STx in DI Pro IT

[anthony1k]

I'm thinking of asking the series administrator to consider opening the DI Pro IT series to STU and STL cars next year. Any thoughts?

[CRallo]

I don't think its a good idea... Its ProIT, not ProST :/ SM fits because its such a similar ruleset. ST is a whole 'nother ball of wax...

Ntm The car counts in ProIT do NOT seem to need help(in the NE) so it would only dilute the competition.

If you want to double dip, most places have an ITE/U/O that would work.

That said, its not a bad thought and kudos for putting it out there!


Lots more to say but I'll keep it simple.

[thedude12]

Hi guys,
I am new on the forums, however I will put my 2-cents in. I think this will be a disaster for ITS and ITR. Lots of these STU cars are very fast on the straight aways and slower around turns, this would hold up the ITS/ITR group. I believe it would lower enrollment in ITS/ITR and overall hurt the series

[RedMisted]

I think it's a good question. I'm not familiar w/ the series operator, but IMHO, it's all about the health of the series. If the car counts are low in a venue, the welcome gate typically gets opened. (Reference the Mid Ohio IT Fest, now featuring non-IT cars to help pay the track bills.)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Car counts are not low.

[StephenB]

Don't do it!

If you want hire car counts then do a split start Pro-it and Pro-sm. Just remember we already have to qualify to race at lime rock...

Stephen

[dtanthon]

Only thing I heard so far for sure for 2011 is changing the finish points, there will be a cap on those. Once we get things finalized they will be published on www.ProITSeries.com (http://www.ProITSeries.com).

We are still working on the schedule. Did hear maybe split starts, a competition yellow to bunch the field at 20 minute mark and only count x of y races toward championship. Also had a request to use the pro course at Lime Rock (but no National at LRP in 2011 so we may not go there in 2011?!?!). All under discussion.

Pro IT Series Awards - January 22 at SJR party (includes Pro IT and NJRRS awards) at NJMP Officiers Club. Registration is on www.DLBRacing.com (http://www.DLBRacing.com).

Feel free to update your profile on www.ProITSeries.com (http://www.ProITSeries.com).

[Greg Amy]

If STL is included I'll participate, but if you're already filling the fields I see no value in it for the series. - GA

[benspeed]

I appreciate the suggestion running ST in Pro IT but I think it wouldn't be much fun. The top STU cars are putting down 300hp to the wheels - not really IT performance...

[Andy Bettencourt]

I want the name of the person who wants to use the pro course at Lime Rock. So I can beat them with a stick. LOL

Who the heck would want to wreck a good flowing track? Ugh.

I bet the Team Di Pro OT could get a run group during a Regional at LRP. I know I would double dip there.

[Greg Amy]

Who the heck would want to wreck a good Miata track? Ugh.
Fixxored.

;)

[thedude12]

I agree with Andy, who would want to run the other course at limerock. This would def. take away from enrollment. Alot of people do not like the optional course

[benspeed]

LOL - you got that one Greg! Sure ain't a big HP track. Maybe crapping up the flow will jam up AB :-)

sorta sounds like it could constipate him...

[Greg Amy]

...who would want to run the other course at limerock.
Me. Don't you have any interest in trying something new? It's hard to take "a lot of people's" opinions on the matter since as far as I know other than ALMS drivers no one's raced it that way...

Throw in some spice once in a while, try something new.

Just sayin'.

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Me. Don't you have any interest in trying something new? It's hard to take "a lot of people's" opinions on the matter since as far as I know other than ALMS drivers no one's raced it that way...

Throw in some spice once in a while, try something new.

Just sayin'.

GA

I'll do you one better, lets set up cones all the way down the front straight and let's make half of it an autox. And according to you, EVERY track is a Miata track!!! Let's put a couple more bus-stops at Pocono...

The Club @ LRP has run it and I have not heard any good feedback. There is a difference between adding spice to enhance flavor and wrecking the meal. I bet you would have a ton of people NOT go if that was the format. It's an afterthought design intended to keep uber-fast cars slow and safe.

