Frankenstein Swaps in the Long races?

[Conover]

Is there a class that would accept a Frankenstein car in one of the long enduros? Like the VIR 13 hour or the NJMP race. What I'm specifically thinking of is something like an e30 bmw with an engine from a different manufacturer that burns a different type of fuel. Could that be classed is something eligible for the 13 hour?

[mossaidis]

In theory it sounds like ITE.

[Andy Bettencourt]

In theory it sounds like ITE.

In theory. ITE rules in New England wouldn't technically allow it.

[Knestis]

We're at the mercy of regional rules. My guess is that NCR would probably be OK with pretty much anything running in the 13 hours as long as entries are down.

K

[Conover]

We're at the mercy of regional rules. My guess is that NCR would probably be OK with pretty much anything running in the 13 hours as long as entries are down.

K

Well, good. That is in keeping with the enduro tradition isn't it? Have you see the things they run around the 'ring with every year?

Anyone know of an E30 being unloaded? Maybe ex spec E30 or some such.

[GKR_17]

Careful now.

ITE rules are vary a lot by region. I'm not sure what the folks at NC region had in mind, but their rules appear more restrictive than most. They have also used the WDC region ITE rules for the 13-hour (this year they called those cars ITF). I don't believe an alternate fuel engine swap is currently allowed by either the NC or WDC regions. I don't see any reason they would not allow it if you ask, but I would strongly recommend running this by someone with authority before putting a lot of effort into the car. Don't just go by a tech inspector either, they would be a good resource for some issues, but have no authority over the rules if trouble comes up.

Diesel is allowed in certain cases, so I see no reason it would be banned in ITE/ITF. Anything more exotic is probably a non-starter.

[callard]

DC Region IT-E rules still require provenence from a Pro Series - no home brews.

[jjjanos]

My hunch is that if you contact the hosting Region early, a class for Frankenstein magically will appear.

[evanwebb]

Hey Chuck, the DC region rules now allow NASA Super Touring cars, and Super Touring allows basically anything you can think of to be done to the car , including almost any type of engine swap. I don't know about the alternative duel aspect though. I will be building a really cool DC region SPU / ITE car in the next year that will compete for overall wins in enduros, just y'all wait and see...

[GKR_17]

Hey Chuck, the DC region rules now allow NASA Super Touring cars, and Super Touring allows basically anything you can think of to be done to the car , including almost any type of engine swap. I don't know about the alternative duel aspect though. I will be building a really cool DC region SPU / ITE car in the next year that will compete for overall wins in enduros, just y'all wait and see...

That trick should work, but you'd need a NASA logbook and race history to make it legit.

[jjjanos]

That trick should work, but you'd need a NASA logbook and race history to make it legit.

I don't think so. You just need to meet their (NASA's) rules.

[evanwebb]

I don't think so. You just need to meet their (NASA's) rules.
Thanks that's my understanding, there is nothing in the ITE rules that say anything about bringing a logbook from some other sanctioning body.

[Gregg]

Except you should be ready for this:

It is the responsibility of the competitor to prove that the car is eligible and is in compliance with the rules as stated in the sanctioning body rule book.
DC Region has bounced cars for this before.

[evanwebb]

Except you should be ready for this:

DC Region has bounced cars for this before.

Hi Gregg, thats fine, I don't have the DC ITE rules in front of me but I'm assuming you are quoting from them. If I bring the NASA rulebook along and have the ITE rep (is it still Ed York?) and/or a tech inspector go over the car can I get some kind of certificate of compliance or equivalent? Always subject to protest of course but at least that would give all involved some confidence at the outset.

[callard]

What Greg said above is true. The DC Region IT-E rules were written to provide ex-Pro Series race cars a home when they were no longer legal through ageing out in their series. This required that the car have provenence (a Pro Series log book with races in which it had participated). Clones and home brews were not welcome in the DC Region's IT-E rules set. Other Regions didn't require provenence, only that the car was a clone of an actual Pro Series car. DC Region Tech required the Pro Series specifications for the car provided by the driver. A NASA class isn't considered a Pro-Series; think Grand-Am, Motorola Cup, IMSA, SCCA's own Pro Series, etc.

With that said, I'm sure it will/has changed. You pays your money and takes your chances.
Chuck

[evanwebb]

Hi Chuck, Yes originally the DC region ITE rules were rather restrictive but they were liberalized substantially about 3-4 years ago. Here's the whole DC Region ITE Rulebook:

WASHINGTON DC REGION SCCA
2010 Improved Touring Expanded (ITE)
CLASS RULES:

