Cash Payouts?

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

Hi guys,

There are 2 other guys I'm friends with at school who race. One races asphalt ovals, and the other does drag racing. In both cases, at least the winners get a check, and the winnings decrease further down the pack. Both guys pay less for their entry fee than I do ($50 for the drag racer, $100 for the oval guy), The oval racer can make about $1,500. The drag racer made almost $30,000 last year just in winnings. Why dont we do this?

Pros:

1.More cars-obviously people might travel further if they think they can win some money. People may come out of their hiatus if they can make some money back from the weekend, and not loose $400 every race.

2.Better racing- Those traveling to the track for money will be the faster cars/drivers hoping to make some cash

3.More fans=more $$$- With the accumulation of the faster cars, there will be better racing which will attract fans

4. Regions make more $$$- With the drivers traveling more the drivers will not only stick to racing in their region, but maybe 2 or 3 regions. This will allow for better competition, more cars, and more money for the regions because of the surplus of racers.

5. Better regional championships- Instead of a regional championships for 3 or 4 sections of the North East, there could be one. Each driver could race in 2 or 3 regions fairly easily, and make the North East regional championship more competitive points wise by including races from VIR to New Hampshire.

The region could spread the entry fees fairly easily. Raise the entry maybe $20. Take half the entry fee from each class, and use that to pay-out the drivers. 1st place gets 50%, and then as each position decreases, the payout decreases 5% until 10th, with the region keeping the rest.

I'm sure this has been beat to death, but I had an offer to drive an asphalt oval car, and I can win money if I even place 16th. I really love road racing, but it is frustrating when pretty much every other form of racing is getting some reimbursement for their efforts, and I loose a lot of money every weekend, especially when I work my ass off every week at $8.00 an hour just to race my car.

Sorry for the length,
Steven

[JLawton]

I think the biggest challenge is #3. There are tons of NASCAR fans out there. The races are held on Friday and Saturday nights for a few hours. It's the fan base that pays the winning, not the entry fees.

Plus, it's the tracks that put on the races in circle track. With road racing the clubs rent from th tracks and pay a hefty, HEFTY fee for that. So it cuts out the middle man.

Have you checked out the Pro IT? You won't make $30K but at least a little towards tire money.

[joeg]

Red Mist--bad enough in club racing, but you haven't seen anything until you post a cash purse instead of trophies.

If you like fixing wrecks all the time more power to you.

If you are a hired driver--meaning all you do is arrive and drive at an oval and your compensation is what your finishing position pays--no problem. If you own the car, forget it. The meager winnings will not cover anything.

[Flyinglizard]

SCCA is anti spectators. Not gunna happen.
Go to one of your race venues, and stop at a gas station 5 miles from the track, ask anyone where the track is or what do they know about the track. You would be surprised at how little is known about the local Road course.
Now ask about the local oval track...

The road racing is not fan friendly and pretty boring. The fast guy starts in the front and drives away. 3 passes for the lead is a big deal.
Oval tracks are alot more fan friendly. The races are short, the fast guys start in the back and race the whole way through the pack. lots better entertainment, over in maybe ten or twenty minutes.
For a payout race you have to start the fast guys in the back, add reward weight to the ringer cars, etc..
MM

[StephF]

Cash payouts for our racing?
Oh God.......

Been there...


done that............

Don't need to do that again.....................

There aren't enough junked Hondas out there to be able to keep fixing our cars if you start waving cash in front of IT drivers....it's bad enough when there are spectators.
:wacko:

[gran racing]

Increase entry fees to pay the faster guys to become faster... Or give incentives to do even dumber things as others have mentioned. :(

If there are ways to get spectators, merchandising, and other ways to raise money then reduce everyone's entry fee - that I'm all for.

