SCCA HELMET UPDATE and other news!!!!

[Robert Zecca]

SA2000 helmets are still good thru 1/1/12. NO NEED TO BUY A HELMET if you do not need one!

Other news....as of 1/1/12 SCCA will require a HANS or similiar SFI 38.1 model head and neck restraint system. I just wanted to clear up any confusion because I realize money is tough for most and I do not want anyone being mislead into buying anything they do not need.

Good news.....Hans has dropped the Sport model by $50 so if you do decide to buy one please give me a call at 1-800-275-4667 and I will put you in the proper unit for $645 to your door with sliding tethers and fixed anchor posts which is the way to go!

LAST.....please give me a call for your holiday gifts......we do offer Gift Certificates in any amount which will make things easier on you. I appreciate your business!

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca
www.teamdi.com (http://www.teamdi.com/)


http://prodracing.com/prodcar/styles/subsilver2/imageset/en/icon_post_report.gif (http://prodracing.com/prodcar/report.php?f=4&p=109019)

[downingracing]

So Just over 12 months to talk them into 'not' mandating a H&N device... Get on those emails people! :)

In case they still force us to buy a device, do you sell any other devices that meet the SFI requirement?

Thanks!

[RedMisted]

So Just over 12 months to talk them into 'not' mandating a H&N device... Get on those emails people

Good luck with that. It's the perception of many that SCCA is in the Stone Ages because every other racing body has the requirement. I, for one, am against mandating.

[tom91ita]

or how about the obvious middle ground of mandate something that performs well as documented by 3rd party sled tests but does not meet SFI 38.1

if i race in 2012, it will not be with a HANS. i see them as part of the problem and not part of the solution.

[Simon T.]

Good news about the helmet although I may just buy one now. I thought they expired every ten years? Is SCCA just allowing them until 2012?

[JLawton]

or how about the obvious middle ground of mandate something that performs well as documented by 3rd party sled tests but does not meet SFI 38.1

if i race in 2012, it will not be with a HANS. i see them as part of the problem and not part of the solution.

I'm with you Tom. Anything but...............


Anyone here with experience with a Defender?

[Greg Amy]

Anyone here with experience with a Defender?
TDI Cup issued the "defNder" to its competitors, so AJ has two years of experience with them. That's what I'm probably going to buy.

GA

[dhardison]

I'm with you Tom. Anything but...............


Anyone here with experience with a Defender?

I've been using a Defender for around one and a half seasons. I had my doubts at first but once it's on and I'm strapped in the car I don't notice it at all. Since the device limits the amount you can turn your head from side-to-side, you learn to cut your eyes when checking your mirrors vs. physically turning your head. That took the longest to get use to.

With the Defender it's MUCH easier to have someone help you get the belts located properly when getting strapped in but it's not impossible to do by yourself. When getting out you just have to remember to toss your belts back so they don't snag on the device. I feel better with it on, but can also see where it might be a problem if trying to exit the car in an emergency situation (i.e. belt snag).

I ran one session this year without the Defender (borrowed a friend's helmet to try out his radios). My head definitely had better side-to-side mobility making it easier to check the mirrors but at the same time my head/neck felt like a rag doll in the corners. So even beyond the safety factor in the event of an impact, the device definitely aids in simple head/neck stability due to cornering Gs which in long sessions or enduros is beneficial.

Oh yeah, I had a chance to 'use' it late in '09 when I impacted a sideways BMW at speed. I had zero post-race neck pain from that impact whereas without the device I feel I probably would've been sore at best.

Dan

[EV]

I'm with you Tom. Anything but...............


Anyone here with experience with a Defender?
I have used both, and like it better than the Hans.

Same concept as the Hans, but it also has the vertical straps to help with side impact, Hans doesn't. It also comes in a one-size fit's all, so you don't have to choose which one you need. There are several adjustments to fit it to you. Finally, it comes with all the goodies Hans charges extra for (sliding tethers, quick release), and is priced right about at the Hans base price, but with all the extras.

I was cautioned that I would have issues with the little cover over the belt and it would limit my head movement. Ya, I notice it's there when I put it on, but once on the track, I find it useful, much like a neck collar. It helps support my rather large pumpkin in turns lessening neck fatigue.

[gran racing]

When getting out you just have to remember to toss your belts back so they don't snag on the device. I feel better with it on, but can also see where it might be a problem if trying to exit the car in an emergency situation (i.e. belt snag).

This is what is so commical about this whole stupid SFI mandate and Isaac device. Other devices actually have exercises and a twist documented on how to get the belts off. Otherwise you'll be stuck with them on. Just stupid.

[EV]

This is what is so commical about this whole stupid SFI mandate and Isaac device. Other devices actually have exercises and a twist documented on how to get the belts off. Otherwise you'll be stuck with them on. Just stupid.
That illustrates that "complies with specifications" isn't always equivalent to intelligent.

[tom91ita]

i too like the looks of the defNder in part because it is not a HANS and in part due to the price point.

but after the debacle with Impact's equipment and not knowing what safety equipment we might be buying that can later be rescinded, i think the whole SFI certification process is unnecessary in a modern era. i respect that others may say it is more necessary due to bogus websites, etc.

however, when you go to the SFI website, they do not list defNder as a manufacturer. i have no idea why or if the website is just slow or lazy or what. i am not trying to say that they are not approved. i am saying i would want to confirm why they are not listing it. as i noted above, it is my first pick at this point.

http://www.sfifoundation.com/

i would be seeking something from SCCA Tech that says that the defNder is an approved device before i buy one.

and my current plans are No racing in 2012. it will be a cash saving season to buy safety equipment for 2013.

[CRallo]

I have alot of thoughts on the subject... but it comes down to ANYTHING but HANS! I won't buy one.

