surge tanks?

[StephenB]

Just a simple question :) are surge tanks legal in IT? (For the fuel system to help prevent starvation) If they are legal do the need to have any "rating" like a fuel cell? I read through the gcr but I couldn't figure it out.

Stephen

[Sandro]

Put a filter element in it, and call it a filter. Filters are free :rolleyes:

[CRallo]

Put a filter element in it, and call it a filter. Filters are free :rolleyes:

and fuel flows through it... plumbing is free right? :shrug:

[StephenB]

Well I guess those are good arguments but I am going to be in YOUR class and hopefully beating YOU. Are you still OK with that as a reason?

I was reading in the GCR that you can have multiple fuel cells but then I think it needs an SFI rating...

I am honestly going to have a fuel starvation problem and I could add baffles and an additional pump inside the stock tank like others, but is that actually legal? In the end I would rather have the surge tank for multiple reasons but I don't want to waist the money if I am going to be protested and kicked out. I could easily add a filter and call it a huge 2gal. filter I guess.

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

I was reading in the GCR that you can have multiple fuel cells but then I think it needs an SFI rating...
Sticky'd at the top, dood...

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23937

[StephenB]

I read through that link but it doesn't really discuss surge tanks and/or the legality of them. I do get the controversy of the wording on the FIA part...(not SFI, that was a slip of names by me) I guess my questions are if we can add surge tanks to a fuel cell system (I think a lot of people do?) And/or can you add a surge tank to a stock fuel system. In both cases does that "tank" have any specific safety requirements?

Thanks you for the link though. I was an idiot and only specifically did a search for "surge tank" but nothing came up.

Stephen

[MMiskoe]

If they are deemed to be wrong for the class there will be many cars out there rethinking their fuel delivery plan. Kind of like spherical bearings.

The only allowances I have seen that they fall under are filters, pumps & plumbing. Its either a filter housing, a mount for the pump or a fat spot in the supply pipe.

My thought is to drive the rule book as hard as you drive the car.

[JohnRW]

Technically, it IS a filter. It filters the air from the gasoline. Duh.

[Chip42]

you can put a surge tank into a stock tank or approved fuel cell. that's pretty clear to me. an external one is less so.

I'm also interested to see what people think as my ITB 1983 VW GTI has a surge can + added extrnal fuel pump which is the primary feed to the CIS. I got the car this way as payment for a motor build and haven't gotten it on track yet. it's not my primary concern, but i have thought about the legality of such a system. it's all enclosed in sheet metal but the surge can is pretty obvious as to what it is.

anyone want an 83 rabbit GTI with 1994-issued logbook? fresh trans!

[StephenB]

you can put a surge tank into a stock tank or approved fuel cell. that's pretty clear to me. an external one is less so.

I'm also interested to see what people think as my ITB 1983 VW GTI has a surge can + added extrnal fuel pump which is the primary feed to the CIS. I got the car this way as payment for a motor build and haven't gotten it on track yet. it's not my primary concern, but i have thought about the legality of such a system. it's all enclosed in sheet metal but the surge can is pretty obvious as to what it is.

anyone want an 83 rabbit GTI with 1994-issued logbook? fresh trans!

This is exactly what I want to do... possibly installed in the spare tire well. Need to plan that out a little more but after talking to a few people I know this is a possible solution I just feel it is a bit "grey" (but creative!)

Stephen

[Chip42]

spare well is where the one for my VW is.
http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=54&pictureid=412
there's a panel that fits over the seperated area. left side is tank, right side is pump, the braided line to the tank is fro mthe main tank pump, rubber line is return from the CIS. blue line feed the secondary pump to the CIS via the other braided line.

legal?

[EV]

spare well is where the one for my VW is.
http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=54&pictureid=412
there's a panel that fits over the seperated area. left side is tank, right side is pump, the braided line to the tank is fro mthe main tank pump, rubber line is return from the CIS. blue line feed the secondary pump to the CIS via the other braided line.

legal?What did you use for the surge tank?