[rcc85]

Yeah, the oval track guys can win prize money, but they spend a lot to do it:(. My local dirt track pays about $1500 to win for a weekly show in the top two classes (Big Block Modified and Super Late Model). I think engines are still in the $25,000 range and rolling chassis are $15,000. I don't know what they spend a week on tires and crash damage but it adds up. Forget about making any money in the lower classes that pay $500 or less to win.

Back in '99, when I moved up out of karts, I looked at running a dirt car. I had raced karts on dirt ovals(and they had prize money) and road courses (they didn't). There were two dirt tracks within 30 minutes of my house and the nearest road course was 3 1/2 hours away, so the dirt car had some appeal. But even with sponsorship potential for the dirt car, the net cost was going to be high. Also, those dirt guys only get some hot laps, a 10-12 lap heat race and a 25 lap feature. That's not a lot of track time. And sometimes, the features don't start until midnight (if there have been a lot of cautions in the earlier races).

Most of the dirt racers I know, think the track owners are making money and the racers aren't. I still would like to run a dirt late model in a couple of races, I just don't want to own one.

Bob Clifton
#85 ITB Dodge Daytona

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

These are the responses that I expected. As much as I love the club, people, and the racing, I am slowly getting frustrated with the lack of marketing. It is not expensive to put adds in the newspaper of the local race coming up. Or have a "Fan Appreciation Night" where fans can win track t-shirts, ride a-longs in a racecar during lunch or something. Hyperfest drew ~ 10,000 people this summer. Why? Marketing. All Hypferfest is is a normal NASA weekend, with more boobs and drifting. If we could market maybe one or two races a year, and have a program which includes a season schedule, weekend schedule, getting involved section, and maybe a bio on a few drivers, people will be interested. After I finish my technical part of school, I am taking marketing classes, and I am hoping to increase marketing and awareness of the club.

Steven

P.S. Pro IT is not worth it, the top winner won 2,500 last year, I'm sure I would spend that just getting to the races.

[lateapex911]

Steven, here's the formula.
Rent Lime Rock for a weekend. $60,000.
Now, get yourself a sanctioning body to provide corner workers, stewards, timing and scoring equipment, radio equipment, fire bottles , computers and printers. Or provide that yourself.
Feed all those people.
You'll need insurance. The track won't let your group set a foot on it with out millions in coverage. And you need to be concerned with the drivers too. Roadracers seem to be a crowd that has lawyers as friends, and 'releases" mean little. Oddly oval trackers are much cooler with the safety aspects being more lax. You'll need some tow trucks and flatbeds, and the staff to man them. and an ambulance. Or two, if the track requires that. A pace car and driver. Don't forget the flags for every station. And announcers like to get paid. Some tracks include some of this, some do not.

So, you've laid out a bunch of cash. About 80K when it's added up. (ROUGHLY)

Now, you'll need to raise that money and make a little for your troubles.

You can:
Have a sponsor cover it.
Have Spectators cover it.
Have the drivers cover it.

You'll need some good skills to sell an advertiser on an untelevised event for $80K that plays to a select crowd. So, you'll buy ads in local papers to attract that crowd. Lets say you get 1,000 people. Pretty good crowd, for an event that's largely unknown to many, but, you'll be hard pressed to sell tix for more than oh, say $30, I'd say. So, you've got $30K....which is pretty good. But you're still $50K short. Oh, and you'll need more insurance if there's a crowd. And a staff to control them and park them. Even if you were to somehow sell sponsorship, for $20K, you still need to find $30K.

Driver entry fees might help. 30000/200 is $150.

So, while you aren't paying the drivers, you have reduced the cost to them. But, there's huge liability. You OWE something to the people who gave you money. And they'll want to feel like they got their moneys worth, which, let's face it, is tough for the non aficionado to do at a roadrace track. But the sponsor is the biggest concern. He wants to see his costs covered in profit, or its not a success, so somehow, the exposure, and the people at the event need to add up to $20K. Good luck with keeping HIM happy.

