Qualifying Grid Order

[gran racing]

Having run a couple of MARRS races, I really like how they handle the grid for qualifying. None of this line up along the fence four sessions before yours crap. Especially for tracks such as LRP where these cars get in the way, why allow it? Regardless of when you get to grid, your starting number could be predetermined. It could be something as simple as a random order.

[Knestis]

I get the value of "random draw" but stop short of any system that "seeds" qualifying by points or whatever. That will be inherently biased toward those who are having success, locals over visitors, etc.. The perfect example is the 'fest where if you get behind in the first short qualifying session (been there, hated it), you are behind the 8-ball for the entire weekend.

K

[CRallo]

I get the value of "random draw" but stop short of any system that "seeds" qualifying by points or whatever. That will be inherently biased toward those who are having success, locals over visitors, etc.. The perfect example is the 'fest where if you get behind in the first short qualifying session (been there, hated it), you are behind the 8-ball for the entire weekend.

K

reverse points? :D

[joeg]

Must be a problem unique to LRP and Summit. I race at tracks where when its your time to go P&Q you proceed to the grid and its first come, first served.

Never any problems.

[jumbojimbo]

The problem I saw at IT Fest was cars who wanted to spend the first 5 minutes of the session warming tires lining up first and blocking the track for those of us who want to get an extra lap or two in before time runs out.

I won't make that mistake again. :eclipsee_steering:

[gran racing]

Well, I can't say that there are time I go out slow and encourage others behind me to do that as well. Once a gap is opened up, take advantage of not having traffic in front of us. One or two laps to warm the tires up, two hot laps, then that should be about all one needs if not caught up in traffic.

I did like going out in the lead ITB pack for qualifying and made things much easier in a large field. Large fields at LRP, quite a short track, takes a little more work to get clean laps.

[StephenB]

I have been in favor of this for a long time... LRP in my opinion is a safety concern for the club because of the traffic jams near grid! Safety vehicle's already have a hard time getting through. I have suggested for quite a while that the first session of the weekend is based on entry list then every session after that is done by the previous sessions time... (this is how the national runnoffs are done). The argument I get is that some people still mail in entries and it wouldn't be fair to them...

That's my idea for ya!
Stephen

[Wreckerboy]

I get the value of "random draw" but stop short of any system that "seeds" qualifying by points or whatever. That will be inherently biased toward those who are having success, locals over visitors, etc.. The perfect example is the 'fest where if you get behind in the first short qualifying session (been there, hated it), you are behind the 8-ball for the entire weekend.

K

You're right Kirk, the system does give an advantage to the locals and the sucessful.

That being said, when I started racing there last year I was initially gridded in the P45 - P53 range. I wasn't successful and I was not a local. It took effort and racecraft to work my way up towards the pointy end of the field (as if being stuck in the middle of a SSM field is not incentive enough to improve). I recognized early on that getting a single flyer in the Saturday AM qulifying session made a huge difference in the weekend, and failing that, abandoning the Saturday PM race to get one became key.

[Knestis]

...which is all well and good if the primary concern defines "success" in terms of season points. For some folks, "success" is determined by individual race success. I guess my point is that policy decisions by the Region are not philosophy-free, and that such decisions must be made recognizing that reality.

K

[MMiskoe]

Grid by car number, but you won't know until you get there if the grid workers flipped the coin to go in order or reverse order, and by then its a wee bit too late to do anything about it.

[lateapex911]

Then those with 50 for a car number are always screwed.
And, eventually, only newbies will have any number but 1 or 99...
Not that teh current system is "fair"...the number of cars I see lined up with "crews" babysitting them is humorous. Esp when the crew on car #1 goes to the bathroom and THAT's when they open grid. So much for the fist car out, LOL.

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

At the MARRS races, they line up cars by season points. It's not the best for people coming from out of towm, but it makes sense. That way, it isn't a clusterbang of the fast guys in the middle scrambling up, or slowing down to get a clean lap. For the out of town-ers that start at back, it's an opportunity to give some space, lay down 1 or 2 fast laps, then start passing people to learn how the peope on track handle being passed by faster cars, and get used to running with everybody. Once fast out of town guys start getting points, it becomes tough b/c they start in the middle all around slower people, not the greatest situation for Qual, but their fast lap in Sat Race overrides their Sat Qual lap if the race lap is faster.


