Diesel in IT

[Conover]

I've been wondering lately if there is anyway to fit a diesel car into an IT class. I'm not talking about, "Yeah sure, we'll create ITDiesel." I'd want them to somehow slot into the existing classes. The problem here is that any diesel that anyone would want to race would probably have a turbo bolted onto the exhaust manifold. But would maybe still fit into some IT slot in terms of performance. One way to regulate that may be to require stock mapping of the ECU, stock injectors, stock turbo, etc. Basically a No-Prep engine package. Really, there is not much to a diesel car, you got fuel, compression, and air, that's about it. Should be relatively straight forward to regulate, in my opinion anyway.

I know, I know, the first thing most people are going to say is that they don't want to race around cars blowing all that soot. And to people with that opinion, I'll just say, your not paying attention.

I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on this? Why can't that work? Why will it work? or whatever

Thanks.

[mossaidis]

I can't see why we can't make it work, though policing "stock" ECU rule is an interesting challenge for, it seems, regional-only class.

PS. Do you run non-stock injectors on your IT car?

[quadzjr]

There is no allowance for turbo-ed cars let alone turboed diesels. How woudl you apply a torque adder to this? I think then we may woudl want to adopt what others have said that pro racing serios have used (hp+tq)/2 for porcess power.

[JoshS]

I think these come in when turbos come in. I don't know when that will be but I think there are lots of forced induction cars waiting for an opportunity in IT. The turbodiesels are only a small fraction of those waiting in line ...

If anyone wants to educate me on turbo inlet restrictors, as done now in the STU class, their efficacy in terms of making power output predictable, and their side effects, please do! Because as of now I'm thinking that's the way to get them in.

Thoughts about supercharged cars welcome too.

[mossaidis]

Would we allow the same overbore, head porting and shaving allowances as you do on non-turbo IT cars? Then I ask, would the turbo have an greater power increase over non-turbo IT cars given that there will be an equal bump in CR?

[Ron Earp]

Class them with hp.

Not all diesels had turbos.....

Make them run a restrictor and electronic blow off valve that cannot be tampered with. X psi and it vents.

Quite naturally though, it'll just be easier to put up road blocks and say "but you can....." and use that as justification to not class them.

Ron "Currently looking for a GM B Body Diesel" Earp. Too bad those didn't come with manuals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlFQW5eMOew

[rsportvolvo]

The FIA used a displacement multiplier for turbocharged cars in the '80's and early '90's. It was 1.5 until 1985-85 and then 1.7 after that. Then they regulated the boost with sealed wastegates. How does the WRC regulate boost?

[Andy Bettencourt]

IT is years away from 'needing' to deal with this mess. It would need a whole 'nother set of rules. You can't have open ECU's, you can't have open exhausts...the power gains would be HUGE. getting a restrictor 'right' would be a nightmare.

[shwah]

They also use turbo inlet restrictors in the T classes.

No one in IT is using non-stock injectors legally.

[Ron Earp]

IT is years away from 'needing' to deal with this mess. It would need a whole 'nother set of rules. You can't have open ECU's, you can't have open exhausts...the power gains would be HUGE. getting a restrictor 'right' would be a nightmare.

Integrating them IT is a problem, I do agree.

But making a "ITF", Improved Touring Forced Induction would be a good place to learn the ropes of boosted cars in IT.

R

[ShelbyRacer]

IT is years away from 'needing' to deal with this mess. It would need a whole 'nother set of rules. You can't have open ECU's, you can't have open exhausts...the power gains would be HUGE. getting a restrictor 'right' would be a nightmare.

I disagree with it being years away. I've always felt that we need to get some turbo cars classified, even if it's just the mid-late 80s stuff for now.

Pop-off valves set at "stock" boost might be an answer, but I think the SIR thing is the way to go. Sure, it will be a LOT of work to get them right *in the beginning*, but it would be no better or worse than the current under/overdog situations.

You can have open ECUs and exhausts. That stuff would be too easy to circumvent. An SIR? There's no real way of getting around that (pun sorta intended). Potential power gains may seem huge, until you choke them back to a reasonable level.

I'm not saying it's simple, but I do believe it can be done. Many of those cars would probably fall in the ITR envelope, and could help reinforce numbers in that class...

[Andy Bettencourt]

I guess you really need to see if a driver really wants to build a turbo car just so it can be restricted. Doubt it.