[Greg Amy]

You're being silly, Andy. But it is your primary (almost exclusive) track... ;)

Spice it up, we need more than the Missionary Position at Lime Rock. If Pro-IT runs the "pro" course, I'll probably rent a car to drive it.

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

You're being silly, Andy. But it is your primary (almost exclusive) track... ;)

Which of course is totally not true. And I think the suggestion we run the Pro course is just as silly.


Spice it up, we need more than the Missionary Position at Lime Rock. If Pro-IT runs the "pro" course, I'll probably rent a car to drive it.

GA

We 'need' it? Really? For the entry they get out of you, they lose mine. Does it intrigue me? Sure, and there is no doubt those who are fast there now will be fast in any config but no feedback I have read or heard isn't dissappointed in how it wrecks the experience. BUT - maybe there is a ton of guys looking to try something new at LRP, and I would be dead wrong on what drivers want...I think it's more about race format than track format.

[Greg Amy]

Uncle, Andy; you obviously feel very strongly about this. I'll stop pissing in your pool... ;)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Uncle, Andy; you obviously feel very strongly about this. I'll stop pissing in your pool... ;)

Actually no, the more I think about it, the more I am just projecting the feedback I have heard about a configuration I have never driven - and I suppose that is not fair.

So. lets drive it. The only issue I bet it creates is some false equality at the downhill because nobody will have to lift and it'll take some skill out of it.

[CRallo]

Holy thread jack batman! :p

should we rename this the "Input/Discussion for the 2011 ProIT Series"? :p

[benspeed]

I love to see Greg and Andy mix it up - extreme entertainment value.

Chris - total threadjack....but I will say this - I'd run the pro course at LRP but I sure want to see how it goes before I put my car out there. LRP is the one track I always worry about getting wrecked at and I wonder if the pro course creates more contact or not.

[thedude12]

Greg I am assuming you like the alternate course, however most people who have driven it feel it does not work well with there cars. It was an after thought and the regular track is much better. If you want to run the alternate course make friends with someone at the limerock club and use it then. Or convince a drivers school to run it and mess around with it that way.

[StephF]

Spice it up, we need more than the Missionary Position at Lime Rock. If Pro-IT runs the "pro" course, I'll probably rent a car to drive it.

GA

That's sig line material right there!
:happy204:

[lateapex911]

I love to see Greg and Andy mix it up - extreme entertainment value.

Chris - total threadjack....but I will say this - I'd run the pro course at LRP but I sure want to see how it goes before I put my car out there. LRP is the one track I always worry about getting wrecked at and I wonder if the pro course creates more contact or not.

It becomes a start stop course. Get through the esses, brake hard. (but maybe not enough of a straight for passing?) thread the chicanery, and then drag race to west bend. Rinse, repeat.
Classic course has some real subtlety to it, and carrying speeds through the corners is paramount. A major aspect of that would go away, and as Andy mentioned, the downhill, now one of the more demanding corners in club racing would be an easy flat no brainer.

When we run the double chicane arrangement at NHMS, I stay away. Tried it, hate it. It takes the signature corner (NASCAR 1 and 2) away from the track. In my eyes, the west bend chicane would do exactly the same thing to Lime Rock.

[anthony1k]

Contrary to what it appears, this thread is still on topic: change. Good or bad?

STx in Pro IT, good or bad. Opinions seem to be running against the idea. I like the series and the long race format and I would love to be able to run my STU. But if the powers that be decide otherwise I'm fine with it. Having said that, I think it it will be a mistake not to selectively open the door to new paying customers. STU and STL cars will fit nicely in this series. Think STx as IT 2.0. Yes, STL's and especially STU's have the potential for big HP but, with the exception of a handful of cars at the runoffs, we have not seen that yet. And yes, most races this year were well subscribed but having even more cars next year is a good thing in my opinion.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I disagree Anthony. The last thing the series needs is a couple cars that handle great in a straight line out there potentially getting in the way of the fast ITR/ITS/ITA guys. The guys that the series is built around.

Now if there was 10 of them, we could boot SM!

