Rd Atl Dbl National, March 18-20, 2011

[Butch Kummer]

Just got word from Road Atlanta that they were able to work things out, so there IS at test day on Thursday, March 17!

There is no pre-Registration for the Test Day but we'll post more Test Day info at www.AtlantaSCCA.org (http://www.atlantascca.org/) shortly.

Butch

= = = = =

Proposed schedule (registration should be up on MSR in early February):

Group 1 - EP, FP, GTL, HP, SRF (split start for SRF)
Group 2 - SM
Group 3 - AS, GT1, GT2, GT3, STO, T1
Group 4 - CSR, DSR, FA, FB, FE, FM
Group 5 - SSB, SSC, STU, T2, T3
Group 6 - F5, FC, FF, FV, S2
Group 7 - ECR & Pro-IT

Thu, March 17
. gates open at 5:00 PM, move in until 9:00 PM

Fri, March 18
. consecutive 25 minute qualifying for Sat race
. 30 minute Group 7 qualifying
. consecutive 25 minute qualifying for Sun race

Sat, March 19
. consecutive 10 minute qualifying for Sat race
. 20 minute Group 7 qualifying
. 18 lap National races for Groups 1-2
. lunch break
. 18 lap National races for Groups 3-6
. 90 minute Group 7 race (Pro-IT called at 45 minutes)

Sun, March 20
. consecutive 10 minute qualifying for Sun race
. PDX sessions during county-mandated Quiet Time
. 18 lap National races for Groups 1-6

I monitor this site so let me know if you have any questions.

[Simon T.]

Oooooo. ECR that weekend. I hope I'm licensed by then.

[bhudson]

Butch - Please explain the Pro IT/ECR race. You can PM me if you wish, or just send me an email. You know my address.

[seckerich]

I can fill you in a little Bob. It was approved at Jekyll to allow other series races to be run inside an ECR. Many regions were not doing the ECR because of the lack of track time available in their schedules. This would allow the regions to run a Pro IT, CCPS, etc on track at the same time as the ECR and then bring them in after they reach the distance of the shorter race and the rest of the ECR cars just continue for the ECR race distance. Win - win because they both get included in the schedule. We will be looking at this format to include ECR and CCPS in the future.

[GKR_17]

Strange. So if you run the ECR can you get points in both events?

[JeffYoung]

Grafton, not sure how that would be possible with the pit stop rules being different.

[Butch Kummer]

Different? Yes. Strange? Maybe so.

I need to run the budget numbers, but for those that want to run both I'm thinking we'll offer it with a decent discount: ECR entry fee + 50% of the Pro-IT fee (the part that goes to prize money) + maybe $50. We also need to work out some details, mainly about Impound when a Pro-IT winner is still on the track running the ECR, but I think we can figure that out.

If we wanted to run an ECR as part of the Double National weekend the only way to make it work was to run it on Friday afternoon. This way we're taking two less-than-fully-subscribed series and putting them on the track at the same time. Personally I think this is a more palatable option, but I'm open to suggestions otherwise.

[Butch Kummer]

Grafton, not sure how that would be possible with the pit stop rules being different.

CCPS requires a two-minute pit stop, but Pro-IT doesn't require any. Run the first 45 minutes (the Pro-IT), stop at 46+ minutes to satisfy the ECR rule, then continue to the checkers.

[JeffYoung]

Got it. And I do think it is a good idea, BUT I don't see how it will work for CCPS/ECR.

[adoyle]

Butch, I think this a worth trying. I appericiate thinking outside the box and offering an event with a different format. I know some people can't due change. Because of the format with the double National and enduro, it is an event that our team may bring a couple of cars too. The reason I might not is because of my scedule and not the event. Again, I applaude you for doing something different. There are other racing opportunities, and if SCCA does not change and innovate we will continue to loose competitors.

[GKR_17]

Got it. And I do think it is a good idea, BUT I don't see how it will work for CCPS/ECR.

I think it could work for a combined CCPS/ECR, but with the different pit rules the racer would be at a disadvantage in at least one. I have not run in the CCPS, so correct me if I'm wrong.

ECR requires (1) five minute pit stop (and allows fueling), typical races are 90 minutes
CCPS requires (1) two minute stop (and no fueling), typical races are 45 minutes

So in theory a competitor could run the ECR, have a five minute stop (with no fuel added) in the first half of the race and meet the rules for both events. That would mean and extra 3 minutes in the pits for the CCPS finish though.

Alternatively, the racer could pit for 2 minutes in the first 45, and then five more sometime later. Basically lose one lap for the ECR.

