing everything you can to assure that the car will be reliable. Its no fun for anybody to go to the effort, then break a hub, clutch, axle, header etc. An endurance race is like planning to run a race season with no repairs and maintenance. If you don't prep needed to make that happen, you don't have fun.

On the money thing, I must be hanging with the wrong crowd but its really hard to find IT racers with the money to do their own racing, much less drop $2k for an enduro weekend. Be prepared to underwrite the cost of your friends. At the same time, I figure that most of my drivers cannot afford to write a check for $6k if they wadd your car up so I don't worry about insurance anyway, what I do worry about is how long they havebeen racing and what's their record. If the driver has 30 races under their belt, few or no DNF's with no major hits, they will probably be fine. Beware of the rental driver who is a 2 year wonder who divebombs every corner, no amount of insurance protects you from someone that doesn't get the maxim "to finish first, first you have to finish". I think picking co drivers who have demonstrated ability to always bring the car back is the biggest success factor in endurance racing. I'd far prefer having a driver in my car who pays $1200 and always brings it back straight than a driver who writes a $2500 check and who's hard on equipment.

The last thing, unless you are looking at this as a business, select co drivers that you like and are pleasent to be around. Its a team thing, figure out how to find drivers who will all be smiling at the end of the weekend regardless where you place. It tough to win these races, if you can't win every one, you might as well have fun.

I guess my point is, the only reason to run your own car is if you truly believe you can do better organization, prep and development than the guy you would rent from. Unless you own a race prep shop, its almost impossible to make money renting rides out. If the idea of running your own car is that it will be cheap racing for you, I don't think its possible. If you want to save money, my suggestion you will be money ahead renting a ride.