[Matt93SE]

Andy, RE Lime Rock pro course... Just like I tell my wife when I try to get her to do something other than missionary.. "C'mon- try something new! Just give it a shot- you just might find out you like it!" ;)


okay, back to the topic..
Referring to post #3, I don't understand how an STU car is slower than an IT car in the corners. At least not how a well-prepped STU car would be slower anyway..

STU = ITS + power + aero + tire (from ITS) + suspension + brakes - weight - that damn washer bottle
ITR has bigger engines and more power, but they also have more weight and only 1/2" more rim width allowed. given the aero and suspension options available in STU, that should negate the 1/2" of wheel width.


so I'm curious as to how anyone would come to the conclusion that properly built STU is slower than ITS or ITR in the corners...

[lateapex911]

Andy, RE Lime Rock pro course... Just like I tell my wife when I try to get her to do something other than missionary.. "C'mon- try something new! Just give it a shot- you just might find out you like it!" ;)

Sorry to hear that.....caveat emptor and all that lol...



okay, back to the topic..
Referring to post #3, I don't understand how an STU car is slower than an IT car in the corners. At least not how a well-prepped STU car would be slower anyway..


STU = ITS + power + aero + tire (from ITS) + suspension + brakes - weight - that damn washer bottle
ITR has bigger engines and more power, but they also have more weight and only 1/2" more rim width allowed. given the aero and suspension options available in STU, that should negate the 1/2" of wheel width.


so I'm curious as to how anyone would come to the conclusion that properly built STU is slower than ITS or ITR in the corners...Same way a ITS Mazda RX-7 holds up the ITB race leaders. No excuse for it in anyone but a novice, and even then, they should know to get out of the way, yet we see it frequently.

And, at this point, most STL and STU cars are double dippers or, at best, underdeveloped ST cars. I bet you can count on one hand the number of full tilt boogie STU and STL cars ...in the country....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, RE Lime Rock pro course... Just like I tell my wife when I try to get her to do something other than missionary.. "C'mon- try something new! Just give it a shot- you just might find out you like it!" ;)


okay, back to the topic..
Referring to post #3, I don't understand how an STU car is slower than an IT car in the corners. At least not how a well-prepped STU car would be slower anyway..

STU = ITS + power + aero + tire (from ITS) + suspension + brakes - weight - that damn washer bottle
ITR has bigger engines and more power, but they also have more weight and only 1/2" more rim width allowed. given the aero and suspension options available in STU, that should negate the 1/2" of wheel width.


so I'm curious as to how anyone would come to the conclusion that properly built STU is slower than ITS or ITR in the corners...

The problem is that there is no guarantee that there WILL be a properly built and driven STU/STL car there. Since there are so few of them and the prep of many of what I have seen is not at the level of the front row of the Runoffs (see Greg's video from RA), what you want to avoid is cars that will interfear with the premier cars the series was designed for. THAT will kill more entries than you could add IMHO.

What I DO see working is what happened at LRP last year. A Pro IT AND a restricted regional - both during the National weekend. Those two added run groups got the event into the black. It was an awesome weekend. Lobby for some more restricted regionals with that group included. One-off events yes, not a 'Pro' series built around other classes.

[Greg Amy]

...so I'm curious as to how anyone would come to the conclusion that properly built STU is slower than ITS or ITR in the corners...
Esepcially since Andy has declared, simultaneously, that:

- The ITS Integra GS-R is competitive in ITS, and;
- The STL Integra GS-R will walk the field in STL.

Ergo, one can only conclude using that logic that an STL Integra - a car that should be well slower than a poorly-built STU car - should be leagues ahead of the ITS field...

Of course, if we are to follow the logic subsequent to that, said poorly-built STL (nee ITS) Integra GS-R would actually be a double-dipper and thus be legal for ITS and thus....legal to run Pro-IT in ITS. And, thus, irrelevant vis-a-vis whether it's there "holding up" the "premier cars" as an ITS or STL car...