The point of all this is that unlike oval racing, which is much easier for spectators to enjoy, (simple to understand, obvious in its action, and it's all easily visible), roadracing takes a lot more to make it work financially. LOTS of better racers and road races have failed miserably, (financially that is) even though they were marketed, promoted, had stars, fast flashy cars, and were televised.

Look at any of the "Pro" series. How many guys that are drivers are REALLY getting paid? Remember Speed World Challenge? Pierre Kleinubing? The most successful guy year after year? he was making a living, but he didn't get paid by Real Time, according to my sources. ALL his money came from personal sponsorships he sold, and winnings. And he wasn't raking in hundreds of K, either. Those Grand Am ST and GS teams you see on SPEED? One driver is paying in nearly every single car. And I have to guess, because I haven't tried to buy a ride, but those rides range in the $10,000 and up range for a nearly decent ride. The other driver may be getting a day rate, and his travel and expenses taken care of. Or not, maybe he just gets to drive and keep some winnings. Most drivers like that, (lets think Joey Hand) supplement their income in ways like instructing for drivers schools, doing arrive and drive deals, (corporate work) and driver coaching. Take a look at the crowd at the recent Salt Lake City Grand Am ST and GS race.....big deal event, final race of the season, and spectators were few and far between....

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

I agree with everything you said Jake, I know that holding a road race is a large and expensive operation, and I have come to realize that oval racers, for some reason, are not to keen on the safety precautions the track takes. I know that very little drives get PAID in American Road racing, and I have looked into the cost for a Continental Tire ride. I guess road racing just doesn't have the appeal as oval, even though in my book, it really takes more skill and effort to build a competitive car, and drive balls to the wall for 20 laps with other cars, doing more than just turning left.

I have accepted that I wont get paid driving and I dont really care if I do or not, it's my passion and I will always enjoy it. I guess I was just hoping to get a different answer from somebody that I haven't heard yet on why we don't have winnings, but that didn't happen.

Why haven't I seen you at SP? I recognize your car from past seasons but haven't seen it this year.

Steven

[lateapex911]

Good memory! I was down at SP last labor day. Had fun and a pretty successful event. But, it's a long haul from CT. The main reason is that my motor ate an oil seal in June, and the boat with oil and apex seals just arrived from Japan a few days ago. I'm hoping to get the motor running soon.

[JLawton]

In the words of the great tGA:

The difference between NASCAR and SCCA is that in NASCAR the spectators know all the drivers names, in SCCA the drivers know all the spectators names!


I did a year of circle track. Made some money......... SPENT a LOT of money and was burned out after 3/4 of the season trying to make EVERY race. It was a constant flog. Plus those guys are more than willing to destroy their car or your car to win.

[joeg]

...with more boobs

That might work!

[gran racing]

I am slowly getting frustrated with the lack of marketing. It is not expensive to put adds in the newspaper of the local race coming up. Or have a "Fan Appreciation Night" where fans can win track t-shirts, ride a-longs in a racecar during lunch or something.

Marketing - yes, I'd agree that it's an area that needs to be improved upon. What it takes though is for people such as yourself to take an active role, willingness to devote time and energy all while knowing it's a tough uphill battle.

It's also important to know what type of product is wanted. I've been to hyperfest, and won't go back. Some of it was entertaining, much was not. People getting beat with a crow bar, multiple people going to the hospital, several items stolen from the paddock by fans, people being obnoxious and loud all during the night at camp sites, and a whole lot of other BS. My blood boils thinking about it. This was the first and only time I've written a track to complain.

I've also been to the same track during the Labor Day event where I left quite a bit of tools exposed in my paddock spot far away from where I was sleeping without concern. I felt comfortable with my wife and 2 year old son walking away from the camp site during the evening to go to the bathroom, not worried if some stupid idiot would do something to put them in harms way. This is what I want is why I already plan to be down there next year. Becareful of what you wish for.