I've never had a problem with it, but I'm a regular.
Steven

[Gregg]

Actually, Steve, it's up to the MARRS drivers reps to determine the grid order for the 1st qualifying session. Some run groups go by points, some go by finishing order from the previous race, some go by random draw. It can also vary from weekend to weekend. And since most run groups encompass multiple classes, you will find that sometimes those classes are intertwined and sometimes they're not.

I can tell you that your run group has not gone by where you stand in the MARRS points race since I have been drivers rep.

In the case of this weekend, when many of the groups were over 40 cars and the 1st cars off the grid were coming onto the front straight while cars were still leaving the grid, I don't know how much of an advantage anyone really had.

[RSTPerformance]

I like the idea of having the order based on registrations recieved order. It will help the event organizers plan by people not waiting until the last minute to register.

Raymond

[lateapex911]

. For the out of town-ers that start at back, it's an opportunity to give some space, lay down 1 or 2 fast laps, then start passing people to learn how the peope on track handle being passed by faster cars, and get used to running with everybody.
Steven

I think passing people would be getting in the way...Last year at Summit I tried to get a couple clean laps right off the grid by hanging back, then tried to ease through traffic while not getting in anyones way, and when I got a clear spot, I threw a couple of fast ones down and was done. If I had been a regular, I think it would have been two and done....

[JLawton]

I'm one of those that likes to get to grid early. I feel it's important especially at short tracks like LRP and NHMS to be one of the first ones out there. I would rather take a few extra minutes on the first 2/3 of the first lap and then go for it. It makes no sense to me to go into the second lap when your tires arent heated up. It's a wasted lap.

I also feel if you can keep the slow on the first lap, it gives all the cars a chance to get out of the pits before the first cars are coming by. I think it spreads the cars out better than everyone going out "full" speed from the first turn.

The first time I went to the ARRC the lead cars went very slow and did LOTS of weaving to keep everyone in line. I was like "WTF!!!???" But now I understand.

[Wreckerboy]

In the case of this weekend, when many of the groups were over 40 cars and the 1st cars off the grid were coming onto the front straight while cars were still leaving the grid, I don't know how much of an advantage anyone really had.

It was a cluster in SSM on Saturday morning with nearly 50 cars on track. Standard procedure is for the leader to take a very slow out lap to the esses and then pick up the pace. The pack is supposed to stay together tightly, with no gaps. This is supposed to allow for the grid to empty and for at least one or two laps before the front of the pack starts catching lappers. It's worked well for the two seasons I've been racing there.

What happened was that a large number of cars hung around outside of False Grid prior to the session and did not enter the grid until well after the leaders left. The lead/pace car followed procedure, and we (I was gridded 10th or so) came around T10 to find cars still leaving the False Grid and other cars further along on a green track moving at reduced pace. Furthermore, in the middle of the pack many cars were leaving large gaps, thus further stringing out the grid. The resulting clusterfuck of fast cars following procedure resulted in carnage with several cars hurt.

In our driver's meeting we (again) reviewed the proper way to handle things and that did not repeat for the rest of the weekend. The Supps cover SM/SSM qualifying, but perhaps not in the detail required. I *think* that much of the problem could have been avoided if there was some way of communicating what regular procedure is supposed to be to the people who do not run there regularly.

[gran racing]

in the middle of the pack many cars were leaving large gaps, thus further stringing out the grid.

Rob, if I were leaving grid and there might be some slower cars in front of me, I'd absolutely create a gap between me and the next car. If faster cars came up, I'd get out of their way. What you're saying works great for the cars up front but not so much for the cars that went out mid pack.

I think it gets pretty stupid when people are allowed to line up so early, often get in the way in the paddock, and for those who perceive there to be an advantage of going out first - "unfairly" get it. How early should cars be allowed to line up?

On the way home from Summit Point, I dropped my car off right next to the grid entrance to be sure this time I'm first in line for the race in a few weeks. :p

[John Nesbitt]

I think it gets pretty stupid when people are allowed to line up so early, often get in the way in the paddock, and for those who perceive there to be an advantage of going out first - "unfairly" get it. How early should cars be allowed to line up?



Wearing my steward hat, I am agnostic on the method used to pre-assign qualifying grid positions. Whatever method you choose, someone will likely feel disadvantaged.

However, most any method of pre-assignment is better than the chaos which can be caused by pre-gridding in the roadway. I have seen cars unable to reach the grid for their session because the road is blocked by cars pre-gridding for the next session.

[jumbojimbo]

...snip...The first time I went to the ARRC the lead cars went very slow and did LOTS of weaving to keep everyone in line. I was like "WTF!!!???" But now I understand.