The purpose of the WDCR-ITE class is to allow cars from different organized series that competed on DOT tires
and a stock chassis to compete on a regional level. Cars that are eligible may not be equal to each other in a
completive nature. ITE will be participating in the Mid-Atlantic Road Racing Series Championship.
All vehicles must possess an SCCA vehicle logbook. Vehicles are specifically permitted to display contemporary
and current decals. Sanctioning body identifications, other than SCCA must be covered.
All competitors must conform to the SCCA GCR (General Competition Rules).
All competitors must have in their possession a sanctioning body rule book, (GCR, Pro Racing Regulations, IMSA,
Code/Competition Rules, etc.) and an official manufacture’s shop manual(s) to authenticate the vehicle and its
state/condition of preparation.
It will be the responsibility of the ITE representative and the Chief Scrutineer to monitor compliance with the rules.
Non compliance with the rules shall be reported to the Chief Steward. It is the responsibility of the competitor to
prove that the car is eligible and is in compliance with the rules as stated in the sanctioning body rule book.
All vehicles may be subjected to being weighed and/or a compliance check.
The WDCR-ITE class includes competition vehicles from:

�� Escort World Challenge

�� SCCA World Challenge

�� IMSA (Street stock classes)

�� Motorola Cup

�� Grand AM Cup

�� Honda-Michelin Challenge, Players Challenge

�� Firehawk Series

�� Corvette Challenge

�� SSA & SSGT (SCCA Showroom Stock)

�� SCCA Pro Solo Street Prepared Class

�� NASA Performance Touring A (PTA)

�� NASA Super Touring (ST)

�� NASA Honda Challenge (H1)

�� NASA American Iron Extreme (AIX)

�� BMWCCA HP

�� BMWCCA IP

�� BMWCCA JP
Other vehicles may be considered only after a formal request is made to either the WDCR Club Office or the ITE
Administrator. If approved, that class would be eligible for competition the following year.
The WDCR-ITE Class Administrator: Edward York at [email protected]

[BruceG]

Is there a class that would accept a Frankenstein car in one of the long enduros? Like the VIR 13 hour or the NJMP race. What I'm specifically thinking of is something like an e30 bmw with an engine from a different manufacturer that burns a different type of fuel. Could that be classed is something eligible for the 13 hour?

a SHERMAN MKIV should fit the bill. 50cal Brownings to pick off any pesky spec pinatas that try to pass and a 75MM long gun to eliminate the big stuff, such as vettes, GTA,etc...also still runs on pump gas so no alternative fuel rules to worry about....LOL:023:

[evanwebb]

The Sherman is a nice vintage choice, although it's going to have a tough time keeping up if a rich guy shows up with his M1-A2.

[BruceG]

The M1-A2 doesn't qualify under the GCR rule that doesn't allow turbines. Also wouldn't qualify for vintage enduro races.

[evanwebb]

Dang, tripped up again on the no-turbine-engine rule...

[callard]

Evan,
Looks like the comp board added the NASA and BMW cars to the original rules. Maybe I should have a few of the Porsche folks call Ed and as to be added - they have such pretty cars :D
Chuck

[evanwebb]

Hey Chuck, I think thats a great idea, or else just go to the NASA website and decide which class their car fits is best of the NASA classes already in ITE. Essentially any car you can think of from something you built from scratch or a Porsche 917 or 935, with any kind of (gasoline at least) engine powering any kind of chassis, etc. can run in NASA ST or SU.

[GKR_17]

...any kind of (gasoline at least) engine powering any kind of chassis, etc. can run in NASA ST or SU.

But, SU is not on the list for ITE.

[evanwebb]

But, SU is not on the list for ITE.

I think this would be arguable since SU is really just a class within the ST category, and is in the same set of rules published by NASA. In any case, the only difference is the adjusted weight/HP ratio, ST1 is for cars > 8.7 and SU is for cars < 8.7

[Gregg]

As one of those responsible for the modification to the ITE rules for 2009 specifically to allow cars from additional series, I can tell you with all certainty that SU was specifically excluded from the listing and would not be legal to run in ITE. Although NASA includes both categories in the same PDF file, it is very clear that their is a distinct difference in rulesets between ST-* and SU) and this was taken into account when deciding which classes to consider.

It should also be noted that although ST-* has an allowance for non-DOT tires, they are not legal for DC Region ITE.

And as for your comparison between ST-* and SU, I think you might be fudging a bit on what SU is:

Super Unlimited (SU) is an unrestricted class for any closed wheel/fendered vehicle that complies with the safety requirements in the NASA CCR.
Period.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the 2011 version of the rules (which will be out in January) will probably specifically list just ST-1 and ST-2 (but not STR-1 and STR-2).

[evanwebb]

Thanks Gregg, I think the rules could be a bit more clear then. But, as far as the philosophy is concerned, I'm not sure why you would want to restrict ITE unless you are intending that the tubeframe cars & non-DOT tires would fit in SPO, which would seem to make sense...

[Gregg]

Thanks Gregg, I think the rules could be a bit more clear then. But, as far as the philosophy is concerned, I'm not sure why you would want to restrict ITE unless you are intending that the tubeframe cars & non-DOT tires would fit in SPO, which would seem to make sense...
Correct you are.