[EV]

i too like the looks of the defNder in part because it is not a HANS and in part due to the price point.

but after the debacle with Impact's equipment and not knowing what safety equipment we might be buying that can later be rescinded, i think the whole SFI certification process is unnecessary in a modern era. i respect that others may say it is more necessary due to bogus websites, etc.

however, when you go to the SFI website, they do not list defNder as a manufacturer. i have no idea why or if the website is just slow or lazy or what. i am not trying to say that they are not approved. i am saying i would want to confirm why they are not listing it. as i noted above, it is my first pick at this point.

http://www.sfifoundation.com/

i would be seeking something from SCCA Tech that says that the defNder is an approved device before i buy one.

and my current plans are No racing in 2012. it will be a cash saving season to buy safety equipment for 2013.
Might be worth an email to Defnder. Their site lists it as SFI compliant.

[chuck baader]

Been wearing a HANS for 2+years and feel necked without it. I don't know its on when in the car. I had a fairly significant impact with the T1 outside wall last July, and was damn glad I had it on. I don't use the sliding tethers for the reason that I wanted some side restraint. Mine is also adjusted such that I get very limited side to side motion so my mirrors must be adjusted perfectly. I was reluctant to buy one initially, but now I recommend any new driver to buy one in their initial equipment purchase. Works for me. Chuck

[downingracing]

I've had several large hits without a H&N device. Might have been a little soar after, but nothing major. In my closed top car, I will not use a Hans. The window net must fall down (when the car is right side up) and I believe the Hans could cause me issues getting out of the car if if were not right side up! (See Joey hand video and read the interview - linked a billion times on most race sites)

That is why (if I keep racing) I wont be using a Hans. The defender looks better, bit the risk of the belts hanging up is a concern as well. I know there are devices that use webbing tied to the body and those devices do not interest me.

I'm still for allowing folks who feel they are needed to use one but would prefer to not be required to use one.

[Cobrar05]

1. Dont be fooled by that 1/1/2012 date. That means you have this year coming to get a new helmet. I am shopping now.

2. I race SCCA and NASA and have had to have a H&N restraint for two years. I use the Hutchens Hybrid. I prefer it to the HANS. Its different than the HANS/Defender style. I have never had an issue getting hung in my belts to get out. I also have a halo seat. I have come to realize that in the seat I just dont need to turn my head that much. Other than parking and pulling out of a parking space.

[Cobrar05]

I've had several large hits without a H&N device. Might have been a little soar after, but nothing major. .

Dale Earnhardt said the same thing. Just sayin'

[erlrich]

I'm still for allowing folks who feel they are needed to use one but would prefer to not be required to use one.

^This. I still haven't heard anything that makes me believe there is more risk to the club in "stongly suggesting" the use of a H&N device versus mandating one.

That said, after doing some research, if I decide to continue racing with SCCA after next year it will be with the Defnder.

[Greg Amy]

Dale Earnhardt said the same thing. Just sayin'
Very good point, given that in SCCA Club Racing we usually race at the high speeds of NASCAR, on banked tracks, and constantly right up against concrete walls.

I suggest, thought, it's best not turn this into a religious discussion, 'cause that's exactly what this is (e.g., "I've seen the light, Brothers!! Better to pray because if you don't believe in SFI, then when you die you'll go straight to hell...at least if you pray you have a chance, AMEN!!!")

<rolleyes>

GA

P.S. A lot more people have been killed by deer than in motor racing incidents...so it's probably best not drive on the street. Oh, and you should buy some of that lion repellent they sell on late night TV, 'cause I've not been attacked by one since I bought it... just sayin'...

[downingracing]

Dale Earnhardt said the same thing. Just sayin'

And to be serious, I've come way closer to being hurt off the track than on the track (while at the track). I've also tossed out belts that had seen the light of day 20 times (stored inside and transported in enclosed trailer, but were 'no good' due to the date stamp on them. Also have had a good hit and no one marked or took the belts or made a note in the logbook about replacing them. I did replace them because I USED them. They did what they were supposed to and there was a little stretch. If we want to get serious about safety, start looking there...

Edited for stupid Droid auto-complete.....

[Cobrar05]

Greg, we do run at Daytona and a guy can hit that same spot in the wall at 150mph or more in SCCA club racing cars that race there. Right? For certain we've had club racers wreck at very high speed at Road America and end up in ICU.

I ran over something at Roebling Road and blew at left front at 155mph and crashed front impact.

It only takes once. And yes, there are many ways to get killed in the paddock or on your way to and from the race track.

I personally dont care if you wear a fire suit, if you dont want to. you have to. its a rule.

[Greg Amy]

you have to. its a rule.
LOL! I love it when people use logic like that...

[almskidd]

Might be worth an email to Defnder. Their site lists it as SFI compliant.

Hi Josh -

This is a clerical issue. Your defNder and all defNders sold are SFI
approved, as shown by the SFI sticker on your device. No worries.

Thank you.

[Cobrar05]

I am curious. What among the required safety items SCCA mandates would you pass on if they were all optional?

[Greg Amy]

I am curious. What among the required safety items SCCA mandates would you pass on if they were all optional?
Irrelevant. "My opinion" is unimportant to your Truth (well, that and apparently the opinion of the majority of SCCA members...)

The logic "fale" come when someone is claiming that we cannot argue about a rule that's not yet in affect because it's going to be in affect and we have to follow it. You know, all that "Cause I Said So and I'm the Mommy!" thing. Besides, "they" know what's better for us...right?

Yes, yes, I suppose someday we'll accept HANS and SFI as our own personal saviors; one day we'll cross over the bridge to everlasting salvation to join you and we'll all hold hands, rejoice in our new revelation, and sing Kumbaya together (in tune, of course).

But until then it's probably best to stay on your side of the rainbow...

Just Sayin'.

GA

[RacerBill]

if i race in 2012, it will not be with a HANS. i see them as part of the problem and not part of the solution.

+1 to Tom's remarks.