Neither is really a great idea, but there are some folks who run both series, and it's often better in points to finish a lap down than not enter at all.

[TomL]

There was a bit of discussion about how to handle the different pit stop rules between ECR and CCPS at the Jekyll meeting. There are several options. Grafton's option (a 5 minute, no fueling pit stop) wouldn't need a rule change, but penalizes your CCPS finish and wouldn't work for someone who couldn't make 1.5 hours without fuel.

A minor rule change in ECR and/or CCPS rules could eliminate nearly all the problems. Possible tweaks are: 1) Change CCPS rules to also require a five minute stop and allow fueling. Then everyone would have the same pit time, with the only (very minor) disparity being that a double-dipper would have to make his pit stop in the first half of the race, while the ECR-only person could do it anytime. 2) Change ECR rules to a 2-minute stop. With fueling and driver changes, this would probably be a bad idea. 3) Require both an ECR and CCPS stop (i.e., a 2-minute, no fuel stop in the first half and a 5 minute stop any time - in the second half, obviously). Any of these changes would only need to apply in combined ECR/CCPS races, so each series would retain their regular rules for stand alone events.

I think the first option makes the most sense. As for option 2, I don't think that trying to rush a driver change and refuel into two minutes is something we ought to do. The leisurely ECR pit stops have worked well for years - why change? I think the third option is overkill. There is no earthly reason to have two stops in a 90 minute race, except as a way to eliminate any disparities. And it still doesn't eliminate the first option's slight disparity of the double-dippers having to take their five-minute stop in the first half of the race, while ECR-onlies can do it any time.

[Mike Mackaman]

Steve, Butch, whoever else, the Pro-IT/Ecr is genius! Sure it double dips the competitors, but this should make everyone happy. As someone who used to be very fund limited and look for ways to maximize my finishes per entry fee, do you get credit for two finishes if you go the full distance?

Mike

[Butch Kummer]

As someone who used to be very fund limited and look for ways to maximize my finishes per entry fee, do you get credit for two finishes if you go the full distance?

Mike

There are separate sanction numbers for both the ECR and the Pro-IT, so anyone that signs up for both can get credit for two races towards keeping their license.

Registration should be open soon (we've gotten all approvals are now waiting on sanction numbers from Topeka). ECR only is $375, Pro-IT only is $275, "both" option is $550 (because of the Pro-IT prize money).

[Butch Kummer]

Just wanted to let you know the Supps, Schedule, and Registration links are now available at www.AtlantaSCCA.org (http://www.atlantascca.org/).

Although they are working to at least make the afternoon avilable for testing, at this time Road Atlanta is not able to offer any test sessions on Thursday (3/17). We'll update the Atlanta Region website if that changes, but you can also contact Road Atlanta directly.

It has minimal impact (pun intended) on you guys, but we also swapped groups 2 & 3 to make it easier for the SM guys to double/triple-dip.

See y'all at the track...

[chuck baader]

Butch, schedule shows Pro-It as group 8, but registration shows is as group 1. Clarification, please. Chuck

[Butch Kummer]

The schedule is correct (Group 8, races Saturday afternoon). There are other problems with the Registration List so I'll add this one to the list.

Registration List should now be correct. Please let me know if you find something else amiss...

[chuck baader]

Butch, the only problem I see is the inability to practice/bed brakes since this is basically the first race of the season. Can't do this during the qualifying session. Suggestions, please...or...hardship practice allowance? Chuck

[Simon T.]

Oooooo. ECR that weekend. I hope I'm licensed by then.

High hopes...you fail!

I'll be there doing the PDX. :p

[Butch Kummer]

Butch, the only problem I see is the inability to practice/bed brakes since this is basically the first race of the season. Can't do this during the qualifying session. Suggestions, please...or...hardship practice allowance? Chuck

You've got two qualifying sessions - 30 minutes on Friday and 20 minutes on Saturday. As of this afternoon Road Atlanta has NOT given up on getting at least a partial day on Thursday for testing.

If none of that works out you can always terrorize your neighbors. :rolleyes:

[Butch Kummer]

Just got word from Road Atlanta that they were able to work things out, so there IS at test day on Thursday, March 17!

There is no pre-Registration for the Test Day but we'll post more Test Day info at www.AtlantaSCCA.org (http://www.atlantascca.org/) shortly.

[pitbull113]

are there really enough spec miatas to warrant their own run group? seems like they could be combined with other classes and have 6 groups like last year plus an enduro :shrug:

[Rabbit07]

Just got word from Road Atlanta that they were able to work things out, so there IS at test day on Thursday, March 17!