That does NOT mean SCCA can't attract more fans and hopefully prospective participates. We do need to be careful how we go about this though and who our target market truly should be.

Don't give up Steven.

[StephF]

Steve - This is SCCA CLUB racing. It's been this way for 60 years. It's a stepping stone to SCCA PRO racing. (I'm not trying to come across as snotty, but there is a big difference between the two, both on a national level and a regional level)

Club racing is something fun for the weekend warrior to do. It's a great training ground for those who go on to other series. It's geared towards enthusiasts, and like all worthwhile things, it doesn't come easy or cheap.

While I commend you and anyone looking to help promote the club, please do not try to make it something it is not. It will never be a pro event. And to those who say SCCA is anti-spectator, actually SCCA is more likely to be anti insurance premiums.

Spectator insurance costs a bunch of money. Money on top of rental fees. Unless the racetrack wants to provide it and charge people to get in, the club really can't afford to provide it. Thus the track makes the call about promoting an event, and the bottom line there will be whatever is best for the track and the club can go hang.

Like rules creep, if we start trying to add prize money to the club end of it, you do realize what will happen don't you?

The faster teams will pour even more money into the cars, the rules gurus will pushpushpush to change the rules on the cars even further and before you know it, the average backyard racer won't be able to afford to do diddly squat in a race with the limited budget and prep they can do. You can at least race now with a chance to be competitive. Imagine how that changes when you are up against guys with pro built 20k motors?

Lack of marketing has been a thorn in a lot of people's sides for years. But really, National promotes the pro end of it. The club end is here just for the fun of it. That's not to say we can't promote on our own, or that you can't drum up sponsorship too. There's plenty of free avenues now like Youtube, facebook, twitter, etc where you can promote yourself and maybe end up offsetting the expenses. And if you want to come up with marketing ideas for your region, I am sure you will be welcomed with open arms.

[gran racing]

Steven, did you possibly attend the comp meeting held at this years labor day event? That was an interesting meeting.

One other factor related to hyperfest. NASA = for profit. SCCA = non-profit. Both have positives and negatives.

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

Steven, did you possibly attend the comp meeting held at this years labor day event? That was an interesting meeting.

One other factor related to hyperfest. NASA = for profit. SCCA = non-profit. Both have positives and negatives.

I was in Ohio for school during Labor Day, so I couldn't. I do talk with a few people who sit in/participate in the regions meetings, and I am aware of the financial situation of the club.

Although this is Club racing, and not for profit, what is wrong with attracting people, and maybe raising money? I already race against some of the best prepped IT cars in the country, it really wouldn't make too big of a difference if people started putting money into their cars. Once I get out of college, I'm going to build my car up as much as possible anyways.


Steven

[lateapex911]

.......
Like rules creep, if we start trying to add prize money to the club end of it, you do realize what will happen don't you?

The faster teams will pour even more money into the cars, the rules gurus will pushpushpush to change the rules on the cars even further and before you know it, the average backyard racer won't be able to afford to do diddly squat in a race with the limited budget and prep they can do. You can at least race now with a chance to be competitive. Imagine how that changes when you are up against guys with pro built 20k motors?........

Assuming the amount of money is enough to offset the increased costs, OR, the series has the visibility and attractiveness for other abstract reasons to become popular....

I think the best way for a series to have actual payouts is to tie it in as a support race for other pro events. Having a captive crowd helps sell sponsors, and entry fees can be used to create a winners pool. But the track (in this case, the promoter) isn't likely to kick in a dime to help the costs, as they have groups/organizations lined up at the door wanting to supply their class/cars as a 'support race'.....

[gran racing]

what is wrong with attracting people, and maybe raising money? I already race against some of the best prepped IT cars in the country, it really wouldn't make too big of a difference if people started putting money into their cars. Once I get out of college, I'm going to build my car up as much as possible anyways.

You're talking different things.

Nothing is wrong with attracting people and raising money. You just happened to mention attempting to use cash payouts to do this as the method.