Since the chances of getting 38.1 changed are about as good as a snowball in hell, I am seriously considering the Hybrid Pro Rage by Safety Solutions (www.SafetySolutionsRacing.com (http://www.SafetySolutionsRacing.com)). A friend who races in World Challange uses it and reports good results in unscheduled real life tests!!!! Tried one on at the IMIS show in Indy last week in a racing seat with belts and it felt good.

[raffaelli]

TDI Cup issued the "defNder" to its competitors, so AJ has two years of experience with them. That's what I'm probably going to buy.

GA


+1. Just purchased one. Everything you need is in the box.

[Cobrar05]

+1 to Tom's remarks.

Since the chances of getting 38.1 changed are about as good as a snowball in hell, I am seriously considering the Hybrid Pro Rage by Safety Solutions (www.SafetySolutionsRacing.com (http://www.SafetySolutionsRacing.com)). A friend who races in World Challange uses it and reports good results in unscheduled real life tests!!!! Tried one on at the IMIS show in Indy last week in a racing seat with belts and it felt good.

Thats basically what I use. Hutchens=Safetysolutions

[raffaelli]

I just called defender to double check the 38.1 approval status. They said the person I need to speak with was out and will get back to me. (it is lunch time here). They thought I was one of the people sending an email about the same thing.

I dropped a note to SFI for verification.

[downingracing]

Hi Josh -

This is a clerical issue. Your defNder and all defNders sold are SFI
approved, as shown by the SFI sticker on your device. No worries.

Thank you.

But how does one know that the SFI sticker/patch is real and actually 'still' valid? The ?Impact? situation with items sold as SFI, but then not, then OK, then not all (or whatever the current status of that mess is...) has caused (at least me) confusion on the whole SFI thing. So how is someone to know if their item is / is still SFI certified?

[Greg Amy]

So how is someone to know if their item is / is still SFI certified?
Same as how we know for the Impact stuff: assumed valid unless otherwise specified. As a scrutineer, if I see a sticker and don't have any notification from Topeka that's it's invalid, it's assumed valid. And the Impact thing was not new: we had the same thing with FIA certs on some seats a few years ago.

So, as far as I've heard, the deNder is still SFI certified.

GA

[Russ Myers]

When are THEY going to start mandating all of this stuff in SoloII??? They dont, have to have HANS, fuel cells, dated belts, etc. But solo drivers could die just the same. I mean, it COULD happen.

Russ

I am not in favor of mandated hans devices. my car wouldn't see 150mph with a 175mph tail wind.

[jjjanos]

Greg, we do run at Daytona and a guy can hit that same spot in the wall at 150mph or more in SCCA club racing cars that race there. Right? For certain we've had club racers wreck at very high speed at Road America and end up in ICU.

I ran over something at Roebling Road and blew at left front at 155mph and crashed front impact.

And if I'm doing 150MPH in my racecar, an SFI-certified head and neck restraint system won't save my life because hitting the ground at the bottom of the cliff is going to do me in.

The requirement is stupid. How many SCCA drivers have died as a result of basal skull fracture in the last 5/10 years? How many were incidents were an SFI 38.1-certified device would have been useful?

Now ask youself... how many SCCA drivers have died, while in their car, on track, because of suspected heart attacks? You do realize that the fire suits we are mandated to wear add stress to our hearts?

I have directed my estate to ignore any on-track death unless I have a heart attack and if I do, I'm requiring my estate to sue SCCA for its gross negligence in requiring these heart-stressing safety devices when SCCA had ample evidence indicating that on-track heart attacks were the leading cause of on-track injury and death.

[lateapex911]

Dale Earnhardt said the same thing. Just sayin'

Not the best comparison. Earnardt was warned my many that his belts were installed incorrectly, and that he wore them way too loose. He told them to pound sand, he was Dale Earnhardt, and he wanted to be comfortable.

His death resulted in a lot of changes, but, we will never know what would have REALLY happened if he had installed and worn his equipment properly, and as it was designed for.

[Matt93SE]

Now ask youself... how many SCCA drivers have died, while in their car, on track, because of suspected heart attacks? You do realize that the fire suits we are mandated to wear add stress to our hearts?


Maybe SCCA should mandate we all go on a diet and work our way up to running on a treadmill in 100+ heat to develop a tolerance to heat stress? just sayin'..... :026:

[lateapex911]

Yes, I DO find it comical that I often witness guys in seriously poor condition being allowed to race. They drip out of the car after a 30 minute session looking like they just completed a marathon.
Seriously? yet we continue to see regular deaths from mysterious health issues that have nothing to do with car or racing related incidents.
And there are those that will say, "Personal choice, if they wish to risk their lives in that condition then that's their freedom".
uhhh, no, it's not, as the unbraked car that carries the unconscious victim can plow into other innocent participants.

But the SCCA blindly looks the other way, as enforcing stricter requirements (stress tests, physical conditioning tests and standards) would severely limit participation.

yet bogus standards are forced upon us ...eliminating superior solutions to the issue.....because of the fear of being sued.

Most galling is that "Standard" was written by a self serving company masquerading as a organization only interested in perpetuating safer racing, when in fact, it's internal pitch to manufacturers uses "more sales" as a cornerstone.

I understand that the club needs to balance differing priorities, but it's particularly saddening when common sense is last on the list.

[lateapex911]

Maybe SCCA should mandate we all go on a diet and work our way up to running on a treadmill in 100+ heat to develop a tolerance to heat stress? just sayin'..... :026:
Actually, would that be so wrong? Seriously, the club SHOULD enforce that we are capable of operating in the stresses we are likely to encounter. Sorry, but I see A LOT of guys who are far far from what any even charitable person would consider 'physically fit'.

[jimbbski]

I've never run with NASA and i don't think I will run again with SCCA in the future if this stands. Ove the years, i started racing in 1988, I have done 90% of my racing with MCSCC and I will stay there for now. Also I can attend all of their board meetings if I choose and vote on changes like this in person. I don't think MCSCC will ever make a Hans type device manditory, not if I can help it!