And is the issue:
- The class the cars' in (e.g., the stickers on the side);
- The level of prep (e.g. Ok if it's a full prep, not Ok if it's half-arse);
- The hang-up of "the premier class" in general, regardless of class, sportsmanship, and/or prep; or actually
- The nutbag behind the wheel and his attitudes about general racing sportsmanship, regardless of class and prep?

Just askin'.

Damn, I hate topic drift...

P.S. Don't care either way, just wondering about the logic behind this. I didn't race any Pro IT races in '10 so I don't really "have a dog in this fight"...

[Andy Bettencourt]

The concept is simple. Adding STU/STL for a couple of cars doesn't seem like it's worth the headache it could cause. I'd feel the same way about AS, FP, EP, etc.

Just sayin'.

[Greg Amy]

Adding STU/STL for a couple of cars doesn't seem like it's worth the headache it could cause.
I did read it. Very closely.

But I also agree with the above statement: if the Pro-IT race group does not need the numbers, and the numbers that STU/STL would provide if included are small, then it's not worth adding them.

GA

[Matt93SE]

Let's also pretend to think 5 years out. there are only a handfull of properly built STU cars out right now, but what do you think it's going to happen in 2-3-5 years?

... Realize I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I'm trying to present all options so people make the most informed/best choice for the long term, not just for today. If that means to table the idea and come back in a couple years if/when STU gets going, then that should be one option to discuss.

OTOH, how do you think the STU guy feels while trying to pass that "slow" ITS car on the straight and he's 'protecting his line'? By the time the ITS car got to the corner, the STU car would have already been out of the way since it would have gotten there a sec earlier. ;)

Now.... looking at some recent race results, the STU cars at ARRC were just as fast as the ITR and ITS cars. It appears at least a couple of them were double-dippers and I don't know enough about any of these guys to know who's who other than to look at results and look for matching names and cars on both results sheets. But the point is the STU cars are as fast currently as the fastest ITR/ITS cars. give them a couple years of development and the IT cars will be holding back the STU cars.

Now... since it's ProIT and anything that's not IT is crashing the party, would it be a faux pas to run something other than an IT car? If you're going to invite STx, why not invite Prod cars too? and and and and.... ;)

several variables here. how many do you want to incorporate?

Edit.... please realize I'm stirring the pot to smell the aromas, so to speak. As GA said, I don't have a dog in this fight either. I run one of those poorly-built STU cars in SW division and have finished 1/2 in class and 2/3/4 in group in the impressive 4 races I've run so far. But I also realize SoW Div is *not* the place to be (yet) for IT/ST cars. Nationally I'll be an also-ran, but I'm just a n00b and you better watch out in a couple years. ;)

Mainly I'm here throwing caveats, what-ifs, gotchas, flys in the ointment, and pushing your buttons just to see what your opinions are on the subject.

[benspeed]

I say - you want to run Pro IT - get an IT car. No mercy for the STU guys who are envious of the AWESOME Pro IT series. Hey, you can go run NATIONALS. :-)

I'll be at the Nationals racing STU in my ITR ride getting CLOBBERED by the WC BMWs that are going to dominate...but I know that I'm going to get beat. It's different if I was going to visit a National to race SM in my ITR car so I can whip everybody. That would be very LAME.

[Jeremy Billiel]

But....

Most STL cars will not be faster than ITS cars and most STU cars are not any faster that ITR so its not a speed or danger issue. What you are claiming is that STX cars will screw up ITx races. How is this any different than any other combined race? if people in STx cars are being a douche kick them in the balls after the race? :shrug::shrug:

[Andy Bettencourt]

But....

Most STL cars will not be faster than ITS cars and most STU cars are not any faster that ITR so its not a speed or danger issue. What you are claiming is that STX cars will screw up ITx races. How is this any different than any other combined race? if people in STx cars are being a douche kick them in the balls after the race? :shrug::shrug:

Because we can AVOID THE PROBLEM ENTIRELY. :dead_horse:

[Greg Amy]

Because we can AVOID THE PROBLEM ENTIRELY [by excluding some classes from the mix]
Ugh. What silly logic. If that's the goal, and that's your solution to whatever "problem" you're trying to resolve, then I think we need to make Pro-IT for *just* ITA cars, and *just* those with experience, and *only* those with a pre-approved top-notch prep. That way all four of you can have a wonderful, great, conflict-free, open track HPD day.