[jumbojimbo]

As has been pointed out we don't own the tracks and we don't control the track side of the cost.

Let's say it costs 60,000 now to rent the track. Let's say you convince a sponsor to give you 20,000.

Take a guess what your track cost will be next year.

[jumbojimbo]

...snip...You OWE something to the people who gave you money. And they'll want to feel like they got their moneys worth, which, let's face it, is tough for the non aficionado to do at a roadrace track...snip....

Bingo. Let's admit it, most of us find our races boring if we aren't in the car, we certainly don't expect anyone else to pay to watch. But put 10 cars on a 1/4 mile oval where you can see everything and there is a 30% chance of a crash, giddyup. Road racing is a hard sell on a good day.

I grew up in a short track family, went to the races every week at Orange Show Speedway in SB CA. My dad drove a 57 chevy hobby stock in the late 60s and early 70's. He's still bitter about how much money he had to spend to even be remotely competetive. The reality is that if there is money to be made, somebody else is going to be willing to spend the money to win it.

Although on the other hand, my impression from attending only the annual school bus races is that in general the level of competition in mini-stocks is not that high and in many cases it is like taking candy from a baby if you have any skill or prep ability. so of those 10 cars on track, 3 are competetive, 5 are crash bait and 2 are filler. The problem is that even if you are one of the 3, you are still crash bait yourself.

[lateapex911]

...., my impression from attending only the annual school bus races is that in general the level of competition in mini-stocks is not that high and in many cases it is like taking candy from a baby if you have any skill or prep ability. so of those 10 cars on track, 3 are competetive, 5 are crash bait and 2 are filler. The problem is that even if you are one of the 3, you are still crash bait yourself.

a road racer friend does this for fun. It's been an uphill battle. Not unexpectedly, there have been hidden costs. or shall we say, "Costs not accounted for at the beginning, but obvious now". Then there is the 'stock" aspect. They aren't. But the rules say they are. Finding the amount of cheating that is cool is the trick. And yes, crashing and damage are regular and expected outcomes.

Each track is different, and I'm sure has different ...shall we say, "agreements". But in most cases, a green roadracer will find himself in deep water, I'd bet.

Always remember the inevitible outcome when Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear says, "how hoard could it be?"

[Russ Myers]

Famous oval track racer Richard Petty was the first racer to make 1million dollars in prize money. he accomplished this feat in 1969. When questioned about how he felt, he replied"Big deal, it cost us 3 million to do it."

Russ.

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

Yeah, I didn't really mean to split and start talking about just attracting people. I just wanted to know the logistics and the more in depth reason of why we don't do cash payouts besides just "we dont have money." This helped a lot.

Thanks guys!

Oh Dave, awesome job at Labor Day! to run with,beat Tristan, Beth, Volvos, the Plymouth Arrow (kinda funny to say they're fast) is really awesome. They're running mid-front ITA times!

Steven

[lateapex911]

They're running ITB times. ;) Dave, Tristian, etc are all top ARRC type programs. But, the ITA boys should step it up, LOL Oh, I've always thought a top drawer program on a Fire Arrow could be a top dog....on paper, it looks like it could really get the job done, esp at Road Atlanta. If anybody ever does such a program, the ITAC wil have an issue.

[Simon T.]

Going off of just basic personal views, I think it could be done in some regions.

For my region, Atlanta, Road Atlanta is a very well known track, most places locally to the track have track posters and what not, autographed items, etc.

Sure, it's not spectator heavy, but COULD be. I still believe club racing is some of the best racing to watch, Spec Miata should be on SPEED, even the top IT races are intense to watch.

As for hired drivers and crashes, isn't that racing? Make a separate style series with cash payouts and large advertising campaigns local to the track. Have a back to back to back type event so spectators don't get bored sitting around all day.

I'm just saying theoretically it COULD work, it just seems the majority wouldn't want it to.