What turbo cars from the 80's are people itching to race? Not a heck of a lot.

[Greg Amy]

What turbo cars from the 80's are people itching to race? Not a heck of a lot.
Huh, good point. Can't imagine what kind of high-volume, inexpensive, easily-available turbo car from the 80's a guy with a moniker of "ShelbyRacer" could be interested in running...

:happy204:

[joeg]

Diesel Escort?

[mossaidis]

big FYI, if we ever think about rule authoring in this area: stock max boost <> stock boost curve

('<>' means 'not equal to' for you non-SQL heads)

Stock means as it came from the factory.

imagine running max 'stock' boost throughout the entire RPM range, which isn't the case for factory turbo cars (i.e. boost levels are not level, but curved)... that would be like triple the torque of my honda lugnuts.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Huh, good point. Can't imagine what kind of high-volume, inexpensive, easily-available turbo car from the 80's a guy with a moniker of "ShelbyRacer" could be interested in running...

:happy204:

I said 'itching to race'. LOL.

[Conover]

The only reason I mentioned injectors is because that is one of the first things people do with diesels is to upgrade the injectors.

Rally America uses turbo inlet restrictors in their WRX's. There is definitely some knowledge base out there that could be tapped.

So, what if you start with 1.8L Naturally aspirated diesel golf in ITC? It'll probably suck, but then you get some idea of how to process the diesel engine.

no one would raise the compression ratio in a diesel, the VW's are already 23:1 CR, Compression ignition, right?

If you look around you every day, you'll see that diesel cars are becoming more and more a part of our landscape, everyday I see more and more during my hour commute. Everywhere I go in my little diesel commuter people spring up out of the wood work who are also driving them and enjoying them.

Diesels are bringing home overall wins in some of the most prominent and challenging sports car races in the world.

Saying "Oh this is too much work, no one wants to do it, it's too much shit to deal with, fuck that." Is pretty much what I expected, but again, your not paying attention.

If anyone is interested in brain storming with me on this, feel free to contact me. I've been thinking about how neat it would be to have a diesel IT car for a couple of years now. I know, I'm a weirdo, a pain in the ass, and all that. But, I'm really not trying to start a bunch of crap. I'm just thinking about what the future of the sport might look like, and I'm hearing the clacking of an oil burner. . .:shrug:

[Conover]

So, Ron, please avoid those early 350 based GM diesels. I mean, unless you are a glutton for punishment, oh yeah, what am I thinking. . .

So, the basic allowances for a diesel in IT assuming it is a turbo.

Open exhaust south of the turbo outlet
Open intake north of the turbo inlet
That's it, no other allowance for a Turbo diesel engine. Everything else stock, even the ECU. All other IT prep and safety rules apply.

Maybe I'll do some dyno tests with my TDI and see what it takes to get to the 20% increase. One Day . . .

[Flyinglizard]

Europe races these and gets big power. Yes, you can mill the head on a VW, mess with the injector timing, cam timing, camshaft, exhaust. Cold air intake, big as exhaust.
Blow off valves work better than SIR for boosted cars. Both could be the right way. IMHO. MM

[Conover]

Here's an idea.

Leave the rules basically the same, open ECU and etc. figure out what kind of power you'd end up with, then class it. 1.9L TDI in ITS? could be kinda fun. .

[JoshS]

So, the basic allowances for a diesel in IT assuming it is a turbo.

Open exhaust south of the turbo outlet
Open intake north of the turbo inlet
That's it, no other allowance for a Turbo diesel engine. Everything else stock, even the ECU. All other IT prep and safety rules apply.

Here's what I think:

1) Same allowances as non-turbos. If stock ECUs cannot be policied on normally aspirated cars, then they can't be policied on turbos.

2) You can't legislate max boost, as it is an effect of some things, not a modified part. It cannot be measured.

3) Use a TIR to make the horsepower output predictable. Making a big assumption there, I have a lot to learn.

4) Assign weights based on that predictable horsepower and our class' power-to-weight ratio targets, same as any other car.

5) Turbo diesels would be allowed too. They would probably get a torque adder like any other high torque motor. Diesel non-turbos could be classed right now, except that I'm not aware of any that are worth classing.

[shwah]

Here's an idea.

Leave the rules basically the same, open ECU and etc. figure out what kind of power you'd end up with, then class it. 1.9L TDI in ITS? could be kinda fun. .