SCCA does not listen to the membership. It's run to much like a business and less like a "club".

[raffaelli]

I just called defender to double check the 38.1 approval status. They said the person I need to speak with was out and will get back to me. (it is lunch time here). They thought I was one of the people sending an email about the same thing.

I dropped a note to SFI for verification.

I did get a returb call from defender. Voice mail saya that there is an adminstrative thing which has caused its removal from the sfi site. It is certfied.


No return email from sfi yet.

[downingracing]

I've never run with NASA and i don't think I will run again with SCCA in the future if this stands. Ove the years, i started racing in 1988, I have done 90% of my racing with MCSCC and I will stay there for now. Also I can attend all of their board meetings if I choose and vote on changes like this in person. I don't think MCSCC will ever make a Hans type device manditory, not if I can help it!

SCCA does not listen to the membership. It's run to much like a business and less like a "club".

Fine line between listening to your members and listening to lawyers ... It is a fine line and one that I feel deserves additional consideration. Regardless, I feel the scca is still the best game in town for road race (hands down!).

[gran racing]

I'm beyond annoyed with this ruling but don't entirely blame it on SCCA. I do think there are better restraint systems out there but it's about law suits and cover your ass. If (when) there's a death and family / attorney's feel ($$$$) that SCCA should have mandated a HNR regulation yet they didn't....sucks, but it's up to a jury. The SFI badge is the easy way out, and it would take balls for SCCA to do something different. The club is already a slow moving ship; trying to do this would be pretty huge. A part of me says it's still possible.

Another challenge is where to draw the line and how to define "lawsuit protected" versus "actual driver protection". I laugh at some of these almighty SFI devices worn by guys with left side window nets (yes, plural), drink bottles, radio communication set, and a guide on "how to remove the belts exercise". Taking the lawsuit protected option is easy. For now, that is.

[Simon T.]

Is everyone really that upset if SCCA mandates the use of a H&N system? I haven't read one single good argument in here to WHY they should not mandate it.

It's cheap insurance.

I could see some worried about it being harder to get out of the car and what not but I'm sure you can figure out a plan in case you're upside down and on fire and need to get out.

Also how does a racing suit affect your heart? :shrug:

[Greg Amy]

It's cheap insurance.
So is "not racing"; in fact, it's a lot cheaper and a lot safer.

Simon, it's personal risk v reward. Plus, calling these devices "cheap" is a bit of an understatement; I remember someone (on this board?) posting a list of all the "safety equipment" someone has to buy just in order to rent a car to go to a school, and it's pretty staggering (go ahead, price it out).

Secondarily, that whole "SFI thing" upsets a lot of people in that they have HANS-mandated requirements for certification, and one has to send money to the SFI to get their product "certified" (basically, they're paying "protection money" to an org that's being run by the major players in the industry.)

At some point you have to recognize that racing is inherently dangerous, and somewhere along the way on the risk v reward curve it's really beginning to flatten out to the point of offering no return. Toss in there a lot of politics and having better-performing options excluded, and it becomes a touchy subject.

GA

[Cobrar05]

i'll ask again, what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option?

I have a grand am compliant car. fire suppression, right side net, head restraint seat, hutchens hybrid.

[gran racing]

I haven't read one single good argument in here to WHY they should not mandate it.

Yet another cost and barrier to entry to some. I would have fallen into that catagory back when I started. Even now, it's gonna hurt next year if the SFI deal remains. Weren't you just recently looking for hand-me-down race belts? (And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that btw.)


what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option?


That stupid fire bottle that rests on the floor of my passenger footwell for one.

Why not mandate a full fire supression system? Or lets increase the build standards on cages? But for now that's not the discussion.

[Simon T.]

i'll ask again, what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option?

I have a grand am compliant car. fire suppression, right side net, head restraint seat, hutchens hybrid.

All of it. A roll bar, seat, and harness is fine for me. lol

:023:

[raffaelli]

I did get a returb call from defender. Voice mail saya that there is an adminstrative thing which has caused its removal from the sfi site. It is certfied.


No return email from sfi yet.


SFI sent me an email which says "Defender chose not to renew certification at this time, but they can sell previously certified existing inventory".

[Greg Amy]

I have a grand am compliant car. fire suppression, right side net, head restraint seat, hutchens hybrid.
I'm sure you're probably the safest m'fr on the planet...I'm certain you think you are...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Just sayin'.

GA

[Greg Amy]

'Defender wouldn't pay us our protection money that we require in order to give them the stickers to slap on each of the units you buy, which of course don't affect the suitability or safety of the unit. But then, without that sticker, you can't buy one for SCCA competition next year. Call HANS -- or I can transfer you directly over if you'd like...'

Fixed.

[erlrich]

i'll ask again, what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option?


Well, let's start with a SFI-compliant H&N restraint...

[RacerBill]

SFI sent me an email which says "Defender chose not to renew certification at this time, but they can sell previously certified existing inventory".

Just what does 'previously certified existing inventory' mean? Sounds like it the inventory that has the SFI sticker on it that Defender already paid for. My understanding of how that works from talking to a manufacturer of safety gear is that they (the manufacturer) pays SFI 1) a fee to use the SFI name (become a participating manufacturer), and 2) another fee for each SFI label they put onto their products. And, of course, we know that SFI does not really certify anything - they just write the standards and the manufacturers certify that their products meet or exceed those specifications. Pretty sweet deal, considering that they don't even spend any money developing some of the standards.

Does anyone know if the SFI is a profit or non-profit corporation, and what are the compensation packages of the officers, owners, etc.?

[Knestis]

i'll ask again, what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option? ...

Running the risk of starting to care about the politics of this again - and with respect - you're missing the point.