[rsportvolvo]

My stock K-Jetronic fuel system has an inline accumulator. That is basically what a surge tank is. So I'm just replacing the stock accumulator with a fabricated accumulator.

[Chip42]

What did you use for the surge tank?

I don't know what it came from or if it was fab'ed for this purpose. It came with the car and I haven't done that much digging into the fuel system yet.

[rsportvolvo]

If the consensus is external swirl pots are a no-no then you can either purchase or fabricate/machine something like these ATL UK pieces:

http://www.atlltd.com/racecar/products.php?cat=62

[JohnRW]

What did you use for the surge tank?

I have seen them made out of everything from an old propane bottle ("free" is a price that everyone loves) to steel and aluminum coolant overflow tanks (brush up on your TIG welding skillz, kiddies !) and generic catch cans.

Roundy-round Summit is a good source for weird hardware like -http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CSI-931C/?rtype=10

You could even use one of the 1-gallon mini fuel cells. Put a de-aeration screen in it...it's a "filter" and falls under the "filters are free" rule - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RCI-2010A/

[Dano77]

The RCI thing/mini fuel cell is cool and pretty reasonably priced. Mount to the bulkhead,plumb low pressure lines in and out pull the high pressure pump from the bottom. Best of both worlds,gravity and pressure feed to high pressure pump.
We were doing this on the injected small blocks in the spo car a few years ago. works great. the surge tank/mini cell wont empty to fast and keeps a constant fuel pressure to the secondary pump even when the primary/low pressure pump gets air due to fuel slosh.

Dan 77 IT7

[JLawton]

So, I'm going to be the prick on this one. What's the spirit of the rule? (or lack there of) Sounds to me like there isn't anything that specifically allows it? Not matter what you call it..........

Then on the other hand I couldn't give two craps whether you have one or not and if you beat me it ain't cause of THAT!! :D

[lateapex911]

you can put a surge tank into a stock tank......

You can?? Where does it allow you to modify the stock tank in any way?

[Chip42]

You can?? Where does it allow you to modify the stock tank in any way?

nothing explicitly allows the modification of, or addition to, the stock tank. No explicit rule allows for the addition of a surge area into an approved cell, either, only the blanket phrase in 9.3.27 "at a minimum".

I made the leap (apparently wrongly) that the addition of a thing (surge can/tank/chamber) into the stock tank was legal from 9.1.3.1.b - it could be considered a filter (very coarse!), or as added protection to the lines. if the stock tank is not modified to accommodate this, I believe I am in the right as I could do the same (or much more) with an approved fuel cell by common understanding.

I fail to see how these little issues to accomplish something like the avoidance of fuel starvation on a car that has an IT-correct motor, uses legal fuel, and makes weight with legally placed ballast always raise such ire among a few. what's the competitive advantage / how is this at odds with the spirit of the rules?

what's more - I'll fully support a verdict of illegal on my VW's surge system. I think it's unsafe to have that much high pressure fuel plumbing in such proximity to the driver, even with the minimalist bulkhead as installed. the cars I prefer to play with, hondas and toyotas mostly, usually have "surge tanks" of a sort built into the stock fuel tanks anyhow. One need not protest any of the cars I support for mods such as this, should one be so inclined. they are all bone stock or use a cell.

[lateapex911]

Hey, I'm not throwing stones, I'm just add odds as to where it says you can modify a stock tank in any way. I know certain cars have issues with pickup, and starve, and must run 1/2 or 3/4 tanks to avoid that. Since gas has weight, carrying extra can certainly be a hindrance to acheiving minimum wieght, and many would see the extra weight as a competitive disadvantage.

If the tank has internal filters, and access, I suppose substituting a similar filter that has increased slosh resistance could be considered legal, by many.
But adding componentry in the tank that is non stock is verboten based on the IIDSYCYC foundational language in the ITCS/GCR. Now, you might find that dumb, but maybe the rules makers had reasons for it. Perhaps they felt that they didn't want folks mucking around with stock tanks, and that they preferred mods to be done within fuel cells, which are designed for such things from the outset. I don't know, I wasn't there when that rule was written. A letter to the ITAC requesting a rules allowance to add internal surge tanks to stock tanks would yield a response though, I bet.