Silly, silly, silly.

[Dano77]

Kinda with Andy on this whole thing. Isnt it called Pro IT not Pro St. If you would like Pro Super Touring,they got that. its called World Challenge.

IT = Improved touring
ST = Super Touring

Dont get me started on the whole concept of ProIT,dont like it at all. Story for a different venue. But it is what it is and its here to stay. Leave Pro IT for IT cars.

Should lose the SM too but....

[ulfelder]

One driver's opinion: I will never, ever run Lime Rock in the Pro configuration.

Lime Rock is my favorite track even though I don't do particularly well there. I love the challenge of puckering up for the Uphill, West Bend and the Diving Turn all in rapid succession. For me, that is and always will be the track's appeal. Swap in a couple of slower, more technical chicanes or turns (note I resisted the urge to say "Mickey Mouse" :D), and I'll pass.

By passing, will I miss out on a good thing? Maybe. But my race weekends are finite. I balance a bunch of factors in setting up my season schedule, as do most of us, and LRP loses its luster - for me - when those three gorgeous corners are pulled from the equation.

Steve

[Matt93SE]

I have a new name for Andy's proposed ProIT......

http://blehmco.com/stuff/he-man%20STx%20Haters%20club.jpg

:D

[Greg Amy]

Dan, I'm with Andy on his whole premise, too. And I agree with you and Ben. I, too, have a bias against allowing non-IT cars into a series designed to showcase IT cars, unless it's of value to the series.

But let's not try to justify our biases with silly illogical excuses.
One driver's opinion: I will never, ever run Lime Rock in the Pro configuration.
Here's something funny ("ironic" funny, not "hah hah" funny).

I've been around long enough to where I'd heard the same things before. Seems to me I heard a lot of grousing about the Bus Stop Chicane at Watkins Glen (and this is someone who almost got killed there before the Chicane after completely losing brakes at ~130mpg: me.) I seem to recall someone saying it would destroy the character of a key area of the track and take away one of the most challenging corners in racing. No lie. And I personally remember - and personally said - things about how the dogleg at Road Atlanta (10A/10B) would decimate a defining characteristic of that track and make Turn 12 a piece of cake, no-lift pussy corner. And of course, though I've not driven them there's the "variantes" at Imola, the neutering of Hockenheim, and of course the cutting off of the balls on the long LeMans straight, among other historic tracks.

But, you know what, in the end I still hear people talking about all those tracks with reverence and awe, and as far as I can tell they're not hurting for competitors to show up.

And I challenge anyone to call the Carousel at WGI or T12 at Road Atlanta "easy".

And here's the really cool thing about this proposal at Lime Rock: It's optional, you can always run it the other way any time you want. You can't do that at Imola or Hockenheim...

Try "cowgirl", it's fun and not too traumatic.


I have a new name for Andy's proposed ProIT...
Ok, that got a laugh... ;)

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

I have a new name for Andy's proposed ProIT......

http://blehmco.com/stuff/he-man%20STx%20Haters%20club.jpg

:D

Now THAT is silly. Like I said, it's PRO IT. It's successful. Why in the world would you want to potentially throw a wrench into the system that is flourishing? Especially for 1 or two cars? Again, it's not about STx, it's about ANY class that has the characteristics to screw up the races for the guys who gas built the series from scratch. Any support for GTL, EP, FP? Doubt it. Get enough cars together and create a series or run group that can support itself.

Is that harsh or exclusionary? Maybe but at some point it could be the right thing to do - FOR THE SERIES. It's not about me, obviously, as ITA doesn't run at the front of these awesome races.

Does ANYONE see more benefit that potential downside for one or two cars? As STX counts grow, then it should be considered because the revenue will offset the issues (if there are any).

[lawtonglenn]

Most STL cars will not be faster than ITS cars and most STU cars are not any faster that ITR so its not a speed or danger issue. What you are claiming is that STX cars will screw up ITx races. How is this any different than any other combined race? ...