[rcc85]

To be spectator friendly, you would need to:

Make it a one-day event (qualifying in the morning, racing after lunch)

Only have 1 class per race group (multi-class racing is confusing to most fans)

Have at least 20 cars per race (none of this 1 & 2 cars in a class stuff)

Make the races no more than 30 minutes long (that way they won't get too boring even if it's a run away)

Run 6 race groups (3 1/2 hours or so for all of the races)

Charge $25-$30 with paddock access so people can see the cars up close (people like that!!)

Run shuttles from corner to corner or grandstand to grandstand so fans can see the whole track easily.

Now on to peace in the Middle East:)

Bob Clifton
#85 ITB Dodge Daytona

[rcc85]

To be spectator friendly, you would need to:

Make it a one-day event (qualifying in the morning, racing after lunch)

Only have 1 class per race group (multi-class racing is confusing to most fans)

Have at least 20 cars per race (none of this 1 & 2 cars in a class stuff)

Make the races no more than 30 minutes long (that way they won't get too boring even if it's a run away)

Run 6 race groups (3 1/2 hours or so for all of the races)

Charge $25-$30 with paddock access so people can see the cars up close (people like that!!)

Run shuttles from corner to corner or grandstand to grandstand so fans can see the whole track easily.

Now on to peace in the Middle East:)

Bob Clifton
#85 ITB Dodge Daytona

[gran racing]

Steven and others reading this - do NOT take this as a you can't help, ideas aren't welcomed type of message. Our club absolutely needs people like you who want to find new ways, explore ideas that have been discussed in the past (things and times change!), and there's certainly room for you to help.

Another "fear" of paying the guys who win: The faster guys will keep getting faster and faster. Some, myself included, fear that the entry level program bar will also be raised. When I first started racing the same car I'm using now in ITA, totally undeveloped, using junk spec racer Ford tires purchased for $25 each (them were the days!), I somehow still didn't finish last and felt remotely okay being out on track. Now the entry level gets raised to the point where it takes a $8K car to get out on track? Shoot. I wouldn't be here or at least my entry would have been delayed even further.

A reduction in entry fees is fantastic. Getting more people involved from racers to volunteers, great! Spread the word about our club!! Seriously, don't let others push you away. (Btw, speak with Martin Burke in the WDR about getting spectators - awesome guy.) If that doesn't work, try something else. I seriously do applaud you for your efforts and courage in posting your ideas. Keep it up. See you next Labor Day at Summit?

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

Steven and others reading this - do NOT take this as a you can't help, ideas aren't welcomed type of message. Our club absolutely needs people like you who want to find new ways, explore ideas that have been discussed in the past (things and times change!), and there's certainly room for you to help.

Another "fear" of paying the guys who win: The faster guys will keep getting faster and faster. Some, myself included, fear that the entry level program bar will also be raised. When I first started racing the same car I'm using now in ITA, totally undeveloped, using junk spec racer Ford tires purchased for $25 each (them were the days!), I somehow still didn't finish last and felt remotely okay being out on track. Now the entry level gets raised to the point where it takes a $8K car to get out on track? Shoot. I wouldn't be here or at least my entry would have been delayed even further.

A reduction in entry fees is fantastic. Getting more people involved from racers to volunteers, great! Spread the word about our club!! Seriously, don't let others push you away. (Btw, speak with Martin Burke in the WDR about getting spectators - awesome guy.) If that doesn't work, try something else. I seriously do applaud you for your efforts and courage in posting your ideas. Keep it up. See you next Labor Day at Summit?


Thanks Dave, I'll see Martin at the PDX this weekend. and I'll see what he has to say. It seems like most people in the Club are stuck in the mindset of what the club used to be. I seriously do think the club needs fans, rules changes, more car acceptance, and rules adjustments or the Club will soon be old news in a decade or two. I'll probably be at the next Labor Day race, hopefully racing with a better car than I have now. I missed this one just because I was still getting settled in at school.