[Chip42]

Jake, you're one of the reasons the category is what it is today - I respect you a lot. I know you're just looking after the rules.

I've got no real need other than the VW, and I want that to be someone else's problem ($2k takes it!). I'm not going to be writing anything on the subject to the CRB/ITAC (they get enough mail from me).

I just figure anything that doesn't create a safety issue and that is allowed in one legal configuration (added cell) should be allowed in the alternate configuration (stock tank) particularly if it allows a car to run at its minimum weight, especially when that is a difficulty due to fuel sloshing and a being "heavy" - in the end you're only talking about maybe 40#s of fuel so it's not that big of a problem. I get the part about not wanting to have modifications made to the stock tank, but as filters and pumps are already open, I just figure the addition or variation of things in that vein is no biggy.

[JLawton]

Again, I couldn't care less whether it's legal or not or whether you run one or not. But this is one of the things that people try to twist wording to suit their needs and justify it as being legal.

[seckerich]

Same people that will cry about this will tell you to build your intake heat shields as part of the "free" exhaust. Fuel pump is free and can have a surge tank attached to it under the same wording.Stock fuel pump is in most stock tanks. No big stretch. I just run a full tank so this is pure entertainment on why some go to STL/STU or will be going. :023:

[StephenB]

Thanks for the replies everyone! One thing to that is clear to me is that this is grey to some but I will make sure that I stay within the rules as I know interpret them.

I plan on racing in some 12 Hr. races and doing more endurance racing with friends so I can't just fill it and be all set and still be competitive.

Thanks for the interpretations and advice!
Stephen Blethen

[Lael Cleland]

I just orded the 1 gal filter from summit for my rabbit!

[lateapex911]

I probably shouldn't point out that Steve "just fill it" Eckeridge wins most races he enters, LOL.

Hey, I'm just reading the rules. I might not agree with them...but I try and abide by them. Or I write and try to get them to make sense. I know my old tank in my RX-7 would NOT pull down as far as I would have liked, but, that's the wart I chose.....so, my options were: Cell, or change the rule, use a large filter console with a return line, or just drive.

I chose "just drive". But the tank rusted from the inside, and the cell ended up being cheaper than a new stock tank.
I could have solved the issue though and been within the rules via filter consoles, etc.

MOST of the gripes I hear in the rules have solutions. Things like jacking points and so on. But some people either don't think creatively, or get a chip on their shoulder about how dumb the rules are. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but for me, they are a good compromise. Racings good, and there are workarounds to most issues, so, I'm cool with that. if I'm not, I'll write a letter, LOL.

But no matter what, EVERY ruleset will have it's dumb limitations, things that don't make sense, and EVERY ruleset will have areas where creativity is useful.

[seckerich]

Thats what I was hinting at Jake. There is a logical way to fix a simple problem that should be allowed in the rules. Warts and all with car design, but when it comes to allowed systems that are required to have a good running car that finishes a race, we need to let drivers fix the problems without twisting the rules. It is a real stretch to believe anyone wrote rules to allow a cell, filter, lines, etc and wanted us to race with a fuel starved car. Does that make sense to any logical person. Best I can read the fuel system is free from the fill neck to the stock injection/carb. Playing games with wording is stupid. Is it performing an illegal opperation to supply fuel to the motor? Answer is no, so it is not a tortured interpretation. :D

[markw]

Here is the solution. VW lists it as a fuel filter in ETKA. 533 201 511 A. If plumbed properly can handle the fuel demands under any load of a 200hp engine.
Regards,

http://www.rmeuropean.com/Images/products/large/533201511A_GEN_A58C52C.jpg

[StephenB]

I probably shouldn't point out that Steve "just fill it" Eckeridge wins most races he enters, LOL.