I hope you don't think they did it out of the goodness of their heart to make sure everyone got a maximum number of good clean laps. They did it to maximize their own clean laps.

This is just like split race starts, everyone worries about the effect on the 3 fastest cars in the 1 fastest class. I'm just not interested in trading in one of my good laps just because someone else in a fast class thinks they deserve more clean laps than everyone else. Everyone deserves the same opportunity, not just the "leaders".

[Knestis]

I've seen it alluded to several times here and I'm intrigued about the idea of "going slowly to warm up the tires." I'll swerve around as much - or more - than the next guy on a controlled pace lap but NOTHING warms up the tires as quickly as driving around corners at full speed. Someone tells me that they are going slow on the first lap so they can go faster on a later one, I'm calling some BS on that. There's SOMEthing else going on.

K

[ShelbyRacer]

Just askin' the question-

Could someone further back on the grid make a case for "blocking" in that situation? It may not at first seem like a popular idea, but if it really is an issue at some tracks, then would that be a route to resolution?

[gran racing]

Someone tells me that they are going slow on the first lap so they can go faster on a later one, I'm calling some BS on that. There's SOMEthing else going on.


You've lost me. If I'm one of the first cars going out, I absolutely am not going hard if it's a short track (aka Lime Rock or Summit). I won't block anyone behind me if they want to go ahead, but if a couple of the cars behind are on the same page, great.

[jjjanos]

Just askin' the question-

Could someone further back on the grid make a case for "blocking" in that situation? It may not at first seem like a popular idea, but if it really is an issue at some tracks, then would that be a route to resolution?


6.11.1.C. "....Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room."
Unless you start qualifying under a FCY, the track is GREEN. That means that if you are weaving side-to-side while another car is attempting to overtake, you are blocking and could be protested. Whether protesting tire scrubbing is a weiner protest or not is debatable.

On the out lap, I always make certain there isn't someone trying to get by me when warming my tires on the front straight. Not sure what one would gain in terms of tire warming beyond that point. Kirk is correct, the best way to warm up tires is to drive 'em.

[Eagle7]

Could someone further back on the grid make a case for "blocking" in that situation? It may not at first seem like a popular idea, but if it really is an issue at some tracks, then would that be a route to resolution?
There was a video on this site a few years ago of a crash at M-O when someone tried to get past a "tire warmer" on the back straight.

[joeg]

K is absolutely correct. The best way to warm up tires is to get going; the swerving does nada.

This has been discussed a number of times.

[Knestis]

You've lost me. If I'm one of the first cars going out, I absolutely am not going hard if it's a short track (aka Lime Rock or Summit). I won't block anyone behind me if they want to go ahead, but if a couple of the cars behind are on the same page, great.

You are, in essence, "laying back" in order to help assure clear track for a flyer. That's different than "I was going slow to warm up my tires."

K

[lateapex911]

If I'm forced to go slow, i certainly do whatever I can to warm the gear. That includes working the tires to get whatever heat in them I can. The result of that heat gained is not linear. 'Nuff said about that.

If I'm NOT forced to go slow, I won't. I might ADD some corners to the track, or axagerate the corners that are there, but i'll do it at a faster pace.

Jeff, I never knew about that method at the ARRC. When I was first on grid for qualifying, I knew I was in the slower class of the group (ITA, IT7), and would be in the top ten overall if i was lucky. In other words, there were ten guys behind me that were faster. Needing only one or two laps, i decided my out lap was going to be brisk, and I hoped for the best. My out lap and two fliers was all I needed, and i pulled in after 4 laps with the next guy barely visible in my mirror.
Atlanta is a long track, (relatively, 2.5 mi?) and groups at the ARRC aren't typically that large. (25+-) Further, the guys there usually are pretty sharp, so it's not unusual for you to see guys doing a couple fliers and calling it done if they like their time. So the whole 'group them tight" method makes little sense to me there, especially when you think that they aren't lined up according to practice times.

The problem is only acute when it's a short track like Lime Rock with fully subscribed groups of 35+, and lots of guys in it who will pound around at their full speed for the entire session. I can see a system being needed at Summit with the big groups there, and certainly at Lime Rock.

What about a random draw? First Q session, you pull in to grid, and you pull a grid spot out of a hat? Grid has a hat with all the grid numbers written on poker chips in it, not too tough,,, and at every LRP race I've been to, there have been PLENTY of grid people, so staffing shouldn't be too tough. I bet they'd have fun with it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I do the same thing as Jeff. It's funny because he and I actually 'race' to grid. I like to be first, do a quick 4-5 laps, lay down a time and get off the track. About that time, we start dealing with traffic and getting a flyer is pure luck.