There is no pre-Registration for the Test Day but we'll post more Test Day info at www.AtlantaSCCA.org (http://www.atlantascca.org/) shortly.

Butch,

For a guy who is bringing a brand new build to shake down 750 miles from home, this is great news!

Thanks!

[Butch Kummer]

are there really enough spec miatas to warrant their own run group? seems like they could be combined with other classes and have 6 groups like last year plus an enduro :shrug:

Short answer - yes. We've averaged 26.3 SM cars at this National over the past three years.

Longer answer - who would you like to put with them? Other cars (SSB & SSC instance) run similar lap times but do it in very different ways. Deserved or not, there's also the "Smash Miata" perception at play (see Turn 1 on Sunday at Sebring Double National in January). Giving SM a separate run group not only attracts more SM drivers but also is appealing to those that are normally grouped with them at other region's events. Finally, splitting SM & STU into separate groups encourages double-dipping from guys that want additional track time.

And you can't compare this event to our March car counts in the past (averaging 151.7 National cars over the last three years) because this is the first year we've done a Double National. I'm thinking we'll have 180-200 cars, which pretty much demands six National run groups to fit everybody on the track.

And you have an ECR on Saturday, so what's the concern?

[SPiFF]

Longer answer - who would you like to put with them?

The obvious answer is ``anyone but "me"``!! :D

[Butch Kummer]

The obvious answer is ``anyone but "me"``!! :D

Which is the same answer to the question, "We've got too many classes, so which ones should we consolidate?" :rolleyes:

[pitbull113]

Butch I guess my main concern it seems like the IT guys are getting the short end of the stick. I can either run the Pro IT race or the enduro with a payout for my half way finish. But I'm really not getting track time for both. I realize my reg fee will be cut for running both but I'd like to run both races seperately. I'm also concerned that if I want to run just the Pro IT race half way thru the enduro my race is over,I have no cool down lap (not a big deal) but I and a bunch of other Pro IT racers have to get to the pits safely all at the same time while the enduro is still going on. Now honestly I don't know the layout of road atlanta so this might not be a problem but at some tracks like the sebring long course this would be dangerous. Also if I'm running just the PRO IT race I have to deal with other cars that aren't in my race.

As far as the wreck at the sebring national goes that would not have happened if there were a true split start instead of telling the sm front row to lay back (which they didn't). Doesn't seem right that every other class has to deal with out of class cars in their race except the sm guys.

[Butch Kummer]

Butch I guess my main concern it seems like the IT guys are getting the short end of the stick. ...

Doesn't seem right that every other class has to deal with out of class cars in their race except the sm guys.

Steve - remember that it IS primarily a (Double) National weekend. In the past we've run Pro-IT (and now ECR) to help make ends meet but we've also been subjected to complaints from the National drivers about having to "share track time" with IT drivers. Those complaints usually go away when I explain what entry fees would be without the IT guys there, but we still get them from time to time.

The cool-down lap for the Pro-IT cars is the biggest concern I have about the combination ECR/Pro-IT experiment but it allows us to run both events on Saturday instead of having to run one on Friday afternoon (which was my original plan). I don't know how it will work but I know the N-club does it successfully and I'm confident their drivers aren't any smarter and/or more talented than ours.

I agree the SM/T3 deal at Sebring could have been avoided with a true split start or with some common sense displayed by the front row of the SM group. One is a reasonable expectation, the other is not. :rolleyes:

As far as combining SM with other classes, I'm open to suggestions for classes that are willing to do so (even with a split start which gets shot to hell during a FCY). I'm expecting upwards of 40 SMs that weekend on a track that allows a maximum of 67. It's way back at the beginning of this thread, but the current groups are:

1 - EP, FP, GTL, HP, SRF (SRF split start)
2 - SM
3 - AS, GT1, GT2, GT3, STO, T1
4 - CSR, DSR, FA, FB, FE, FM
5 - SSB, SSC, STU, T2, T3
6 - F5, FC, FF, FV, S2
7/8 - Pro-IT & ECR

Oh yes - and based on historical averages I'm thinking we'll have 20 or so Pro-IT cars and about the same number of ECR cars.

How would YOU do it if you were in charge?