So I have heard! I have never met him but based on his posts he seems very intelligent and I highly respect his opinions. He also has the coolest name ever... Steve. Oh, and he is also building the same car as me :)

Stephen

PS: still in the thought process on several items and a local rally prep team had a cool solution which prompted this post. Someday when I save some money and I am further along I will have to call Steve!

[rsportvolvo]

Here's what Prodrive did on the WRC WRX.

http://clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=176467&highlight=open+house (scroll down @ halfway)

[EV]

Here is another solution... http://bcbroncos.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=27_51_108&products_id=119 and it IS a fuel filter

[Bob Roth]

FYI here is a internal trap for a fuel cell http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Surge-Tank-Collector-p-2818.html

[webhound]

Here is another solution... http://bcbroncos.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=27_51_108&products_id=119 and it IS a fuel filter

Sorry for the necrobump.

This thing intrigues me, but I'm too dumb to understand how it works. I have an 89 Civic, ITC/B car, it's got throttle body injection with an in tank pump (all stock) with a return style fpr, that ends up operating just like a return style rail injection setup.

Soooo, does the Bronco thing above function like a surge tank for me? Does one of the fittings, the one supposed to return the air, have to tee into the return from the fpr?

Some sort of surge tank will help this car for enduros immensely, it starves at less than 1/3 tank.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thats what I was hinting at Jake. There is a logical way to fix a simple problem that should be allowed in the rules. Warts and all with car design, but when it comes to allowed systems that are required to have a good running car that finishes a race, we need to let drivers fix the problems without twisting the rules. It is a real stretch to believe anyone wrote rules to allow a cell, filter, lines, etc and wanted us to race with a fuel starved car. Does that make sense to any logical person. Best I can read the fuel system is free from the fill neck to the stock injection/carb. Playing games with wording is stupid. Is it performing an illegal opperation to supply fuel to the motor? Answer is no, so it is not a tortured interpretation. :D

Agreed. Any fuel pump, fuel filter and fuel lines may be used.

[webhound]

Any fuel pump: would that indicate one could use a stock pump or otherwise in the stock tank, and a secondary pump, as well? Also, it does say pumps may not be within the driver/passenger compartment: in a hatch, could one put the pump in say, the spare tire well, and firewall that?

[Flyinglizard]

My tanks fit in the spare well .
Ugly but works. ;

http://gallery.oracool.net/v/album82/protech/Cheaps/Rocc+015.jpg.html

[webhound]

My tanks fit in the spare well .
Ugly but works. ;

http://gallery.oracool.net/v/album82/protech/Cheaps/Rocc+015.jpg.html

Mike, thanks, I've seen your setup. But, pretend I'm dumb (not a stretch, at all!), how does this work? Will it work with a one-pump, high pressure, in tank pump, return-style system? Will it keep the air outta my injectors, when I get below 1/3 tank?

Thanks!

Will

[chuck baader]

Will, probably not. The purpose of the surge/filter/tank is to keep fuel to the main pump at all times. For that reason, I use a Holley red (?) as a lift pump that goes to the top of the surge tank. Other connections as follows:

Lift pump to top.

Return line from motor to top.

Overflow to tank from top.

Bottom to main pressure pump.

[dhardison]

Will, I have the same issue and have tried tanks from each year EF, different pumps, etc. all with no luck. One thing I did want to try was running 3-4 of these Walbro fuel pickups I read about on the Sandbox. "Technically" they're 70 micron filters.

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/pickups.html

The one thing I don't know is if they'll fit through the fuel pump access hole. If they do then you could remove the factory filter/sock from the bottom of the pump, tee off of that, then use a couple 'Y's to branch one to each side/corner of the tank (factory baffling might be a problem).

Feel free to buy one of these and let me know if they fit the fuel pump access hole. :D

[Flyinglizard]

Chuck has it right. I use a "facet" (40106 Maybe) for the lift pump. One lift line to the LR, but floor, of the tank. If you use two pickup lines, you need two lift pumps. I get by with one and it gets "all" of the fuel.

[webhound]

Will, I have the same issue and have tried tanks from each year EF, different pumps, etc. all with no luck. One thing I did want to try was running 3-4 of these Walbro fuel pickups I read about on the Sandbox. "Technically" they're 70 micron filters.