I wouldn't pass on anything and have, in fact, regularly exceeded the minimum mandates for safety equipment since the very first time I put on Nomex in 1986.

For example, our old IMSA car required that the window net be attached to the door, and that the door be pinned. I had no confidence that the door would stay shut in a rollover - even with the pin - so I wore arm restraints. I've always had a fire system in my cars, when a bottle would have done it. I had a custom-made 4-layer suit back when only ONE layer was required. I ignore guidance re: where to put the nozzles (don't care if the engine burns up) based on my experience work in the safety business. Etc. Etc. Etc.

What I WOULD do is make the best decision for me, in my circumstances, with my car, on the courses I race, in order to accomplish my more-than-minimum standards - irrespective of what SFI thinks is the right answer. I know too much about how that organization works to believe that simply following their tags around will make me as safe as possible.

K

[Knestis]

SFI sent me an email which says "Defender chose not to renew certification at this time, but they can sell previously certified existing inventory".

Well that's interesting, isn't it...? You all think the new units are inherently less safe than the ones with the stickers? Hmm...

K

EDIT - Bill's understanding and description is spot on. SFI is a registered non-profit.

[erlrich]

Does anyone know if the SFI is a profit or non-profit corporation, and what are the compensation packages of the officers, owners, etc.?

SFI is a 501(c)(6) corporation. For the last year reported ('09) it had total revenue of ~$1.34 million, of which $928k was from "Sales of inventory" (labels?), $150k was from "Licensing fees", and $255k was from "Laboratory testing fees". Its only officer who earns anything worth mentioning is Arnold Kuhns, who earned ~$233k in '09. Its major expenses were salaries & payroll expeses (~$627k, not counting Kuhn's salary), overhead (~$233k), travel & conferences (~$70k), and insurance ($39k). Their research & development expense for that year was ~$25k.

[Robert Zecca]

Guys.....I read this thread and all the individual opinions in which everyone is entitled to have. I opted not to sell Defender from day one and now I understand they are not presently compliant? I know Hans works......and have saved many lives. Please keep me in mind when and if you do buy a Hans. I do not set the rules.....SCCA does....all I try to do is be honest with you and do my best to get you safe and proper equipment and a good price.

I know the board is working on some ProIT stuff and it looks like we are on again next year with ARCA at NJMP. The deal was just inked.

I hope all else is well with everyone.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

[Russ Myers]

Show me the empierical data that shows that it has actually saved a life. I need to see numbers. Getting out of a crashed car and saying that this thing saved my life is nonsense. Thats like saying if I hadn't studied, I wouldn't have passed that test. How do you know??? If this is the case, then how did I survive my wreck at Road Atlanta in an SSC Fiesta,that only had a roll BAR( no cage), stock factory seat, with no attachment to said bar, and window net attached to the doors window frame? And I gave that armco a mighty wollop.

Russ

[Simon T.]

Show me the empierical data that shows that it has actually saved a life. I need to see numbers. Getting out of a crashed car and saying that this thing saved my life is nonsense. Thats like saying if I hadn't studied, I wouldn't have passed that test. How do you know??? If this is the case, then how did I survive my wreck at Road Atlanta in an SSC Fiesta,that only had a roll BAR( no cage), stock factory seat, with no attachment to said bar, and window net attached to the doors window frame? And I gave that armco a mighty wollop.

Russ

Really? Come on now.

Your wreck could of gone many different ways. LUCK is what I think of it. Have you seen on board wrecks with a driver not wearing a H&N? Some are bad, some aren't. It's that little tiny angle and other variables that can make a driver tell their luck story or tell us they recommend a HANS from a hospital bed.

[Cobrar05]

I'm sure you're probably the safest m'fr on the planet...I'm certain you think you are...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Just sayin'.

GA

ok...thats not the spirit with which i am participating in this conversation. personally, i dont understand the blow back on this subject. i mix with many that participate in other groups and never hear this complaint. only here.

its ok with me if you want to race in shorts and a tshirt. really. i dont care unless it significantly increases my entry fee or my license fee.

i was just curious why you felt this way. i'll just read from here out on this subject.

[Raceman77]

Well it get frustrating reading some of these post. I feel it is all about how much saftey equipment you want. SCCA tells us you need this or you dont race. I started racing 2 years ago. I decided that I would use the HANS to protect myself the best I thought I could. My first season I totaled my car. I hit 3 of the 4 corners on the car. It was an original front end impact with someone elses front. He was stop and i was pushed up into him with no where to go. I feel with out the HANS or any other head and neck device I would not have walked away from the car easily. I would not have woken up the next morning with out any neck pain. Yes it was a big purchase but in the end I need to wake up Monday morning to get to my office to run the show. As far as i am concerned is they work.

IT7 81
JB

[Russ Myers]

LUCK? Exactly my point. I wrecked, and I walked away. My 1year old son falls 6 feet off of a garden wall, lands on his head, and gets up and walks away. By what everyone there saw, he should not be 24 years old now. Eric Medlin was wearing a hans device when he was killed in a racing wreck, Scott Kalitta was also wearing a devics. It didn't save them. So I have two positive that it didn't save versus ??? that it did.

I do not see a definate need for them in SCCA club racing. Tell me why there is a need besides it Might save my life. Not racing might save my life, but there are still no gaurentees.

Russ

[gran racing]

I agree they work, but some work better than others and it has nothing to do with an SFI decal. Actually, my biggest complain is that I can't use a product that I genuinely feel does a better job protecting me. Yes, it pisses me off that I need to downgrade to a device. I know clubs are mandating the SFI green ($$$) badge due to litigation concerns.

Bob, no one is pissed off at you but this certainly is a subject (SFI cert) which reaks in political BS.

Okay, so that's another reason why not to mandate H&NR. If it's not mandated, we can use other non-SFI devices.