[pitbull113]

I guess you can't make everyone happy all the time. I guess the problem is trying to fit too much in one weekend, but I realize this helps keep the reg. fees down. I did not know your expecting 40 spec miatas I was going by last years numbers which were closer to 25 which is why I asked if they really needed their own run group. But as you stated this is a double national unlike last years single. Only 20 IT cars and 20 enduro? Guys we need to represent better!! I guess I'm spoiled down here in CFR. 20 cars in ITA alone for most events. Not knowing all the numbers involved I could in no way come up with something better. In fact even knowing the numbers I probably couldn't which is why I don't envy you or any of the other people who do what you do so others can race.

[R2 Racing]

Will be signing up for the double National in my FP Integra later today. Can't wait!

Chuck - You running the Pro IT or the ECR?

[Butch Kummer]

I guess you can't make everyone happy all the time. I guess the problem is trying to fit too much in one weekend, but I realize this helps keep the reg. fees down. I did not know your expecting 40 spec miatas I was going by last years numbers which were closer to 25 which is why I asked if they really needed their own run group. But as you stated this is a double national unlike last years single. Only 20 IT cars and 20 enduro? Guys we need to represent better!! I guess I'm spoiled down here in CFR. 20 cars in ITA alone for most events. Not knowing all the numbers involved I could in no way come up with something better. In fact even knowing the numbers I probably couldn't which is why I don't envy you or any of the other people who do what you do so others can race.

Rather than "trying to fit too much" I believe we're "trying to fit as much as possible" into each weekend. There certainly are those that want dedicated sessions for just their class, but you need to be willing to pay for that. Pro F2000 and (new for 2011) Pro F1600 have done just that for FC and FF drivers that tired of the "alphabet soup" of the typical SCCA weekend and they've been very successful to date. I also believe their entry fees are approaching $1000 per weekend if they're not over that already.

The GCR requires that we offer a minimum of 45 minutes practice/qualifying time for a single National weekend and a combined 70 minutes for a Double National. The fees to National are also higher for a National weekend, so that's why many regions (including CFR) have started combining Enduros or other "one-off" groups with their National weekends while other regions have stopped hosting Nationals altogether. Atlanta Region and Road Atlanta have strong ties to the Runoffs, so we're doing as much as possible to help National racing be successful in our area.

Is SCCA trying to be too much to too many (i.e. - do we have too many classes?)Maybe so, but I have no (or at least limited) control over that so I'll work within the rules as currently dictated. One concept I floated in jest but which has some merit is to allocate equal portions of the weekend's cost to each run group. As an example, let's say we need to make $60,000 per weekend to keep the lights on so if we have six run groups we charge each group $10,000. If you have fifty cars in your groups that's $200 each, but if you only have ten... well, you do the math. :)

I do believe that we (as race organizers) are better off explaining why decisions are made the way they are and I'm always open to suggestions on how we can offer a better product. More than once I've tried new ideas or changed the make-up and/or order of run groups based on input I've gotten from this and other forums I participate in. One thing I hope you'll NEVER hear me say is, "But we've never done it that way before!" :D

See y'all at the track...

[srt4racing]

Butch
I want to again thank you for taking my call today, and just so you know the fact that you are doing a dbl NAT & and ECR is THE reason we are working to make the event with two cars.
Thank you again for thinking outside the box for our club, hoping the stars align and to see you on the track

[chuck baader]

Butch, when will the schedule be updated to show the practice day? Thanks, Chuck

[Butch Kummer]

Butch, when will the schedule be updated to show the practice day? Thanks, Chuck

Do you need me to check your tire pressures as well, Chuck? :rolleyes:

http://www.roadatlanta.com/ev_scca/2011-MarchTestSchedule.pdf

[chuck baader]

Could you please, Butch. All my friends are using walkers and wheel chairs and have a hard time with the hill.:happy204:Chuck

[Butch Kummer]

Just a reminder that early registration for the March 18-20 Double National / ECR / Pro-IT / PDX weekend at Road Atlanta closes at noon EST on Monday, March 14. I'll also remind you that funds will not be deposited until after the event and refunds are automatic for no-shows, so if you're even thinking about attending there's absolutely no financial risk to going ahead and registering now.

Links to the Supps, Schedule, Test Day info and registration system (there's no pre-registration for Thursday's Test Day) can be found at www.AtlantaSCCA.org (http://www.AtlantaSCCA.org).

See y'all at the track...

[chuck baader]

Kevin, missed your question....yes, Pro-IT...bring your "A" car and we can play. Chuck

[tom_sprecher]

It looks like the weather will be beautiful for the event. 77 for the high and sunny. :)

If you plan to be there don't forget registration closes at noon EST on Monday, March 14. That's tomorrow.

[chuck baader]

I am really disappointed at the turn out in Pro-IT...great weather, great track, why? Chuck