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/pickups.html

The one thing I don't know is if they'll fit through the fuel pump access hole. If they do then you could remove the factory filter/sock from the bottom of the pump, tee off of that, then use a couple 'Y's to branch one to each side/corner of the tank (factory baffling might be a problem).

Feel free to buy one of these and let me know if they fit the fuel pump access hole. :D

Dan, thanks. Those look pretty cool. I think I'll have to drop the tank and take a look at what's there now. Doing something to let us draw more than 6 or 7 gallons would be a monster help in enduros. End of day, though, in sort of basic terms, an accumulator arrangement with hp pump after may be the better choice.


Chuck has it right. I use a "facet" (40106 Maybe) for the lift pump. One lift line to the LR, but floor, of the tank. If you use two pickup lines, you need two lift pumps. I get by with one and it gets "all" of the fuel.

As above, this may be the best of the cheaper options. I have to check with tech re where the pumps and accumulator can live. I may end up having limited choices with the hatch. A good spot for hp pump and small accumulator would be underhood where the stock fuel filter and evap canister is, but I guess heat could be an issue.

Will

[webhound]

Just in case I haven't flogged this horse sufficiently: is it legal to add a SECOND fuel pump? This would be to draw fuel from the large fuel filter I want to implement, and feed the "rail."

Will

[1stgen]

Is there a reason other than cost not to put a ATL fuel cell and slosh tank pickup in it? That's what I run in my scirocco and with a Aeromotive 500 gallon per hour pump.

[webhound]

Tom, is there ever a reason other than money to not get something that's more baller?

;)

Will

[mossaidis]

baller....

[1stgen]

Tom, is there ever a reason other than money to not get something that's more baller?

;)

Will

Except that after 20 years of doing crap like this I've learned a few things...like buy a good racing fuel cell with baffled pickup tank so my engine doesn't starve. Cell is 550 and the baffle tank is 150....but the performance and HUGE safety increase is worth the money.

[chuck baader]

Or you can go the cheap route and just use a Jazz cell and make your own surge tank for minimal cost.

[webhound]

Tom, do you have a pic of your cell install?

The marginal trick with my install is that it's a Civic hatch, so to firewall it from the passenger compartment will require a bit more work than like in your sedan, Chuck. Also, won't I be better off from a safety standpoint with the tank where it is, under/outside the car's floor and within its wheelbase, than with it back at the spare tirewell?

Edit to add: I realize this is a hot button topic here, sorry if it starts something...

[chuck baader]

Actually I made a 1" tube bumper around the bottom of the tank. Same setup I had when I was wrecked at Road Atlanta and backed into a Jersey barrier and moved it 10". Had to replace the can and the car but am still using the cell. Chuck

[webhound]

Actually I made a 1" tube bumper around the bottom of the tank. Same setup I had when I was wrecked at Road Atlanta and backed into a Jersey barrier and moved it 10". Had to replace the can and the car but am still using the cell. Chuck

Ok, thanks Chuck. That makes a lot of sense.

Will

[1stgen]

I'm just not a fan of SFI rated tanks...I spent the money on an FIA approved tank and bladder. I still think the FIA standard should be the one to standardize fuel cell use.

[Chip42]

in a civic you can put a cell in the stock location, though punching through the floor, and just build a "box" around the top. meets the letter of the rule. This is what we have in the TrackSpeed Civic FP car, with an ATL "Black Box" and it's good to very low fuel levels (~1gal)

you could also put the cell int he passenger area. Either way it's 100% inside the roll structure and the wheelbase and plenty safe, though I find the stock tank to be an easier solution if you can get a handle on the starvation. that was always a problem in the CRX we ran years ago. some of the options here look very good.

[chuck baader]

The cost difference for the Jazz vs. the others is about a factor of 5. From my (unfortunate) experience, both will work well when installed properly. CB

[adamjabaay]

I use a JAZ sfi cell In my lemons car, and its a great setup. Very very well made.