Steven

[Simon T.]

To be spectator friendly, you would need to:

Make it a one-day event (qualifying in the morning, racing after lunch)

Only have 1 class per race group (multi-class racing is confusing to most fans)

Have at least 20 cars per race (none of this 1 & 2 cars in a class stuff)

Make the races no more than 30 minutes long (that way they won't get too boring even if it's a run away)

Run 6 race groups (3 1/2 hours or so for all of the races)

Charge $25-$30 with paddock access so people can see the cars up close (people like that!!)

Run shuttles from corner to corner or grandstand to grandstand so fans can see the whole track easily.

Now on to peace in the Middle East:)

Bob Clifton
#85 ITB Dodge Daytona

I don't see a major problem with any of that really.

It already costs $25 or so to spectate a regional at Road Atlanta. lol

[spawpoet]

Related to this discussion, what is the reason/difference we have spectator and non-spectator events in SCCA? I'd assume insurance purposes, but I'm just curious. I know down here non-spectator events are pretty much the norm, and it can be a bit of a hassle to invite the whole family out, when we are only allowed 3 crew members for a weekend.

[rsportvolvo]

TV kills attendance to events, regardless of the type of event. Even more so now with HD TV and excellent sound. Most folks can sit in the comfort of their living room and get a better view. With that in mind what's the incentive for folks to get out of the house and actually watch something in person?

[mtownneon]

Related to this discussion, what is the reason/difference we have spectator and non-spectator events in SCCA? I'd assume insurance purposes, but I'm just curious. I know down here non-spectator events are pretty much the norm, and it can be a bit of a hassle to invite the whole family out, when we are only allowed 3 crew members for a weekend.

There is none any longer. The reasoning used to be SCCA's old insurance carrier used to have a surcharge for spectator events but the current carrier has no such provision, all Club Races are considered "spectator events".

[gran racing]

Attendance for some of the Pro events at Lime Rock have seen the greatest number of people coming the past couple of years since quite a while ago. Not so sure I agree with that blanket statement.

[Simon T.]

TV kills attendance to events, regardless of the type of event. Even more so now with HD TV and excellent sound. Most folks can sit in the comfort of their living room and get a better view. With that in mind what's the incentive for folks to get out of the house and actually watch something in person?

This is 100% NOT true in any way.

Come to Petit this year and see what TV does for attendance. lol If anything, it makes it even more popular to GO to when an event comes close to you.

[StephF]

Related to this discussion, what is the reason/difference we have spectator and non-spectator events in SCCA? I'd assume insurance purposes, but I'm just curious. I know down here non-spectator events are pretty much the norm, and it can be a bit of a hassle to invite the whole family out, when we are only allowed 3 crew members for a weekend.

I worked for Lime Rock park for a number of years. In CT, you had to have an additional insurance policy to cover spectators. I don't remember how much it was, but I do recall it was pricey.
And, you then had to put gate guards in place as well. You have to limit access at an event because the spectators aren't covered under club insurance.
A typical event payroll for a 4 day event (majors) was usually around $100,000 or so. For a one day regional, it was still probably in the 20's easily enough. Especially if you had camping going on.
So in order to have spectators, on top of the track rental fees, you would have to allow probably another $30,000.
In the 90's, we charged 12/head at a regional race. We maybe got as many as 1500 folks in, more when we did the boy scout weekend. So that was what, $18,000 IF they all were paid admissions (which they never were, there's always comps in there).

Long story short, it's the age old problem. Not well known enough to be enough of a draw on it's own, which means not enough spectators, not enough gate fees, all of it leading to more expense. So unless the track decides to open it up to spectators, we are left with crew sign in spots. And even in a track does allow them in (like NHMS) it's expensive ($25/per)
Best bet is to troll for open crew spots when inviting the family out, or even better, have some of them sign in to work too. :023: