NARRC 2011 all races count??? [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

Andy Bettencourt

01-21-2011, 02:22 PM

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http://narrc.com/rules.html

Darn....with 12 races (11 + double points runoffs) I would have
hoped that we could drop a couple, only counting the best 9 or so...
it is going to be difficult for everyone to make all these races, and so
the championship becomes more of a participation award

or I am missing a line in the rules?

.

You are not. I wrote e-mail after e-mail after e-mail to the NARRC Committee about how bad of a decision I thought that was. They refuse to correct it no matter what the drivers say they want. I refuse to believe that a series that could end up in an 'attendance award' helps the series one single bit.

I told them, they refused.

Write your letters I guess. [email protected]

I suggested the best 8 of 12 races.

I even offered to RUN the NARRC series and get a committee together...if there were voting members who really didn't give a crap about the series or their votes. No response. Sad really. I bet the NARRC and Pro IT could join forces up here in the Northeast and really put something great together.

ner88

01-21-2011, 03:37 PM

Not totally true Andy, I was more than willing to turn it over! I even suggested it to you!

lawtonglenn

01-21-2011, 05:07 PM

.
Letter written to [email protected]. Everyone please feel free to
copy and send under your own name.

"Dear NARRC Committee:

I think it is a mistake to count all 12 races (11 + double points runoff) for
the championship. This opens the very real possibility that the championship will
become a prize for perfect attendance. In my opinion, that would degrade the
importance of a NARRC championship, now and in future years.

I recommend that the championship points be changed to "the sum of the points
earned in the best 8 finishes".

Respectfully Submitted,

Glenn Lawton
GSMmotorsports
#14 ITS RX7
NERRC ITS Champion 2010 / 2009 / 2008
NERRC STU Champion 2010
NARRC ITS 2nd-2010 / 3rd-2009"

.

dtanthon

01-21-2011, 06:26 PM

7 weekends for 11 events (NARRC Runoffs is double points)

1) Rounds 1&2 on May 7-8 at Pocono hosted by NNJ Double (w/Pro IT)
2) Rounds 3&4 on May 28-29 at NHMS hosted by NER (Double)
3) Round 5 on June 18 at LRP hosted by NER (Single)
4) Round 6 on 6 July 2 at LRP hosted by MoHud (w/NNJ) (Single)
5) Rounds 7&8 on July 23-24 at WGI hosted by Glen (Double (w/Pro IT))
6) Rounds 9&10 on August 20-21 at NJMP Thunderbolt hosted by NNJ & SJR (Double)
7) Round 11 September 30-October 1 at LRP hosted by NYR (Double Points)

make it so you drop a weekend or 2 not by events.

Also: NARRC winner stickers for 2011 - do we want a smaller version of the NARRC oval with a 2011 winner rocker on the bottom? I'll have what ever we decide at Pocono then get them to the regions so we can have these at each event.

Dano77

01-21-2011, 07:09 PM

So what happened to 50% plus one to qualify fror the championship? Oh yeah and you need more than xx point to qualify as well. Seems as though the rules have about as much stability as water,or are we taking notes from the NASCAR play book and changing the system just when we figured it out.

Dan
2010 11 races 11 wins,no NARRC Championship.
Missed something in the rules about qualifing for a championship

ner88

01-21-2011, 07:20 PM

No more points to qualify. Hey Dan, there's a seat on the NARRC committee waiting for you. ;)
Speaking of seats......There is a drivers rep. seat available on the committee! ANYONE??

lateapex911

01-21-2011, 07:24 PM

What's the reasoning for the rules package? Who's on the committee?
I'll admit, that most years I don't bother running for the NARRC championship. (OK, I did try once), but I can tell you any temptation has been removed now. (But, I'm probably not the guy that they're trying to attract.)
Still, it's really just a 'show up most often' trophy now. I just don't see the depth of drivers to have a real competition over so many rounds.

CRallo

01-21-2011, 11:30 PM

Some say participation, some would say consistency...

mossaidis

01-22-2011, 12:58 AM

No more points to qualify. Hey Dan, there's a seat on the NARRC committee waiting for you. ;)
Speaking of seats......There is a drivers rep. seat available on the committee! ANYONE??

EDIT: how up to date is this committee page? http://www.narrc.com/committee.html

Which position is currently open?

Andy Bettencourt

01-22-2011, 09:21 AM

The position of Divers Rep is open. I resigned this past winter when I saw the rules package developed by the committee with (what appeared to me) to be virtually zero consideration from driver input.

The committee is made up of the RE and Race Chairman of each of the Regions that make up the NARRC Series. In MOST cases, these people don't race anymore and in my opinion, are not in touch with the realities and economics of todays racer landscape.

I have indeed volunteered to take over the NARRC Series, it's admin, the race scheduling, etc but only Jerry even commented. I figured that if they didn't really care to listen to the drivers, then I was wasting my time and effort.

Andy Bettencourt

01-22-2011, 09:22 AM

Some say participation, some would say consistency...

Take a look at the results from 2010 and tell me that....

JLawton

01-22-2011, 10:01 AM

I "thought" last year it was the same thing right up until the beginning of the season when they threw in "the best of" part??

CRallo

01-22-2011, 11:49 AM

Take a look at the results from 2010 and tell me that....

No matter what, participation will be a factor... Atleast this way a two course horse, or someone that either wins or breaks/wrecks every race won't be able to steal away the championship.

From the NARRC committee's point of view, I'm sure there are those who believe that such a requirement will encourage people to attend more events and therefore bring more money to the series. The 64 dollar question is... will it turn off more people than it encourages to enter more events?

That said, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and speaking for the other side... I am mostly undecided at this point

StephF

01-22-2011, 12:00 PM

Andy Bettencourt

01-22-2011, 02:04 PM

Is NARRC even relevant anymore? :shrug:

Seems like it had more stature in days of old. Now, it feels like NERRC has gained some momenteum and NARRC is falling off.
Maybe because of the way the NARRC rules have gotten to be??
Just my perception of it I guess......

Steph,

To me, the NERRC is a Championship you win either by accident or just by doing NHMS as a local. No disrespect intended but it's a one-track deal.

The NARRC has fallen off in recent years IMHO because there were too many events. This years schedule is dang near perfect - except there are no drops.

Chris,

Requiring 5 events minimum, 8 max eliminates any one-trick ponys - requires you to go to a few tracks to win.

If I were king, there would be no more than 2 events at any one track and in order to get to a Championship, you would have to do 5 events - and then that would require at least 3 tracks.

This year - as always - the Pocono race is on Mothers Day weekend. Tough to 'require' eveyone to be at that race. Or else you are potentially 600 points down with no way to make them up. Just doesn't make sense. We have to allow for people to have real lives. Look at last years points and see who actually ran all the races.

I like quality vs quantity...now there is a point where they can meet - and I think that is 8 of 12 races. Some classes were won by people who never won a race. No disrepect to Lawton, but he only won one race. He ran more than double the events that everyone else ran. Now he is damn fast and deserves to be Champion, but he is the exception to the rule. There are some week Champions in there - and this new points system only promotes that more.

Devil's Advocate or not, we have to ask ourselves what we want NARRC to be - if anything. What makes it a 'strong' Championship? Lot's of tracks, lots of members from all over the Northeast and full fields. How do you do that? I submit it's NOT by having peple look at the schedule in Jan, KNOW that they can't get to 11 or 12 races and choose something else. But if it were attainable or they had 4 events they knew they were going to and only needed to go to one more double to make an impact on points...then you might ave something.

ulfelder

01-22-2011, 03:22 PM

I'm with Andy. I was hoping to focus on NARRC this year (a rarity for me; I've always just planned my race calendar according to which weekends were free), but spending Mother's Day Weekend at Pocono is an absolute, lead-pipe-cinch, 100%, cue-the-"Odd-Couple"-theme non-starter for me.

I understand how tough it is for a region to grasp, then hold, a race, so you won't catch me whining about the fact there's an event that weekend. But to make it a points-paying race in a series in which there are no drops, well, that's disappointing.

Other than this lousy rule, this year's NARRC schedule is damn near perfect. I suppose you could grouse that 3 races are at LRP and none at NJMP-Lightning, but the organizers have done a fine job spreading things around geographically and by date. More's the pity.

For any NARRC folk reading with an open mind: color me another advocate of 5 events min/8 max.

Steve

mossaidis

01-22-2011, 03:50 PM

The position of Divers Rep is open. I resigned this past winter when I saw the rules package developed by the committee with (what appeared to me) to be virtually zero consideration from driver input.

The committee is made up of the RE and Race Chairman of each of the Regions that make up the NARRC Series. In MOST cases, these people don't race anymore and in my opinion, are not in touch with the realities and economics of todays racer landscape.

There seems to a drivers rep from each region, hence my question. Are you referring to a NARRC drivers rep (other than the ones from each region)?

lateapex911

01-22-2011, 04:21 PM

I think, in this economy, that it's very tough to be FAST ....AND go to every event. Being fast requires talent, and money, for tires, testing an such. Going to EVERY race requires money, and scheduling freedom from family obligations and work. So I think it's VERY unlikely ANY class, other than maybe SM and SRF, will have more than one candidate...at best...who has both capabilities.

So, it's going to be a crap shoot. Some classes will absolutely be the "participation award", and others might go to the fast guy, because others just didn't show up. I remember years ago, the system was similar, except the tracks were more Lime Rock centralized, and an ITA driver won it. I was new, and shocked that she did, because she was never in even the top 5 at any race! I remember thinking, at the time, "Pfffft, why bother with that, it's obviously a hollow victory". Later the system was changed and I decided to go for it one year.

On the surface, a no drop strategy does strike me as a way to DIScourage people from attending NARRC events. I mean, if it isn't feasible, (and for most guys/gals these days, attending that many events is impossible...we don't live in the old world where if hubbie said, 'we're going racing this weekend', the wife and kids piled in the Suburban and went to the track. Miss a kid soccer game??Unpossible!) ...and it is going to be a joke IF you win it, why bother trying at all? Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm going to go to the cool tracks with the cool events that my buddies are going to and just have fun.

Andy Bettencourt

01-22-2011, 07:25 PM

There seems to a drivers rep from each region, hence my question. Are you referring to a NARRC drivers rep (other than the ones from each region)?

Yes, the NARRC drivers rep.

StephF

01-23-2011, 08:52 PM

Andy, I agree about the one track pony. Wish it wasn't so. Wish we had ANYPLACE else to go on a regular basis than NHMS. And LRP ain't it in my book, sad to say. The entry fee and schedule don't fit either the budget or the time available. :(
Really makes me sad because I basically grew up there.

No, I think NERRC has seen an uptick due to economic reasons. Let's face it, a triple on one weekend as opposed to a single or double on another?

And I too would perfer to see NARRC as a 5/8 deal instead of all or nothing. When I was going through points for season end, I saw a lot of folks who led their class in NARRC, by wins and points, but didn't have enough points, enough events, or enough competition to get anything.
Rules are rules, but there were an awful of of folks running who got squat. Folks that maybe would have come out a little bit more if they thought they had a shot at it......

Andy Bettencourt

01-24-2011, 09:10 AM

Rules are rules, but there were an awful of of folks running who got squat. Folks that maybe would have come out a little bit more if they thought they had a shot at it......

So yes, rules are rules. And the question is how to design a 'Championship' program with 3 goals in mind: ENTICE people to run more races, don't REQUIRE them to run the all, and have the RESULT be quality.

I saw e-mails this past winter from drivers who ran 2 races...TWO races out of eight - and were complaining that they didn't win the NARRC Championship because they had the most points. REALLY?

We are racers need to tell the NARRC Committee what we want in a points structure so that it crowns Champions. There has to be a happy medium between someone who goes to 2 races and wins them both and someone who goes to all of them and wins nothing.

For me, it's the best of 8 inside an 11 race season. If you care about the NARRC, write in. If not, let the people who in my opinion, are out of touch with todays environment keep dictating policy which cheapens the series. Or write in to support the current system, I don't care, just write in.

[email protected]

dickita15

01-24-2011, 10:26 AM

If you care about the NARRC, write in. If not, let the people who in my opinion, are out of touch with todays environment keep dictating policy which cheapens the series.

Andy, I have no dog in this fight but I have to wonder why you are being such a dick. Just because someone does not agree with you does not make them stupid, evil or out of touch.

My quick look at the 2010 points I see only two champs that made all the races. ITA and SM and in both cases it looks like they would have won if there were drops as well.

lawtonglenn

01-24-2011, 10:57 AM

...they would have won if there were drops as well.

Dick

I think the main point, and the point Andy is trying to make, is:

NOT what would have the results been if we after the fact change
the rules to allow drops

IS what would people have done differently in their race scheduling
if the rules allowed drops before the fact.

Looking at my own situation, Jack Hall beat me fair and square (congrats Jack!)
but he missed two races, and I missed three...so even if we apply
the 2 drops rule after the fact, it doesn't change anything.

However, before the season started I knew I had to miss one (HS graduation)
and I thought the no drops rule would kill my chances, so I didn't
schedule in NJMP.

Had there been 2 drops in the rules from the beginning, I am quite
certain that I would've gone to the NJMP double...which may or may
not have changed the outcome...

The construct of the rules have to be looked at in light of what behavior
they will encourage and discourage, and compare that to the goal

.

Andy Bettencourt

01-24-2011, 11:36 AM

Andy, I have no dog in this fight but I have to wonder why you are being such a dick. Just because someone does not agree with you does not make them stupid, evil or out of touch.

My quick look at the 2010 points I see only two champs that made all the races. ITA and SM and in both cases it looks like they would have won if there were drops as well.

Call me a dick if you want but my issue is with the lack of concern for driver input. The people making these decisions are RARELY drivers, they are Regional administrators. It has NOTHING to do with classes I run or how it affects me. I have only heard one driver ever say that a 'Pro' type system would be best for the NARRC.

In fact, at quick glance, there are a couple classes where the CHAMPION would have been different if there were no drops. It rewarded quantity over quality. The drivers I have talked to think that waters down the NARRC Championship. I invite any and all debate on how no drops makes for a better situation. In my opinion, all it does is creates a real possiblility for an 'attendance award'. How often that happens is largely irrelevant, even though it has happened in recent history. What it DOESN'T do, I feel is entice racers to attend more events - because the 11 is so far beyond reality. If you give someone a carrot they can actually reach - with a solid effort and a good 'jump', then they may go for it. If they see the carrot as so high they move to another carrot.

Again, my beef isn't about MY world, it's about the fact the NARRC committee isn't listening to the drivers. What's wrong with being pissed about that? And don't put words in my mouth. I never called anyone evil or stupid. How many of the 8 on the committee club race regularly? 4?

My stance is well known. The NARRC committee knows what the majority of the drivers want in a points structure. They didn't listen. So be it - but lets make sure the drivers know the story. Dick or not.

benspeed

01-24-2011, 11:43 AM

Jeremy Billiel

01-24-2011, 12:11 PM

How tough is it to allow one drop? I mean......sheesh. Wasn't that often the case in the past? I've been zeroed in on Pro IT, but this season It'll be a focus on both NARRC and Pro IT since the events overlap nicely.

But one drop would really help everybody manage time, budgets and organize their season a little more easily.....

So, is it too late to put in a formal request? It's only January...

WHY? Becasue if they allow drops than once again the freaken stupid ass Pocono Mothers Day weekend race will have no attendance. This is what Andy is talking about... Regional administrators using the NARRC to create demand when the demand is not there. :dead_horse: :dead_horse: :dead_horse:

ner88

01-24-2011, 12:56 PM

Andy Bettencourt

01-24-2011, 02:20 PM

Well I guess I'll take a shot at this!
I have been involved in the NARRC comittee for the last 4 years.
I have never seen or has there been a drivers rep. at any of the meetings.
Many of the "regional adminstrators" are NARRC compeditors and even champions.
As a regional adminstrator my main job is to represent my region, not just as a NARRC series adminstrator but to insure that all the members of my region are represented.
The NARRC series was established to bring drivers to the events in all regions involved in NARRC.
It does not do that anymore.
Look at last years results, the two major regions saw no crossover between drivers.
If the racers who are chasing the series (not many) don't want to race at Pocono, NHMS or NJMP why have a series.

If you want a better series get involved and make it better, stop pointing fingeres.

Ill tell you why you haven't seen a drivers rep at a meeting. Because the admins piggy back the NARRC meeting on top of NEDiv meetings in places like Southern Jersey and Pittsburgh, PA. In the past, written compilations of drivers feedback has been provided to the committee for their meetings.

Yes admins ARE in charge of scheduling, a lot of times to the detriment of the schedule as seen in past years.

PAST Champions, Jerry. I applaud all who volunteer as I have had some role in the SCCA for almost all of my 21 year tenure but people need to Beckett if the current landscape and economies of racing to really know what's going on. Sorry if that stings some.

I have (and you and I have had discussions about this for a few years) volunteered to take this series out of the hands of the admins and run it more like PRO IT. No takers. If that isn't getting involved I don't know what is.

Andy Bettencourt

01-24-2011, 02:27 PM

Edit for above: 'beckett' should be 'be aware of'

Can't scroll and edit from my phone.

Andy Bettencourt

01-24-2011, 02:47 PM

And don't get me wrong about events. This years schedule is as perfect as you can get. It basically what the drivers have been asking for: variety of tracks, about a month in between points events and not too much weight on one track (although LRP has an extra race).

Just because some can't go to Pocono on MDW doesn't mean it shouldn't be on the sched. Some people love it! Give choices, have a diverse choice but don't 'require' the attendance of every event. Anyone tell me the downside to Best 8 of 11?

Anyone love no drops and can help us better understand?

StephenB

01-24-2011, 03:46 PM

If NARRC had an awards banquet somewhat central compaired to all regions I would be more inclined to go after that championship. If we had a NARRC RUNOFFS with an awards banquet that night it would certainly add to the series and in my opinion bring back some excitement. The NARRC runnoffs are always very well attended and bring a lot of drivers and workers from all regions together. To me out would be perfect timing...

I emailed andy and I am one of those drivers that competed in one of the highest participation classes (ITB) but fell short of the 1000 point rule from a poor performance at the final race. To be honest I only did half the races but to also be honest I only went to the NARRC runoffs because I had a chance of winning it all. (Wife was due 2 days later...) I think in a class that has high participation you should be the champion even if you only go to as many as you need to go to...

I think Andy refered to me when he mentioned the pro-racing structure. I don't think he liked it and thought it was to complicated but he listened well as the driver Rep, gave me feedback, and all was good.

Stephen Blethen
highest in points in the 2010 ITB NARRC Championship!