Interesting angle. I like it. Process the cars as the current rules sit, with much bigger process power gain. The only issue is that some gasser turbos will be left without a class, or at obscene weights.

[lateapex911]

Cameron, if I were on the ITAC, I'd be discussing this with an open mind. Rotaries have their own ruleset, so the precedent is there to have unique rules based on engine genre.

The Jetta TDI Cup cars are pretty close to IT rules setupwise, and I'm pretty sure they are running faster than ITS times. I always wondered what they'd sound like with an open exhaust.

[StephenB]

.

The Jetta TDI Cup cars are pretty close to IT rules setupwise, and I'm pretty sure they are running faster than ITS times. I always wondered what they'd sound like with an open exhaust.

Just to be a smartass since its a hot topic as of late... TDI cars use ABS. And they have massive Audi TT brakes. That's about all I know about them. I think an IT racer here races one that could fill us in more.

And ya I bet they would sound cool!

Stephen

[JeffYoung]

THey were slightly quicker (1-2 seconds, but not under the old ITS track record by an unrestricted 325) than us I think.

My understanding was the cars had good brakes, so-so tires and ok suspensino.

Any power upgrades to the 140 hp. mill? It has a lot of torque but down on peak power obviously.....

I'd be in favor of N/A diesels in IT now, and I do think we have to figure out some way to deal with forced induction at some point.

[lateapex911]

I THINK the Cup cars use a "Euro tune" or some such mumbo jumbo. They hem and haw a bit when you ask them, but it's not a US stock power curve.

The suspension has been lowered and the dampers are custom and roll stiffness has been increased, all rather IT-ish. I still think they are underdamped, but that's just to my eye.

[Marcus Miller]

Weren't they also running on some type ultra hard slick?

[Bill Miller]

Cameron, if I were on the ITAC, I'd be discussing this with an open mind. Rotaries have their own ruleset, so the precedent is there to have unique rules based on engine genre.

The Jetta TDI Cup cars are pretty close to IT rules setupwise, and I'm pretty sure they are running faster than ITS times. I always wondered what they'd sound like with an open exhaust.

Jake,

I think the point about the rotary engines is a valid one. Playing devil's advocate on it though, you can say that you were really only dealing w/ 1 motor (3 variations), so it was a lot easier to draw a box around. Introducing diesels and turbo diesels would have multiple engines from multiple marques, across a broad range of technology (think 80's Audi or Mercedes turbo diesel vs. a modern VW TDI).

I personally like the idea. Could definitely play the green angle if you run bio-diesel. Wow, think about that one, you have a few bio-diesel powered cars running, and the entire paddock would smell like a bag of french fries! :D

On a side note, didn't the Jetta TDI cup cars get classified in T3 or something?

Back to Jake's point, I think you can use the rotary precedent to put greater restrictions on a car just because it has a diesel power plant (or a turbo).

[Greg Amy]

...didn't the Jetta TDI cup cars get classified in T3 or something?
STL, proposed.

[Ralf]

2009 Jetta TDI in SSC. And to confuse the subject even more, they list two gear sets which leaves me to to believe that the second set is for the automatic transmission. So when this car becomes eligible for IT, what about no turbos or automatics allowed in IT?

[Bill Miller]

STL, proposed.

Thanks Greg, I knew I read something about the TDI cup cars being classed in one of the Club Racing classes, I just couldn't remember the details and was too lazy to look it up.

[Conover]

2009 Jetta TDI in SSC. And to confuse the subject even more, they list two gear sets which leaves me to to believe that the second set is for the automatic transmission. So when this car becomes eligible for IT, what about no turbos or automatics allowed in IT?

Sounds like we could be running into this issue sooner than we might think.

Some good suggestions here. I like the idea of a TDi in ITS. I'm not sure that grouping all forced induction cars together makes sense in terms of rules, I think diesel might be enough different that it needs some specific consideration. I do hope that fuels are open for diesel.

[Rud]

2009 Jetta TDI in SSC. And to confuse the subject even more, they list two gear sets which leaves me to to believe that the second set is for the automatic transmission. So when this car becomes eligible for IT, what about no turbos or automatics allowed in IT?

Manual and DSG tranny. The DSG has an automatic mode, but its not a torque-converter "slushbox" automatic.

Is the IT ban on automatics philosophical ("real drivers drive the car") or practical ("too easy to cheat up an automatic" (shift kit))?