[RacerBill]

Just to throw a little more gas on the fire, I was told by a retailer of safety equipment not to believe the neck-load reduction numbers (you know, the numbers that show how well these H&N devices reduce neck loads in various angle impacts). ??????????????

And it was not Bob, or anyone in his organization.

[lateapex911]

Is everyone really that upset if SCCA mandates the use of a H&N system? I haven't read one single good argument in here to WHY they should not mandate it.

It's cheap insurance.

I could see some worried about it being harder to get out of the car and what not but I'm sure you can figure out a plan in case you're upside down and on fire and need to get out.

Also how does a racing suit affect your heart? :shrug:

Simon, here is MY reason why it's a bad idea.
I will be LESS safe as a result of the mandate.
"How can that be?", you ask...
Well, quite a few years ago, I did my research. Even though we race (and crash) at lower speeds than many other categories, I decided that getting some H&N protection was a good idea.. BUT, I think that safety is more than one item. How that item interfaces with all the other elements is key.
I decided that the HANS was a poor choice. It's performance numbers were poor compared to other devices, in certain modes. It had issues with the belts slipping off, rendering it useless, or worse, it could conceivably cause injury. The lack of protection in it's lateral modes could be minimized by the use of a halo seat. But, that too has a downside: reduced window real estate. Once crashed, and presumably upside down or in another position where the door is inoperable, getting out becomes significantly more difficult with a big halo seat in the way of the window. I'm 6'3, so it's much different than it is for somebody 5'9".

So, I chose a system that exceeded the performance of the HANS, and eliminated the need for the space robbing Halo style seat.

But, SFI, in it's collusion with the HANS folks, wrote very limiting language into the 38.1 spec, language that makes it very difficult to achieve superior performance. The language limits the architecture of the design. It's as though the UL existed way back when the light bulb was invented, and asked Mr Edison to write a spec on the matter of home lighting, and he specified that all home lighting that was to be approved by the UL was of a tungsten filament design. No Arc vapor, no HID, LED, etc etc.

Anyway, for years I've been driving with a device that has been tested by the top labs and shown to be of the highest performance.
Now, if this rule passes, I will throw that device away, and replace it with a poorer performing device. For around $700. Then to attempt to recover some of my lost performance, I will need to add a Halo seat. Proper FiA versions are easily $700, and proper mounts will add over $100.

But wait. I'm still not as safe, because getting out of the car is a much more difficult task due to the reduced window aperture*.
So....roughly $1500, and I'm less safe. That's just dumb.

That's my one good reason.

* I know, I should go buy a different car. :shrug:


I suspect the racing suit comment is based on the fact that people with weaker hearts, or who are in poorer physical condition, typically have heart attacks and other related trauma when they are pushed to extremes. Like heat. Obviously, operating a racing car causes some people to have a faster heart rate, elevated breathing rate and so on. Add the heat of summer, magnified by the extra heat in some racing car cockpits, and then add on top of that, a multi layer, poor breathing racing suit, and you have a recipe for sudden health issues.
Does the suit itself cause the heart attack or other trauma? No, years of neglect, hereditary issues and so forth do, but the conditions provide the straws that break the camels back. My casual observations show that many or most of the recent deaths in club racing have been health related, and not due entirely to crash trauma. Seems to me that's a major issue that we should examine more closely, but, it will be a highly controversial one.

[gran racing]

I just spoke with DefNder and they will continue to wear the SFI badge. Every few years it's necessary to go though the SFI renewal process ($$$) and it'll be renewed.

[downingracing]

Same as how we know for the Impact stuff: assumed valid unless otherwise specified. As a scrutineer, if I see a sticker and don't have any notification from Topeka that's it's invalid, it's assumed valid. And the Impact thing was not new: we had the same thing with FIA certs on some seats a few years ago.

So, as far as I've heard, the deNder is still SFI certified.

GA

But..... Tech only sees my equipment/car once a year to look at the safety stuff. Even if an event tech is done for equipment, I've got multiple suits, gloves, shoes/socks... No one is 'really' looking for the details on the grid (and they shouldn't be!). Grid checks for gloves, belts (on, not the date), helmet sticker, tech sticker - and they do a GREAT job at that!!! You are on top of the rules and what is going on with the SFI stuff. What about the tech inspector/racer who isn't plugged in and made aware of this stuff? As a driver, If I show up at a track with the proper sticker/patch on my gear and someone tells me it isn't valid - we've got a problem. If the rule requires the SFI sticker and my X has that sticker/patch, I should be good.

This whole conversation is funny to me because 'we' mandate new belts every 2 years. Going to require an SFI H&N device in 2012. All in the name of safety! But I can still wear an SFI suit from 1988 (or earlier) as long as the patch on the suit is 3.2/1-5 (or whatever it is). Then there is the "I used the belts, but they are still in the car" issue I mentioned earlier. I appreciate the legal issues with the H&N argument. I'm sure they work and have the potential to save a life. My issue with the HANS is that at 6'4" 225, I WILL have issues getting out of my car (wheels up or down). Again - Read Joey Hand's article about his crash at Mid-Ohio. He says speciffically that the HANS saved his life - THEN trapped him in the car. Yea - No thanks.

If I'm still racing in 2012 and this rule becomes law, then I'll do something. It will be the cheapest option that doesn't trap me in the car. And mobility shouldn't be an issue, because I can wear the teathers as loose as I want! :D

[tom91ita]

here was my last letter to the CRB & BOD:




To: BOD, CRB May 12, 2010

Re: SFI Head & Neck Restraint Requirements for 2012

I would like to reiterate my opposition to the SFI requirement as I do not believe that SFI Certification does anything to improve my survivability in the event of an accident when I am already wearing an H&NR design that outperforms anything that SFI certifies.

The recent debacle with Impact racing products should give us all cause for concern. I am very reluctant to spend ~$700 on a device that can have the certification revoked over where the certification labels were sourced.