If I don't get to grid first, I tell the people in front of me that I am coming through so watch your mirrors. I WILL get to the front in the first 1/4 track.

When I am at the front, I try and hold up the pack SOME, until the last corner in order to let the whole field get out there and minimize lappers while qualifying. If I get to grid mid-pack, I go right to the last spot and hang back letting the gap get huge. I go when I see the front of the pack coming up on me.

My goal is always 3 consecutive clear laps, no matter how I get them.

[Eagle7]

K is absolutely correct. The best way to warm up tires is to get going; the swerving does nada.
I rarely clean my tires, so I ususally go out with lots of pickup (stones and rubber) from the last session. I've assumed that swerving is effective in cleaning tires. Anybody know for sure?

[gran racing]

Good for cleaning, not so good for warming them up.


What about a random draw? First Q session, you pull in to grid, and you pull a grid spot out of a hat? Grid has a hat with all the grid numbers written on poker chips in it, not too tough,,, and at every LRP race I've been to, there have been PLENTY of grid people, so staffing shouldn't be too tough. I bet they'd have fun with it.

I think that is a fantastic idea!!! I sure bet workers would have fun with it too.

[Knestis]

I do the same thing as Jeff. It's funny because he and I actually 'race' to grid. I like to be first, do a quick 4-5 laps, lay down a time and get off the track. About that time, we start dealing with traffic and getting a flyer is pure luck.

If I don't get to grid first, I tell the people in front of me that I am coming through so watch your mirrors. I WILL get to the front in the first 1/4 track.

When I am at the front, I try and hold up the pack SOME, until the last corner in order to let the whole field get out there and minimize lappers while qualifying. If I get to grid mid-pack, I go right to the last spot and hang back letting the gap get huge. I go when I see the front of the pack coming up on me.

My goal is always 3 consecutive clear laps, no matter how I get them.

It strikes me that it's a good thing that you aren't out there with a couple more of YOU. You all would have some intractable conflicts.

:happy204:

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

It strikes me that it's a good thing that you aren't out there with a couple more of YOU. You all would have some intractable conflicts.

:happy204:

K

Which is TRUE! And I have been. At that point, it's first come first served. I have had guys try and pass me when I was up front...and if I thought they were going to drive away, I let them go. If I feel like they may hold me up, I take off and take my chances with traffic.

[JoshS]

I do the same thing as Jeff. It's funny because he and I actually 'race' to grid. I like to be first, do a quick 4-5 laps, lay down a time and get off the track. About that time, we start dealing with traffic and getting a flyer is pure luck.

If I don't get to grid first, I tell the people in front of me that I am coming through so watch your mirrors. I WILL get to the front in the first 1/4 track.

When I am at the front, I try and hold up the pack SOME, until the last corner in order to let the whole field get out there and minimize lappers while qualifying. If I get to grid mid-pack, I go right to the last spot and hang back letting the gap get huge. I go when I see the front of the pack coming up on me.

My goal is always 3 consecutive clear laps, no matter how I get them.

That's exactly what I do.

[lateapex911]

And both your cars are typically the strongest of the groups you typically run with. Coincidence? I think not. ;)

[JLawton]

I've seen it alluded to several times here and I'm intrigued about the idea of "going slowly to warm up the tires." I'll swerve around as much - or more - than the next guy on a controlled pace lap but NOTHING warms up the tires as quickly as driving around corners at full speed. Someone tells me that they are going slow on the first lap so they can go faster on a later one, I'm calling some BS on that. There's SOMEthing else going on.

K

You haven't seen me warm up my tires. It is very difficult for me to get mine warm and I get to the point of sliding the rear end around (which I don't dare do at a faster speed) That and a combination of lots of brake. Does it also help me for the first few laps to avoid traffic. Yup. Just icing on the cake!! :D I don't block people if they want to get by. Does it give me an advantage? You bet!! Why wouldn't I take advantage of it??? :shrug:



And I may get to grid early but I have NEVER been in the way.



Just askin' the question-

Could someone further back on the grid make a case for "blocking" in that situation? It may not at first seem like a popular idea, but if it really is an issue at some tracks, then would that be a route to resolution?

Ah yes. The infamous Cefelo/Foley incident............ That was a shit storm!!