[Z3_GoCar]

Manual and DSG tranny. The DSG has an automatic mode, but its not a torque-converter "slushbox" automatic.

Is the IT ban on automatics philosophical ("real drivers drive the car") or practical ("too easy to cheat up an automatic" (shift kit))?

Gee I don't know anyone that can shift a trasmission in milliseconds....

[Greg Amy]

Gee I don't know anyone that can shift a trasmission in milliseconds....
I can...!!!

...but in a lot more milliseconds than a DSG can.

Hey, you started it... ;)

[Z3_GoCar]

I can...!!!

...but in a lot more milliseconds than a DSG can.

Hey, you started it... ;)

If you can do it in less than 10 ms then I'm impressed. If you can do it with loosey goosey rubber motor and transmission mounts then you sir are a machine :smilie_pokal:

Conover,

If you really want to race a TDi, why don't you start a spec-TDi class? Then you wouldn't have to worry about being over weight untill the power levels figured out, you could even spec a single coilover package and get a better deal on them.

[Marcus Miller]

How about doing what SM did? Unless my memory is off (it could be), they ran the SM package on some cars in IT, until they gathered support / data.
Could you build an ITE TDi and run it, gathering data on speed, power, etc... (Granted, that would only be one sample amongst the numerous (?) makes/ models of oil-burners that could be classifieds...

[shwah]

Based on watching the races, the TDi Cup cars will get faster with better shock engineering and better tires for sure.

Not sure how the enforcement would work out, but IMO classing them in the right IT bucket, with the only allowed changes from the current spec being tires, brake pads, spring rates, shocks and anti-roll bars sounds reasonable.

Who cares if they are already headed for STU or STL, lots of cars can race in more than one category.

[Rud]

Gee I don't know anyone that can shift a trasmission in milliseconds....

That's certainly one reason to ban DSG, but that doesn't answer my question about why automatics were originally banned. :)

[GKR_17]

That's certainly one reason to ban DSG, but that doesn't answer my question about why automatics were originally banned. :)

Can't say why automatics are banned, but per the GCR, DSG is not an automatic - so it would be legal now if any listed car had it available.

[Greg Amy]

That's certainly one reason to ban DSG, but that doesn't answer my question about why automatics were originally banned. :)
I've been around in IT since its beginning - and maybe Kirk can offer some further insight - but keep in mind both the mindset of "sporty car" Club Racing in 1984 as well as the technology of 60's, 70's, ad 80's automatic transmissions, and I think it's easy to understand why.

After all, how many of you would ever dream of considering an automatic transmission prior to the days of 6-speeds (now 7-speeds!), DSG/SMG, and electronic control...? Even now, despite the advanced technology, I'm guessing you still prefer the good ole stick.

GA

[Knestis]

I actually present when they wrote the national IT rules set but the prevailing sentiment around the category then was exactly as Greg describes - and not at all UNLIKE what we hear any time someone suggests that ABS be allowed in IT. "Driver aids" are evil. Sports cars are, well, sports cars. But then again, nobody would have wanted to race a Datsun 510 with an auto.

Station wagons weren't allowed - again, based on conversation in our neck of the woods - because of the perception that some of them came with "super-duty" parts. But some folks had a philosophical issues with the "look" of the category. It seems silly now but in the early '80s some SCCA people didn't like the Rabbit because it didn't fit their preconceptions re: what a sports car should be.

K

EDIT - Interesting that the original IT category rules predate the later policy decision by the Club to get away from turbo cars more generally. They were dominant in a number of SS classes in the '80s but fell out of favor with the rules-makers after we began to accept that we didn't have the "technology" (i.e., intestinal fortitude?) to bust cheaters. They're back in other restricted club racing classes so there's frankly little excuse for not considering them in IT.

[JoshS]

The only car listed in IT that came with an available "clutchless manual" transmission is the MR2 Spyder that was just recently added. Toyota calls it "SMT". It has only a single clutch, not the dual-clutch of the more modern variants, but it's still basically the same thing (a manual transmission with an electro-hydraulic shifter/clutch mechanism). The Toyota version is unique in that it doesn't even have an "automatic" mode.

When that car was classed, the ITAC discussed this transmission, and the technology in general, in depth. I think in the future when more cars have these available we'll probably be discussing it more. But I'll say this -- it is not banned in the MR2 Spyder, and probably won't be banned for the next listed car that has one available either.