I have previously requested that the H&NR requirements be performance based rather than whether or not the device has the official SFI label. The documentation requirements can be met by using a third party such as RSI. A sanctioning body such as SCCA would only need to define a performance requirement in terms of the force exerted on the neck (SCCA could select the same force as defined by SFI). H&NR manufacturers would then submit test sled results completed by an independent lab to RSI for publication. RSI could compile these test results. The following is an example of what a driver could review and decide which would best meet their needs.

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/TestGraphs/Chart1.GIF

This methodology could easily supplement the SFI certification rule. If a device is later decertified by SFI as a result of where labels were sourced but has been proven in actual test sled results, then the SCCA members’ investment would not be deemed null and void.

The nearly 1000 words in the beginning of the GCR under the topics of Assumption of Risk and Release and Waiver of Liability, Assumption of Risk and Indemnity Agreement ought to count for something.

SCCA’s demands that I actually reduce my personal protection after I have literally signed away all rights to sue and litigate are unreasonable and have no place in a member driven organization.

Regards,

Tom


and Jake, I have a bone to pick with you!

your post regarding heat stress and heart attacks will cause SFI cool suits to be mandated in 2013! crap!

in a longer and boringly detailed letter, i pointed out to the BOD and CRB that the SFI mandated design is seriously flawed from a reliability viewpoint.

the basis of the design is to transfer the force to the helmut to the posts to the tethers to the SFI device to your chest and then the belts.

why not transfer the force to the belts and get rid of a couple of Links in the system?

and thanks to those that actually took the time to contact SFI and defNder to check on the status.

[jjjanos]

Is everyone really that upset if SCCA mandates the use of a H&N system? I haven't read one single good argument in here to WHY they should not mandate it.

It's the 38.1 requirement.


Also how does a racing suit affect your heart? :shrug:

The suit makes you HOT. Your heart beats faster to try and push more blood to the skin surface, but that won't work because there's no evaporative cooling, so it beats faster still. You breath faster in an attempt to dispel heat through your breath. That causes your heart to beat faster.

[CRallo]

Can someone please explain why my existing belts have to be redesigned for my HANS!? NTM some of the special HANS belts make it damn near impossible to get out! :/

[JoshS]

Huh? Your belts don't need to be redesigned, although you should be certain that they are mounted properly (which you should be doing anyway.) Certainly nothing should make it harder to get out.

Although I'm not thrilled with the industry actions and activity of HANS or SFI, I have been using a HANS since 2005. I think I'm safer with it than without it. I have properly-mounted HANS-specific belts from Schroth in the current car (they are 3" towards the buckle but 2" where they go over the shoulders) but other than that there's nothing different about them than any other belts, and in hindsight I don't think they are really any better.

[Knestis]

...This whole conversation is funny to me because 'we' mandate new belts every 2 years. Going to require an SFI H&N device in 2012. All in the name of safety! But I can still wear an SFI suit from 1988 (or earlier) as long as the patch on the suit is 3.2/1-5 (or whatever it is). Then there is the "I used the belts, but they are still in the car" issue I mentioned earlier. I appreciate the legal issues with the H&N argument. ...

Why do you suppose SCCA adopted the life-out rule for belts...?

And for the record, the SCCA has explicitly stated that escape time is not an issue to them. I requested that the Club adopt a rule the mirror's NASA's requirement that drivers demonstrate that they can get out of their cars in a particular time. The response (May 2010 Fastrack) was "There has been no proven need for this requirement in Club Racing."

Given that, neither the "trapped by the net with my Hans" argument NOR the purported "you can't get out fast with an Isaac" arguments matter even one iota.

K

PS - I passed NASA's bailout test with all of my gear, including Isaac, excluding only my drink bottle (used only in enduros). Their requirement was 10 sec out the door (15 out the window). I did it (door) in 8 seconds.

PPS - It scares the crap out of me, wondering what would have to happen to "prove" that there's a "need" for a bailout rule.

[jhooten]

Do we really want to become NASA? They spout they are a grassroots organization yet the url for their website is nasaproracing.com. Having worked their races (made me a corner captain the first time I showed up) I choose not to run their events.

Make your case but "we should do it cause NASA does it" don't fly with me.

[Z3_GoCar]

Another issue with using a HANS is that the teathers have an expiration date(2 years). So if the SFI 2 year belt/window-net date burns your derryair, be warned. The flip side is that some organizations expect all the other types (Defender/R3/ect) to have expiration dates on their teathers like the HANS, which they don't. Dates on the teather isn't even part of the certification for 38.1, but HANS decided to put it on all the same.

[raffaelli]

Another issue with using a HANS is that the teathers have an expiration date(2 years). So if the SFI 2 year belt/window-net date burns your derryair, be warned. The flip side is that some organizations expect all the other types (Defender/R3/ect) to have expiration dates on their teathers like the HANS, which they don't. Dates on the teather isn't even part of the certification for 38.1, but HANS decided to put it on all the same.


Window nets expire?

[Simon T.]

Simon, here is MY reason why it's a bad idea.
I will be LESS safe as a result of the mandate.
"How can that be?", you ask...
Well, quite a few years ago, I did my research. Even though we race (and crash) at lower speeds than many other categories, I decided that getting some H&N protection was a good idea.. BUT, I think that safety is more than one item. How that item interfaces with all the other elements is key.
I decided that the HANS was a poor choice. It's performance numbers were poor compared to other devices, in certain modes. It had issues with the belts slipping off, rendering it useless, or worse, it could conceivably cause injury. The lack of protection in it's lateral modes could be minimized by the use of a halo seat. But, that too has a downside: reduced window real estate. Once crashed, and presumably upside down or in another position where the door is inoperable, getting out becomes significantly more difficult with a big halo seat in the way of the window. I'm 6'3, so it's much different than it is for somebody 5'9".

So, I chose a system that exceeded the performance of the HANS, and eliminated the need for the space robbing Halo style seat.

