IT-level cars coming to a National near you? B Spec Race Cars

[Knestis]

GREAT NEWS - The rules for "B-Spec" are to be released this winter.

http://hondaracinghpd.blogspot.com/2010/12/mazda-honda-unveil-b-spec-racers.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6J2M3nPrGoI/TQGcVw-o3pI/AAAAAAAAAkM/7HAOZrOrnC8/s400/HPD-Mazda%2BB-Spec%2BPic.bmp

For those of you who missed the early peeks, this is basically IT versions of the current crop of "city cars" - the Honda Fit, Mazda 2, et al. This has huge potential, it seems. However...

CONTINUED SILLINESS - According to Jeff Dahnert, "We look forward to seeing these cars in National competition in 2012"

As good an idea as this might be, we do NOT need an additional National class. Get rid of SSC and SSB, and maybe it makes sense but good grief.

K

[dickita15]

I think these are closer to SS than IT. Looks like the future of SSC to me.

If all seven manufacturers buy in this could be big.

[mossaidis]

No hard specs that can be found, but the article suggests that it will closer to SS than IT. Definitely interesting even more so if other manufacturers join the wagon... yet, I can't help but think Jeff is selling out again to the manufacturers with the "national" bit.... which is not exactly selling SCCA (here) lately.

(ok here we go!)

I agree with Kirk, wtf!?!!? another class. So all the money I spent on my IT car is down the toilet accordingly to SCCA - do I sound like a Prod guy or do I sound like a Prod guy uh? :)

Whatever works, just no more "bastard" classes that are not allowed to run Nationals when their numbers are greater than those that can. The club is for the membership first and foremost not the manufacturers.

[Simon T.]

Where can I buy one?

[lawtonglenn]

actually....every time I see a Honda Fit driving on the highway I think
"how cool would it be to have 30 of them trying to get through Big Bend
at the same time"

I think that would be a hoot as a new SS class!

[benspeed]

I had a student with a Honda Fit that had put an Acura 2.?? motor in the car. We were going down the front straight at Lightning at 140mph, with no cage....

I was like Holy Sh*T! Next time you gotta keep it in 4th!

Unfortunately he blew to motor in spectacular fashion. Guys name was Lance.

[Russ Myers]

Didn't they used to have a series like that called the Renault LeCar cup? Really amusing to see a bunch of top heavy cars rolling over in unison. And then there was the Rabbit/Bilstein Cup... Ahhh, the good old dayys.


Russ
Everything old is new again.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think these are closer to SS than IT. Looks like the future of SSC to me.

If all seven manufacturers buy in this could be big.

+1

[Chip42]

a Mazda 2 and Fit were on display at PRI. no info, no attendant. looked roughly like grand-am ST spec, so maybe SCCA Touring? stripped interior etc...

I guess it's a neat idea. SS is surely dumber than hell - makes sense to extend the Touring rules to slower cars in place of continuing the SS model, particularly in the age of mandatory traction control and other nannies in the ECU.

[Charlie Broring]

This has so much more potential the the BS new classes that the SCCA keeps coming up with. Modern cars, relatively inexpensive level of prep, and factory support are very appealing.

[Knestis]

Didn't they used to have a series like that called the Renault LeCar cup? Really amusing to see a bunch of top heavy cars rolling over in unison. And then there was the Rabbit/Bilstein Cup... Ahhh, the good old dayys.

Russ
Everything old is new again.

That's the point.

LeCars, Encores, Alliances, Rabbits, Sciroccos, and Golfs in the US; Renault R5s in Europe, Honda Civics in Canada, and on and on... All one-make series and all a good value for the racer because the manufacturer was willing to subsidize the entire field's racing expenses AND put them in reasonably attractive venues.

What makes this new iteration of the idea REALLY cool is the potential for multiple manufacturers to do the same thing, across sanctioning bodies. THAT'S a model that scales up. If the "outside homologation" idea sticks, that's a giant necessary-but-not-sufficient condition for success. If the decision makers can stay ahead of the some of the most likely pitfalls and avoid compromising the big, first principles, it's going to be huge.

However, none of that should trump the process by which classes gain National status.

K

[Charlie Broring]

I expect the "outside homologation" to be a hard pill for the SCCA to swallow.

After the way that our club has twisted and bent our National class status rules recently I personally would have no problem fast-tracking this class IF it really takes off.

[lateapex911]

If it takes off, it's a pretty fast track if we follow the rules. Or SCCA can be the tail and let the companies wag them.

My jury is out. I'm waiting to read the rules.
I DO think it's cool how Mazdaspeed and HPD are doing this jointly.

I guess the major difference here is that the manufacturers have chosen an anonymous adjudicator to rule and maintain competitive balance, rather than the sanctioning body. It will be interesting to see how the commercial pressures pan out.
In the past the pressure has been on the SCCA and the manufacturers lobbied for advantages and trunk kits and whatnot. Now, THEY have chosen the benevolent dictator, so they are sort of on their honor to allow the organization to balance things fairly. How well will that work? Honda and Mazda are the ones who did the selecting. Will others get a fair shake?

Interesting, but I'm taking a wait and see approach. I think we'll need to see significant manufacturer support in the form of cheap parts kits, bodies in white etc for this to be the true 'grassroots" effort they claim it to be. Otherwise, it's SS racing, and a build will easily top $30K for cars that will run SSC or so laptimes. At that cost/performance ratio, several other National classes beckon, and some regional ones too.

Now, I CAN see this as a fun support race series for Rolex or ALMS, etc.. Tall bodies, big holes in the wind, should result in close racing and lead change possibilties every lap, which can be entertaining.

[dickita15]

However, none of that should trump the process by which classes gain National status.

K

And I doubt it will. I think if this works it will probably be the future of SSC. If I am not mistaken just about everything currently in C is going to age out in the next couple of years anyway. In my mind SS and Touring are a little different than most club racing classes in that they have often been driven by manufacturer interest. Having this interest can be an advantage to those that race there but every coin has two sides and if the interests of the manufacturers change classes can get realigned in order to serve the changing market. As a result the classes are not as stable and the racers investment in the class is more at risk than more traditional club racing classes. I would think that most who buy into SS would understand this.

[Knestis]

If SSC - as it's currently composed - is in hospice, that's great. Let it morph naturally.

...and have some stand-alone "pro" races, or east-west championships, to support some higher profile events. It will require that the manufacturers are willing to subsidize the deal, to be really successful, but I *think* they probably get it, how potentially interesting this could be to a generation of drivers redefining what "performance" is.

K

[BruceG]

Look at the new HP Toyota Yaris in Sportscar....Nice to see some new blood in what may be a drivetrain with some longevity(like the Miata) and therefore more cost efffective for the racer.
Hell...run a class with the Fit, Yaris, Mazda 2,etc in it like the old showroom stock. Obviously, the reason so many are in SM,SSM,ITA in miatas is the fact that with 100000mi plus on the crate engine, they still run great.

[Flyinglizard]

Mazda says that it is in the hands of the SCCA and NASA. "Should have some specs out" soon. I will have one but the Fiesta is the best so far.
MM

[joeg]

add the new Ford Fiesta, Chevy Aveo, etc.

[Flyinglizard]

Let the current SSC cars expire and run these in SSC. The manufacturers will only reconise the other Bspec cars for pay out . The current c cars will just fade away in to the IT rules. Face it , any SSC car that is 10 yrs old should be in IT anyway. I bet that they have gotten faster and faster over the 10 yrs.
To keep it close, the engine/ECU. will need to be sealed.
We dont want the engine thing to go the way of SM. Total BS when a fresh crate engine is midpack or worse.
I wi have one as soon as the rules are solid, if the powerpackage is sealed. MM

[Flyinglizard]

http://hondaracinghpd.blogspot.com/2...ec-racers.html
This could be as big as the "Renault Cup" and almost as good to watch. IMHO. MM
Sorry for the title move. MM A search will find it here a little better.

[Russ Myers]

If the Fiesta's in, I'm in.

Russ

[Knestis]

If the Fiesta's in, I'm in.

Russ

Where are you located, Russ? The Fiesta is my current favorite for a variety of reasons...

K

[Kai Noeske]

I am an SSC guy - expiring car in a seemingly expiring class. When I heard about B-spec, I had first posted some disappointment over at rrax that there is talk about a new SS-like class instead of putting up support for the current SS classes that are not faring well. After some thought, I agree that B-spec may just be a good chance to revive the SS concept, *if* it is done right - with good political, PR and manufacturer support.

Will watch how it goes - I like the SS idea a lot, would like to
continue driving an almost-stock car to the track and back, and
compared to SSC cars, the buy-in for Bspec may not be that bad if one chooses either a pre-owned donor car or if there is a market for used Bspec cars. All spec and sealed would be awesome to keep costs down.

Fingers crossed. In what other class can you flip your car and
literally throw a Fit? :) :eclipsee_steering:

[Flyinglizard]

KAI, Please make your thoughts known to the CRB; RE sealed and tight specs.
The Fiesta is the ringer and will neeed about 200# spread from the Mazda and maybe 100# from the Honda. The Nissan is a sleeper and the Hyundai looks good, at least on paper. The little Chev Eco tech will be cheat up real fast also.
If this is kept close on track, the class will be very strong. If SCCA lets them all bring the cars , as is , It will never get a start.
Please push for seals . Lets not make this into a 6000$ engine rebuild class. MM

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

I doubt that this will be/stay like an SS class. Look at IT, it went from SS cars to IT low prep and then now, where the rules have grown a lot farther than they were first intended. It would be cool to put B-SPec prepped cars into an IT class. The last thing SCCA needs is more classes.

Steven

[Flyinglizard]

Run them on DOT 180 tires. Anything but 0 dot Hoosiers.

[lateapex911]

I doubt that this will be/stay like an SS class. Look at IT, it went from SS cars to IT low prep and then now, where the rules have grown a lot farther than they were first intended. It would be cool to put B-SPec prepped cars into an IT class. The last thing SCCA needs is more classes.

Steven

it HAS been 25 plus years......
...and technology has changed.

[Russ Myers]

Located in Charlotte, NC. Raed an original Mk.1 Fiesta in SSC and would love another bite at the apple.

Russ

[Flyinglizard]

I submitted a letter requesting seal engines and DOT 140 or higher tires, balanced by weight.
This is about the same as the VW CUp Goals, still in process.

[dickita15]

Run them on DOT 180 tires. Anything but 0 dot Hoosiers.

Serious question, are they any series that are actually running with a tire wear limit? I know there are semi pros and for that matter some SCCA classes that run on a spec tire but is there anyone who has made a treadwear limit work?

[shwah]

Lemons [edit] uses a treadwear rating spec on tires. It seems to work for them.

[Flyinglizard]

Chumpcar runs @ 190 and up. I was pushing for 180, so that we could use Kumho XS. WE are on the Falken 615 tires. The class gets cheaty as the tires get stickier. That holds for most racing,IMHO. Slower is a lot better racing.
It is a good balance in reality. The lighter cars turn better, and the heavy cars go faster , giving up some turn.
OUR car is an 1800# VW GOLF. It works well.

[Z3_GoCar]

KAI, Please make your thoughts known to the CRB; RE sealed and tight specs.
The Fiesta is the ringer and will neeed about 200# spread from the Mazda and maybe 100# from the Honda. The Nissan is a sleeper and the Hyundai looks good, at least on paper. The little Chev Eco tech will be cheat up real fast also.
If this is kept close on track, the class will be very strong. If SCCA lets them all bring the cars , as is , It will never get a start.
Please push for seals . Lets not make this into a 6000$ engine rebuild class. MM

Actually they should also add the Fiat 500 and base Mini to the mix also. The 500 shares chassis with both the Mazda 2 and Festiva, too. So even thought the Festiva has 20 more hp than the "2" it's slower because it weighs 23x lbs more.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/10q3/2011_ford_fiesta_vs._2010_honda_fit_2011_mazda_2-comparison_tests

[Flyinglizard]

I foreget that this is the same SCCA that put the base Mini in H stock for solo. And the boosted Minis more or less had it's own class. Total BS.
I like the Mini as a driver, but it does not belong in this mix of cheapass ,low end cars.
The right way might be to have a price cap ,like the English race groups had. Maybe $15K retail
The Mini is not a B spec car in any sense other than it is small.. It is not cheap nor built cheaply. No Mini, IMHO.
Either way the "SCCA rules wont be out or classed until 2012", and I'm sure that NASA will get them out before SCCA does.
" They may run STU or prod before then". Per SCCA techGuy Ryan.
Iwould hope that the cars are using a stock power train and stock tanks ,which would not be allowed into the Prod rules. Except maybe along the lines of the plastic tank Golfs.
MM

[Z3_GoCar]

The base Mini is only $1k more than the Cruse, has the same size engine as the Fiesta, and makes a total of 1hp/2ftlbs more than the Fiesta, and 17hp/38ftlbs less than the Cruse. I'd say the base Mini is right there:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=101370710&veh2=101293762|hatchback&veh3=101216526&veh4=101266475|hatchback&show=0|5&comparatorId=646433

Then there's the new VW Polo....

[Flyinglizard]

None of those cars are considered "B" cars.
The VW Polo is the best B car worldwide but we may never get it. It won the Chinese Touring car last year.

[Z3_GoCar]

None of those cars are considered "B" cars.
The VW Polo is the best B car worldwide but we may never get it. It won the Chinese Touring car last year.

????

I picked, the Honda Fit, Base Mini, Mazda 2, and Ford Fiesta, then Edmunds threw in the Cruse. So the base Mini is $2.5-3K more than the Fit or Fiesta. Hp/Torque wise the Mini and the Fiesta are a toss up.

As for the Polo:
http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/polo/2012/

[Greg Amy]

As for the Polo:
Sweet! I fell in love with the Polo when we visited Germany last year, and said I'd buy one if it ever came here (esp that 1.4L turbo one).

I've been half-looking at the "B Spec" market for a couple years; a Polo would get me off my butt to buy one...

[Andy Bettencourt]

So lets talk about these cars big-picture. They don't fit into SSC right now because they would be too slow. Those that don't want another class may have to suck it up if they like the concept because the only way these get off the ground is if there is a psudo-spec class for them.

Pick 6 of them, write the rules wo that they can cross over into ITB or ITC (however they fit) to make double-dipping attractive. They don't have to have EVERYTHING IT has, just don't allow something IT doesn't.

Maybe the target for this class could be ITB/ITC guys who want newer stuff and the close competitiveness of an almost-spec class. I could see it being successful, but not without giving them their own class.

[dickita15]

Except IT does not give them the National racing platform that the manufacturers probably want for them. SS does.

[gran racing]

The key would be to make this truly a stock class. Realistically, how could what goes on in Showroom Stock be prevented? Getting engines sealed from the manufacturers is probably not going to happen. Is there another way to get the engines sealed?

What's involved in testing spring and shock rates? Is that something which is viable to be tested at the track?

[Knestis]

It can only be prevented by rules enforcement by someone with the time and stones to make it stick. But at the end of the day there is NOTHING to keep someone from spending all kinds of green even on little racing cars.

When we went to Monza in '87, we watched the Renault R5 GT Turbos run. There was a guy who had four of them painted up with identical numbers, loaded in the back of a transporter like cartridges in a magazine. One was wadded up in a fenced impound area, one was racing, and two were in reserve.

I'll believe that the Polo is here when I see one!

KK

[Flyinglizard]

If SCCA just puts them in SSC and lets the current cars expire. That solves the class issues.
The only right way to keep them under spec is to do what the pros do. Roll them on a dyno at the track, seal the pieces and ECU. Have the owners sign a build sheet stating the actual prep level of the power train. If ever the car shows to be outside of the build sheet, eternal damnation.
Keeping these tall cars on low grip tires will reduce the need for monster springs. I doubt that any of these can run DOT zero without tipping over. (Only the Mini, whose chassis is clearly superior).
Coming up with a spec wheel rate for these cars is really easy. All are strut front. The required spring rate is just a few calculations.
If SCCA Pro had any nads they would spec them now and run them at some pro venues this year, adjusting the class as they go. Reward weight??
Alas , govern by commitee. erosion happens faster. IMHO,MM

[Andy Bettencourt]

Right, so you are going to have to create a class for them either way. It's either SSD or call it 'Spec B'. Keep it tight, not too many cars - maybe 6 different models. Spec classes are the most successful.

But if you keep the rules so that the cars can double dip in IT, you will have an advantage there.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If SCCA just puts them in SSC and lets the current cars expire. That solves the class issues.

And what the SCCA has never demonstrated in Club racing is the willingness to actually let something die.

Seal the motors, let Enterprises run it and watch it succeed. Otherwise it's just another flop.

[0100]

http://www.scca.com/newsarticle.aspx?hub=1&news=4091

[Flyinglizard]

Allowed the removal of the interiors. Why?
Not for us,if my kid cant drive it to school.
Np reason to allow gutting the inside. poor choice. Can I tell you what I relly think??
I sent a letter, asking for sealed engines and 140 TW tires. KISS. and let it work.
The weights are too low without gutting also.
"Camber" section should say and/or slotting of the strut /knuckle.
MM

[dickita15]

Allowed the removal of the interiors. Why?
Not for us,if my kid cant drive it to school.
Np reason to allow gutting the inside. poor choice. Can I tell you what I relly think??
I sent a letter, asking for sealed engines and 140 TW tires. KISS. and let it work.
The weights are too low without gutting also.
"Camber" section should say and/or slotting of the strut /knuckle.
MM

Showroom Stock and Touring classes are, or at least should, be structured to take advantage of factory support. Really without that support the classes for new relatively expensive cars do not make sense.
B Spec is based on a consensus agreement from those manufacturers. SCCA is working with these companies to make the rules universal. I honestly think you are looking at the wrong class for super cheap racing.

[Knestis]

What Dick said. There's NO reason to think that racing any new car is going to be cheaper than racing a sensibly old IT car.

EDIT - now what the manufacturers ought to do is implement a program to spread their support thinly over lots of racers, rather than heavily subsidizing just a couple each. Then we would have the makings of something very big.

K

[Flyinglizard]

I talked to Mazda. They said that SCCA made the rules.
How many letters were sent to SCCA to get these cars going? Maybe NASA will do a better job. It could be "Renault cup",al over again. The best racing in history.
The weights are about 200# too low at my estimation.
Think of the marketing potential of the car being driven to the track and home again. There are lots of college kids that could be driving these around.
We have plenty of race cars already.This was just going to be a cool transport and occasional racer.

[dickita15]

I talked to Mazda. They said that SCCA made the rules.

That is not entirely true.

[lateapex911]

I talked to Mazda. They said that SCCA made the rules.
How many letters were sent to SCCA to get these cars going? Maybe NASA will do a better job. It could be "Renault cup",al over again. The best racing in history.
The weights are about 200# too low at my estimation.
Think of the marketing potential of the car being driven to the track and home again. There are lots of college kids that could be driving these around.
We have plenty of race cars already.This was just going to be a cool transport and occasional racer.

You're living in the past.
Seriously. Go buy a $16K car, put $4K of safety gear in it and then daily drive AND race it?
You just can't do that anymore. Makes no sense.
And if you really want to, who would buy a new car as opposed to a built race car for less than half the money?
:shrug:

Dicks right, new cars are $$, and they get wrecked. Manufacturer involvement is key in this category.

[0100]

Think of the marketing potential of the car being driven to the track and home again.


I don't know many people who would drive a wheel to wheel race car to the track and home again. HPDE events and maybe even time trial guys, but I think few guys would drive to the track and back in a wheel to wheel race car.

[0100]

Dicks right, new cars are $$, and they get wrecked. Manufacturer involvement is key in this category.

Yeah like "body in white" cars from ford, honda, and mazda would be a nice start.

[Knestis]

To be fair, I commuted to and from the University of Washington the entire last year of my bachelor's degree program in our Renault Cup Alliance.

To prove a point - and because we sort of didn't have another option - we also drove it from Seattle to the last IMSA weekend at Riverside, CA. We had to rotate the rear torsion bars to raise the back end enough that it didn't drag on the ground with the spare tires, tool box, tent and sleeping bags. And two people. We took enough cash to know that we could buy Greyhound tickets to get home if the car got bent but that was the extent of our contingency plan.

Oh, to be young and stupid again... :)

The funny PS is that we caught a wicked tailwind down around Sacramento and got 50+ mpg for most of a tank.

K

[Greg Amy]

To be fair, I commuted to and from the University of Washington the entire last year of my bachelor's degree program in our Renault Cup Alliance.
...and I competed in three years of National Club racing in Showroom Stock A -- while attending college *and* delivering pizzas nightly -- all in my sole car, a 1987 Shelby CSX. All three years I not only drove the car to and from all National events across Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas with tires and tools stuffed into the the back of the car (along with a full interior), I also drove it round-trip each of those three years from north central Texas to the SCCA Runoffs at Road Atlanta, GA.

So, now you do know a couple of guys who would drive a wheel to wheel race car to the track and home again...you do what ya gotta do... - GA

[Flyinglizard]

Dick. Mazda speed said that" SCCA made the rules". That is a quote. talked to them thurs , last week. We also have a SM, and are in the soft loop. That is simply what the man said.

As far as SCCA being member driven, it really is not at all. The Mini is still in HS for solo , what does that tell you?
The 1.6 and 1.8, SM, has no chance with the 99s .( as a result,many of the 1.6 are @ NASA. )
SCCA needs to listen to the members to be successful. The future brings younger members, we need to change with the times, a lot faster than we have in the past, IMHO.

We have driven IT cars to the track and around town many times. Funny how if it runs on the street, it runs pretty well on the track, without minor problems. Also drove ITB golfs and Roccos to the ice races. I run welded diffs on most of the faster VWs now, and that kinda takes out of the street friendly set.
Many SSC cars are driven around town and often to the track. Joining the AAA +, might be a good idea for sure. MM

[lateapex911]

...and I competed in three years of National Club racing in Showroom Stock A -- while attending college *and* delivering pizzas nightly -- all in my sole car, a 1987 Shelby CSX. All three years I not only drove the car to and from all National events across Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas with tires and tools stuffed into the the back of the car (along with a full interior), I also drove it round-trip each of those three years from north central Texas to the SCCA Runoffs at Road Atlanta, GA.

So, now you do know a couple of guys who would drive a wheel to wheel race car to the track and home again...you do what ya gotta do... - GA


Dick. Mazda speed said that" SCCA made the rules". That is a quote. talked to them thurs , last week. We also have a SM, and are in the soft loop. That is simply what the man said.

As far as SCCA being member driven, it really is not at all. The Mini is still in HS for solo , what does that tell you?
The 1.6 and 1.8, SM, has no chance with the 99s .( as a result,many of the 1.6 are @ NASA. )
SCCA needs to listen to the members to be successful. The future brings younger members, we need to change with the times, a lot faster than we have in the past, IMHO.

We have driven IT cars to the track and around town many times. Funny how if it runs on the street, it runs pretty well on the track, without minor problems. Also drove ITB golfs and Roccos to the ice races. I run welded diffs on most of the faster VWs now, and that kinda takes out of the street friendly set.
Many SSC cars are driven around town and often to the track. Joining the AAA +, might be a good idea for sure. MM

Add another guy who's driven the race car to the track. My first year. For my first school, it was all going well, until a guy spun on the banking. We approached two wide, I went low, my competitor went high. The spun and stopped car let go of his brakes. One totaled car 300+ miles from home. Two wheels left to roll it on. Got my license though. Later that season, I drove the replacement car 400+ miles to a track and had a stock motor (rotary) spin it's stator gear. Poof, rattle rattle. Rented a car to get home. From the middle of nowhere, and paid thru the nose. When I added the moneys I spent to recover and get the hulks home, and the extra time and trips, I could have bought a trailer....and actually brought the proper spares and tools needed to race effectively.

People go to races, to win...especially people who pay over $20K just for the basic car...they aren't going to "Drive to the track" on the race rubber and pile the tent and tools inside a mini car.

Today, I can not imagine doing any of that. Not because I'm old or lazy, but because it's just too difficult to do legally. While my cars were registered, they sure weren't legal...they were race cars! Today, I couldn't drive down my block without getting arrested. My first year racing was a long time ago. Times have changed.

It just doesn't make sense from a financial and legal risk. CAN it be done? well sure, but....

[dickita15]

Dick. Mazda speed said that" SCCA made the rules". That is a quote. talked to them thurs , last week. We also have a SM, and are in the soft loop. That is simply what the man said.


sigh
Well the man is mistaken, mostly.
B Spec is a result if Mazda and Honda working together and then trying to gain other manufacturer interest. The basic concept was to have identical specs across sanctioning bodies. The overall rule concept including the interior gutting is part of the original plan from the manufacturers.
Also part of the concept is to have an independent third party spec shocks and springs and make other minor adjustments for competitiveness. That has been slow to happen and members were clamoring to get these cars classed so SCCA wrote the rules on these final items. The CRB has been very sensitive not to make rules that are in conflict with the manufacturer’s agreement and it has required a lot of shuttle diplomacy.
It has been 19 months since I was first briefed in on B-Spec and others in the club were working on this long before that, please do not think for a minute that any of these decisions come lightly.

[Simon T.]

So...anyone here still interested in B-Spec? World Challenge just announced three races for the class in 2012, rumors from Grand Am, and quite a bit of manufacturer involvement so far.

Seems like the perfect class for me. Cheap (after the initial car purchase and build), the pro series specifically Grand Am mentioned no pro drivers allowed, so it's a good stepping stone if you want to move up and affordable racing at any level whether it's SCCA club racing or World Challenge.

I just noticed there will be "T4" for B-Spec cars in 2013 I believe? I saw the Mazda 2 at the ARRC, fastest lap was a 1:51. It looked quick in the corners. This really has my interest.

[Knestis]

Yup. We're working on possibilities through the Brimtek/RennGruppe WC team (Tristan Herbert with Cameron Conover engineering the cars).

I looked at the 2 at the ARRC (sorry I missed you, Simon!). It was pretty basic but ultimately, Spec B will be similar to an ITB car in terms of performance - maybe a little slower.

I'm thinking I'd like to do a partial year of WC races (right side of the country) plus regionals and maybe the RubOffs.

K

[Simon T.]

Yup. We're working on possibilities through the Brimtek/RennGruppe WC team (Tristan Herbert with Cameron Conover engineering the cars).

I looked at the 2 at the ARRC (sorry I missed you, Simon!). It was pretty basic but ultimately, Spec B will be similar to an ITB car in terms of performance - maybe a little slower.

I'm thinking I'd like to do a partial year of WC races (right side of the country) plus regionals and maybe the RubOffs.

K

I'm hoping WC picks it up for a full season in 2013. They're only running three for 2012, all of which are far from here (GA) but it'd be awesome to eventually get there. I talked to Grand-Am a few weeks ago and they didn't have much to say right now. Here is basically what they said if you haven't already heard (or know more than I do :p)

-6 Races ran in conjunction with the Rolex Series/CTSCC.
-30-45 Minutes in length.
-Only open to drivers currently NOT holding a professional license.

That's pretty much it. :shrug: He said they're waiting on manufacturer commitment in contract form before formally releasing a press release and more information.

I've come up with a huge pro list to investing in building one, the only cons I can find so far is the initial expense and the fear of it not taking off, which I think it will from all of the manufacturer excitement. Kinetic had on their website a whole B-Spec price sheet and race ready car you could pay them to build but now I can't find it.

[JLawton]

And it looks like the regular Mini will be included. That should be an interesting prospect!

[darthmonkeyIT]

I have been following the B-spec cars to see what is happening with them. I would be interested in possibly running one depending on how they are classed.

I read before that Mazda is offering already built B-spec Mazda 2's but that most of the other manufacturers are tear down and build yourself. Dunno if this is still the case. The Mazda 2, Mini, or Ford Fiesta; one of those for me. :023:

[Knestis]

Revised weights and restrictor specs appear in the preliminary December tech bulletin...

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/Preliminary_December_TB.pdf

I had *not* seen anything yet from GA. That sweetens the pot.

K

[JLawton]

I've come up with a huge pro list to investing in building one, the only cons I can find so far is the initial expense and the fear of it not taking off, which I think it will from all of the manufacturer excitement. .

The good thing is they will (not sure if it's official) be the new T4 class in 2013. SCCA is pushing this one hard. They'll make a home for it one way or another.

[Simon T.]

The good thing is they will (not sure if it's official) be the new T4 class in 2013. SCCA is pushing this one hard. They'll make a home for it one way or another.

Yep I read that, so at the very least it could be big in club racing.

[Knestis]

Okay - dumb question. The TB is amending something but the 2011 GCR doesn't have any B Spec spec lines. What am I missing...?

K

[Simon T.]

Okay - dumb question. The TB is amending something but the 2011 GCR doesn't have any B Spec spec lines. What am I missing...?

K

http://www.scca.com/assets/GCR-UpdatedThroughNovFastrack.pdf

Go to the SS rules, page 583, they don't actually mention B-Spec:

"34. For each of the following cars in SSC, Fiat 500 (2011-12), Ford
Fiesta 4 door (2010-11), Honda Fit 5 door (2009-2011), Nissan
Versa 4-5 door (2010-2011), Mazda2 4 door (2010-2011) and
Toyota Yaris 2-4 door (2010-2011), the following apply:

Interiors may be removed, including seats, seat brackets, carpet,
carpet padding, OEM seat belts, interior trim and headliners. OEM
radio and air conditioner may be removed. Heaters and all duct
work must remain, except duct work that goes under seats.

Maximum 2.5 degrees negative chamber on front and rear;
MacPherson strut suspension may decamber wheels by the use
of eccentric bushings at control arm pivot points, by the use of
eccentric bushings at the strut-to-spindle, and/or by use of slotted adjusters at the top of the strut mounting plate. If upper strut slotted plates are used, they shall be located on existing chassis structure, utilizing the OEM bolt holes and may not serve as reinforcement for that structure. On other forms of suspension, camber adjustment may be achieved by the use of shims and/or eccentric bushings.

Ride Height: Minimum ride height is five (5) inches, to be measured without driver at the lowest point of the rocker panels, but not to include welded seams or fasteners.

Suspension: Any OEM or aftermarket non-adjustable shock absorber
intended for the specific make, model and year car is permitted.
The shock absorber must be installed in the stock mounting location.Remote reservoir shocks are not permitted. Any springs up to a maximum spring rate of 500 pounds may be used. The spring
must be installed in the stock location. Threaded shock bodies or
adjusters may be used.

[dickita15]

Simon better at GCR than Kirk. Wow.

The first batch of B spec cars we added in May. More added since. I think there are two left that are ready to go but we have to wait for the cars to be released.

[dickita15]

The good thing is they will (not sure if it's official) be the new T4 class in 2013. SCCA is pushing this one hard. They'll make a home for it one way or another.

Jeff,
When the BOD suspended the 2.5 rule one of the arguments was the Board wanted active management of the classes rather than the arbitrary effects of 2.5. The CRB seems to have taken that message to heart and are working to come up with long term strategies to make the classes and categories stronger.
In the end however the BOD has to vote to confirm any proposed changes. I hope that the Board will have the courage to support the CRB in this task. Sometimes it is very hard for members of the board to support that hurts a few of their members.
Dick

[Flyinglizard]

Is the Chevy Sonic or the Cruze in?? We have a in @ Chevy and would like to race one of these.
Otherwise, the Mini is the only car for us to consider. MM

[Knestis]

Simon better at GCR than Kirk. Wow.

The first batch of B spec cars we added in May. More added since. I think there are two left that are ready to go but we have to wait for the cars to be released.


The student becomes the master. It is the way of the world, old one. :)

Actually, "Simon actually READING the GCR better than Kirk typing, 'find b spec' then giving up and going to crowdsourcing." THANKS, Simon! I plead "busy."

K

EDIT - any hints at the higher echelons from VW re: the Polo, Dick...? Hmmm?

[Simon T.]

The student becomes the master. It is the way of the world, old one. :)

Actually, "Simon actually READING the GCR better than Kirk typing, 'find b spec' then giving up and going to crowdsourcing." THANKS, Simon! I plead "busy."

K

EDIT - any hints at the higher echelons from VW re: the Polo, Dick...? Hmmm?

Haha no problem! :023:

[dickita15]

Is the Chevy Sonic or the Cruze in?? We have a in @ Chevy and would like to race one of these.
Otherwise, the Mini is the only car for us to consider. MM

Sonic will be in when the car is introduced.
Specs are ready but we have to wait for Chevy.

[dickita15]

Kirk,
I have heard nothing on any VW. If you have an in tell them to come on down.

[Knestis]

Kirk,
I have heard nothing on any VW. If you have an in tell them to come on down.

Yeah - I wish. I think that's on Cameron and Tristan's to-do list... :)

K

[Simon T.]

Random reading off Kinetic's website:

For 2012, a number of racing sanctioning bodies have created a new segment of race cars called B-Spec that targets the sub-compact market. Manufacturers have a keen interest in expanding the popularity of this segment by introducing more clients to driving smaller cars that are fun to drive, fuel efficient with and handle well.

The aim of the series is to provide (relatively) cheap access to racing, with the intention of the sanctioning bodies to maintain a single “spec” for the cars so that they can compete in any series with minimal changes (vinyl, tires etc).

What Does It Cost ?

Cost Of Base new car – Approx $13,600
Kinetic Motorsports Kit To Equip Car : $14,400
Kinetic Motorsports charge to build the car if you choose not to do it yourself: $6,000
Total If you build the car: $28,000
Total if Kinetic Motorsports Builds the car: $34,000 plus tax

The Kia Rio 5 has been selected to represent the Kia brand in this category and has been built to compete against other B-Spec models such as the Mazda 2, Honda Fit, Mini, Fiat 500, GM Sonic, Ford Fiesta etc.

The sanctioning bodies that are currently participating are:

World Challenge - Each B-Spec car would race against other B-Spec cars in a class race at major racing venues.

Grand-Am – Each B-Spec car would race in a support race series for the main weekends – also racing against other B-spec cars at prominent locations around the country.

SCCA – Each B-Spec car would race against other B-spec cars in the series alongside a wider group of show-room stock C class – allowing campaigning of the car at a myriad of events and locations, regional and national race events.

NASA – Each B-Spec car would compete in its own class at events around the country



How Do I Become Involved?

Contact Kinetic Motorsports, who will be the designated supplier of the kit.

Each kit will include:
Roll-cage kit
Seat
Fire system
Quick disconnect steering wheel
Harness/belt system

Sanctioning body defined window, debris and cockpit nets.
Set of non-adjustable shocks
Set of spec wheel rims
Set of Spec tires for your designated series
Oil sump pan expansion kit and pick-up extension
Complete build instructions.

Kinetic Motorsports can assist with the build process if you feel you don’t want to do this yourself.

Kinetic is currently working on a detailed online purchasing scheme for parts with Kia/Mobis directly that will yield better than dealer pricing on the parts for your B-Spec racer.

Dealers are encouraged to use this opportunity to not only campaign and race the cars they sell, but to also allow for the car to be a showroom piece in between races to act as a marketing tool. As the Kia Racing/Kinetic team come to the dealer’s region for their respective races, dealers will be encouraged to participate with their cars at those same events.

Most dealers are having their own staff work-on and build the cars and will find that it is a hugely successful focus project for staff to rally around and the esprit de corps and sense of pride that is generated by the project is extremely powerful within the dealership.

What Will Kinetic Motorsports’s Role Be In B-Spec For 2012 ?

Kinetic Motorsports will campaign 4 Rio 5 B-Spec cars at race events that it will be attending with both its Grand-American Forte Koup program and World Challenge Optima Turbo program. Both Series operate big professionally-run race events. The B-spec race would be only open to amateur racers (no one who has carried a Pro-license in the past 3 years).

Currently the sanctioning bodies are planning the following Events:

World Challenge: 3 race weekends – Miller Utah, Grand-Prix Detroit, Mosport Canada. They plan approx. 9 races at these three weekends – 30 min Sprint race – 5 min break – 30 min race on one day. The following day would be a 45 min race.

Grand-American: They plan 6 race weekends with a single 40-50 min race to be run as a support race for other professional race events. – This is the same format as currently used and would be similar to MX 5 Cup or PCA Club Racing.

Kinetic Motorsports will have its main B-Spec-Race Hauler in the paddock for the four cars we will campaign and depending on number of additional entrants, we maybe able to accommodate you under our awning or make arrangements for you to be parked nearby so we can assist you with set-up and coaching etc if you would like our help.

So we encourage you to bring out your cars and join us at these events and we can make the Kia Team a bigger and better thing with your presence and involvement !

You don’t have to be part of the big country-wide events and instead you can campaign the cars yourselves in club events across the country and choose to attend as few or as many as you wish.

SCCA and NASA events operate events all over the country and you can campaign your cars in the relevant classes (SCCA Showroom Stock- C SSC). You can turn up in a giant hauler and awning or a simple trailer and E-Z Up, the choice of how to do it is yours. We encourage you to use your techs in your shops to be your pit crew and have them get involved.

[tderonne]

They had a couple cars at the Runoffs. Didn't have to look too closely to see illegal stuff with the cages in most of the cars. Bars through and welded to the B-pillars, door bars welded to the rockers, etc.

They don't have unique cage rules, right?

[StephenB]

Do you think 5 years from now these will be ITA cars?

[Knestis]

Do you think 5 years from now these will be ITA cars?

ITB for many of them. Those with small restrictors in B Spec (Kia) will likely be A cars.

K

[Greg Amy]

Do you think 5 years from now these will be ITA cars?
Nah. Super Touring Ultra-Lights.... ;)

[Rabbit07]

Nah. Super Touring Ultra-Lights.... ;)

Dude, you rock!:happy204::happy204:

[Flyinglizard]

Looked @ the Fiesta/Mazda front end. same as VW with flat control arm @ street ride height. Not good.
I will look at the Honda and Mini also, checking for some camber gain. Protech Should have 1 or maybe 2 cars for 2012. 1 for rent, price is still TBD.
MM

[Kai Noeske]

Nah. Super Touring Ultra-Lights.... ;)

The limit for that class *must* be 1600cc, don't ask why, just believe and do... :D

[Knestis]

Looked @ the Fiesta/Mazda front end. same as VW with flat control arm @ street ride height. Not good.
I will look at the Honda and Mini also, checking for some camber gain. Protech Should have 1 or maybe 2 cars for 2012. 1 for rent, price is still TBD.
MM

Looking forward to hearing your opinions, Mike, and to see what you decide to do...

K

[Greg Amy]

B-Spec regs:

http://www.scca.com/assets/B-Spec_Regulations_2_web_December-2011.pdf

[Simon T.]

Woohoo!

[betamotorsports]

Having worked with Jason and SportsCar on their two Yaris' (Yari?) I think this is a great class idea. I was skeptical at first but these things are pretty cool.

[Flyinglizard]

I have talked to TC @ World Challenge. Here's the story from him.

"The manufacturers have a board that determines the weight s and plates"
That cant be good. IMHO. There has to be a one race time frame for reward weight , to keep it close. Waiting 4 or 5 races wont do it. IMHO. (pro has to be close,club can wait a few years until it is dead and move on)

I also proposed the "TV style"(" VW cup") for the race format. Run a 25 min race, stop on the front straight, invert the grid, adjust the tire pressures only, start the next heat.
Pts are 3/4 for 1st, 2pts for P2 etc/
I doubt that WC has enough nuts to run it that way, but who knows.

Lets face it, if it is a drive away race with cars that are slower than ITB cars, no - one will watch. If the race is a non stop passing race , people will watch. It will have to look good on TV, simple .

No TV, no manufacturers .no $.

MINI is a Bspec?? Not, but BMW has $ so they are in.
How are they going to keep a well designed Mini in the pack of cheap crap?? Will BMW let it happen?
Wait and see.
The BMW has by far the best vertical CG , front suspension and brakes.

[JS154]

Nah. Super Touring Ultra-Lights.... ;)

Liking the B-Spec class...

unofficial of course, but rumour has it that BMW CCA Club Racing may be adopting B-Spec as a clsss as well....

very tempting

I suspect the Mini or to Mazda will be the cars to have. The Fiat is the coolest IMHO, just too underpowered even though it's light.

[ITA_honda]

Liking the B-Spec class...

unofficial of course, but rumour has it that BMW CCA Club Racing may be adopting B-Spec as a clsss as well....

very tempting

I suspect the Mini or to Mazda will be the cars to have. The Fiat is the coolest IMHO, just too underpowered even though it's light.

I think the MINI is going to be the car to have. just my $0.02

[joeg]

Greg--You are correct, unless they bring its wegh up to over 3,100lbs.

[Russ Myers]

SINGLE INLET RESTRICTORS.

Russ

[ITA_honda]

SINGLE INLET RESTRICTORS.

Russ

Well there goes that! :D

[Chip42]

SINGLE INLET RESTRICTORS.

no, flat plate restrictors, like is SM.

the SCCA is entrusted with the rules to be run by all (so far) 4 sanctioning bodies, and the CRB is setting the weights and restrictors. From wht I hear, the manufacturers are in support of this arrangement, and I've heard that classification is base don on-track testing (and presumably results) as well as output modeling.

[Flyinglizard]

I have looked @ all but the FIAT, and Chevy Sonic.The Sonic runs @ 2800#. With the cars all on the same tire,I dont see the Sonic near the front after 4 hard turns, next to the Mazda @ 2300#. The FIAT needs more motor . I doubt that FIAT will have any $ and I dont see the rest plating the cars down to the FIAT power of 79@ on the rollers. The Mazda 2 is supposed to wheel dyno @ 94.
The BMW MINI does not belong here.The build quality is Typical BMW. Not compromised for a low price point.
If the class is for Bpec cars ,they sell for 14000$. Not 21K. BMW/MINI pays a lot to race and support SCCA, World Challenge etc. It is the $ power that brings the car here.

I just dont see BMW letting a 13K Mazda finish in front of it.

Camber gain; @ the 6inride height; MINI needs to come down about 2in, leaving a very little camber gain or zero. The rest of the cars will have camber loss with deflection @ the race ride height. Most have the control arms about flat @ stock ride height, and need to drop around 4in. Net camber loss and poor roll centers.
Vertical CGs are about the same,except for the MINI is about 1.5 or2in lower. It is hard to get a good number with the cars @ street ride height. Regardless, they are very close to each other. The sedan versions are usually better, CG and aero wise, but have not been listed yet.
I would like the Toyota Yaris sedan.

The cars will be slow, ITB ITC, speeds @ 2300# and 100hp.

I forwarded my "VW cup" race format,"TV friendly", TO TC Kline.
It consist of 2 or 3, 25 min heat races. Points are awarded , 1st = 3/4 pt,P2= 2 pt P3= 3pt,etc.
The finish is inverted for each following race. The cars dont leave the track between rounds. Standing start, with the cars spaced @ 60ft. Low point wins. It could be adjusted to fit in 1 hr. I am sure that the race will be settled in the first 5 laps. The inverted start may allow it to be racy to near the end.
Other rumors; the $ contingencies are rumored to be even across the board,about $500 to win.
The entree should be around 750$ per pro race, MOL
The pro pay out will be just enough to have a net loss , after tires. The TC tires are @ 300each. No price yet on the 15intires.
I was hoping that the top 5 could make tow money net $ gain, but it looks like not.
Most of the details should be announced @ PRI Fri or sat.
I'll be @ PRI fri. along with the first Champion of this class, Michael S Ogren. >: The kid thinks that he can beat me, and often does.

[joeg]

So Mike, if you had to make your mind up right now, would it be the Mini?

[JLawton]

MINI USA also offers contingency dollars (in 2011). With Grand-Am it was $5K to win. For any SCCA road race class it's $500 to win.......

I would go with the MINI. My guess is SCCA and MINI USA will be very happy ($$$)with each other and SCCA will try to keep MINI happy in the long run.

[dickita15]

I have looked @ all but the FIAT, and Chevy Sonic.The Sonic runs @ 2800#. With the cars all on the same tire,I dont see the Sonic near the front after 4 hard turns, next to the Mazda @ 2300#.

Be advised that there may be some more juggling with regard to restrictors and weight so the issue you point out with the Chevy does not happen. The goal for the CRB is to balance all the cars. It will be a managed class.

[Flyinglizard]

Hi Dick , are you on the board? If so,please dont be offended;
I have no confidence in the SCCA board to keep this level. Only a pro style of 3 member board can do it right.IMHO. The plates/weights need to be placed maybe every race,IMHO.
Every winning car should get 25# for the next race, starting with qualifying.
There is nothing worse than watching a race with the fastcars in front and driving away. I always feel stupid when friends are over and we happen to watch some Road race . or race tape. They say to me> this is what you do>?? Why??
The tapes of the oval car are so much better. The winner( top 3) starts in the back and fights thru for 10 or 15 min. Pure excitement, sells tickets. Copy success, not failure.

The normal SCCA board will take 3 yrs to make Changes. NASA will be quicker.

Any pro series that needs to make money, will be very quick.
If you have inside knowledge, please expand upon how this will be any different than the normal club stuff.

RE The Sonic and Fiat. The Sonic will weigh almost 2600# bare nakedIMHO. and the Fiat can't make power. No amount of weights and plates will cheat physics. I dont expect the others to allow the cars to make 75 HP @ the wheels.

Any engineer in the world can put the cars on a lift and pick out the BMW/Mini as not fitting the spirit of the class. The Classic Mini was a true B spec car, maybe it should be allowed. The current Mini is a well designed small car with great driving dynamics. It is 8- 10K$ more than ,
most of the others.
Email me and I'll really tell you what I think.

Sorry. I just really hope that this is well done.
It is such an opportunity for the racers, the manufacturers, and all of the fans that may be.
MM

[Greg Amy]

Dick is on the Board of Directors.

In a nutshell, the way the system works is that competition adjustments/additions are the responsibility of the Club Racing Board (CRB). Adjustments/additions can be requested by the membership through the CRB's web page:

http://www.crbscca.com/

Those requests are initially forwarded to the appropriate CRB sub-committee* (such as the IT Advisory Committee), at which point that committee reviews the request and makes a recommendation to the CRB. The CRB will review that recommendation and act on it. All actions are subject to BoD approval. The CRB has the "change control" authority for intra-year performance adjustments, but if it's an actual rule change then that change must be submitted to the BoD for approval for the subsequent rules year.

* I don't know if there's currently a B-Spec Advisory Committee or not, either existing or in process. If you have interest in such a committee, you can use that form above to send in your resume.

Capiche?

GA

[JLawton]

Any engineer in the world can put the cars on a lift and pick out the BMW/Mini as not fitting the spirit of the class. The

Um, so build a MINI............ Hit the easy button and win all the races.

[dickita15]

Greg descibes it pretty well

[gran racing]

Um, so build a MINI............ Hit the easy button and win all the races.

As a new series, I agree that it would be a shame if this becomes true. It will defeat a part of it's purpose and we'll quickly see manufacturers backing out. I do think the CRB will find a way to get relatively close parity here though.

[Flyinglizard]

Greg,Iknow how it works now, or doesnt work now.
The speed of adjustment is whats not going to make it with this class.
It will have to be a 20min correction, not a 3month correction time.
Each track will have different values for time @ speed, Average aero drag, lap times, max V,

Maybe the rule could be written to "auto correct".
I could do that.

I got into a big doing last year whenI called out the SMAC , for having vested interest. A guy called me a POS and should go eslewhere. Right .
I dont think that anyone running the class should be on or near the board ..


PS. I thought about the "auto correct" concept. it could work.. The rule has to be blind ,with out regard to car,Just lap times and results.
MM
MM

[Greg Amy]

It will have to be a 20min correction, not a 3month correction time.
That will never happen. This is SCCA Club Racing, not SCCA Pro Racing with a full-time employed staff to review and make on-the-fly adjustments. You will need to rely on - or be a part of - the committee(s) that will make their "best effort" to provide as equitable parity as the system allows.

If that doesn't work for you, then Club Racing won't work for you and the actively-managed "pro" series (and the big bucks that come with that active management) beckon for your business.


Each track will have different values for time @ speed, Average aero drag, lap times, max V, Never happen, wholly unrealistic. Won't even happen in Pro.

Pick your best-average poison. You win some, you lose some. If you pick your average poison correctly, you win more than you lose. And in the end, that's-a what it's all about...

GA

[Flyinglizard]

Greg ,
The testing is very basic so far. 4 cars dont make a very complete test. There is no way that the weight s and plates should be valid for the whole year.

The class will die , as soon as the ringer is shown. The W & P must be a moving target within a few % pts., fo r at least the first year. The cars will get "Blueprinted" and pick up 10hp each in the first few races.
I went to PRI today to find out something. No news, very little info from anyone. SCCA has no idea who is ruuning it, Bad deal so far. Peter Keane was mentioned but he works with Irish Mikes and promotes the cars as a business. How can he run the deal , Total BS so far.
2 of 5 cars have the cages tabbed in like a ralley car. I figure that they will be grandfathered in.??
The only real way to run these is to chassis roll them, seal the ECU and engine . Other wise it will godown the SM road of 10hp for 10,000$.
MM

[MDSRT4Racing]

all i know if you want to run a plus 25K slow car, and have a shot at winning you better be a factory car, once you let the devel in 'he just dont leave with out your soul'

BTW who is it that is clammering to run the slowest class, is there a hole legion of guys who can afford to run and want to go slow

im sorry i just dont see the class, at least from a club and race partisipation increase satand point

[joeg]

I would happily roll slowly...snap rolls hurt.

On a serious note, this should succeed because it is the only class of car offering a modicum of IT prep for NEW and RELEVANT cars.

The fact that multiple sanctioning bodies are interested is a bonus.

[Greg Amy]

Mike, don't get your panties in a bunch about these specific cars you've been seeing. Every one of them is a show car, not a prepped race car. I happen to know for a fact, first-hand, that at least one of them - and third-hand at least two others - were tossed at cage builders with conversation that went like this:

- "Hey, can you cage this car for me?"
- "Uh, sure. What's the rules."
- "None yet. Gonna be a show car."
- "Um, Ok. When do you need it?"
- "Sunday would be good. We're showing it at the Runoffs in two weeks."
- "Oh."

All these cars you're seeing were built prior to any rules package being developed, and their sole purpose is to show them at the Runoffs, at SEMA, at PRI, etc. So don't get too upset, you won't be seeing them race.

Mike, you gotta keep in mind you're in on the ground floor of something that is moving faster than ANYTHING I've ever seen in my decades-history of SCCA racing. This is an idea that has gone from napkin, to demonstration, to race series in MONTHS. Damn straight there's going to be some bumps in the road, man! I can fully understand you're wanting to jump on this bandwagon as a business, but you're hitching your horse to a bandwagon that has yet to be built! Hell, right now it's barely in the prototype stage! I'm sure I'm not the only one that raised a couple eyebrows to see you publicly post how you're offering rentals and builds for something that doesn't even yet exist...

I'm just saying here that I recommend you temper your apparent frustration a bit, keeping in mind that there's a lot of different interests pulling things a lot of different ways, and there's going to be change. A lot of change. Some of it may go the way you predict and plan for, but a whole helluva lot of it won't. Keep working for this category, as with all this manufacturer interest and support I think it will be a good place to play -- once the dust settles. But if you're looking for something established and consistent and predictable, then you may want to jump into Spec Miata for now and let B-Spec ferment a bit, otherwise you're gonna drive yourself absolutely batty...

Patience. It'll happen. But it won't happen tomorrow.

GA

[Knestis]

I believe it can work.

It remains to be seen if the "multiple sanctioning bodies" idea nets out to be good or bad. It might serve to "dampen" rules changes, create gridlock, or be grounds for a schism but it certainly broadens the appeal.

And there IS going to be a conflict between the first principles that apply to a pro series, versus that for a club class. What Mike describes *might* work for a tightly managed pro game intent on making for good television (think BTCC) but it's certainly a non-starter for Club Racing.

There are some potentially good ideas that haven't been explored. If I were running the asylum, all of the cars would go into parc ferme after qualifying, and have their ECUs removed and put in manufacturer baskets for a blind draw and swap. (EDIT - don't invert the grid. Invert the ECUS in the cars on the grid!)

That black box is where most of the magic is going to happen, power-wise, and if the rules-makers can keep the lid on that, they'll be doing a lot.

K

[Flyinglizard]

I have a SM 1.6. That is why we have raced it in NASA. NOt SCCA due to the 99 cars being the only way . The NASA weights and plates have been adopted for SCCA this year and the car will be a reasonable in class again, IMHO.
The SM road is not a good road today ,IMHO. My engine is a known good value. It is "perfect" and within the rules. (As is the flyhweel, cam timing and entire car). The lack of control and cheaty cars have ruined the class. Mostly by rental shops that can remove the racer from the build values. Thus isolating the racer from any problems withe car legality.

The current fuel milage values , the strive for small cars that are fun to drive, the marketing value potential of this class should be addressed. Like I said, the drive away races that is a typical club race is a boring, non spectator parade event.
Face the facts. Even we dont watch the other races of that format. We do watch the SM races , the SRF race.Why? because shithappns.

I could sell TV time for this class, if I could run the format. The cars are slow. That allows a few things to happen. I have raced many cars/venues over the span of 30yrs . The best actual racing is the ice racing with 20cars, @ 50mph. And it makes a good spectator event due the all of the action .
The slower cars have a lot better cause /effect for very minor miscues. A little wide here, and a guy or two gets by . The Cup style stuff is very hard to pass . In a nutshell the wider the tires, the worst the racing .
No one will watch a parade of 80mph crap cans.

I totally agree withe ECU swap idea.
The inverted format does work well for the racing. ( short tracks use this method) The key may also be a 25# reward weight for the fast time , each session!! My PRO format will have the cars in a drafting ball, @ the end of the hour.
Yes it will have some rubbin, yes it will be controlled.
I could write it so that it is almost "auto correcting"
The Club racers should adopt the same weights and plates per pro specs @ 3 mon intervals
The old guard( and methods) @ SCCA needs to step away from this class to let it flourish.
If the corrections happen annually, there will be no second season.

Put me in charge, I'll make it happen..

RE, rentals. I hold the deposit checks until a date and car have been entered. I was hoping to have a car for the Feb 11 race @ Sebring. I have a few offers to buy a new Mazda 2 , just waiting for the word .
The cost will have to be $2000 or more plus a 15K crash bond. Sebring club race will be about 1600$ min.
MM

[DoubleXL240Z]

I was in World Challenge meetings and spoke with SCCA Pro at PRI.
Lots of talk regarding B spec, let me repeat LOTS of talk about B spec.
First, The cages in the Ford Fiesta, Kia and Mazda that are being shown are illegal and the builders know that. SCCA knows that too. Show cars and 1 1/2 builds the were done way before rules were set.
Second, WC is running 3 events with B spec in with TC. Each Saturday of the weekend will be two 30 minute races with a 5 stoppage in between. As it stands now, its hands off, no tire pressure, nothing. Then on Sunday a 40-45 minute race. Cool concept as that is 3 races in one weekend as to win contingency money. Also there was talk of contingency money not only paying 1st, 2nd 3rd in class but 1st chevy second etc.
Third, Tires are a Pirelli 195 15, at 252 each! Should be good for the whole weekend. Entry for a weekend is 2500.
Fourth, It has been brought up here and at PRI that no Pro licenses are allowed, that is absolutely incorrect as far as SCCA Pro is concerned. They will not have club racers in B spec cars racing against Pro drivers in TC. SCCA Pro said absolutely not during a Pro event will anything other than Pro licenses be allowed.
There is quite a bit of excitement going on about this class!!

[Flyinglizard]

The guy that runs Chevy racing powertrain , knows nothing about any $ for the B spec cars,. He is to get back to me. (Russ)

Honda ( Lee) has said the the $ will be the same for all of the players, $500 to win. All of the players are not in yet, thus the big ? mark as to viability for some of the cars.


A lot of non firm concept talk has gone on here. Lots of conflicting statements by guys, by people that are not in charge of anything!!

Find 3 people that are in charge of this deal?? post names.

The Bilstein shock package on the mazda/ford.. The Billy guy , in charge of the stuff for USA "has not done a shock package for anyone yet." (Bret Norgaard).

The entry pro fees have been stated as; "between 750 and 2500$"

"Grand Am is supposed to accept the cages as built and shown"
SCCA maybe not,not sure yet.

Some one ,must be trying to put the manufacturers on paper with $ commitments. No one seems to know who that is.

My take from( Fri) PRI is that; too many people may have some effect on this outcome, but no body can make it all happen.

The Pro license thing is a funny deal itself. You must have a new Pro tag this year. Never prior..
Still; the drive away race format, the slow correction rate, will not hold any audience, for a 80mph parade.

I will build car when the paper come out with solid #s. both pro and club.
Too approach the raceyness of the old "Renault Cup" would be a big deal and sell some TV time. No TV,no cash. No cash, no race.

" MM for BSAC"
Make it happen.

[Knestis]

Convene the Sooper Committee!

K

[DoubleXL240Z]

I believe its actually pretty simple. There is a ruleset, published, in place. B spec is a club level class that is very similar to IT or SS. The cage rules are very simple.
It is now a case of some Pro venues, Grand Am and World Challenge wanting to showcase and allow a low dollar class to compete, on TV, with Pro cars. There area few manufacturers already driving the class. One thing that was stressed at WC meetings and by WC people is that the manufacturers are supporting but there will not Factory cars or teams. No "Free" cars was stated.
Entry fee for WC is their decision, Grand Am is up in the air as far as that goes.
What we know:There is a class this year, it is racing in club, it is racing in WC. There is some support/money from the manufacturers. There is money to be made for the manufacturers. Chrysler/Fiat is selling a finished racecar. ??? There will be differences from club/WC/ Grand Am. Lets race!

[DoubleXL240Z]

Convene the Sooper Committee!

K
If that fails, than we'll loose all the founding!!:blink:

[StephenB]

I think that the measure of success for this class doesn't depend on tv time or any of that. I view this class as more of a stepping stone or a bridge from club racing to pro. a lot of talented club racing drivers will probably see success because of this class. there is no doubt in my mind that this class will succeed. if your measure of success is 10 year out tv coverage then I do not think it will be successful. I almost wish I didn't build my rx 8 and I built one of these!

Stephen.

[gran racing]

Stephen, you totally made the right choice. $2,500 entry fee? Really? F-that. I find the whole Spec B thing confusing. One minute it's being touted as a great way to get started in racing, then next a step towards pro racing.

[DoubleXL240Z]

Dave, I think you are missing the point. It is an inexpensive way to get into racing. It is still a club racing class. World Challenge and Grand Am are taking it to another level with a Pro Series aimed at getting racers noticed, and getting the manufacturers involved in racing. Theoretically one could build/buy one of these, switch from carts to cars this year regionally and go pro racing next year. Or a car owner can have somebody running regionals, one at nationals and somebody else running at one of the pro events. these are not maintenance whores, bleed the brakes change the oil every other event pads half way through the season. Not a fire breathing hand grenade that's on the dyno constantly looking for hp.
2500 for a weekend of pro racing is not that ridiculous ( can't believe I said that), especially considering it's 3 possibilities at prize and contingency money.

[Flyinglizard]

The pro level will have to have all of the HP. That means many hours on the dyno, looking for 2hp. Just like any other small bore racing.
Plate Karts are the worse, cuz they only have 5.8hp.The kart with 5.7 wont stand a chance. Those engine get pulled every other race.

Even the Chumpcar get s the compression and leak down every mon am. post race. When the #s get over 5% or under 185#,it comes apart.
The 5# drop in comression means 1 tenth @ 17sec oval track lap time, or about 1.5 sec @ Sebring long lap times. Both substantial in my world.
97hp will beat the 94hp car.

The big motor cars only get pulled when there is lots of cash on the line , or the driver got passed by the same motor /chassis combo. Other than that, they stay together until the oil # gets low. or the leak down is over 20%.

[dickita15]

At the manufacturers meeting I went to at the runoffs the people in the room agreed they wanted everyone to use the same rules and that SCCA club racing as controlled by the CRB would run the rule set. However while this was the desire of the 5 manufacturers’ representatives there now one can make any other sanctioning body do that unless of course the manufactures withhold support from a sanctioning body that does not comply and the car makes are large companies and who knows who makes final decisions.
There is a buy in that B Spec should be an inexpensive rule set that would allow people to race, rallycross and solo an easy to build car. The car companies want to get people off the couch. I do not think anyone thinks pro venues for these cars will be cheap to race but they add a cool factor to the class and would give a grassroots guy the chance to measure his effort against a pro field if desired.
If you are a B Spec club racer there is certainly risk running pro races. After all with more on the line there is a greater chance you could ball up a car and certainly the prep level will be pushed to the limit. As is often said here it is not the rule set that drives preparation expense it is competition. B Sec is like every other class you can spend whatever you want to spend.
I am excited about the class. you do have to be realistic about expectations though.

[Knestis]

Another idea for the pro series (serieses?) - Award manufacturer championship points way down the field, rather than weighting the front, in order to encourage broad, shallow support of lots of teams rather than big $$ support for one...

K

[DoubleXL240Z]

Another idea for the pro series (serieses?) - Award manufacturer championship points way down the field, rather than weighting the front, in order to encourage broad, shallow support of lots of teams rather than big $$ support for one...

K
I think part of that was addressed at the WC meeting on Friday that an expectation was to offer contingency money to the top three in class as well as 1st, 2nd 3rd Mazda, 1st, 2nd 3rd Chevy etc! You might be 12th overall but 1st Fiat and get contingency money! In theory, if this works out, there could be 15 people with potential for contingency money of some amount in each race.

[Ron Earp]

So, what is the average stock hp rating of these "B Spec" cars?

[DoubleXL240Z]

"Advertised" stress on ADVERTISED is between 101( FIAT) and 138 (Sonic)that I have found. Thats why there will be restrictors and weight compensations. Fiat at 2280 lbs and no restrictor, I believe the Sonic was 2800 lbs and 31mm restrictor. I've been reading so many numbers I may be off a bit.:blink:

[JeffYoung]

So target is 90 or so whp?


"Advertised" stress on ADVERTISED is between 101( FIAT) and 138 (Sonic)that I have found. Thats why there will be restrictors and weight compensations. Fiat at 2280 lbs and no restrictor, I believe the Sonic was 2800 lbs and 31mm restrictor. I've been reading so many numbers I may be off a bit.:blink:

[Ron Earp]

Sounds like ITB power/weight but with a lot of new vehicles? Well, not a lot of new vehicles but four or five new platforms.

[JeffYoung]

Slower.

Race weights are what, 2500 lbs or so? And 90 whp v. 110 or so for a good ITB car.

[Ron Earp]

Slower.

Race weights are what, 2500 lbs or so? And 90 whp v. 110 or so for a good ITB car.

FWD s-boxes with 90hp, with National classing (I assume that is coming) and manufacturer support, along with race shop built cars at $30k plus? That is sounding not so good to me.

The good thing I can see from it is maybe the SCCA modernize a bit and consider cages with the bars welded to the a-pillars and so on.

[JeffYoung]

I can see the appeal for some folks but in the thread above the politicking has already begun. That immediately turned me off.

Might be cool to watch but I have no interest (personally) in driving one of these things.


FWD s-boxes with 90hp, with National classing (I assume that is coming) and manufacturer support, along with race shop built cars at $30k plus? That is sounding not so good to me.

The good thing I can see from it is maybe the SCCA modernize a bit and consider cages with the bars welded to the a-pillars and so on.

[Ron Earp]

Might be cool to watch but I have no interest (personally) in driving one of these things.

But you could get sponsorship! You could race national! You could be on TV! You could go professional, cause after all, you'll be supporting pro races and you'll be sure to be picked up!

Or, you could just be driving a 90hp econobox that costs more than a top level IT build and is slower to boot.

[JeffYoung]

Can I wear my firesuit at lunch too?


But you could get sponsorship! You could race national! You could be on TV! You could go professional, cause after all, you'll be supporting pro races and you'll be sure to be picked up!

Or, you could just be driving a 90hp econobox that costs more than a top level IT build and is slower to boot.

[Knestis]

I'd totally do it. They aren't going to be substantially slower than ITB cars, once they are fully developed - probably 5 seconds at someplace like Atlanta, based on what we saw at the ARRC. And more importantly, there should be real racing. I *really* need to get my televised 1985 Laguna Seca Alliance Cup race digitized off of VHS for you to see...

K

[Ron Earp]

Can I wear my firesuit at lunch too?

Only if you wear the ripped one so your ass hangs out.


I *really* need to get my televised 1985 Laguna Seca Alliance Cup race digitized off of VHS for you to see...

K

No. Kirk, I really like you, but no. Leave that on VHS and in the 80s.

[JeffYoung]

Settle down Beavis. Nothing to be gained from looking at my ass.

[Flyinglizard]

I project the lap times @ Sebring @ 2:52, ITC speeds. or our 500$ Chumpcar speed.

The racing should be very good tho.

The Payout per manufacturer may lead to a concept that has not been seen before; Drafting with aother brand car, to get by the same brand car..

SCCA and modernize dont go well together. The cages are still IT point of contact style cages,(floating).
MM

[red986s]

Can I wear my firesuit at lunch too?

I just shot coffee out my nose. Oh the burn, the burn!!

[DoubleXL240Z]

Can I wear my firesuit at lunch too?
Even more important, at the breakfast buffet at the hotel!!

[lateapex911]

Can I wear my firesuit at lunch too?

Only if that suit has huge Porsche emblems festooned everywhere and if you take lunch in downtown Watkins Glen...(or some other downtown)....on a tuesday...

[red986s]

http://www.goracingtv.com/11/20/2011/racing-filters-episode-3/

[Flyinglizard]

CRB guys. can you look at these points please?

1) All of the cars that have been built , have rolled fenders to clear the tires, just like the rest of the IT cars.
Should it be fixed now as an oversight?.

2) "The lower control arm bushings may be replaced with eccentric bushings", how are you going to determine spec?? Either get rid of this rule or spec it.

I am not aware of any eccentric bushings so far, for any of the cars.

3) camber is often taken at the knuckle joint. As easy/cheaper than the slotted tops. This is the typical IT camber correction and well within the rule intention of this class.
Maybe the top strut bolt hole s should be allowed to be slotted?? Otherwise you will have some insert ,with a support bearing that fits inside the stock holes?
Doesnt make engineering sense to complicate a simple matter.

RE the cages; looks like they can not be tabbed to the A pillars or roof,B pillars.
Would structural epoxy stuffed in the A pillars/cage seam, be allowed??
Edit, Ifound one car without rolled rearfenders.

TIA, MM

[Greg Amy]

CRB guys. can you look at these points please?

http://www.crbscca.com/

[Kai Noeske]

Only if that suit has huge Porsche emblems festooned everywhere and if you take lunch in downtown Watkins Glen...(or some other downtown)....on a tuesday...

What do you mean? Rocking a Fiat 500 in Bspec totally warrants a Ferrari suit with matching red shoes! :D

[callard]

What do you mean? Rocking a Fiat 500 in Bspec totally warrants a Ferrari suit with matching red shoes! :D

You can only pull that off if J-Lo is your weekend squeeze:023:

[lateapex911]

You can only pull that off if J-Lo is your weekend squeeze:023:

Actually, if KAi shows up with jLo and he's sporting some dufus Ferrari suit I will give him TWICE the abuse.......just to really 'learn him', lol

[Simon T.]

Story time about race suits to lunch.

As most know the ARRC was my first race, well I did the test day Thursday and my co-driver came out to drive the later half and asked if we (myself and my one volunteer crew member of the day lol) wanted to go pickup lunch. I asked if they were going somewhere to eat inside or grabbing something in a drive thru as I didn't want to have to undress and redress over and over again. They said drive thru so I said I guess I'd go.

TRICK!

They took me somewhere to eat INSIDE. I argued and argued about it and tried to stay in the car. It didn't work. I ended up walking into a restaurant with my suit on. Words cannot express the embarrassment I felt. It was the worst thing I've ever felt. I felt molested.

Photos popped up on Facebook, I deleted them. lol My face made the reddest apple look white.

The guys that wear suits outside the track drive me insane, it was horrible playing that role. :(

/Story.

[StephenB]

Actually, if KAi shows up with jLo and he's sporting some dufus Ferrari suit I will give him TWICE the abuse.......just to really 'learn him', lol

Jake... Kai will be with jlo while your in line... :)

I actually think they are pretty neat econobox bars :) ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpi2IAec9Ho&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Stephen

[lateapex911]

Jake... Kai will be with jlo while your in line... :)

I actually think they are pretty neat econobox bars :) ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpi2IAec9Ho&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Stephen

Ha, thats a line I wouldn't be in for a second. I have ZERO interest in her. (Suspending, for a minute that i'm a nerd with a keyboard and me and Jlo is preposterous)
Of course, Kai and Jlo is even more preposterous. ;)
(Had to get that in Kai. ;) )

[DoubleXL240Z]

The chick in that Fiat comercial is match for Sophia Loren back in the day, well, like 3 weeks ago actually. I gotta buy one now!!
Not for nothing, we looked at the Fiat B-spec at PRI and was rather impressed with, of all things, the roominess!!! Sat a 6'2" 210 lbs driver in the car with no issues what so ever!! The seat could go down another inch and a half and back another inch as well.

[Flyinglizard]

She is hot.
Look around for contact info on racing the FIAT?? Top secret. same with Ford,
The Mazda 2, has the huge advantage of Mazda Comp,that answers the phone.
Mini has the dealer in the SE that will sell the kits.
Right now; the manufactures that appear to be in, are Mazda, Honda, .
Maybe Fiat,maybe Mini, maybe Ford. "MAYBE" MEANS THAT THEY HAVE NOT ANSWERED any email request for info.
Chevy has not replied at this point.

Nissan and Toyota will have no support @ this point.
For cash payouts, you will need to buy the factory kits for the car of choice.


SCCA has said that the FIAT will not be outclassed.
My reading into that, means that the rest of the cars will be slowed down. Interesting in that the Mazda 2 has no plate, and a good weight. The Fiat will have to weigh about 2000# to run with it.
I should have a car this week.
MM

[Greg Amy]

Ken Grammer has put up a "B-Spec" Forum:

http://www.b-speccars.com/

[Flyinglizard]

STill no real news. few contacts. "I know a guy @, but cant say who.."
The only real access is Mazda . They dont have kits ready yet as of 12/17.

The Ford has part #s on the parts site, but must be one guy only in charge, and "he is out of town until Jan 2".
The rumored entry fees are still on the roof for WC @ 2500$ per weekend .
I guess that you have to pay big money to be a "pro". New version of "Pro", is that the race is recorded for later TV at most .
If you win one of the "pro races", you should only be out of pocket about 1000$. Not counting the substantial peripheral fees.

Toyota and Nissan are not involved,as a result you can not enter either in a Grand -Am race.
That about the news for now. I am looking @ Ford , MINI and Mazda for the rental.
The ringer car should be decided by the second race. I will build what ever that is, for the second car.

[jumbojimbo]

Come on spammer, at least put a p*rn link in your spam. Kids these days can't do anything right.

[Greg Amy]

Come on spammer, at least put a p*rn link in your spam. Kids these days can't do anything right.
Deleted...and banned. "Old skool" knows how to handle this s**t... ;)

[Simon T.]

So...who's driving in Montreal with the CTCC during the F1 weekend?

[Knestis]

So...who's driving in Montreal with the CTCC during the F1 weekend?

Not embarrassed to admit that's part of the puzzle for me...

If it goes down as generally described by CTCC - at least as I understand it - the B-Spec cars will run as a class within a mixed Touring Car group. That's not terribly appealing but it could be worse.

K