[Chip42]

that was a scab to try and sell more of the things to girls. it's unique among that "technology" in that it 1: "bolts on" to the existing 5-spd manual, and 2: is a hinderance - shifts (particularly UPshifts) are slower than most of us would do on the street with an H-pattern. Car and Driver had it 1.4s slower to 60mph than the standard manual. certainly makes threshold braking/shifting easier, but I think the fast guys would loose time with this system.

it's likely computer work could improve the speed, but being based on the 5spd H-pattern gearbox means that the effects on lap times are likely to be minimal. I admit that it can be a driver aid if tuned well, but postulate that it's not significant enough to be worth worrying about. there was a guy in the DC region in a CF who lost his right arm and had a similar system approved for use in his car back in the 90s. can't remember his name, but it didn't seem to make him any better or worse (though one arm might have balanced the possitive effects a bit).

DSGs, ferrari-style "flappy paddle gearboxes" and the like are another breed entirely - they are NOT just a computer shifting an otherwise traditional manual. they are coming, I don't see how we can avoid that (do we want to?) but their inherant ability to spend more time engaged should merit consideration for a weight adder but nothing more.


The only car listed in IT that came with an available "clutchless manual" transmission is the MR2 Spyder that was just recently added. Toyota calls it "SMT". It has only a single clutch, not the dual-clutch of the more modern variants, but it's still basically the same thing (a manual transmission with an electro-hydraulic shifter/clutch mechanism). The Toyota version is unique in that it doesn't even have an "automatic" mode.

When that car was classed, the ITAC discussed this transmission, and the technology in general, in depth. I think in the future when more cars have these available we'll probably be discussing it more. But I'll say this -- it is not banned in the MR2 Spyder, and probably won't be banned for the next listed car that has one available either.

[Rud]

After all, how many of you would ever dream of considering an automatic transmission prior to the days of 6-speeds (now 7-speeds!), DSG/SMG, and electronic control...?


True enough. :) Thanks!

[GKR_17]

The only car listed in IT that came with an available "clutchless manual" transmission is the MR2 Spyder that was just recently added. Toyota calls it "SMT". It has only a single clutch, not the dual-clutch of the more modern variants, but it's still basically the same thing (a manual transmission with an electro-hydraulic shifter/clutch mechanism). The Toyota version is unique in that it doesn't even have an "automatic" mode.

When that car was classed, the ITAC discussed this transmission, and the technology in general, in depth. I think in the future when more cars have these available we'll probably be discussing it more. But I'll say this -- it is not banned in the MR2 Spyder, and probably won't be banned for the next listed car that has one available either.

Try again. The BMW Z4 as currently listed in ITR had the SMG tranny optional. Same goes for the E46 if the 2003 year gets added.

[JoshS]

Try again. The BMW Z4 as currently listed in ITR had the SMG tranny optional. Same goes for the E46 if the 2003 year gets added.

Yes, you are right. When I said that I was thinking that it was only available with the 3.0 but it was also available with the 2.5.

[callard]

The Porsche 911 model had a clutchless manual in the late '60s.

[Knestis]

The "Sportmatic!" VW had a similar system, I think. I think our Type III squareback had one.

K

[Greg Amy]

The "Sportmatic!" VW had a similar system, I think. I think our Type III squareback had one...
...and it was horrid. It was a regular standard transmission and clutch, but with a torque converter, too. It used sensors to detect when the stickshift had any force placed on it; when that happened it used a vacuum solenoid to disengage the stock clutch. You then moved the stick to the new gear and when you released the stick - thus removing any force on the stick, the vacuum system re-engaged the clutch. What an abomination that was!

Anyone who wants to race one of those in Improved Touring is more than welcome to it...

On edit: Oh, by the way, it was Sportomatic...

[callard]

And the guy who raced one in the early '70s didn't have a left leg. Worked pretty good for him.
But as Greg describes, there was a whole lotta monkey motion goin on there to accomplish a shift. :D

[Hoof Hearted]

How 'bout a TDI Scirocco... ...this is as close as I'll come.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=354

[Conover]

Here's an idea.

World Challenge Touring Car

Basically IT cars with turbos, with the exception of a few of the cars most of them are turbos.

They use a monitoring system to insure that no one is using too much boost. They just have a boost limit, no restrictors, well, as of 2011 there wont be restrictors. So anyway, maybe we could learn from what the SCCA is already doing.

This could lead to making room for some of the older WC cars to move into IT as they age out of WC. Almost fits perfectly they have to be newer than 7 years, we have to be older than 5.

Of course this is general FI, doesn't really address the diesel thing, but. . .


I can't take suggestions of building a spec diesel class seriously, for one, that would be kinda boring. Part of my motivation for wanting to see diesels included in IT is to enjoy watching how they compare and compete with existing IT cars. Now if it was a diesel miata that would be entirely different. :blink:

[Ralf]

One thing that would definetly need to addressed is the excessive smoke from the tailpipe. I know that in stock form, VW TDI's don't smoke but what happens when some mods are done? I know I gag when following a diesel truck/bus and drive through their cloud. And if you don't think that would be possible, check out the pics here (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4877674-TDI-Owners-Unite!!!&p=65957530&viewfull=1#post65957530).

[Greg Amy]

I know that in stock form, VW TDI's don't smoke but what happens when some mods are done?
The TDI Cup cars do not smoke at all.

[pfcs]

"...and it was horrid. It was a regular standard transmission and clutch, but with a torque converter, too. It used sensors to detect when the stickshift had any force placed on it; when that happened it used a vacuum solenoid to disengage the stock clutch. You then moved the stick to the new gear and when you released the stick - thus removing any force on the stick, the vacuum system re-engaged the clutch. What an abomination that was!
Anyone who wants to race one of those in Improved Touring is more than welcome to it...
On edit: Oh, by the way, it was Sportomatic..."

......And the VW system was virtually identical, called "automatic stickshift".
It was available starting in 68 in beetles and Ghias. Type IIIs had a 3 speed full automatic. Auto-sticks used a 4 speed manual gearset without first because of the torque multiplication of the....you guessed it! Torque convertor.

I wouldn't been very much interested if it hadn't been autostick components that made my hand controlled A2 so viable on street and racetrack. That setup used the Beetle shift-base microswitch, vacuum servo and vacuum modulator to allow hand-only clutch operation that controlled clutch release rate according to airflow (ie: load).
It worked great, however speed-shifiting was impossible; fast shifts were easy, but in that it always fully released the clutch, they weren't anywhere as quick as when I used my feet.
Before I built the Golf, I looked at the Toyota. At that time it wasn't classified, but I was promised that if I really was interested, it could be.
That system is very similar in function to what I built-it's fairly normal clutch is controlled by a servo controlled by digital processors, and speed shifting or very quick shifting just doesn't happen. I believe Fitchel & Sachs developed it, the people who made half of the European clutches in the past 40 years.
I embellished on the system, adding 2 wiper-motors with uni-direction coaxial links on the bell cranks that would ground the vacuum solenoid (de-clutch) as the stroke of the wiper-crank would move the shifter from 5-4 or 4-3 when a button on the hand-control (&brake handle) was pushed.
I don't know if anyone noticed that a guy with no legs was able to left-foot brake and never miss the shift because he was declutching too!

[Ralf]

The TDI Cup cars do not smoke at all.

That's true but if you look at the picture in the link or watch some TDI Youtube videos, some of them are modified to the point of smoking a lot. I'm sure those are the extremes, but I also don't know how much they are modified.

[Greg Amy]

That's true but if you look at the picture in the link or watch some TDI Youtube videos, some of them are modified to the point of smoking a lot. I'm sure those are the extremes, but I also don't know how much they are modified.
I suspect you're talking "TDI cars" in general, not "TDI CUP" race cars (plus, the Cup cars run on biodiesel exclusively).

Diesels can be modified to smoke a lot - you usually see a lot of smoke on highly-modified cars - but it's a waste of energy and fuel. And, without getting into a lot of technical discussions, a lot of smoke is an indication of potential long-term damage (you'll get high EGTs and start melting stuff).

But yes, your point is noted: diesels in general can be modified to smoke a lot, which would be annoying on track. But I've been behind poorly-modified gasoline race cars that ran so terribly it made my eyes water; does it make it better that I can't see the annoyance coming at me...?)

If I could buy one of those TDI Cup cars I'd make it an exclusive enduro car, whatever class they'd let me run it in...

GA

[RacerBill]

If I could buy one of those TDI Cup cars I'd make it an exclusive enduro car, whatever class they'd let me run it in...

GA

:023:

The TDI Cup cars do the entire season on 2 (that's TWO, folks) tanks of fuel. So figure an hour and a half track time per race and a ten race reason, that comes out to something like 7 hours per tank!!!!!!!

BTW, you can purchase a street version of the TDI Cup cars, and in head to head tests they are less than a second a lap slower than the actual race cars. I'll try to look up the video where the test was performed to see what other differences and what track.

[Greg Amy]

The TDI Cup cars do the entire season on 2 (that's TWO, folks) tanks of fuel...
Well, to be accurate, they do all the RACES on two tanks of biodiesel. They use additional fuel for the practice and quallies. Regardless, it's a nice statistic.


BTW, you can purchase a street version of the TDI Cup cars...
Starting price, high $20k's, if you can find one. Then you get to add race prep to it on top of that...

[GTIspirit]

I wanna see a diesel like this in IT! :eclipsee_steering:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/26/video-well-you-dont-see-a-classic-diesel-mercedes-e-class-wag/

ROFL!

[tac911t]

The TDI Cup race cars are the "BRM" motor (2005/2006 model) 2 valve 1.9L 100hp/176tq with the DSG transmission.

The 2010 TDI Cup package cars are the common rail "CBEA/CJAA" motor 4 valve 2.0L 140hp/236tq with a choice of 6sp manual or the DSG. From what I have read (have not driven one, DD a 2005.5 TDI), all that torque makes for a great and fun driving car.
There has been numerous reports of the high pressure fuel pump failing and sending metal parts through the fuel injection system, requires replacement of the entire system $10K (yes $10K). These common rail motors require something like 26000 PSI
to run.

When I had my '72 911 with the mechanical fuel injection (Bosch diesel pump modified for gas), and it put out 360 PSI, I thought that was a lot.

[mossaidis]

I am confused...we talking about the street or track version? Track version is 170hp...

http://www.vwforum.com/forums/f11/incase-you-didnt-know-volkswagen-jetta-tdi-cup-car-specs-37381/

[Greg Amy]

Track version has an aftermarket ECU to increase power and improve the shifting of the DSG (and it has R8 rear brake in front and Michelin Cup race tires, as well as improved suspension). Not directly comparable to the street car.

Todd, we just bought a 2010 Jetta Sportwagen diesel for my wife. VERY fun car to drive, lots of good torque. I could see replacing my S4 with a Golf TDI. But now I'm getting worried about these HPFP failures...

GA

[tac911t]

I stand corrected. Thought the racing Cup cars were based on the 2005/2006 model cars since VW did not import TDI's in 2007/2008.

[tac911t]

Todd, we just bought a 2010 Jetta Sportwagen diesel for my wife. VERY fun car to drive, lots of good torque. I could see replacing my S4 with a Golf TDI. But now I'm getting worried about these HPFP failures...

GA

You probably know about http://forums.tdiclub.com/ I used this forum to repair my TDI (trans replacement, timing belt, and cam/lifter replacement). I have only had it on the road for about 4 weeks, love the mileage, miss the RPMS (4500 redline).
Looking forward to using it for the Runoff's road trip next week.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Starting price, high $20k's, if you can find one. Then you get to add race prep to it on top of that...

You have a link to that car or any more info? Sounds really cool. Might put up with constant CEL's for a rare and weird bird.

[Greg Amy]

The street car? Google "Jetta TDI Cup Edition". Neat car.

[Conover]

You probably know about http://forums.tdiclub.com/ I used this forum to repair my TDI (trans replacement, timing belt, and cam/lifter replacement). I have only had it on the road for about 4 weeks, love the mileage, miss the RPMS (4500 redline).
Looking forward to using it for the Runoff's road trip next week.

Damn! now the internet fixes cars too? What will they think of next? I hope the internet isn't working on race cars yet, or I'm gonna have to find myself a new job!! :p

I have a 2001 ALH, love it to death! 120 mile a day commute and I almost look forward to it. . .
:023:

[Andy Bettencourt]

The street car? Google "Jetta TDI Cup Edition". Neat car.

Nice.

http://www.vw.com/specialeditions/jettatdi/en/us/

[tac911t]

Damn! now the internet fixes cars too? What will they think of next? I hope the internet isn't working on race cars yet, or I'm gonna have to find myself a new job!! :p

I have a 2001 ALH, love it to death! 120 mile a day commute and I almost look forward to it. . .
:023:


The Internet also classifies cars, argues about washer bottles, and picks apart used race cars. :D