But, SFI, in it's collusion with the HANS folks, wrote very limiting language into the 38.1 spec, language that makes it very difficult to achieve superior performance. The language limits the architecture of the design. It's as though the UL existed way back when the light bulb was invented, and asked Mr Edison to write a spec on the matter of home lighting, and he specified that all home lighting that was to be approved by the UL was of a tungsten filament design. No Arc vapor, no HID, LED, etc etc.

Anyway, for years I've been driving with a device that has been tested by the top labs and shown to be of the highest performance.
Now, if this rule passes, I will throw that device away, and replace it with a poorer performing device. For around $700. Then to attempt to recover some of my lost performance, I will need to add a Halo seat. Proper FiA versions are easily $700, and proper mounts will add over $100.

But wait. I'm still not as safe, because getting out of the car is a much more difficult task due to the reduced window aperture*.
So....roughly $1500, and I'm less safe. That's just dumb.

That's my one good reason.

* I know, I should go buy a different car. :shrug:


I suspect the racing suit comment is based on the fact that people with weaker hearts, or who are in poorer physical condition, typically have heart attacks and other related trauma when they are pushed to extremes. Like heat. Obviously, operating a racing car causes some people to have a faster heart rate, elevated breathing rate and so on. Add the heat of summer, magnified by the extra heat in some racing car cockpits, and then add on top of that, a multi layer, poor breathing racing suit, and you have a recipe for sudden health issues.
Does the suit itself cause the heart attack or other trauma? No, years of neglect, hereditary issues and so forth do, but the conditions provide the straws that break the camels back. My casual observations show that many or most of the recent deaths in club racing have been health related, and not due entirely to crash trauma. Seems to me that's a major issue that we should examine more closely, but, it will be a highly controversial one.

Very good info. :023: Thanks for sharing. I see some of the concerns now, especially with the SFI stuff.

[downingracing]

Quote from Joey Hand after his crash at Mid-Ohio:
"When it was all said and done, I came to a stop upside down. I was still in the seat, and the first thing I noticed was my right shoe was off. I blew my right shoe off and my right glove somehow. I unbuckled myself and fell down out of the car onto the roof. There was fuel running down my back and into the roof of the car, and oil and stuff. The corner workers were yelling to get out of the car because it was going to catch fire, and I couldn�t get out because my HANS device was stuck in the window net, and the window was smaller than normal."
(Bold added by me)

Source:
http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=35920

[Simon T.]

Quote from Joey Hand after his crash at Mid-Ohio:
"When it was all said and done, I came to a stop upside down. I was still in the seat, and the first thing I noticed was my right shoe was off. I blew my right shoe off and my right glove somehow. I unbuckled myself and fell down out of the car onto the roof. There was fuel running down my back and into the roof of the car, and oil and stuff. The corner workers were yelling to get out of the car because it was going to catch fire, and I couldn�t get out because my HANS device was stuck in the window net, and the window was smaller than normal."
(Bold added by me)

Source:
http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=35920

That sounds horrifying...

Is there not a in between type of head and neck system that could be made? Something smaller?

[CRallo]

That sounds horrifying...

Is there not a in between type of head and neck system that could be made? Something smaller?

oh there are... and some of them even out perform the HANS during an impact in every way, they just don't meet the SFI cert that was written specifically for the HANS.

And here in lies the issue...

[lateapex911]

oh there are... and some of them even out perform the HANS during an impact in every way, they just don't meet the SFI cert that was written specifically for the HANS, in cooperation with the makers and designers of the HANS..

And here in lies the issue...

And that's the 'nice' way of putting it......
(just sayin'....)

[Simon T.]

oh there are... and some of them even out perform the HANS during an impact in every way, they just don't meet the SFI cert that was written specifically for the HANS.

And here in lies the issue...

Oh how it all becomes clear! :023:

[tom91ita]

with regards to where the net has to be attached and/or fall. i fastened mine with clips top and bottom so that i can completely remove easily or just unclip from the bottom or top as the reference might seem if the car is upside down.

i think this is a good idea whichever H&NR you have/get.

[lateapex911]

I did the same

[callard]

Ditto

[Cobrar05]

i use a hutchens hybrid from safety solutions. it is sfi qualified. its a nascar and nhra approved device. its very much different than a HANS.

just wondering, how much of this push back against mandating a device is against the actual mandate and how much of it is a result of the ISAAC is not sfi approved therefore not available?

[Knestis]

... just wondering, how much of this push back against mandating a device is against the actual mandate and how much of it is a result of the ISAAC is not sfi approved therefore not available?

A very good question. Both are out there but my sense is that among the pusher-backers it's probably about an even split.

K

[tom91ita]

i bought the least expensive Isaac device shortly after the CRB (or was it BOD?) effectively adopted the position that they were "recommended" and not mandated.

then a few months later, the announcement was made they were to be mandated.

i have always maintained that if you want to dictate a level of performance (force on the neck, etc.), fine. but by specifying SFI 38.1, you are not allowing the best combo of performance.

and as Jake has noted, you should like likely upgrade the seat if you cannot use the Isaac.

[Knestis]

...and you should think long and hard about having both right AND left side interior nets at the point you've got a winged seat. This kind of example is at the root of my "we need to worry about the entire system" concern. We can't mandate individual pieces in isolation and expect that the result will actually *be* safer conditions for the drivers.

K

[gran racing]

Why do you need both nets for winged seats? You wouldn't need them for other seat types?

[Knestis]

In an offset hit, your noggin stretches out forward and sideways beyond the wings. If it snaps back into the end of - our beyond - the wings, you get perfect conditions for NSS (Noggin Separation Syndrome, aka basilar fracture of the skull). The side nets need to be tight to wing, to guide said noggin back into its comfy location.

K

[tom91ita]

i started a thread to discuss best ways to mount these side nets to get them tight:

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?p=315481#post315481