I agree :lol: ... so I propose that ProIT allow SRF, FP, T3, and FV too, they are all around the same speed ... think of the participation numbers!!! :lol:

[lawtonglenn]

here is the new SARCASM flag:

[anthony1k]

I agree :lol: ... so I propose that ProIT allow SRF, FP, T3, and FV too, they are all around the same speed ... think of the participation numbers!!! :lol:

Now that is really silly. IT cars are allowed and classed in STx because they are closely related in many ways. That's why I asked the question. No one is asking for SRF, FP, T3, and FV to be included.

[Andy Bettencourt]

No one is asking for SRF, FP, T3, and FV to be included.

Yet.

[lawtonglenn]

... IT cars are allowed and classed in STx ....


which is a perfectly good argument for allowing IT cars in the (yet to be announced) ProST series,
but is an inadequate argument for the other way round

all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares

[benspeed]

Particularly well said, Glenn!

PS - I was going to same something along the lines that playing "up" a class is a little more noble than playing down...

[StephenB]

I'm thinking of asking the series administrator to consider opening the DI Pro IT series to STU and STL cars next year. Any thoughts?

Anthony,

On a serious note... why? What is wrong with running already existing races in regional or national races weekends?

Stephen

[Matt93SE]

Now THAT is silly. Like I said, it's PRO IT. It's successful. Why in the world would you want to potentially throw a wrench into the system that is flourishing? Especially for 1 or two cars? Again, it's not about STx, it's about ANY class that has the characteristics to screw up the races for the guys who gas built the series from scratch. Any support for GTL, EP, FP? Doubt it. Get enough cars together and create a series or run group that can support itself.

I guess you missed the smiley at the bottom... it was a tongue-in-cheek response cause I was bored at work and felt like a laugh.

I never said I disagree with your line of thought either. It's just more fun to argue and push your buttons and play devil's advocate. http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/lamer.gif

[anthony1k]

Anthony,

On a serious note... why? What is wrong with running already existing races in regional or national races weekends?

Stephen

Stephen...nothing. I just threw out a question that fueled a spirited and fun debate. It is clear where opinions are so it sounds like a non starter.

[Terry Hanushek]

Anthony


I'm thinking of asking the series administrator to consider opening the DI Pro IT series to STU and STL cars next year. Any thoughts?

We have looked at including STU cars in our Pro IT series and have decided not to take this approach in the coming year(s). Our primary reason is that virtually all of the cars currently running in STU are IT cars already eligible for the series. We want to concentrate competiton in the core classes not disperse it to alternative classes. Unfortunately this excludes the few non-IT cars in STU (primarily ex-WC cars).

Terry Hanushek
Pro IT Chief Steward

[lateapex911]

Anthony


...we won't be inviting STx cars to run in the ProIT series....
.......fortunately this excludes the few non-IT cars in STU (primarily ex-WC cars).

Terry Hanushek
Pro IT Chief Steward

I took a liberty or two....

[dj10]

Hi guys,
I am new on the forums, however I will put my 2-cents in. I think this will be a disaster for ITS and ITR. Lots of these STU cars are very fast on the straight aways and slower around turns, this would hold up the ITS/ITR group. I believe it would lower enrollment in ITS/ITR and overall hurt the series

It's like that in all classes, you have your front runners, middle of the packers and the runners up.

[dj10]

Me. Don't you have any interest in trying something new? It's hard to take "a lot of people's" opinions on the matter since as far as I know other than ALMS drivers no one's raced it that way...

Throw in some spice once in a while, try something new.

Just sayin'.

GA

I agree with Mr. GA, something new is something good, like the pro course @ Mid O and the crashcar course @ the glen.

[lateapex911]

You haven't seen the chicanes at Lime Rock!
Hey, if i was a club member and drive there every week or two, sure, why not try the different configurations. But, these days, SCCA races for Regional cars are getting pretty scarce.
Not to mention, Lime Rock offers the highest costs for pretty precious amounts of track time.

So, to me, it's not worth the risk.